Sorcerer Feat and Archetype Selection Advice


Advice


I am making a level 6 Sorcerer, which will probably be human. I definitely want a Faerie Dragon as a familiar, and my DM is letting me get him a level earlier, albiet with temporarily diminished abilities.

I know everyone is against Crossblooded, but at the moment it seems to be the best choice. I am planning on getting Fey and either Arcane or Serpent. Here is my current feat selection

These are assuming I choose Arcane and Fey
Feats: (1) Defiant Luck, [Human] Inexplicable Luck (3) Bestow Luck, (5) Improved Familiar (Faerie Dragon), (7) Greater Spell Focus, [Bonus] Spell Focus (Enchantment), (9) Widen Spell, (11) Heighten Spell, (13) Spell Penetration, [Bonus] Quicken Spell, (15) Spell Perfection (Confusion), (17) Spell Perfection (Hold Person), (19) [Bonus] Silent Spell

Here is the spells so far
0: Ghost Sound, Caltrops, Drench, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Scoop, Spark, Light, Mending, Mage Hand, Disrupt Undead
1: (Free) Entangle, Silent Image, Charm Person, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Vanish
2: (Free) Hideous Laughter, Web, Touch of Idiocy, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Pyrotechnics, Glitter Dust,
3: (Free) Dispel Magic, Haste, Hold Person, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion, Summon Monster
4: (Free) Poison, Dimension Door, Confusion, Enervation, Moonstruck, Black Tentacles
5: (Free) Tree Stride, Feeblemind, Cloud Kill, Dominate Person, Telekinesis
6: (Free) Mislead, Repulsion, Cloak of Dreams, Serenity
7: (Free) Greater Teleport, Mass Hold Person

and my stats
STR: 7 DEX: 14 CON: 15 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 20

I am planning on using my favored class to pick up extra spells each level. I may have too many or too few spells on certain levels.

Basically I am planning on very rarely using any damage spells. Charm, Dominate, Hideous Laughter, Confusion, and Web/Entangle are going to be the basic idea each round. My familiar will be wielding a wand and delivering touch spells while invisible when necessary.

I really like the Fey's laughing touch ability, as it seems like a fantastic lifeline. Also if I pick up a Sorerer's Robe, I think I will be able to use ranged. We will see what the DM has to say about that :-)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe- sorcerer-s

I have a few things that I do not like though. I do not expect to use metamagic often, I don't like increasing spell levels. If that is the case, then I am getting several feats and an bloodline arcane that I will rarely use. I am picking up the metamagic feats strictly for Spell Perfection. I have never played a Sorc before, however, and I may find myself using these feats far more often.

The human feats seem better designed for a fighter, and the ability to force my opponent to reroll a crit confirmation roll seems useless as I expect most monsters will be unable to miss me with my low AC. I am picking them up because adding 8 to my allies rolls seems fantastic, and game changing.

I have a few other ideas. Pick up Racial Heritage, Lucky Halfling and Well prepared. Instead of the human feats. Or Racial Heritage and Effortless Trickery for Silent Image. Maintaining Silent Image as a sift action, or rerolling an allies saving throw using my saves 1/day may be superior, and is cheaper feat wise.

Also if I went serpent and fey, I could pick up the magical knack trait which should remove the minus to my class level for my familiar. Also because a dragon is reptile like, I may be able to pick the Faerie Dragon. I am thinking raw would say no, but it could go either way. I like the class skill and bloodline arcana way better for Serpent, although I wouldn't use any of serpents feats.

Another solution would be to drop the crossblooded, an idea I really like. One way to do that would be to get the tatooed sorcerer archtype. I am not big on losing the 1st level power, though. I may pick up Eldritch Heritage just to get it back.

What does everyone think? I feel my feat selection is subpar at best, and I don't feel as I am using the crossblooded to it's full potential, as I am using 90% fey, and just one or two other abilities.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not going into a detailed analysis but I would point out a few things.

1) You cannot take Spell Perfection twice sadly.

2) For a class so reliant on save or suck spells you dont have Persistent Spell and you really should. You may not like using metamagic but it makes the character far more viable and keeps lower level spells usefull. A Persistent Confusion is far more likely to affect your enemy than a non metamagic Mass Hold Person. Its DC is 2 lower but forcing two rolls more than makes up for that.

3) I know you want to focus on enchantment but you really need some better way to affect undead, oozes, contructs etc.

4) You have no real hard battlefield control. I would recommend dropping Telekinesis for Wall of Force or Stone.

5) I would recommend picking up Dazing Spell and one or two direct damage, maybe Magic Missile and any reflex save spell. Removing enemy actions is highly effective and gives you things to do to undead etc.

6) Some of your spell selections are a bit ineffective. Summon Monster III doesnt do much at this level and Black Tentacles rapidly becomes irrelevant.

7) Crossblooded brings with it a major problem, fewer spells and delayed access to higher level spells. You wont be seeing level 2 spells until level 5, 3 at 7th etc. You will have slots to fill with metamagic versions but you will lag well behind prepared casters.


1) magical knack won't affect your familiar at all, it affects 'caster level' for things like spell scaling and concentration, not spellcaster class level which is what governs familiar abilities.

2) dragons are not reptiles. that said, if you have the familiar ability even if you can normally only choose a specific animal type, taking improved familiar just flat out expands your list, so you can choose from all it's options. or at least all the 'limited/no choice familiar' abilities i've seen are all fully compatable with the full list of improved familiars.

3) if you go crossblooded, being human helps alot with the favored class bonus, and you should also consider taking the extra arcana feat (or whatever it's called) that grants bonus spells known.

4) you didn't actually give any rationale for why you might go with tattooed sorceror, other than you CAN do so if you drop the crossblooded archetype. only thing i can think of off-hand is because you want the familiar, and tattooed lets you add it on top of any bloodline in exchange for the 1st bloodline power, without needing eldritch heritage:arcane? (that's a reason why I like it myself)

5) if you go with tattooed, replacing the 1st level bloodline power, you can't get that power back via eldritch heritage, because you can't take eldritch heritage for a bloodline you already have... you can take it for some other bloodline though, so there may be similar 1st level powers, or perhaps you could chooose another bloodline whose spells and arcana and higher level abilities you like, and gain the fey bloodline power via eldritch heritage? or if you dont' go with tattooed, you can gain a familiar at only -2 level adjustment via eldritch heritage:arcane.

6) a nice thing about tattooed archetype, or spell tattoos in general (along with other magical tattoos via the feat) is that activating them is automatically silent (and stilled with the caster tattoos... very nice when you're pinned/paralyzed, and the reservoir tattoo doesn't have a concentration check to re-activate the spell!), so you have less need for silent metamagic if for the corner cases you need it (in a silence spell area) you can rely on those methods (which cost gold, but seem worth it).

7) it seems like you don't really have a pressing need for all your feats. if you went half-elf instead, you could use the paragon surge spell, which lets you gain a feat spontaneously on the fly, which via expanded arcana lets you gain a spell known on the fly, so if you have a round or two to prep, you can have 'exactly the right spell' available to you when you need it. of course, you are also missing out on the human favored class (spells known of <top level spell), so that probably is not a good option if you really want to go crossblooded. i think that per RAW you can use it on your familiar too, to grant it a feat, although that seems dubious per intent.

8) i won't go into the details of the spells, but it seems like there's too much overlap in function, and you could have a broader range of effects. it's not necessary, but some damaging spells that also inflict certain conditions (or otherwise debilitate the targets irrespective of HPs) can be useful. don't think about each and every spell being useful to you all the way for each level, you can and should use spell re-learning (or whatever it's called) to swap them out to be most effective at each level, if a higher level spell would replace your usage of a lower level spell, then swap it out and learn something else at that lower spell level so you have more broadness and flexibility. and some spells can always be on scroll/wand, especially if DC or CL don't matter very much for them.

9) walls, solid fog, higher level summons (possibly with the feat giving you an extra creature) to create 'AoO walls' are all a good idea. if you get the metamagic that gives instant AoEs a duration, stuff like fireball can be useful for that too. slow can be great, you can instantly kite a group of enemies with ease. some means to fly would be good, but maybe you want to rely on gear for that. you have lots of options, and if you free up some feats, you can get even more via expanded arcana.

10) persistent metamagic is really powerful, but it's just too good for my taste, so if you don't think you need to go there, good for you. i think that utilizing some metamagic is a great idea, arcane bloodline's arcana makes it nice since you offset the lower spell level with a +1 DC, but even without that it's a good flexibility multiplier for any sorceror.

11) if you want to really focus on enchantments/mind-affecting spells, going with the undead or serpent(?) bloodlines, either normally, via crossblooded, or eldritch heritage, lets you affect a broader group of enemies with those same spells.


andreww wrote:
7) Crossblooded brings with it a major problem, fewer spells and delayed access to higher level spells. You wont be seeing level 2 spells until level 5, 3 at 7th etc. You will have slots to fill with metamagic versions but you will lag well behind prepared casters.

why would crossblooded delay access to spell levels? nothing in thedescription of the archetype mentions that. just less spells known per level.


asthyril wrote:
andreww wrote:
7) Crossblooded brings with it a major problem, fewer spells and delayed access to higher level spells. You wont be seeing level 2 spells until level 5, 3 at 7th etc. You will have slots to fill with metamagic versions but you will lag well behind prepared casters.
why would crossblooded delay access to spell levels? nothing in thedescription of the archetype mentions that. just less spells known per level.

At any level you would be privy to new spells the number known equals 1. By taking crossblooded you reduce that to 0, effectively netting you no new spells until the following level.


right, you have access to the spell level itself, usable for metamagic, but not the higher level spells themself, which is what andreww mentioned.


ah ok, now i understand. thanks :)


Should look at the THE MESMERIC BLOODLINE from the Class acts. it has some charming control aspects and you can still do damage.


Quandary wrote:
1) magical knack won't affect your familiar at all, it affects 'caster level' for things like spell scaling and concentration, not spellcaster class level which is what governs familiar abilities.

I understand that when they created the trait, they were not thinking about familiars. That being said, I really do not see any reason why it wouldn't. Especially being I am taking the trait for that reason only. Either way homebrewing a trait that only effects the familiar sounds reasonable, and I think most DM's would accept it. I am convinced mine would go for it.

Quandary wrote:
4) you didn't actually give any rationale for why you might go with tattooed sorceror, other than you CAN do so if you drop the crossblooded archetype. only thing i can think of off-hand is because you want the familiar, and tattooed lets you add it on top of any bloodline in exchange for the 1st bloodline power, without needing eldritch heritage:arcane? (that's a reason why I like it myself)

I am thinking more and more about going that route for the reasons you mentioned. I just really prefer to keep my first level ability. Either way I have already decided to drop crossblooded and go with this one instead. Losing greater invis for x/rounds per day is a bit of a loss. I am not a fan of the Varisan Tattoo, but on further reflection it should help with SR so that would be nice.

Quandary wrote:
5) if you go with tattooed, replacing the 1st level bloodline power, you can't get that power back via eldritch heritage, because you can't take eldritch heritage for a bloodline you already have

Yeah I just noticed that earlier. I don't understand why they would say this, it isn't OP.

Quandary wrote:
6) a nice thing about tattooed archetype, or spell tattoos in general (along with other magical tattoos via the feat) is that activating them is automatically silent (and stilled with the caster tattoos... very nice when you're pinned/paralyzed, and the reservoir tattoo doesn't have a...

Yup, but let's hope I don't get there.

Quandary wrote:
7) it seems like you don't really have a pressing need for all your feats. if you went half-elf instead

Cool spell, I bet Racial Heritage would allow that one

Quandary wrote:
11) if you want to really focus on enchantments/mind-affecting spells, going with the undead or serpent(?) bloodlines, either normally, via crossblooded, or eldritch heritage, lets you affect a broader group of enemies with those same spells.

I have been looking at those bloodlines, the problem is I need to go crossblooded for it. Heritage gives powers not bloodline arcanas. Unless I am missing something. We have been against alot of undead lately, any suggestions for them alone?


Dark servitude wrote:
Should look at the THE MESMERIC BLOODLINE from the Class acts. it has some charming control aspects and you can still do damage.

Cool, I am looking into that one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
theishi wrote:
I understand that when they created the trait, they were not thinking about familiars. That being said, I really do not see any reason why it wouldn't. Especially being I am taking the trait for that reason only. .

Then you're taking the trait for the wrong reason. It's designed solely for a minor edge in spellcasting. Remember that traits are supposed to be only HALF a feat power wise. What you're asking for could be arguably more than what a full feat should grant.

Your basic problem is that quite simply you want too much. You have to decide what you want most and build around that.


LazarX wrote:
theishi wrote:
I understand that when they created the trait, they were not thinking about familiars. That being said, I really do not see any reason why it wouldn't. Especially being I am taking the trait for that reason only. .

Then you're taking the trait for the wrong reason. It's designed solely for a minor edge in spellcasting. Remember that traits are supposed to be only HALF a feat power wise. What you're asking for could be arguably more than what a full feat should grant.

Your basic problem is that quite simply you want too much. You have to decide what you want most and build around that.

This is a minor edge. We are getting an ability at my normal level rather then 2 levels later. There is a feat Boon Companion that increases your level by 4 for the purposes of an animal companion. Half of that would be 2 levels. One is for an animal companion and the other is for a familiar, but if anything the feat is less useful for familiars.

Shadow Lodge

Why not simply choose to be an Arcane sorcerer and avoid all the twisting around familiars in the first place? That familiar is the most important part of the whole story.


Because the character is an enchanter, he needs the +2 compulsion. Really +2 compulsion and a familiar is not really that big a deal. You guys make it sound like I want +2 to every field, a familiar, and a fighters BaB.


Magical Knack does indeed not apply to your familiar level. What it basically is for is if your caster level in a particular class is not at your hit dice (generally from multiclassing, though Paladins and Rangers have an innate -3 on caster level, I think).

Basically, if you were a sorcerer 7, Rogue 2, you could use magical knack to increase your caster level for sorcerer spells up to an effective 9. Meaning they would last longer (such as 1 round per level durations), or do more damage (such as 1d6 damage per level), wherever such variables were dependent on caster level. It won't do anything for other class features though, such as spells known, spells per day, or a bloodline power, or anything like that (familiars included).

That said, if you just get your GM to allow a similar trait for the familiar, then no worries.

As for Arcane Bloodline, the fact that it grants a familiar equal to your level is pretty straightforward. In regards to the +2 from Fey, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus will also equate to +2, and Arcane, interestingly enough lets you choose a school of magic, such as enchantment at 15th level for a permanent +2 that stacks. The arcana also gives a DC raise for any metamagic'd spells. So, you're not losing much in save DC for your enchanter, especially if you take Persistent Spell, like Andreww noted would be useful.

Overall, it sounds like it would suit your needs pretty well. As InVinoVeritas said, it saves quite a bit of work on the familiar, at least.

Shadow Lodge

theishi wrote:
Because the character is an enchanter, he needs the +2 compulsion. Really +2 compulsion and a familiar is not really that big a deal. You guys make it sound like I want +2 to every field, a familiar, and a fighters BaB.

Not really... Here on the boards we try to come up with ways using RAW. If you can work out some house rule between yourself and your GM, great, but that's between the two of you and nothing we say or do can really count. So we stick to RAW.

To get what you're looking for, here are some possibilities:

Crossblooded Fey and Arcane

Fey Sorcerer, with feats SF:Know(Arcana) and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), although you're still two levels down--and by RAW, no, Magical Knack doesn't help

Arcane Sorcerer, with feats Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)--this is actually better than Fey+Eldritch Heritage because you're using the same number of feats as Fey+Eldritch, and you get a +2 DC to both compulsion and charm spells. But, of course, you can't choose them again.

Fey Sorcerer 1 / Wiz or Witch X.

You could also talk to your DM about finding some way to get the Seducer racial trait.


Dark servitude wrote:
Should look at the THE MESMERIC BLOODLINE from the Class acts. it has some charming control aspects and you can still do damage.

So I get +1 vs all charms, instead of +2 vs compulsion. I think +2 vs compulsion is better. The rest are blasty and defensive. Doesn't sound at all like a charm bloodline, plus the damage is save or suck.

Silver Crusade

theishi wrote:
Because the character is an enchanter, he needs the +2 compulsion. Really +2 compulsion and a familiar is not really that big a deal. You guys make it sound like I want +2 to every field, a familiar, and a fighters BaB.

I have a Tattooed Fey Sorcerer. This gives me a familiar and a Varisian Tattoo for +1 CL on Evocation spells. I split my spells known roughly halfway between evocation and enchantment, since I have bonuses to both from my bloodline and tattoo. The character's very good at enchantments, but I've got backup blasting power to use on undead or other stuff that can't be enchanted.

To me, giving up the 1st level Fey power was worth it, and this is an effective, but not terribly complex, build.

Scarab Sages

You can try this Crossblooded/Wildblooded Rime-blooded/Sage setup for level 1.

Sage converts CHA-based skills and spells to INT-based.
Rime-Blooded makes it whenever you cast a cold descriptor spell, opponent makes a Fort DC or be slowed for a round.

- Toss your INT to high numbers (20 is a nice number for PFS) and take the Reach Metamagic Feat. If Human, you can also get Spell Focus (Evocation) or Elemental Focus (Cold).
- Also grab the trait Magical Lineage to reduce the Metamagic Spell Level increase by 1.
- Choose Ray of Frost.

Simply put, whenever you cast Ray of Frost with a range of 110 ft, Fort DC 16 or Slow. No need to hit.


+1 ...if his GM is open to homebrew, allowing a feat that gave +4 class level (up to character level) for familiar powers/qualifying purposes seems reasonable, based on Boon Companion. but if he goes with tattooed sorceror, it's not an issue anyways.

losing grt invisibility su/sla bloodline power isn't the worst thing in the world... actually having an invisibility spell or two is useful, especially for your allies... and there are ones that are more useful than the bloodline ability, such as the one that simultaneously creates an illusionary double of yourself that you can control where it moves to, so many opponents (who fail spellcraft) will not realize you went invisible... (i forget the name off-hand)

the fact that you can't take eldritch heritage for your existing bloodlines seems pretty much exactly so you can't archetype out stuff and then regain it, the archetype trade-offs are meant to be serious.

yes, to get arcana from multiple bloodlines you really need crossblooded, which is do-able with human, but i can see why anybody (including me) would not want to go there. choosing one of those instead of fey, and still focusing on enchant spells is defintely a valid way to go.

the +1 CL from varisian tattoo (which goes up to +2 w/ enhanced v. tattoo ability later on) is useful for lots of spells, from duration to effect scaling to SR to concentration and dispel checks... especially if you also take spell specialization for a further +2. taking varisian tattoo on it's isn't that amazing, but with the archetype being able to also apply it to all bloodline spells makes it a nice across the board boost.

the silenced effect of the spell tattoos is almost certain to be used against you sometime with a silence spell/effect, unless your GM is rolling in easy mode... same with grappled/pinned/paralyzed (or just taking on-going damage, although the CL boosts help there for Concentration), you don't have a good fort save or CMD, so the caster/reservoir tattoos are useful there (those aren't granted by the archetype, so you'd have to buy the feat, or just buy them from an NPC, but they're pretty thematic and the class does synergize because of the allowance for overlapping 'slots')

have fun!


theishi wrote:
Dark servitude wrote:
Should look at the THE MESMERIC BLOODLINE from the Class acts. it has some charming control aspects and you can still do damage.
So I get +1 vs all charms, instead of +2 vs compulsion. I think +2 vs compulsion is better. The rest are blasty and defensive. Doesn't sound at all like a charm bloodline, plus the damage is save or suck.

Bloodline Arcana: Living creatures under the effects of any MIND-AFFECTING (Compulsion is a mind affecting) spell or ability that you cast or use take a -2 penalty on saving throws against divination spells that you cast.


Undead, Constructs, and all the Sin-spawn will love to beat your head in. Pure school style sorcerers are cool, but with out the ability deal with them (your dm said undead) your going to have problems at best.


there spells that let you control constructs


Dark servitude wrote:
theishi wrote:
Dark servitude wrote:
Should look at the THE MESMERIC BLOODLINE from the Class acts. it has some charming control aspects and you can still do damage.
So I get +1 vs all charms, instead of +2 vs compulsion. I think +2 vs compulsion is better. The rest are blasty and defensive. Doesn't sound at all like a charm bloodline, plus the damage is save or suck.

Bloodline Arcana: Living creatures under the effects of any MIND-AFFECTING (Compulsion is a mind affecting) spell or ability that you cast or use take a -2 penalty on saving throws against divination spells that you cast.

I read that, but what kind of divination spells would I be casting to justify that. Read minds? This seems situational at best, but maybe I am missing something.


Jack Rift wrote:
Undead, Constructs, and all the Sin-spawn will love to beat your head in. Pure school style sorcerers are cool, but with out the ability deal with them (your dm said undead) your going to have problems at best.

Silent image works on undead, even without specialization resisting my spells isn't easy. I have +6 from CHA, that's a 17DC. I am also going to have MM, I am getting a ring of spell storing which will hold MM.

edit: Also why doesn't anyone notice Web and entangle. Those spells work on undead.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Sorcerer Feat and Archetype Selection Advice All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice