It's not in the rules. I meant it half as a joke, and half as a common sense, real-world limitation to the all-day cackling exploit.If a witch is cackling for hours at a time to extend the hex, she's going to have to start making Fortitude saves against losing her voice pretty soon.Where in the rules is this stated?
There is nothing in the rules that explicitly states that cackling is even a sonic effect. At least not that I've found.
My own witch cackles silently.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I concede that Jason's ruling contradicts my own reading of the rule as written.
I concede also that Jason has full authority to make a stupid ruling if he wants to.
But that doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid ruling.
Every now and then I admit that I give the game designers more credit than they are due when I assume that a lead designer would not make a totally idiotic ruling.
And yet they do sometimes. As you clearly pointed out to me, and as I have conceded.
Hey, whatever suits you; none of that is any of my business. I just wanted to call you out on (1) assigning ulterior motives to people who disagree with you and (2) once those people turn out to have been right all along, pretending your ire was directed at something else.
Don't do either of those again and you and I will get along swimmingly, regardless of who's right on any given topic.
I assume the developers just hadn't considered extended out of combat double action cackling. That's what breaks the hex, not letting it work for 2 rounds.
I assume the same thing.
I also assume that realizing potential broken synergies of closely associated class abilities is part of the job description of "designer."
I appreciate that the game designers want to provide answers and participate on these boards. But this sort of thing shows how easy it is for such a response to create far more problems than it solves.
I'm probably being too hard on Jason, but frankly this is pretty obviously a bad ruling and anyone who knows anything about the witch class should never have suggested it. And if Jason isn't that knowledgeable about the witch, he should have let the witch expert rule on it.
I concede that Jason's ruling contradicts my own reading of the rule as written.
I concede also that Jason has full authority to make a stupid ruling if he wants to.
But that doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid ruling.
Every now and then I admit that I give the game designers more credit than they are due when I assume that a lead designer would not make a totally idiotic ruling.
And yet they do sometimes. As you clearly pointed out to me, and as I have conceded.
Hey, whatever suits you; none of that is any of my business. I just wanted to call you out on (1) assigning ulterior motives to people who disagree with you and (2) once those people turn out to have been right all along, pretending your ire was directed at something else.
Don't do either of those again and you and I will get along swimmingly, regardless of who's right on any given topic.
LOL, I stand by my assertion that anyone attempting to utilize this to gain double rolls throughout even a single encounter is doing exactly what I accused them of Jiggy.
|
If you only cackle and move in every round, a single rounds interruption (or being 30' from the targets) ends the effect. It's far more effective to Cackle twice a round for a couple of hours before setting out on your adventure. That way you can stop while you need to be doing other things.
There's no real mechanical solution for this. It's a roleplaying and player level problem and it sounds like a personality conflict with this player. I'd just tell him flat out you won't allow it. Make up an in-game reason if you want - rules for going hoarse or whatever - but make it clear that the real reason is metagame, not in world.
The prime rule is "Don't be a dick." Using this combination in this way is being a dick. Stop it up front. Letting him take it with this intent and then killing/punishing the character for it is also being a dick. Deal with it up front.
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
I have always read it as a non stackable effect, i.e. you get to extend the effect by 1 round even if you use 2 action to cackle.
AFAIK all people I have seen posting in these boards have read it that way.Just keep in mind that Rick is limiting his use of Move actions and telling every critter in the dungeon/woods/temple exactly where the party is. When his insane cackling wakes up the 23 ogres and 8 dire wolves who were just waiting around to be taken out a room at a time, they all band up and chase Rick & crew out of their lair like a bunch of primitives chasing Indiana Jones...but Rick doesn't have a plane waiting in the river.
Throw realistic but severe consequences for ludicrous behavior at rules-abusers and watch them either quit or conform.
If that fails, see Feral's post above.
As has been said above, there are no rules on how loud cackling has to be, if it even has to be loud at all. You can also cackle full time for part of you 8 hours of downtime in the morning, preferably in a safe location, giving you hours of already stored up fortune time.
If you wanted to be a dick about it, you could make him, and everyone else, go through it on a round by round basis. You'd need to, to make sure everyone stays within range and he doesn't stop. A few hours of this would probably piss everyone off enough to make him stop.
OTOH, that's being a dick. Don't do that. Tell him upfront you won't let it work.
"A witch can cackle madly as a move action." That phrase it really simple and it define clearly the level of noise made by the witch.
I know that people have a tendency to dismiss as flavor what don't agree with how they want to play, but I think there is little room to say that you can cackle silently.
If you only cackle and move in every round, a single rounds interruption (or being 30' from the targets) ends the effect. It's far more effective to Cackle twice a round for a couple of hours before setting out on your adventure. That way you can stop while you need to be doing other things.
There's no real mechanical solution for this. It's a roleplaying and player level problem and it sounds like a personality conflict with this player. I'd just tell him flat out you won't allow it. Make up an in-game reason if you want - rules for going hoarse or whatever - but make it clear that the real reason is metagame, not in world.
The prime rule is "Don't be a dick." Using this combination in this way is being a dick. Stop it up front. Letting him take it with this intent and then killing/punishing the character for it is also being a dick. Deal with it up front.
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.I have always read it as a non stackable effect, i.e. you get to extend the effect by 1 round even if you use 2 action to cackle.
AFAIK all people I have seen posting in these boards have read it that way.
Hmmm... I guess you mean "all those posting on these boards except for the host of posters in this particular thread who assert otherwise."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm... I guess you mean "all those posting on these boards except for the host of posters in this particular thread who assert otherwise."
Still reading the thread and replying step by step (added something tot eh post above, BTW).
Ave you read the Bulman post linked by Cheapy? There is an interesting tidbit in it:
Basically.. its this.
Once the hex has been put on you, it lasts for a number of rounds depending on the witch's level. During that time, you get the benefit (each round). After that time ends, you must wait 24 hours before you can have this hex put on you again.
In this case, "benefit from" should be read as "have this put on you".. which is quite a bit more clunky. I would not try to read too much into it. Although, I think it is well within the GMs purview to state that if you had it put on you, but did not use it at all during its duration, that you did not benefit, but I would leave that up to the GM to decide.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Late night board surfer
So you get the hex today and benefit from it for all the day, tomorrow you can't get it until 24 hors have passed.
No "get it all day, sleep and repeat it the next day."
So you get the hex today and benefit from it for all the day, tomorrow you can't get it until 24 hors have passed.
No "get it all day, sleep and repeat it the next day."
Hey, yeah, that's a good catch Diego.
I stand by my assertion that anyone attempting to utilize this to gain double rolls throughout even a single encounter is doing exactly what I accused them of Jiggy.
Which is what, exactly?
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
For what it's worth, I've actually had a player bring this up at a PFS table I was judging. I didn't invent new mechanics (like sore throat stuff) or anything like that. I just told him, out-of-character, not to do it.
Scenario went fine, player was happy, fun was had by all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just tried to write a post and I did something weird and it disappeared, so hopefully this will work this time. Hopefully I also will remember what I was trying to say.
First, the main issue, to Boribam
The problem is NOT any broken combo Rick wants to play. The problem is Rick had decided to object to your restrictions (which are reasonable) and wants "vengeance" by antagonizing you with the most broken build possible. The particular problem is his ANTAGONISM, not the character.
Big rule of roleplaying: deal with in-game situations in-game, and out of game situations out of game. You can't deal with this effectively mechanically because it is an out of game problem -- the problem is Rick's attitude toward you. No matter what you do in-game to try to counter what he does, it is highly unlikely to change his attitude.
You need to talk to him. Note you sense he is trying to do things to "get back" at you, rather than just design a good character. Apologize if he felt his ideas were being put down, but assert that you need to put some reasonable restrictions on the game so you are able to run it to the best of your ability. Talk about how you might be able to work out any hurt feelings, but encourage him to try things your way and see what happens. Since he's your girlfriend's friend, ask her for some advice on the best way to approach him.
In the best case scenario, he backs off and the game goes on. In the worst case scenario, he continues to antagonize you and makes the game no fun for anyone, especially you. If the latter becomes the case, he needs to be disinvited from the game, period.
Second, the Fortune Issue, for the record
This is the ability:
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.
This is the way I interpret this:
Fortune's duration can be extended from one round to several, whether due to Cackle or due to the witch being high level.
The target chooses when to activate it, any time within that duration.
Once the target succeeds on a roll thanks to activating Fortune, he has "benefited" from it. After this has happened, he gets no further effect from it for 24 hours.
Yes, this contradicts Jason Buhlman's clarification. I think his explanation still makes it so you can't be affected by the hex more than once per day, so if the witch in the OP's case was forced to stop cackling, it would finally cease.
I think my interpretation would help keep the cackle+fortune combo getting ridiculous, so something for the OP to bear in mind. By all means if you want to go with the lead designer of the game instead, however, my feelings will not be hurt in the least. :)
I know this is being discussed vehemently as I even type now so I may have missed a part of the argument. Take it with the appropriately sized salt crystal.
Anyway, for the OP, I think there are ways to legally and fairly make this hex combo not really a huge problem. I'd also rule, while we're at it, that if cackling takes a move action, then the witch moves half as quickly as everyone else as long as he is activating the ability every turn. Also, there are going to be times that witch is going to want that move action for something else, and he may have designed himself into a corner.
But again, I think the real problem is less the character and more the player -- even if this specific issue is resolved, the mammoth antagonism issue is the one that may not go away as easily.
For what it's worth, I've actually had a player bring this up at a PFS table I was judging. I didn't invent new mechanics (like sore throat stuff) or anything like that. I just told him, out-of-character, not to do it.
Scenario went fine, player was happy, fun was had by all.
So Jiggy, based on the last few posts of yours, I admit that I did misunderstand your position on this. I had thought originally you were arguing in favor of the all day thing.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Ave you read the Bulman post linked by Cheapy? There is an interesting tidbit in it:Basically.. its this.
Once the hex has been put on you, it lasts for a number of rounds depending on the witch's level. During that time, you get the benefit (each round). After that time ends, you must wait 24 hours before you can have this hex put on you again
So you get the hex today and benefit from it for all the day, tomorrow you can't get it until 24 hors have passed.
No "get it all day, sleep and repeat it the next day."That's particularly annoying, since practically nothing else works that way and it requires paying more attention to clock time than you usually have to. "Which fight did I use fortune on you in yesterday? That was pretty early in the day right? Has it been 24 hrs yet or should we have slept in this morning?"
I'd make it a per day thing, resetting when the witch gets spells, right after I banned extended out of combat cackling.
We must be careful of overanalyzing snippets of messageboard comments that are tangential to the person's actual point.
|
|
That's particularly annoying, since practically nothing else works that way and it requires paying more attention to clock time than you usually have to. "Which fight did I use fortune on you in yesterday? That was pretty early in the day right? Has it been 24 hrs yet or should we have slept in this morning?"I'd make it a per day thing, resetting when the witch gets spells, right after I banned extended out of combat cackling.
Actually there are several things that work that way, mostly magic items that work once every 24 hours.
It is done to avoid the "it is midnight minus 1 minute, I will use ability X, or it will be wasted for the day. After all it will recharge after midnight."An interesting corollary is that most witch hexes will have that limitation.
Hexes that can't be repeated on the same target within 24 hours:
charm
fortune
healing
Major Healing
Waxen Image (after a successful save)
Hexes that can't be repeated on the same target within 1 day :
Misfortune
Slumber
Agony
Death Curse
Eternal Slumber
Forced Reincarnation
We must be careful of overanalyzing snippets of messageboard comments that are tangential to the person's actual point.
Seeing how there are a few magic items that work that way, I doubt it is over analyzing.
Or you think that having people use their 1/day ability every day just before going to sleep is a good thing?
Contributor
|
Personally, I think the 24 hour elapse between uses matches the folkloric "a day and a night" thing for witches. It feels right. It also means that time is important to witches in a different way than it is to wizards (though even they lose spell slots if not enough time has elapsed, regardless of rest).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, I never realized the way cackle and fortune interacted was particularly arguable.
Fortune lets you get a reroll once per round for as long as you have it on you.
Cackle lets you extend fortune hexes (among other things).
What's so debatable on that? Putting it on someone, or even the whole party, in a given combat and keeping it up by cackling seems to be exactly how they are meant to interact. The same way misfortune should be put on enemies, and extended as long as possible by cackling, since it can't be put on them again after it goes off (at least, it's as hard to put back on as fortune, what with needing to wait 24 hours).
I guess I could be wrong on that, but I always thought it seemed pretty clear cut.
As far as keeping it going all day of course, that's a rather blatant abuse of the abilities, which I would probably dislike. A fair few reasonable drawbacks of something like that have been posted, and they all seem pretty smooth, though simply discussing things with the player out of game might be my preferred solution.
We're also wondering what hexes look like. If anyone has any insight on that, lemme know.
Generally speaking, like this.
Heck, I'd allow it. I'd cause trouble if they wanted to do things that way, but I'd allow it. It could be fun!
Also, I'd re-flavor the character's "Cackle twice per round for double the benefit" as a long, involved ritual, probably with some sort of other cost. I'd allow it if they wanted to do it the other way, but it's likely they'd be exhausted, subject to disease, and generally weakened as a result.
But all that's house ruling. Interesting thread otherwise.
|
|
Actually there are several things that work that way, mostly magic items that work once every 24 hours.
It is done to avoid the "it is midnight minus 1 minute, I will use ability X, or it will be wasted for the day. After all it will recharge after midnight."
And replaces it with "No you can't use that, since you used it yesterday at 10:05 and it's only 9:45 now."
I'd rather just use the healing before going to bed, since none of the others really matter.
Really? so if I have a marble elephant in your games, I get to use it for 4 days between the 27 and the 30 of June, then it is ready to go for another 4 days the 1 of July?
The recharge time is relevant. You can rule that it recharge at sundown or sunup, but then you have problems when there is a late night fight and people benefit from the effect the next day at sunup.
It is not exactly removing the waiting period, but it is a lessening of the drawback.
For the "24-hour period" argument, I like to borrow a 4E-style "long rest" as a house rule. If the party rests long enough to benefit from non-spell healing and regain spells, the ability/item/whatever regains its ability to be used.
Actually there are several things that work that way, mostly magic items that work once every 24 hours.
It is done to avoid the "it is midnight minus 1 minute, I will use ability X, or it will be wasted for the day. After all it will recharge after midnight."And replaces it with "No you can't use that, since you used it yesterday at 10:05 and it's only 9:45 now."
I'd rather just use the healing before going to bed, since none of the others really matter.
Personally, if someone's going to abuse things by RAW, I will let them, but I will enforce it in the most annoying way possible to make sure they know this is all on them.
This presumes, of course, that we've talked about it reasonably and they are doing this in spite of that. I've got other players to worry about and will resolve things after the session.
EDIT: to be clear, I normally wouldn't enforce this either. But if someone's going to force an issue, as GM I have every right to enforce the issue, and in that case, to finish out a session, I will.
honestly I would let him do it, really it's okay to stick by the rules.
Of course if he ever stops cackling because someone goes out of range or he doesn't have a move action left he can't cast fortune on that person again for 24hours (not just until he sleeps 8h).
So before any real fight just give a few challenges to see if he still wants that move action. Don't always do it, but sometimes just let him climb, avoid falling rocks, let him swim or fly somewhere or whatever.
Also just for the fun of it, let them meet a boss who got 100 witches in his well defended castle cellar who have fortune, scar (for the distance) and cackle and really have nothing else to do than let him reroll every round 100 dice. Human lvl 1 spellcaster services should be affordable. (and yes I'm pretty sure that multiple cackles from different witches stack)
And if they are high enough levels and you're really pissed make it a vorpal weapon and reroll till you get that natural 20. He will make every attack and every save, just look to his AC, perhaps well shielded Paladin or Cleric. Or just play him as an NPC who makes every skill check thrown at him.
However I strongly dislike fortune and misfortune hexes because rerolling takes up too much time, on that ground I wouldn't have allowed it. Perhaps you could time combat and tell that 6 attacks warrior that his rerolls make it take forever.
On the other hand fortune helps the party and is a very social hex which doesn't steal the spotlight from other players. I think people who don't try to kill everything themselves are rather likeable in general.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Of course if he ever stops cackling because someone goes out of range or he doesn't have a move action left he can't cast fortune on that person again for 24hours (not just until he sleeps 8h).
So before any real fight just give a few challenges to see if he still wants that move action. Don't always do it, but sometimes just let him climb, avoid falling rocks, let him swim or fly somewhere or whatever.
I'm not so sure you understand the combo.
We're not talking about the witch cackling all day but if they ever stop to do something else with their actions, the Fortune is done.
We're talking about how, by cackling twice per round, the witch can cackle all morning and then stop cackling but still have hours and hours of duration left on everyone's Fortune. During that time, the witch can use all his actions as normal, while the accumulated duration ticks away. With a few hours of investment each morning, the whole party is Fortune'd for the rest of the day with no further inconvenience to anyone, including the witch.
That is the combo being discussed.
"A few hours" being six? That seems like a lot of effort to go through.
@ Jiggy: Actually, I don't think that was the original idea in the OP. From my understanding it was meant to be the former 'cackle every round to keep it on all day.'
Doubling up on it is hilariously broken, perhaps, but honestly, that would kind of annoy me as a player more than anything else. My characters don't generally want to sit around listening to a witch laugh wildly for hours on end before we start adventuring. Let alone doing that day after day after day.
Character personality notwithstanding though, you'd have to waste half of your planned adventuring time on getting it started up. And as Diego pointed out, not having it go off until the party rests means it's pretty much not available the next day.
On that note, to the OP: Introducing some time-sensitive stuff might be fun to mess up the second idea, if the player starts trying that as well.
|
|
Doubling up on it is hilariously broken, perhaps, but honestly, that would kind of annoy me as a player more than anything else. My characters don't generally want to sit around listening to a witch laugh wildly for hours on end before we start adventuring. Let alone doing that day after day after day.
It would explain why my character would take a level of barbarian, wild rager archetype, after a few days of that treatment. Lots of pent up annoyance to went on someone.
I don't know, you and I seem to be playing different games, thejeff. Six hours is a long time for a character in one of our games.
Partially because you could get interrupted at any minute, and partially because that really eats into the roleplaying time during an in-game day.
What the witch is not doing during that time: eating, resting, talking, using any of her skills, crafting, walking, or anything else.
Six hours (or even four) is the kind of thing you set aside a huge chunk of your time for. It's hard enough to get gamers together to play a game that long once per week. Because life happens. I can't imagine the logistics of doing that every day!
But again, that's our games v. someone else's.
EDIT (because I realize that could have sounded cold):
By "playing a different game" I just mean a different style of play than we've used in all my time as a player or GM. I didn't mean to imply that "urdoinitrong", which I can (in retrospect) see this post being read as. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding!
|
|
Tactilson, this is the forum where someone said that casting create demiplane, greater and permanency three times every day will leave you enough free time thanks to a ring of sustenance (18 hors of casting time every day) and that doing that for 120 years to get a demiplane of the size of Versailles would not be a problem for an immortal wizard.
I think he would become mad after a few months of that.
I'm not saying that someone can't do it, or even that they shouldn't. I'm saying that it's unlikely in the games that we play.
Which is entirely anecdotal, and I recognize that!
Point being though, in our games (the games either my wife runs or I do, or any game that either of us would tend to play in, given our play styles, it's very unlikely to come to that because, "We have things what need doin'."
EDIT: meaning that while the witch and (maybe) one other party member is busy with her cackling for six hours, at least two of us (presuming we're both in the game) get to play other things. Sounds boring to me.
Again, that's our games, though. I get that.
It would explain why my character would take a level of barbarian, wild rager archetype, after a few days of that treatment.
So that when the witch 'accidentally' gets a x3 greataxe crit to the face, you have a plausible excuse?
"I'm sorry, I failed the Will save!" :(
I like it.
EDIT: meaning that while the witch and (maybe) one other party member is busy with her cackling for six hours, at least two of us (presuming we're both in the game) get to play other things. Sounds boring to me.
Yeah, in character, I more often than not dislike wasting time when there's stuff to be done. If the entire party is waiting several hours for the witch to do this on a semi-regular basis, I'm sure my character (and myself) would be getting increasingly frustrated with it.
It's easy enough to gloss over out of game, but in game? Who the hell wants to waste that much time consistently and repeatedly?
Darkwolf117: that's pretty much exactly it.
Maybe you should just point out to him that a PC simply cannot win an arms race with the GM. The RAW allows his exploit. The RAW allows you to do anything you want.
And, the game itself runs to a certain degree on gentlemens' agreements. From your posting it sounds like cheesy rules exploits are against the gentlemans' agreement you want from your table. This may not have been the case at other tables he has played at, but it is at yours - so tell him that.
What's that got to do with the all-day exploit? Nothing. You were so sure that the 1/day "benefit" meant the re-roll, that you were willing to make accusations of "ignoring" things, and even assign motives.
Your rules-fu is strong, AD. I will add though that as a friendly advice you could probably stand to do this thing Jiggy is talking about a bit less.
Yeah, actually, we do.
Food. Shelter. Conversation. These things take time.
Gathering Information.
Survival Rolls.
Setting up Camp.
Scouting.
Research.
Conversation.
There are so many things to do in a day, that it's kind of ridiculous.
And what are you doing in those 10-15 minutes? That means, at most, you're about ten minutes away (presuming you're not just charging in like mad, which, I admit, may well be the case)... which puts you within spying range, scout range, and ambush range.
Anyone doing anything remotely tactical on a raid is going to take time to set it up. That time is a cost factor.
Stealth.
Careful Negotiation.
Ticking timeclocks.
These things eat up time quickly as well.
And going from fight to fight is hardly the point. The point (as it was presented) was to constantly have cackle up 24 hours a day: that indicates an adventurer who wants the advantage for every moment spent adventuring. Thus the six-hour suggestion (though I suppose four hours would work equally well given your allotment above).
It doesn't matter, though, because while the witch is spending time cackling to get a minor advantage, the two of us will be doing other stuff in the game world. It would be kind of crazy for people to literally sit for a few hours each day listening to nothing but some weirdo cackling.
In the OP's game, in fact, there will be very, very serious RP repercussions for someone doing that. Magic is odd and obscure... someone that just cackles incessantly is going to come off as 'insane', and much more so if they start talking about their "magic laugh".
Witch's don't have diplomacy, so making them hoof it with just their charisma is going to be seriously difficult on them, and having the face continually explain, "pardon my friend, he's a little odd" is really going to get old after a while, bonuses or no.
But really, time an in-character conversation sometime. It takes far longer than you might imagine. At least it tends to for us.
Yeah, but then you're done with it for the day, and while it's a great party trick for one combat per day, the luster will wear off quickly if that's all you can do (and also I don't usually believe in one-and-done workday). Also, we're well beyond the OP's point or problem by this time.
And it'll likely never really amount to much in our personal games if someone ever did try this.
|
I don't understand how there is any real issue here, even if the player is attempting to antagonise the GM. It's a strange situation, but doesn't seem abusive.
He wants to cackle all day, fine. He wants to cackle silently, it's a supernatural action, so fine (RAW, though this seems odd - completely fair to say he's madly making some noise, too, RAW - this is the most arguable point).
Cackle is a move action, so he'll be taking half-actions all day. That is severely hampering on his own character every time he is in combat (not necessarily in conversation either, RAW; he could conceivably cackle even while holding a conversation, the hex doesn't suggest he can't talk in combat while cackling).
Jason's ruling "24 hours after the hex ends" is clearly meant to be interpreted as usable once per day, like everything else in the game, despite his wording. Not 10.00am till 9.59am the next day. That's crazy.