OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
Yeah I am of the school of thought that you use what works. Consideration to what is good or evil does not effect that choice. So yes I will animate undead and leave them in my home while I go off to do stuff. As well as place symbols of death, pain, weakness, and fear. If protecting your home is an evil act then well alot of spellcasters are going to be in that boat, or victims of thieves. xP
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
Yeah I am of the school of thought that you use what works. Consideration to what is good or evil does not effect that choice. So yes I will animate undead and leave them in my home while I go off to do stuff. As well as place symbols of death, pain, weakness, and fear. If protecting your home is an evil act then well alot of spellcasters are going to be in that boat, or victims of thieves. xP
The way you seem to go about it is like saying "I should be able to go out on the streets and murder people who might break into my house to protect it." Not all wards are symbols of death and pain. Locks are not evil.
Darcnes Goblin Squad Member |
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
The way you seem to go about it is like saying "I should be able to go out on the streets and murder people who might break into my house to protect it." Not all wards are symbols of death and pain. Locks are not evil.
Ok thats just blowing things out of proportion. Everything is in my home, so unless someone breaks in they are in no danger from my defenses. You get pass the lock to a spellcasters home then buddy expect bad things to happen. You accepted the consequences by breaking in. Which is more of an evil act then home security.
Drakhan you keep pointing to the alignment system but where is it. I do not know what definations your pointing to. I hear alot of your opinion, but no source of fact has been stated. If so please direct me to it. Sense if there is an official PF statement of the alignment system I would be interested in it.
Darcnes Goblin Squad Member |
@Drakhan From what it sounds like to me, what he believes isn't the issue here. It sounds like he's willing to accept the consequences of his actions regardless of what they may be. If protecting his own involves raising the dead, and raising the dead is Evil, then he's going to be a bit Evil and so be it. No use quoting my own posts back to me. ;)
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
At the risk of being a nit picker, cure spells and most healing spells in general normally fall into the conjuration school. Vampiric touch is an exception and does fall under necromancy. So its understandable.
Yeah I tend to play N types, I dont like limiting myself and few adventures give the luxery of morality. The river kingdoms is a prime example of a whole lot of gray areas. ;)
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
@Drakhan From what it sounds like to me, what he believes isn't the issue here. It sounds like he's willing to accept the consequences of his actions regardless of what they may be. If protecting his own involves raising the dead, and raising the dead is Evil, then he's going to be a bit Evil and so be it. No use quoting my own posts back to me. ;)
He's arguing that raising the dead to follow his whims is good. He's wrong.
Also, yes, Cure spells were necromancy in 2e AD&D, but with the advent of 3e Cure spells became Conjuration (Healing) spells.
Sunwader Goblin Squad Member |
Dario Goblin Squad Member |
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
Sunwader wrote:I wonder if criminal flag will be faction dependent, could make some interesting implicationsFlee to a non-extradition settlement? =P
Exactly! Wars have started over less. I can picture negotiations over someone who fled to a CG settlement from LE for breaking a law there. The CG settlement could choose to allow the LE to hunt the criminal to avoid war.
Dario Goblin Squad Member |
Banecrow Goblin Squad Member |
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
He's arguing that raising the dead to follow his whims is good. He's wrong.
No what I am saying is that what others consider right or wrong should not play a role in the result. Raising the dead may be evil to you, its making use of a resource to me. Placing morality on something based on belief rather then action does not make sense for this type of game. As I have pointed out before, this is your opinion as what I have said is mine. The devs will judge what is evil, but personally I doubt necromancy would be blanketed as evil. That would be like saying evocation is evil sense its used mostly to destroy and little else.
@Banecrow
Depends, seen some games where undead are restricted to certain creatures. Really I think its if they want to get real detailed on it or not. Could just add undead over time while having humanoids at the start with a few monster undead thrown in for higher levels. Personally I would not mind animating a dragon skeleton, everyone else got magic items. I got me a new pet. x3
Banecrow Goblin Squad Member |
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No what I am saying is that what others consider right or wrong should not play a role in the result. Raising the dead may be evil to you, its making use of a resource to me. Placing morality on something based on belief rather then action does not make sense for this type of game. As I have pointed out before, this is your opinion as what I have said is mine. The devs will judge what is evil, but personally I doubt necromancy would be blanketed as evil. That would be like saying evocation is evil sense its used mostly to destroy and little else.Sigh. RESPECT: Find Out What It Means to Me!
In the real world, there's no absolute definition of good or evil or law or chaos, and everyone subjectively forms their own opinion of other people's ethics and morality. Two people could have very different opinions about a third person. In the world of Pathfinder, this is not the case. Alignment is a universal constant—an absolute framework within which every sentient creature is embedded. Two people can use magic to determine the alignment position of a third and they'll both get the same information.
Alignment in the Pathfinder world is also a descriptor. Things don't just act in good or evil ways; they are good or evil. And when a person uses something which is strongly aligned, that person is engaging in an act which is definitively aligned as well. The whole "ends justify the means" thing doesn't apply in Pathfinder.
Show me which good god in Pathfinder loves undead and I'll concede the point.
Banecrow Goblin Squad Member |
@Drakhan I am sure some of the evil gods love undead.
@Everyone else.
But that said in the pathfinder universe creating undead IS an evil act. I would love to be able to have non-evil ones. But the rules state undead are evil. Creating them pushes your alignment towards evil.
Now people can house rule all they want for the game they are running. But remember by core pathfinder it is an evil act and I am sure that Pathfinder Online will also count it as the same. Sucks I know, but that is the simple truth.
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
Dakcenturi Goblinworks Executive Founder |
@OmniChaos yeah that would be awesome but I doubt it will happen. I just want to be able to make the variant skeletons like the bloody etc. Otherwise every time one of my pets died I would have to go out and get a new one all over again.
This is one of the great possibilities of Unity. GW may only have the bandwidth to create so many undead models/animations, but then someone in the community could go out and model some more things get them animated and working in Unity and then it makes it really easy for GW to possibly utilize it. :)
gustavo iglesias |
Drakhan Valane wrote:He's arguing that raising the dead to follow his whims is good. He's wrong.No what I am saying is that what others consider right or wrong should not play a role in the result. Raising the dead may be evil to you, its making use of a resource to me.
And genocyde of an entire race might be wrong for me, but making use of a resource for Hitler. That does not mean Hitler isn't Evil by Pathfinder's definition.
Placing morality on something based on belief rather then action does not make sense for this type of game. As I have pointed out before, this is your opinion as what I have said is mine. The devs will judge what is evil, but personally I doubt necromancy would be blanketed as evil. That would be like saying evocation is evil sense its used mostly to destroy and little else.
Bad analogy, as a Wall of Fire does not detect as evil when Detect Evil is cast on it, but a Skeleton or Zombie DOES detect as evil when Detect Evil is cast on it. It actually detect as evil in aproximatedly the same order of magnitude of similar hit dice Devils, Demons and Antipaladins. Which means kinda evil.
So, while casting a Cone of Cold in self-defense (or using an Explosive Rune in your house as home protection) isn't evil by itself, by Pathfinder definition, Summoning an Ice Devil in self defense (or filling your house with evil-detected zombies as home protection) is evil, by Pathfinder definition of evil.
Mushroom C1oud Goblin Squad Member |
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
Let me understand this, if someone makes use of skeletons and zombies their evil. So if I choose to use undead to help and protect people I will still be evil. +1 for helping save the village but -1 for using undead, you are now evil? Does not make sense to me.
People can detect as evil does not mean killing everyone that does unprovoked is a good act and it would be a rather broken system if it did sense their will be PCs that are evil but not in the direct sense. You never even have to kill someone to be evil, does that make you any less so.
If spells effect alignment then its a very abusable system. Simply cast two good spells for every evil one you cast and you have no worries, you can even shift alignment any way you want if thats the case. Not to mention easy access to undetectable alignment after a few levels so detect spells are useless after a point, throw on a item with a good enchantment and your set.
I see alot of problems over making necromancy evil and effecting alignment. But thats one side, could you explain the benefits?
leperkhaun Goblin Squad Member |
well unfortunately unless they break away from lore creating undead is evil. In PfO some actions are always evil, 100% no exceptions, regardless of the reason for doing it.
As for spell effects for alignment, i think that casting spells that shift your alignment (like say casting an evil spell while good) should carry a much harsher penalty than casting two good spells after.
So if you are already good, casting a good spell should do nothing. Casting an evil spell should massively change your alignment since there is no way you can cast one of those spells without knowing its a "bad thing."
however it does need to be restricted so people cannot abuse the system to change alignment easily.
HOWEVER remember that there is crowd forging. perhaps there could be a way to have the devs crowd forge things like, animating dead being evil.
Like you i think there are many good reasons why animating undead does not have to be evil.
In my campaign world animating undead is not evil unless 1) you use negative energy (you can just use raw magic power to do it if you want) or 2) you create intelligent undead. The reason for that is that unintelligent undead dont have souls and even binding a willing soul is so harmful to the person that it warps them and thus is an evil act.
Being Goblin Squad Member |
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
@leperkhaun
In that case what about N types. They cast good and evil spells without worry as long as they keep a "balance" thats equal?
@Being
Cost to much, is the domain of the divine, and I am not interested in uncontrollable servents who I would have to feed, pay, shelter, and keep in a good mood. Thats what leadership is for. For that kinda cash I could animate more then enough guardians for a long time, strong ones too. x3
gustavo iglesias |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let me understand this, if someone makes use of skeletons and zombies their evil. So if I choose to use undead to help and protect people I will still be evil. +1 for helping save the village but -1 for using undead, you are now evil? Does not make sense to me.
I don't know why you think it should matter that you defend some side of a battle or the opposite side to make the act evil or good. If the diabolist conjurer of a tribe of orcs creates skeletons or zombies to protect his people and save his village of demon-worshipper goblinoids against the crusaders of Iomeadae, yes, it's an evil act. Why shouldn't it be just because he is defending some random group of fellow members of his community?
If someone creates skeletons or zombies, in Pathfinder that's evil. Period. He doesn't even need to order them to do anything, either save a village or pillage it. He can animate a zombie, and right after that launch it to the moon in a rocket for further progress of science, and it's still an evil act, no matter of what. Because undeads are evil, and binding the soul of unwilling humanoids to an eternity of despair in a rotting corpse IS evil.
Just like summoning devils and demons and fiendish creatures is evil. Yes, it's evil even if your community is in danger. Good people (or neutral ones) do not cross some lines just because they are in danger. If Andoran is sieged, they won't sacrifice their childrens in a pyre to the Four Horsemens to get help and see their enemies anhilated, because that's evil,and Andoran is a good aligned country. They won't summon pitfiends, open gates to the Abyss, or unleash an horde of undeads either, because they are good, and those ARE evil acts. No matter what's the reason they are doing it.
"End justify the means" is one of the mottos of evil alignment in Pathfinder. And in pathfinder, there's no gray, evil and good are black and white. If it detects as evil, it's evil. And undead are evil.
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
I dont see how having an opposing view is trolling. I am sorry you feel that way. It has only ever been a discussion to me.
Ghost can be any alignment, so much for all undead being evil. Mindless undead are a result of negitive energy which animates them thru magic. No soul binding involved, so dont know where that came from. As for the whole demon summoning example, if they have the ability to summon said demons and such. They have the same ability to summon angels, did they get turned down?
There is gray in pathfinder, it has been the bread and butter of many a AP. Good and evil cities are minorities in PF for a reason, which is the very thing PFO is trying to bring into the MMO stage. Choices and unique paths based on the actions of the players.
I would much rather try to find a system that works for people who want to play "white" or non evil necromancers. I dont want to see necromancer clone abilities in order to still be considered non evil but play the way you want. Already been done and was disappointing, at least to me.
After all necromancy is a spell school that is accessed by all spellcasters regardless of alignement, its not a class in itself nor is it limited as such.
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
I would much rather try to find a system that works for people who want to play "white" or non evil necromancers. I dont want to see necromancer clone abilities in order to still be considered non evil but play the way you want. Already been done and was disappointing, at least to me.
After all necromancy is a spell school that is accessed by all spellcasters regardless of alignement, its not a class in itself nor is it limited as such.
Oh, there's plenty of ways to play a good (or at the least non-evil) necromancers. They simply don't raise undead. Because that's straight up evil per Pathfinder rules.
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
Will the Devs brand summoned undead as evil? That's what needs to be answered. Wy doesn't someone pose a video question about it? They may well like Necs and be planning on them being just another path, or skill set.
I'm really tempted at this point, But I'm fairly confident in the quotes I've provided that animating the dead is undisputeably evil. Because the game rules say it is.
Imbicatus Goblin Squad Member |
Even creating a Neutral Flesh Golem requires casting Animate Dead, and it's an evil spell. While it may be possible to create a tragic figure using forbidden knowledge to save his community from evil, in the end he is perverting the natural order of life and death.
Non-evil societies do not see thier dead a a resource, but they honor them. Even creating a mindless undead is profoundly disrespectful to the remains being used for materials.
I think the disconnect here is between Lawful and Evil. While a Lawful Evil nation may see the dead as a resource to be exploited and value thier contrubition to defending order, it is NOT good.
I actually really like playing Lawful Evil characters in good parties, because they can be all about teamwork and promoting the greater good, while thier acts are evil. Lawful evil is the alignment of several anti-heroes. Dexter Morgan(Murder addiction but an absolutly rigid code of rules), Judge Dredd (Benelovent Dictator, break the law and die), James Bond(Devoted to England, but women are disposable pleasures and he will kill on a whim), all Lawful Evil.
While all of these characters are somewhat heroic, they are all evil.
In Pathfinder, even if you are raising undead for the benefit of your community and are not breaking the law, it's evil.
Mushroom C1oud Goblin Squad Member |
Many of Pharasma's worshipers are those closely aligned with either burgeoning life or terminating death. These include midwives, grave diggers, and morticians. Her priests are typically clerics, diviners, and necromancers that choose not to create undead. Her followers view the undead with hatred and consider them a great abomination. They view putting the undead to rest as a holy duty. The creation of undead is outlawed, and commanding undestroyed undead is not much liked either.
Since PFO uses Pharasma as the deity who resurrects you when you die I don't see creating undead as favorable and would break lore to revive such an outlaw.
gustavo iglesias |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I dont see how having an opposing view is trolling. I am sorry you feel that way. It has only ever been a discussion to me.
Ghost can be any alignment, so much for all undead being evil. Mindless undead are a result of negitive energy which animates them thru magic. No soul binding involved, so dont know where that came from. As for the whole demon summoning example, if they have the ability to summon said demons and such. They have the same ability to summon angels, did they get turned down?
And if they summon angels, it's not an evil act. Or if they cast fireballs. However if they summon demons, or raise undeads, it's an evil act.
That animating mindless skeletons don't have anything to do with souls is debatable. You can't raise dead someone who has turned into a zombie or skeleton. So animating it *does* something to his soul.
There is gray in pathfinder, it has been the bread and butter of many a AP. Good and evil cities are minorities in PF for a reason, which is the very thing PFO is trying to bring into the MMO stage. Choices and unique paths based on the actions of the players.
Sure, and if the guy steals gold and gives it to charity, or he is a dark hero of some sort, it might be gray.
However, some things aren't gray. They are evil, by the definition of the game. Animate dead is [evil], it's said in it's description. Skeletons and zombies are [evil], they detect as such when Detect Evil is cast. It's not gray. It's not like Cleric A cast detect evil, and see them as evil, and Cleric B, who has a more open-minded faith, detects evil and see them as neutral. They are evil, period. If a "holy smite" is cast on them, "holy smite" does damage, period. In real life, you could argue with Stalin if his acts are evil, or a neccessity to keep his people safe, I'm quite sure Old Joseph can make a compelling defense of himself. In this game, though, you don't cast smite evil on the genocyde baron and then argue with him if the end justify the means, and if it's evil or not doing evil things for right reasons. You add your paladin level to damage, period. No gray over there, if it's good it's white, if it's evil it's black, and if it's black you add your paladin level to damage.
I would much rather try to find a system that works for people who want to play "white" or non evil necromancers. I dont want to see necromancer clone abilities in order to still be considered non evil but play the way you want. Already been done and was disappointing, at least to me.
After all necromancy is a spell school that is accessed by all spellcasters regardless of alignement, its not a class in itself nor is it limited as such.
Oh there are a lot of ways to play a white necromancer. Disrupt Undead is a Necromancy spell. So is Halt Undead. Even Scare. None of those are evil. Animate Dead, however, IS evil. It's said in it's description.
Or you can be an evil character. What you can't do, however, is enjoying the use of [evil] spells or magic items, and keep your character inmune to Holy Smite or Smite Evil, or able to touch a holy avenger without gaining negative levels. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
OmniChaos Goblin Squad Member |
Skeletons having an effect on the soul is not really debatable. It says it in their discreption when you look them up. Mindless undead like skeletons are powered by magic. Raise dead does not work because it needs the dead body as a component, which as undead is flooded with negitive energy and magic of its own, this is the reason why death effects stop it from working as well.
Assuming your system is in place. Using your reasoning then I just have to be N, then everytime I make use of evil spells I make use of good spells to the same degree. I do not detect as evil, I can still animate dead. Unless I feel the need to pick evil or good, a personal preference, nothing prevents me from using the undead and remaining non evil. That is a flawed system to say the least and if spells effect alignment then spellcasters will be able to shift with ease considering how many spells they will burn thru as they grow in power, more so in a game that takes a great deal of time. Giving them a fast and easy method to bypass alignment restrictions compared to other classes. That more then anything is why I am against such a system.
This is also assuming PFO will make use of the same system as PF. Which they stated they just may not, that is the reason for crowdforging in the first place. To help them see what will not work in a MMO.
gustavo iglesias |
Assuming your system is in place. Using your reasoning then I just have to be N, then everytime I make use of evil spells I make use of good spells to the same degree. I do not detect as evil, I can still animate dead. Unless I feel the need to pick evil or good, a personal preference, nothing prevents me from using the undead and remaining non evil. That is a flawed system to say the least and if spells effect alignment then spellcasters will be able to shift with ease considering how many spells they will burn thru as they grow in power, more so in a game that takes a great deal of time. Giving them a fast and easy method to bypass alignment restrictions compared to other classes. That more then anything is why I am against such a system.
That's very easy to solve. Don't allow good characters use evil spells, and vice versa. A neutral character that cast evil spells (like Animate dead) becomes evil(and thus can't cast good spells) and a neutral character that cast good spells become good (and thus can't cast animate dead).
Banecrow Goblin Squad Member |
OmniChaos wrote:That's very easy to solve. Don't allow good characters use evil spells, and vice versa. A neutral character that cast evil spells (like Animate dead) becomes evil(and thus can't cast good spells) and a neutral character that cast good spells become good (and thus can't cast animate dead).Assuming your system is in place. Using your reasoning then I just have to be N, then everytime I make use of evil spells I make use of good spells to the same degree. I do not detect as evil, I can still animate dead. Unless I feel the need to pick evil or good, a personal preference, nothing prevents me from using the undead and remaining non evil. That is a flawed system to say the least and if spells effect alignment then spellcasters will be able to shift with ease considering how many spells they will burn thru as they grow in power, more so in a game that takes a great deal of time. Giving them a fast and easy method to bypass alignment restrictions compared to other classes. That more then anything is why I am against such a system.
I dont like that idea, it takes away our choice to change our alignment.
gustavo iglesias |
gustavo iglesias wrote:I dont like that idea, it takes away our choice to change our alignment.OmniChaos wrote:That's very easy to solve. Don't allow good characters use evil spells, and vice versa. A neutral character that cast evil spells (like Animate dead) becomes evil(and thus can't cast good spells) and a neutral character that cast good spells become good (and thus can't cast animate dead).Assuming your system is in place. Using your reasoning then I just have to be N, then everytime I make use of evil spells I make use of good spells to the same degree. I do not detect as evil, I can still animate dead. Unless I feel the need to pick evil or good, a personal preference, nothing prevents me from using the undead and remaining non evil. That is a flawed system to say the least and if spells effect alignment then spellcasters will be able to shift with ease considering how many spells they will burn thru as they grow in power, more so in a game that takes a great deal of time. Giving them a fast and easy method to bypass alignment restrictions compared to other classes. That more then anything is why I am against such a system.
It does not, you can choose whatever alignment you want, including neutral. It does take away your chances to take an aligment and use whatever spells you want, from any alignment, without restrictions. I don't see how that's a bad thing. If a neutral character can be inmune to both Smite good and Smite evil, and use both holy and unholy weapons, and dispel good and dispel evil, what's the point in being good or being evil?
Fulcrum Goblin Squad Member |
I have no problem with necromancy (as it pertains to undead) being evil. As far as I can recall, from the days when pen and paper first took on this fantastical strangeness, making a zombie has been evil. That's fine by me, and I cannot think of a single reason why somebody would choose to rock the boat on something so uncontroversial.
Similarly, I have no problem with "summon butterflies" or "create rainbow" being good (or at least NG to allow druids to have that kind of naturey wholesomeness. I would be fine with seeing both types of activities available in PFO.
At the same time, I am disturbed to think that Imbicatus views James Bond as evil. I must go think on this.
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
Imbicatus Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At the same time, I am disturbed to think that Imbicatus views James Bond as evil. I must go think on this.
I knew that would raise some eyebrows, but it fits. The 00 status indicates you are an assassin. Like the Prestegie Class, before you can get that designation you have to have killed a person on orders just to get in. M16 is more demanading in that you have to have two kills.
Skyfall spoilers below:
In Skyfall, Bond is following a freelance assassin. He allows him to kill three security guards and his target before intervening, sacrificing 4 deaths for a slight chance of more intel. Later in the same movie he encounters a womon who is a slave, and instead of freeing her, he sleeps with her, and then allows here to die to serve as a distraction to allow him to kill the bodyguards and capture the bid bad. These kind of decisions are the kind of things that give you an evil alingment.
The thing is if you are Good, there is no such thing as "The greater good." Good is good. Good doesn't make compromises with evil methods. If you are using "The greater good" to justify evil acts, then you are not Good.
Valandur |
Fulcrum wrote:
At the same time, I am disturbed to think that Imbicatus views James Bond as evil. I must go think on this.The thing is if you are Good, there is no such thing as "The greater good." Good is good. Good doesn't make compromises with evil methods. If you are using "The greater good" to justify evil acts, then you are not Good.
I can certainly agree with that
Dakcenturi Goblinworks Executive Founder |
Dorje Sylas Goblinworks Executive Founder |
You can't cast an Evil Spell and then a Good spell right after and nullify the auras that get left. What happens is you end up detecting as both Good and Evil depending on which detection spell is directed at you.
I would also strongly disagree with outright blocking spell choice based on alignment. It's a choice, like Star War Darkside powers. It's quicker, easier, more seductive. Raising the dead, summoning fiends, all acts that bring objective Evil into the world. Negative energy or just out right Evil entities.
I think the wiggle room has to be with Netural. There is a reason most things and people are Neturally aligned. That is the grey zone. Where an otherwise good person is using undead and fiends on occasion as a "quick" solution.
I do agree a Pharasma Necromancer path is an appropriate path for the Devs to look at. Goes well to the idea of using Dedications to help flesh out Archtypes of a class if they're under powered by build. A 'White' Necromancer would likely be a debuffer and anti-pet build.
Drakhan Valane Goblin Squad Member |
I would also strongly disagree with outright blocking spell choice based on alignment. It's a choice, like Star War Darkside powers. It's quicker, easier, more seductive. Raising the dead, summoning fiends, all acts that bring objective Evil into the world. Negative energy or just out right Evil entities.
Pathfinder PnP rules do this for Clerics. They cannot cast spells from alignments opposite their deity.