A rant about my Friends decision and the MMO.


Pathfinder Online

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Wasn't sure if this were to go in General Discussion of the PFO forum.

Disclaimer: I myself am looking forward to the MMO and hope it takes off.

Ok, where to start. One of my friends has elected to stop playing Pathfinder and sell all his books. Now this wouldn't be a problem as part of the reason he is selling his books is so he can pay the bills, that wouldn't stop him from playing normally. However he has said the entire Pathfinder experience has been ruined for him because of the induction of the MMO.

This to me is an incredibly stupid reason to stop playing, he isn't being forced to play, it won't be imperative to the TTRPG to play the MMO to get benefits (Kickstarter PFS awards notwithstanding), and as far as I am aware the 2 won't share lore beyond a certain point.

Am I right assuming that my friends decision to stop playing the TTRPG because of the induction of an MMO is silly.

TL;DR My friend has stopped playing the RPG because of the MMO, is he silly?

Goblin Squad Member

There will probably be others like your friend who feel the same way. I think there will be many more that will do quite the opposite, and once they see the success of PFO they will try the tabletop version. I think this is one of the reasons why Paizo is so positive about this project. In the long run, I expect that this will help revitalize the tabletop industry. If you have the money, see if you can buy the books from your friend and hold on to them until he changes his mind. He might not, but if he does and the books are available at the same price he sold them for, I expect that he'll be quite thankful.

Goblin Squad Member

Mildest rant ever, anyone?

A Ninja - if that is your real name - I can't determine from this post why he thinks what he does. Have you asked him? Most of what you've said is that he now dislikes Pathfinder because of the MMO that is based in the main setting of Pathfinder. I can see dozens of reason why someone might conclude this (though I don't agree with any of them). I'd gladly give better and more functional advice if I could, just let me know what he says about the specifics on the matter.

Goblin Squad Member

Vendis wrote:
A Ninja - if that is your real name -

lawls

Goblin Squad Member

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That's kinda like... boyotting the star wars movies because you don't like The Old Republic... it doesn't make much sense.

Goblin Squad Member

It would be interesting to know what reasons your friend had for such a decision, but I really can't imagine any that aren't silly. The game is being produced by Goblinworks and while there will be a lot of cross-pollination between the companies (especially in the early days like now while getting it off the ground) I really don't believe that Paizo will let it interfere with the Pathfinder RPG proper.


Vendis wrote:

Mildest rant ever, anyone?

A Ninja - if that is your real name - I can't determine from this post why he thinks what he does. Have you asked him? Most of what you've said is that he now dislikes Pathfinder because of the MMO that is based in the main setting of Pathfinder. I can see dozens of reason why someone might conclude this (though I don't agree with any of them). I'd gladly give better and more functional advice if I could, just let me know what he says about the specifics on the matter.

I'm not one for ranting, the most I've been able to glean from him is that it's open PvP, thats the only reason he throws at me whenever I ask why he doesn;t like the idea. There are plenty of reasons to not like the idea of an MMO and most are pretty legitimate.

and no that's not my real name, just wishful thinking on my part.

Goblin Squad Member

Well you could Tell him the open pvp isn't really MUCH different to factional PVP... there's just more factions and more consequences for killing people.

Goblin Squad Member

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The one group of people I can see boycotting paizo are those that buy EVERYTHING. Pathfinder creates another source of storytelling, that they may not want to be a part of. And I wouldn't be supprised if most of these people don't want to be a part of the game because of open PvP. They are probably more interested in story telling, and want more of a pathfinder version of CoH or SWG, they will never enjoy a game where anyone can kill them at any time, even if there are harsh consequences for the killer, they don't want anyone to get a speck of enjoyment from their aggrivation, and they want conditions they can controll completely.

Goblin Squad Member

A Ninja wrote:

Wasn't sure if this were to go in General Discussion of the PFO forum.

Disclaimer: I myself am looking forward to the MMO and hope it takes off.

Ok, where to start. One of my friends has elected to stop playing Pathfinder and sell all his books. Now this wouldn't be a problem as part of the reason he is selling his books is so he can pay the bills, that wouldn't stop him from playing normally. However he has said the entire Pathfinder experience has been ruined for him because of the induction of the MMO.

This to me is an incredibly stupid reason to stop playing, he isn't being forced to play, it won't be imperative to the TTRPG to play the MMO to get benefits (Kickstarter PFS awards notwithstanding), and as far as I am aware the 2 won't share lore beyond a certain point.

Am I right assuming that my friends decision to stop playing the TTRPG because of the induction of an MMO is silly.

TL;DR My friend has stopped playing the RPG because of the MMO, is he silly?

My best inference, given the scant information I have about your friend, is that the MMO is is being used as scapegoat for whatever his real reasons might be. It sounds like a rationalization, that there is, or are, real reasons why he is either not recognizing something in himself, or he just does not wish to share something with you at this point in time.

This is not to say his motivations are bad or good, just that if the guy is intelligent and reasonable, and his rationale does not properly map to his stated cause, then there is something missing from the equation.

Were I to hazard a guess, and please recognize this is no more than a shot in the dark, is that he feels very conflicted about his financial straits and the present need to go to the extreme of selling off his sourcebooks at what is likely a horrendous loss of value in exchange for a fraction of what htey are worth at the same time that he sees so much sourcebook resources being given away as crowdforger awards that only require exactly what he doesn't have to invest.

I should think I would be rather upset in a similar situation, and might easily feel a need to blame the MMO for my problems because I would have enough burden to shoulder without piling on the anguish of losing my dreams.

My recommendation? Support your friend and be there for him when he comes to his senses and regrets his decision.

Goblin Squad Member

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These are hard times for many, and those of us able to donate should recognize our good fortune and have the largeness of heart to be compassionate.


Being wrote:
A Ninja wrote:

Wasn't sure if this were to go in General Discussion of the PFO forum.

Disclaimer: I myself am looking forward to the MMO and hope it takes off.

Ok, where to start. One of my friends has elected to stop playing Pathfinder and sell all his books. Now this wouldn't be a problem as part of the reason he is selling his books is so he can pay the bills, that wouldn't stop him from playing normally. However he has said the entire Pathfinder experience has been ruined for him because of the induction of the MMO.

This to me is an incredibly stupid reason to stop playing, he isn't being forced to play, it won't be imperative to the TTRPG to play the MMO to get benefits (Kickstarter PFS awards notwithstanding), and as far as I am aware the 2 won't share lore beyond a certain point.

Am I right assuming that my friends decision to stop playing the TTRPG because of the induction of an MMO is silly.

TL;DR My friend has stopped playing the RPG because of the MMO, is he silly?

My best inference, given the scant information I have about your friend, is that the MMO is is being used as scapegoat for whatever his real reasons might be. It sounds like a rationalization, that there is, or are, real reasons why he is either not recognizing something in himself, or he just does not wish to share something with you at this point in time.

This is not to say his motivations are bad or good, just that if the guy is intelligent and reasonable, and his rationale does not properly map to his stated cause, then there is something missing from the equation.

Were I to hazard a guess, and please recognize this is no more than a shot in the dark, is that he feels very conflicted about his financial straits and the present need to go to the extreme of selling off his sourcebooks at what is likely a horrendous loss of value in exchange for a fraction of what htey are worth at the same time that he sees so much sourcebook resources being given away as crowdforger awards that only require exactly...

You might be right Being. Impossible to be sure, but in a way I can see how he might feel this way. I too fall into this category, but choose to look at it in a different manner. Instead of lamenting on what I can't do (pledge more, get into Alpha), I prefer to focus on what I can do, pledge at the level that at least gets me into early enrollment and the opportunity to take part in making a game I've always sought, but never found :).

Grand Lodge

This seems kind of drastic. Now if the MMO starts dictating rules for the tabletop game, Paizo will lose a lot of players. (Think 4e). But it's too early to tell whether that will happen. The PFS boons as part of the Kickstarter have created a large negative reaction to the MMO from PFS players, so hopefully the powers that be don't make this mistake.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:

The one group of people I can see boycotting paizo are those that buy EVERYTHING. Pathfinder creates another source of storytelling, that they may not want to be a part of. And I wouldn't be supprised if most of these people don't want to be a part of the game because of open PvP. They are probably more interested in story telling, and want more of a pathfinder version of CoH or SWG, they will never enjoy a game where anyone can kill them at any time, even if there are harsh consequences for the killer, they don't want anyone to get a speck of enjoyment from their aggrivation, and they want conditions they can controll completely.

Yeah I guess that's it. I suppose there are those extreme lore fans that need to own absolutely everything and know everything about their fave setting/game world/movie franchise/book series. Maybe somebody who has put up a second mortgage to have EVERYTHING Pathfinder would be mad at this.

If that's really the case then OP's friend really should sell that stuff and you know, go outside.

Goblin Squad Member

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The Open PvP tag is hurting the game in my opinion. Those that don't like it will stop reading about the game as soon as they come to that.

Those that do like open pvp will keep reading only to discover that actually engaging in open pvp puts them at a huge disadvantage.

PfO may end up in a bad spot where neither pve or pvp give the game a chance.

As a community we should help get the word out that it is an open pvp game but you won't be getting ganked every 10 minutes.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Being wrote:

My best inference, given the scant information I have about your friend, is that the MMO is is being used as scapegoat for whatever his real reasons might be. It sounds like a rationalization, that there is, or are, real reasons why he is either not recognizing something in himself, or he just does not wish to share something with you at this point in time.

This is not to say his motivations are bad or good, just that if the guy is intelligent and reasonable, and his rationale does not properly map to his stated cause, then there is something missing from the equation.

Being generous, the above sounds about right. Not being generous, I would say he is being completely overly-dramatic, and has zero real evidence to back up his claim.

Goblin Squad Member

What works online doesn't work on a tabletop, and having heard no announcements that PFO will affect the Pathfinder TT world, I don't see why one would assume it will. Tell your friend Goblinworks is not Paizo, as they've pointed out repeatedly.

Goblin Squad Member

A Ninja, if you haven't yourself, then read over the blogs about PvP and how it'll work. Then either show them to him or explain them in simple terms. Also push that it's a sandbox MMO, instead of a theme-park MMO, as that's pretty essential for someone to shake off the "I don't like MMOs" feeling.

It is open world PvP, yes, but it won't be like any other game with open world PvP.

Your friend is entitled to his opinion, but you should try to make sure it's as educated as it can be.

Goblin Squad Member

Firstly TT and MMO of PF have completely different systems, simply due to TT being turn-based, while MMO is real time based. Thus on a game mechanics level, rules from PFO will NOT have any effort on the TT PF. Actually PFO will actually take it's inspiration from TT PF.

Thus logic to his reasoning to stop playing TT PF because of PFO being created is completely rubbish. Actually PFO is not the reason for him to stop playing TT PF, and he really does not want to tell the real truth of why he stopping to play TT PF. He did mention to you he is selling the PF source books to get funds. That is a big hint to the real reason to stop playing TT PF.

I would not pester him too much about why he is selling, as he has made the effort to hide the truth from you with rubbish logical reasoning as an excuse.

Goblin Squad Member

sieylianna wrote:
The PFS boons as part of the Kickstarter have created a large negative reaction to the MMO from PFS players,

plural? have I missed something?

All I see is a one use item, which may or may not have permanent effect with undetermined power level.

for 5$

and they feel bad blood?
are they all power gamers who feel they "need" to have this to survive the next session?

is the MMO going to be a further leg for Paizo to stand on?
in order to be able to provide their services in the future, in case things go bumpy?

if the answer to that is yes, maybe they need to think about who provides the organisation of their play and hopefully will be able to do so in the future on account of sound finances.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think PFO is meant to directly relate to the tt, I don't see it ever affecting the rules, only perhaps generating new content for river kingdoms.

In TT you play a band of heroes, in PFO you play a citizen of the river kingdoms essentially... You're different people, you're the captain of the guards, the merchant, the surveyor, the local priest, the innkeeper. There are heroes and mercenaries too of course, but the focus is a little different. I see it kind of as being the people that make up the world that on tt would be npc townsfolk and the like.

Goblin Squad Member

It seems likely this kind of reaction will happen from time to time. It's just swings and roundabouts, in my view.

No matter what economists need to hypothesise in order to craft their theories, we're not actually rational. Some people have cited the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines as being a reason they "stuck with Paizo" and bought Pathfinder (for example). Ultimately, that's not a terribly rational motivation either but why should we try and behave logically all the time?

Liberty's Edge

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I can relate to your 'friend'.

3 things I don't like about PFO and turn me right off from the game. The PvP, the Player Looting, The staggered release. These things have stopped me from supporting the development of the game.

Now the 'bad feelings' I get from these things I don't like, combined with people at me to 'change my mind' or telling me how 'silly' I am for feeling the way I do, telling me to 'go read' more about it(when I have read everything I can) or how 'angry' it makes them when I express my opinions and feelings on the game, kinda puts a big downer on the whole pathfinder experience, the TT and MMO and the rest.

Also the way the MMO is being marketed at the moment it feels like it is side by side with the TT. With the normal TT pathfinder newsletters spouting stuff about the MMO, and the MMO talking about the TT adventure books, the two separate things displayed over the same website and forums.. it is hard not to keep them separated in your mind.
If you feel disappointment of one it can shadow the other.

When somebody is not happy about something, try and show them some support, it can be a lonely feeling not liking how something is when all/most-of your friends (and the gaming community) don't mind it and are constantly telling you how 'silly' you are for not seeing it their way..

Maybe get a TT game happening with your 'friend' (if one is not happening atm that is), something simple and not to complicated, back to the basics of Pathfinder TT, just to reassure them how much fun the TT game really is, don't even bring up the MMO at all at the TT-game..
Keep them totally separated in real life and the good feelings he/she gets from that may just over-power the negative they have for the MMO and change their mind a little.. maybe..

Anyway, if they are really your 'friend' showing them some support and understanding, rather than telling them they are silly and trying to change their mind, will go a lot further...

But I can relate to your 'friend' and have similar feelings, and I have seen many others have the same feelings and opinions, so it is not an isolated case. A lot of people are getting frustrated, not only about the MMO but also about they way they are being treated because of the way they feel about the MMO...


Draxonfly wrote:

I can relate to your 'friend'.

3 things I don't like about PFO and turn me right off from the game. The PvP, the Player Looting, The staggered release. These things have stopped me from supporting the development of the game.

Now the 'bad feelings' I get from these things I don't like, combined with people at me to 'change my mind' or telling me how 'silly' I am for feeling the way I do, telling me to 'go read' more about it(when I have read everything I can) or how 'angry' it makes them when I express my opinions and feelings on the game, kinda puts a big downer on the whole pathfinder experience, the TT and MMO and the rest.

Also the way the MMO is being marketed at the moment it feels like it is side by side with the TT. With the normal TT pathfinder newsletters spouting stuff about the MMO, and the MMO talking about the TT adventure books, the two separate things displayed over the same website and forums.. it is hard not to keep them separated in your mind.
If you feel disappointment of one it can shadow the other.

When somebody is not happy about something, try and show them some support, it can be a lonely feeling not liking how something is when all/most-of your friends (and the gaming community) don't mind it and are constantly telling you how 'silly' you are for not seeing it their way..

Maybe get a TT game happening with your 'friend' (if one is not happening altm that is), something simple and not to complicated, back to the basics of Pathfinder TT, just to reassure them how much fun the TT game really is, don't even bring up the MMO at all at the TT-game..
Keep them totally separated in real life and the good feelings he/she gets from that may just over-power the negative they have for the MMO and change their mind a little.. maybe..

Anyway, if they are really your 'friend' showing them some support and understanding, rather than telling them they are silly and trying to change their mind, will go a lot further...

But I can relate to your 'friend' and have similar...

You've got to have a thick skin if your going to disagree with ideas that the designers state are integral parts of the game. I try not to belittle people, but not everyone feels that way.

Goblin Squad Member

It's fine to disagree with the game being made by goblin works, not like it and not support it, but why would you let that influence the rest of your enjoyment of the franchise?
Just because I don't like nwn 2 doesn't mean I'll boycott all DnD.

Just because I hate WoW doesn't mean I don't like Starcraft 2 or diablo 3. The silliness is boycotting an entire brand because you don't like an independent product. PFO is not the tt game any more than nwn2 replaces tt DnD.

Would you not buy your favorite brand of chocolate because they also produce a flavours you don't like?

Goblin Squad Member

Draxonfly wrote:

...

When somebody is not happy about something, try and show them some support, it can be a lonely feeling not liking how something is when all/most-of your friends (and the gaming community) don't mind it and are constantly telling you how 'silly' you are for not seeing it their way..
...

I am unsure how you see it working out if we did as you suggest. To support you in your dislike for what we are enthusiastic about would be rather odd. Psychologically interesting and odd. I'm not sure if you are thinking we should apologise for your not liking it? That doesn't seem appropriate at all.

So what else are we to do but try and show you what it is we see that we like? Yet when we did you interpreted it into our trying to change your mind for you.

Also unsure what you expected posting your dislike in a forum dedicated to the MMO interpretation of the TT Pathfinder. Clearly you either did not find what you expected or you found what you did expect. If you expected to find us all morose and ugly about the game, well, I cannot say I am sorry you were disappointed. But if you came in here expecting to find what you did, then you have no rightful complaint, have you.

Okay so I support your right to dislike something, but you look rather trollish proclaiming it so.

Goblin Squad Member

I thought I would put my neck out in here, just to see if anyone has axes to grind. First, of all. I am a little cautious about open PVP, but I've experienced Arena PVP and found them to be enjoyable when there is a well-balanced mechanics. With the alignment shift, bounties, and other systems put into effect to prevent people from abusing open PVP, I will have to wait and see if I like it or not. I do not KNOW if I will like it; I am neither for it nor against it, but I am willing to experience it at least once before I make a judgment call.

As to player looting. While it may feel like like a very personal invasion to be looted, once again I think we have to realize #1) it's a game, #2) it's not like its completely destroyed, you'll probably have a way to get it back again, and #3) it can probably be remade or repurchased. There are ways to get involved in the game mechanics, the community economy, without ever leaving the safe starter areas. (I probably will not be a community hugger with my main character).

The Staggered Release makes sense to me. It allows a gradual organic build up of the online communities: Kingdoms, companies, etc, without having the chaos and confusion of a Land Rush (a la Far and Away).

Goblin Squad Member

Wait, I'm confused. What is stopping anyone from backstabbing anyone else in the tabletop version? What about NPCs? Are they able to take everything from you (full loot)?

As others have said, and what does what happens in/with the MMO have to do with the tabletop version?


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Just look at the replies of half of this thread. No wonder your friend is all down on the whole pathfinder world.

I have seen it at my local gaming group, a couple of people saying they don't like what they are doing with the Pathfinder MMO, and they get told off and others try to force them to change their mind or tell them how stupid they are for thinking such things by all the snobby elitists.

If these are the type of players that the MMO is wanting and the type that have been playing the table top, then I don't think I want to be part of the world any more myself.

So no, I don't think it is silly, and I think I'll join your friend and just forget about the whole pathfinder universe. There are many more great games and systems out there, with a much friendlier bunch of people.

Goblin Squad Member

I think it's a little unfair to allow the attitude of posters here aggressively defending the Pathfinder MMO to put you off the Pathfinder RPG. Though I understand how it would be rather more off-putting if you're encountering that sort of attitude in your real life gaming group too.

That said I've been a bit put off by the attitude that some of the people here have to any criticism of the game, or comments from people on what would make the game more appealing to them. But that has just left me wavering as to whether to back the Kickstarter or not, still a big fan of the RPG. :)

Goblin Squad Member

TinyTrish wrote:
Just look at the replies of half of this thread. No wonder your friend is all down on the whole pathfinder world.

Really? Which half of the replies have been aggressive or antagonistic?

I still don't see how a MMO game that is at least two years away from development is forcing people away from the TT game. If people try to 'force' you or tell you that you're stupid, tell them to get stuffed and walk away. It's a bit passive aggressive to ditch PF over it though.

Goblin Squad Member

Emotions tend to run higher than rationality or interest in fact... which is odd, particularly when the thing they're so concerned about turns out not to be factually accurate in the first place.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Jameow wrote:
That's kinda like... boyotting the star wars movies because you don't like The Old Republic... it doesn't make much sense.

I'd think it's more like boycotting Marvel comics because you don't like the Spider Man movies. Or boycotting the original trillogy because you don't like Star Wars: Legacy.

I can't fund any kickstarters right now, but do hope the MMO succeeds. If no other reason, maybe so in a few years I won't have to say "Yeah, Pathfinder's like D&D, but better."

I want to have this conversation with kids.

"So what are you playing?"
"D&D next! It's like Pathfinder, but different."

Goblin Squad Member

TinyTrish wrote:


So no, I don't think it is silly, and I think I'll join your friend and just forget about the whole pathfinder universe. There are many more great games and systems out there, with a much friendlier bunch of people.

I think your perception of the PFO community "friendliness" is way off base. Most of the people I've interacted with here, even if we disagree, have been very friendly, respectful, and helpful. Even if they weren't, everyone's experience will vary based on who they deal with. You're painting with a very wide brush here, and doing a disservice to the community.

Goblin Squad Member

I have one word for your friends excuse for leaving Pathfinder PNP... Copout.

He is looking for an out and is using whatever excuse he can find to do so.

Valinar

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

I for one will never ever play the MMo and I have two regular TT games, that said I hope the MMo gets funded becomes wildly successful and draws the Pathfinder name further into the mainstream. I think the exposure could only help. I am one of those people who has everything for the TT and will continue to be. I don't see how the MMO would change that. I simply won't buy anything I can't use for my game. I think your friend is maybe frustrated with the amount of attention the MMo is getting on the forums, message boards, Paizo home page, ect... I can sort of sympathize I do wish we could get back to covering the TT stuff on this site. Goblinworks needs it's own page, message boards and the like where talking about your table top game would be out of place, but i expect given time that is exactly what will happen so stick it out the Kickstart ends soon and things will get back to more normal.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mine all mine...don't touch wrote:
.....

Mine basically nails my thoughts exactly. I'm not supporting the Kickstarter and I didn't support the last one because, well, I don't care about MMOs (Pathfinder or otherwise). It doesn't have anything at all to do with my home group and our tabletop game though.

-Skeld

Goblin Squad Member

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Mine and Skeld understood! I think the PNP are benefiting the new content for their tabletops while the rest of us that like MMOs are benefiting getting a kick-butt game!

Valinar


Mine all mine...don't touch wrote:
I for one will never ever play the MMo and I have two regular TT games, that said I hope the MMo gets funded becomes wildly successful and draws the Pathfinder name further into the mainstream. I think the exposure could only help. I am one of those people who has everything for the TT and will continue to be. I don't see how the MMO would change that. I simply won't buy anything I can't use for my game. I think your friend is maybe frustrated with the amount of attention the MMo is getting on the forums, message boards, Paizo home page, ect... I can sort of sympathize I do wish we could get back to covering the TT stuff on this site. Goblinworks needs it's own page, message boards and the like where talking about your table top game would be out of place, but i expect given time that is exactly what will happen so stick it out the Kickstart ends soon and things will get back to more normal.

or people could just avoid the stuff they don't like on the forums and everyone could strive to keep topics on track. i know..i am asking a lot.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

@ valinar
Exactly, I know what I'm getting with my pledge, I'm happy and hopefully you MMO guys get what you want! Good luck to both camps this week, only 375,000$ to go.

Grand Lodge

Jiminy wrote:
TinyTrish wrote:
Just look at the replies of half of this thread. No wonder your friend is all down on the whole pathfinder world.

Really? Which half of the replies have been aggressive or antagonistic?

.

Exhibit A: the two posts following yours...

Goblin Squad Member

Michael Dean wrote:
Jiminy wrote:
TinyTrish wrote:
Just look at the replies of half of this thread. No wonder your friend is all down on the whole pathfinder world.

Really? Which half of the replies have been aggressive or antagonistic?

.

Exhibit A: the two posts following yours...

I'm sure Jiminy can see the future but chose not to :)

Goblin Squad Member

Michael Dean wrote:
Exhibit A: the two posts following yours...

That's more like one tenth, than half.

Grand Lodge

Tyveil wrote:
Michael Dean wrote:
Jiminy wrote:
TinyTrish wrote:
Just look at the replies of half of this thread. No wonder your friend is all down on the whole pathfinder world.

Really? Which half of the replies have been aggressive or antagonistic?

.

Exhibit A: the two posts following yours...

I'm sure Jiminy can see the future but chose not to :)

I couldn't resist the irony of Jiminy's post looking for the hostility in the thread and the two following posts. I mean, he had to have seen Jiminy's post, right?

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