Soon I will be having a player take levels in the Red Mantis Assassin prestige class in my jade regent game, and I real want to know how to handle the classes key ability.
Prayer Attack (Su)
At 2nd level, a Red Mantis assassin learns her signature assassination style. To initiate a prayer attack, she holds her sawtooth sabre (or sabres) out, point down, and weaves the blade in the air. She must be within 30 feet of and visible to her victim. Beginning a prayer attack is a standard action, and causes her victim to be fascinated by her unless he makes a Will save (DC 10 + the Red Mantis assassin’s class level + her Charisma modifier—if she’s wielding two sawtooth sabres, this DC gains a +2 bonus). She can maintain the fascination effect by concentrating. The victim may attempt a new save to escape fascination each time a threat (other than the fascinating assassin) appears. At any point after 3 rounds, she may make a coup de grace attack against the target, provided the target is still fascinated. Activating or concentrating on maintaining a prayer attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
My question is given the rules for the condition of fascinated wouldn't the target get to keep making saving throws as there is an armed assassin in front of them? Below are the rules for the condition fascinated.
Fascinated
A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.
The victim may attempt a new save to escape fascination each time a threat (other than the fascinating assassin) appears.
I read that to mean the assassin isn't considered a threat by the creature he is fascinating.
Simple enough man the Red Mantis's ability spells it out. As long as the only person threatening the target is the assassin they only get the initial save assuming that the assassin keeps up the fascination. In other words the Red Mantis Assassin gets special rules when fascinating its target when using Prayer Attack.
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The victim may attempt a new save to escape fascination each time a threat (other than the fascinating assassin) appears.
The special ability, which involves waving the sabres in a hypnotic way, is what is doing the fascinating, ergo, as it specifically says in parentheses, the ability itself does not trigger a save against itself!
Ok got it. Now at the risk off getting belittled again, why does the Red Mantis Assassin get to have its target make 2 saving throws before killing them and the core Prestige class Assassin only force its target to make one.
Seems a bit unbalanced.
An assassins death attack fails if the target sees the assassin, or recognizes the assassin as a threat. So you'll have to make one or more skill checks before you can Death Attack the target.
The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked).
Red Mantis requires 2 saving throws. Core assassin requires 1 saving throw, and one or more skill checks (most likely Stealth, Bluff, or Disguise).
At best, I would figure it is because the assassin's death attack fails if the opponent recognizes them as an enemy. They would have to actually sneak up on the enemy and execute them, or otherwise, bluff the studying for a death strike to seem inconspicuous.
The Red Mantis Assassin has less of a limitation on that, once their target fails the first save. Also, a coup de grace can be pretty tough to beat, imo.
^ Ninja!
my thing is all things being equal the Red Mantis Assassin sets 2 different saves & the core Assassin only sets one.
here is my thoughts, say you have a Red Mantis Assassin and core Assassin. Both Human, both fighter 2/ Rogue 3 and the their assassin PRC's at lvl 2. With all their ability scores at 17 and all the same feats. This is how I see the saves break down.
Red Mantis Assassin
Start Prayer attack..will save DC= 17, 3 rounds later coup de grace attack...fort save DC= 10+dmg dealt(1d8+3+2+3d6)(Avg dmg= 18)
core Assassin
After 3 round of study...Death Attack...fort save DC=15
It is with that line of thinking that I think the 2 classes seem unbalanced
The coup de grace is a CRIT, meaning it's, using your numbers, 2d8+6+4+3d6 for an average DC of 39.5 assuming both bonuses are multiplied. That's nasty! Now, this is somewhat curved by the mandatory use of the sawtooth saber. While it's a nice weapon, is not the best for a rogue because it can't be weapon finessed, so strength is needed. Add that on to charisma based save DCs and spell casting and you've got very MAD character.