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Ok, so a certain AP has a certain critters tactics written to cast Lightning Bolt while underwater. Seems that the electricity would harm everyone in the vicinity, whether they were targeted or not. I know this is going to become a bone of contention with the players, so I'm reaching out for clarity and rulings. Thoughts?
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The Pathfinder world is not the real world.
Magical "lightning" is not the same as real world lightning.
How lightning actually acts in water is an extremely difficult thing to predict in the real world. There have been cases where lightning has hit open water and injured only a few of several people in the vicinity, seemingly zigging and zagging around other unharmed people.
It is best to stick to the rules as written and not try to do what physicists and meteorologists recognize as beyond their own abilities.
agree here. Certain laws of physics, kinetics etc etc just aren't going to apply here.
IF they want to argue science etc, then great, all the spell casters suddenly have no spells, all magic items suddenly are useless (including their ability to breath under water) and we will now use science rules....
I don't think that will fly.
It's a magic world, with different laws.
IIRC last time I read rules on lightening under water, it was like shooting a cross bow under water, damage and range were reduced...
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Or if you want, you can go old school AD+D and treat lightning bolts as fireballs modified to electric damage.
In 2nd edition DMG.. a story about a Fighter standing in water with some dragon with Electricity Breath Weapon took partial damage because of the water conducting the electricity..
In 3.0 edition, Lightning Bolts became Lighting Balls underwater (like a Fireball), but was removed in 3.5 edition...
I wonder how it was done back in 1st edition (before my time)
I specifically recall 1e mentioning under water spells in reference to a module dealing with sauhaughin , however you spell that.
The module had "mutant" baron in there with multiple arms, anyway, it discussed things like cross bow bolts and lightening bolts (and call lightening IIRC) and said they had half damage and half range... although i dont recall if the line turned into balls or effected everything, that may be the case, but i do remember there being altered spell rules for underwater.
We try to stay away from "water world" and Ive never had to use the rules in question (thank goodness)...IVe never liked underwater adventures.... something about underwater combat just does;t appeal to me...
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I've run a 3.5 campaign where a specific tactic in the game was to kill the enemy by connecting a being that was magically infused with lightning to the water he was floating above with the player's body - to electrocute both of them.
That's not specifically lightning bolt, but it is certainly magic lightning that is affected by water. You could argue that the campaign author was making up rules as he went along, but let's face it, Pathfinder and D&D don't mention that it's not affected by water.
Or if you want, you can go old school AD+D and treat lightning bolts as fireballs modified to electric damage.In 2nd edition DMG.. a story about a Fighter standing in water with some dragon with Electricity Breath Weapon took partial damage because of the water conducting the electricity..
In 3.0 edition, Lightning Bolts became Lighting Balls underwater (like a Fireball), but was removed in 3.5 edition...
I wonder how it was done back in 1st edition (before my time)
Well I can't say that I ever ran into the issue in the 20 some years of running 1E. Simply put casting under water wasn't allowed as you were unable to complete the verbal component. If you struck someone in the water with a lightning bolt generally they took double damage and everyone one else in the area would also be effected, but it wasoccurrenceccurance that more than one person was effected. I am sure other DM's handled it differently.
Well, a lightning bolt spell does not behave like lightning would in air. Normal lightning grounds itself in the nearest object (probably the spellcaster :p) For it to work, it has to make a magical channel with really low resistance along the line the bolt will travel. Think of the taser wires in this image. Since the resistance of the magical wires is much much lower than any surrounding air or water, the spell will faithfully deliver its deadly shock to its target in any environment.
According to the recently released Aquatic Adventures book, magical lightning spells are unaffected by water. However, they are invisible, and creatures that fail to identify an electricity spell that requires a ranged touch attack are flat-footed against the first such ranged touch attack during a fight.
:D
According to the recently released Aquatic Adventures book, magical lightning spells are unaffected by water. However, they are invisible, and creatures that fail to identify an electricity spell that requires a ranged touch attack are flat-footed against the first such ranged touch attack during a fight.
:D
That is a very bizarre, and IMO silly, rule. Why would being underwater make a difference here? Are ranged lighting attacks in air visible, but underwater they are not? If my sword is invisible and I swing it at you are you flat-footed the first time I do this since you cannot see the weapon? How about an invisible crossbow and bolt?
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The visible flash and audible sizzle of a lightning bolt are a consequence of electricity passing through air; there would be no reason for them to occur in water, even with magic that's keeping the electricity from dispersing. I first saw it in an electric eel exhibit at the Seattle Aquarium, but I looked it up to be sure the aquarium had their facts straight.
Yeah, it's clearly explained why they went that way in the book, but I didn't want to post everything verbatim. I still want you guys to have a reason to go out and buy the book.
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I would argue against that on a couple of levels.
Real World Perspective: The difference in time between seeing the visible flash/hearing the sizzle and when the lighting strikes is orders of magnitude smaller than reaction times of humans - even super enhanced humans like high level characters. (Although in counter I think you could argue instead that in air it is the feeling of the charge building up prior to release? I don't know if that happens underwater or not).
Game World Perspective: If I see a caster casting a spell (with manifestations) and I'm in combat against said caster, even if I can't identify what he is casting, if the caster even so much as waves his hand in my general direction I'm dodging to the side.
But you get to make the rules, not me, so... /shrug.
And I do appreciate you taking time to respond, even if I don't agree with the reasoning.
@RD, well hopefully there is more to the book than that, so I think if I ever do an aquatic adventure I'll still have plenty of reason to buy it. :)
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Yeah, characters in Pathfinder are pretty unnaturally dodgy, dodging bullets and even beams of light that would normally be moving at the speed of light. The electricity clar is based on the unseen weapon special quality (for invisible weapons), so your question of
If my sword is invisible and I swing it at you are you flat-footed the first time I do this since you cannot see the weapon? How about an invisible crossbow and bolt?is actually a very logical and good question to ask. Unseen says:
Upon command, an unseen weapon can be made invisible, including any scabbard, sheath, or similar accessory used to hold the weapon. A careful search will still reveal its presence, but purely visual examination will not. While invisible, an unseen weapon causes its wielder to take a –1 penalty on attack rolls unless she has the Blind-Fight feat or is able to see invisible objects. On the first attack made with an unseen weapon during a combat, the defender is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class unless it has the Blind-Fight feat, is able to see invisible objects, or is specifically aware that the wielder is using an unseen weapon.
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Ah, I don't own intrigue, so was not familiar with that enchantment. But it does set precedent then for the underwater lightning clause. Thanks.
Lightning has two stages. The first is a "lead" stage where a web of electrical leads spread outwards, seeking to form a connection with the ground. Once this happens, the second stage is a discharge. You can see it if you watch lightning in slow motion. Now, if the leads were occurring naturally we'd expect the lightning bolt spell to actually be a cone effect, but since it's a line I must conclude that the leads are magically controlled. As a result it shouldn't matter what the medium is; the magic of the spell will establish a controlled pathway for the discharge.
The reason being in water in a lightning storm is so dangerous is because water is a terrible conductor of electricity. This means that anything else inside of the water becomes a much easier pathway for those electrical leads to pass through, and is much more likely to find itself part of the main discharge. If the magic of a lightning bolt spell establishes the pathway, then this doesn't matter.
If the magic of a lightning bolt spell establishes the pathway, then this doesn't matter.
Well like fireball, and a lot of other area spells you can tell that the magic at least give "boundaries" to the spell, not only directing it but confining it's effect in a zone... :)
So logically Lightning should be effective in the same way underwater...Fire spells got rules for underwater casting... :)
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Now I'm thinking on electricity and how it damages the human(oid) body.
Assuming the damage from a lightning bolt spell is due to tissue damage and not heart failure, that implies a decent little bit of current. I'm not really going to consider voltage, because the actual voltage required to shock someone 120 feet away is ludicrous.
So we have a decent amperage, high voltage shock being delivered underwater. I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to say that the current passing through the water causes some amount of electrolysis to occur, making a line of bubbles between the caster and victim(s).
Of course, Aquatic Adventures disagrees with me, and that's fine ^__^
Now I'm thinking on electricity and how it damages the human(oid) body.
Assuming the damage from a lightning bolt spell is due to tissue damage and not heart failure, that implies a decent little bit of current. I'm not really going to consider voltage, because the actual voltage required to shock someone 120 feet away is ludicrous.
So we have a decent amperage, high voltage shock being delivered underwater. I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to say that the current passing through the water causes some amount of electrolysis to occur, making a line of bubbles between the caster and victim(s).Of course, Aquatic Adventures disagrees with me, and that's fine ^__^
You don't need a lot of Voltage... You need a lot of Amperage, it's the Amperage that determine the movement speed of the Electricity... ;)
And that is without even talking about electrical currents and other things...Electricity is far more complicated than it seems :p
Voltage is actually just a way of dealing with the reality of electromagnetic fields thats both mathematically simpler (you can use normal scalars instead of vectors) and instrumentally simpler (you can measure voltage directly with a voltmeter). If you know the voltage for every point in space in a room, you could do some work and map out the EM field in that room.
So anyways, amperage doesn't determine the movement speed of electrons, its the rate charges pass a certain point (coulomb's per second). Most precisely, its how many units of charge pass through a cross-section of space in 1 second. The cause of the charges moving in the first place is the EM field.
Its kind of like a car rolling down a hill. The rate the car's mass is rolling past a tree doesn't determine the cars speed (though you could use it to calculate it). What is really causing it is the gravitational field.
TL;DR I needed some nerd points for today.
The reason being in water in a lightning storm is so dangerous is because water is a terrible conductor of electricity.
That's true of pure water (like rain). Salt water, on the other hand, is a dandy conductor.
Actually even 100% pure H2O has some measure of conductivity (non-zero) because of the polar nature of the chemical bond twixt hydrogen and oxygen. Basically the oxygen wants hydrogen's electron more than hydrogen wants it, and it gets pulled towards the oxygen nucleus. This has the effect of giving the hydrogen side of the molecule a positive charge (since now there is less negative charge there) and the oxygen side a negative charge. In other words water molecules have a positive and negative end, like a magnet has a north and south end. The two charged ends allow someone to move the molecules by manipulating the fields in their vicinity (for example a microwave oven), just like you can move a magnet by putting another magnet nearby (changing the field). It also means electrons moving nearby will interact with the molecule (conduct), since like charges repel and opposite attract, and you could get some kind of trajectory change constituting a current. But yeah its weak comparatively.
Without this polar nature of water ionic solids (like salt) would not at all dissolve into their positive and negative ions.
Actually even 100% pure H2O has some measure of conductivity (non-zero) because of the polar nature of the chemical bond twixt hydrogen and oxygen. Basically the oxygen wants hydrogen's electron more than hydrogen wants it, and it gets pulled towards the oxygen nucleus. This has the effect of giving the hydrogen side of the molecule a positive charge (since now there is less negative charge there) and the oxygen side a negative charge. In other words water molecules have a positive and negative end, like a magnet has a north and south end. The two charged ends allow someone to move the molecules by manipulating the fields in their vicinity (for example a microwave oven), just like you can move a magnet by putting another magnet nearby (changing the field). It also means electrons moving nearby will interact with the molecule (conduct), since like charges repel and opposite attract, and you could get some kind of trajectory change constituting a current. But yeah its weak comparatively.
Without this polar nature of water ionic solids (like salt) would not at all dissolve into their positive and negative ions.
But it's true that lightning in water is invisible and since the Lightning is contained in the magical field it should not damage anyone outside the spell zone... :p
Because someone asked (and because I have my 1st Ed books handy):
Lightning bolt: underwater, this spell resembles a fireball as pertains to ates of effect. Instead of a stroke the electrical discharge takes the form of a 2" radius sphere (note: they used a different metric then) centering on the point where the stroke would originate were the spell vast above water. All those within the sphere will suffer the full effect (saving throw for half)