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- Solar, Angel ------------------------------- 23----------- Good Aligned Plane
- Balor, Demon------------------------------ 20----------- Any (Abyss)
- Pit Fiend, Devil----------------------------- 20----------- Any (Hell)
- Red Dragon, Great Wyrm------------------ 22----------- Warm Mountains
- Gold Dragon, Great Wyrm----------------- 23----------- Warm Plains
- Silver Dragon, Great Wyrm---------------- 22----------- Temperate Mountains
- Tarn Linnorm------------------------------- 20----------- Cold Lakes or Swamps
- Shoggoth----------------------------------- 19----------- Cold Aquatic or Underground
- Tarrasque---------------------------------- 25----------- Any
- Pleroma, Aeon-------------------------------- 20----------- Any (Outer Plane)
- Draconal, Agathion---------------------------- 20----------- Any Air (Nirvana)
- Star, Archon---------------------------------- 19----------- Any (Heaven)
- Brijidine, Azata-------------------------------- 18----------- Any (Elysium)
- Astradaemon, Daemon------------------------ 16----------- Any (Abaddon or Astral Plane)
- Olethradaemon, Daemon---------------------- 20----------- Any (Abaddon)
- Purodaemon, Daemon------------------------- 18----------- Any (Abaddon)
- Vrolikia, Demon------------------------------- 19----------- Any (Abyss)
- Immolation, Devil------------------------------ 19----------- Any (Hell)
- Crystal Primal Dragon, Great Wyrm----------- 18----------- Any Underground (Plane of Earth)
- Umbral Primal Dragon, Great Wyrm----------- 22----------- Any
- Lhaskharut, Inevitable------------------------- 20----------- Any
- Jabberwock----------------------------------- 23----------- Any Forest
- Mu Spore------------------------------------- 21----------- Any
- Night-Crawler, Nightshade-------------------- 18----------- Any (Negative Energy Plane)
- Night-wave, Nightshade----------------------- 20----------- Any (Negative Energy Plane)
- Keketar, Protean------------------------------ 17----------- Any (Limbo)
- Iathavos, Qlippoth----------------------------- 20----------- Any (Abyss)
- Ravener--------------------------------------- 22----------- Warm Mountains
- Sard------------------------------------------ 19----------- Any Forest
- Thrasfyr--------------------------------------- 17----------- Any
- Elysian Titan----------------------------------- 21----------- Any Land (Elysium)
- Thanatotie Titan------------------------------- 22----------- Any (Abyss)
- Xacarba--------------------------------------- 15----------- Any Land (Abyss)
- Asurendra, Asura----------------------------- 20----------- Any (Hell)
- Bandersnatch---------------------------------- 17----------- Any Forest
- Tempest Behemoth---------------------------- 22----------- Any Air
- Thalassic Behemoth--------------------------- 20----------- Any Water
- Thunder Behemoth---------------------------- 18----------- Any Land
- Shaggy, Demodand--------------------------- 18----------- Any (Abyss)
- Arvan, Div------------------------------------ 20----------- Any (Abaddon)
- Forest Imperial Dragon, Great Wyrm---------- 22----------- Any Forest
- Sea Imperial Dragon, Great Wyrm------------ 20----------- Any Water
- Sky Imperial Dragon, Great Wyrm------------ 21----------- Temperate or Warm Mountains
- Jinushigami, Kami----------------------------- 20----------- Any
- Eremite, Kyton-------------------------------- 20----------- Any (Plane of Shadows)
- Tor Linnorm----------------------------------- 21----------- Cold Volcanic Mountains
- Norn------------------------------------------ 18----------- Cold Mountains
- Void Yai, Oni--------------------------------- 20----------- Cold or Temperate Mountains
- Maharraja, Rakshasa-------------------------- 20----------- Any
- Deep Sea Serpent----------------------------- 19----------- Any Ocean
- Thriae Queen---------------------------------- 18----------- Any
- Hekatonkhirres Titan-------------------------- 24----------- Any
- Tzitzimitl--------------------------------------- 19----------- Any
- Bhole----------------------------------------- 17----------- Any Underground
- Flesh Colossus-------------------------------- 16/MR 6-----Any Land
- Iron Colossus--------------------------------- 21/MR 8-----Any Land
- Stone Colossus-------------------------------- 19/MR 7-----Any Land
- Dagon, Demon Lord-------------------------- 28----------- Any Ocean (Abyss)
- Kostchtchie, Demon Lord--------------------- 26----------- Any Cold (Abyss)
- Pazuzu, Demon Lord-------------------------- 30----------- Any (Abyss)
- Lunar Outer Dragon, Ancient------------------ 18----------- Vacuum
- Solar Outer Dragon, Ancient------------------ 18----------- Vacuum
- Time Outer Dragon, Ancient------------------- 20----------- Vacuum
- Void Outer Dragon, Ancient------------------- 18----------- Vacuum
- Vortex Outer Dragon, Ancient----------------- 19----------- Vacuum
- Drakainia-------------------------------------- 25/MR 8-----Any
- Elohim---------------------------------------- 23/MR 6-----Any (Extraplanar)
- Cernunnas, Empyreal Lord-------------------- 30----------- Any Forest or Plain (Elysium)
- Korada, Empyreal Lord----------------------- 26----------- Any Forest or Mountain (Elysium)
- Vildeis, Empyreal Lord------------------------ 28----------- Any (Heaven)
- Bokrug, Great Old One----------------------- 27----------- Any Water
- Cthulhu, Great Old One----------------------- 30----------- Any (R’lyeh)
- Hastur, Great Old One------------------------ 29----------- Any
- Guardian Dragon------------------------------ 24/MR 10---Any
- Julunggali-------------------------------------- 21/MR 8----Any Land or Water
- Agyra Kaiju----------------------------------- 27----------- Warm Mountains
- Bezravnis Kaiju------------------------------- 26----------- Warm Deserts
- Mogaru Kaiju--------------------------------- 28----------- Warm Forests or Water
- Yamaraj Psychopomp------------------------- 20----------- Any (Purgatory)
- Star-Spawn of Cthulhu------------------------ 20----------- Any
- Fomorian Titan-------------------------------- 22/MR 8-----Any (Abyss)
It took a while (I'm happy I have hard copies), but here is the 81 critters. Though I think each encounter should at least be CR 25, that's just me though (adding more critters as necessary).
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The only real difficulty with diplomacising your way through is the minute required to make a diplomacy check.
Or also adhering to the "Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future," line.
Just like those pesky invisibility modifiers to stealth everyone looks over.
Anzyr, your suggestion that casters simply burn down all buildings they ever encounter in an adventure continues to demonstrate just how disconnected you are from the vast majority of play experiences. Whether it's claims that you can 'simply' visit 200 metropolises in a day or that all spellcasters know all spells ever once they cast paragon surge, you never fail to push past the boundaries of reasonable discourse. I can't help but picture your DM in a role similar to that of Norman Bates' mother.
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Making two builds for you now.
One will be a horsemaster, the other will be a huge tiefling with guns...
I might even make a third, goblin with ROLL WITH IT
dotting for roll with it build
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The only real difficulty with diplomacising your way through is the minute required to make a diplomacy check.Or also adhering to the "Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future," line.
Just like those pesky invisibility modifiers to stealth everyone looks over.
Anzyr, your suggestion that casters simply burn down all buildings they ever encounter in an adventure continues to demonstrate just how disconnected you are from the vast majority of play experiences. Whether it's claims that you can 'simply' visit 200 metropolises in a day or that all spellcasters know all spells ever once they cast paragon surge, you never fail to push past the boundaries of reasonable discourse. I can't help but picture your DM in a role similar to that of Norman Bates' mother.
I'm sorry, if you as a player have never had your PC burn down a building or if you as a GM have never had a plot important building torched by the PCs, I think the one with skewed play expectations in this conversation is not me. Also, if you players don't use their abilities creatively to resolve difficulties by say summoning a Hound Archon to go Greater Teleport shopping for them, I think your players might need 50ccs of imagination.
If you are using summon monster, your summons can't use teleport...
But other that, sure.
Ya I know, I just made the mistake of using summon as a general term there and not as the game term. Though Kain Darkwind should be aware of that since in the conversation he was mentioning I explicitly used a called Hound Archon for just that reason.
I'm sorry, if you as a player have never had your PC burn down a building or if you as a GM have never had a plot important building torched by the PCs, I think the one with skewed play expectations in this conversation is not me. Also, if you players don't use their abilities creatively to resolve difficulties by say summoning a Hound Archon to go Greater Teleport shopping for them, I think your players might need 50ccs of imagination.
"A" building? Yep.
"Multiple" buildings? Yep.
"All" buildings? Nope.
And I noticed you failed to name those missing 150 cities.
It's not (usually) your tactic itself that is the issue. It is almost always the scale to which you assume it can, will and should be applied.
You can't name 150 cities? I mean you need to at least know the 50 capital cities. And then major cities from other countries. Add on a few other interesting places you might pick from conversation and your good to go for 200 some cities with Knowledge (Local) DC 10. With some research materials (like an atlas or map) you should be able to get even more. I mean considering the population of our world I can name like 20 Metropolises that are (relatively) close to the metropolis (by PF standards) that I live in.
And I never said burn down every building (though if thats the best strategy, then absolutely you should burn down every building), especially since most buildings are not 10x10 boxes. As long as you have a decent ceiling and some maneuvering the costs of torching it for a bit more maneuverability are rather high.
You can't name 150 metropolises on Golarion. You certainly cannot do so in my campaign.
The idea that you can simply make 1 (or 200) DC 10 checks to gain a new metropolis name, even assuming there were that many in the world, demonstrates your poor grasp of the rules. It would not be a single DC 10 check to know every major city/metropolis in the world, you would make one check for 'known metropolises' and get 1-2 for DC 10, some more for DC 15, some more for DC 20, etc.
What is the nearest metropolis? That's an easy question.
Name 200 metroplises? That's not an easy question by any measure, and suggesting otherwise is being willfully obtuse.
I doubt I actually have any points invested in Knowledge (Local) irl, and I can name 200 metropolises. I wouldn't need a library to do so, thus it can't be higher then DC 10 assuming I'm untrained (which is likely). Thus, I'd say that's exactly the kind of information a DC 10 Knowledge (Local) can get you. You have your DC math completely backwards by assuming that more general info = higher check. That is not how skill DCs for knowledges work. General Info about each metropolis is only a DC 10 per metropolis. Learning about new metropolises doesn't make your DC go up, that's literally inane. Here's the check:
Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations: Local DC 10
It doesn't go up, or change based on where you are. That same DC 10 will get knowledge local about the West Coast even if I'm on the East Coast and vice versa. Remember just because it's called Knowledge (Local), doesn't mean it only applies to one area. It applies to *all* areas. Which I think is the mistake you are making.
That may be how you run it, but that is not how the rules work. Knowledge (Local) covers the local knowledge of everywhere.
Want to know the capital of a given US state? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
Want to know popular places around Paris? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
Want to know the important cities of South Africa? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
In each of those above circumstances the called for skill is Knowledge (Local), and there is no mention of any penalties when making Knowledge (Local) checks simply because you don't happen to be from there.
That may be how you run it, but that is not how the rules work. Knowledge (Local) covers the local knowledge of everywhere.
Want to know the capital of a given US state? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
Want to know popular places around Paris? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
Want to know the important cities of South Africa? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).In each of those above circumstances the called for skill is Knowledge (Local), and there is no mention of any penalties when making Knowledge (Local) checks simply because you don't happen to be from there.
How long would it take to do all of that in your game? Is it instantaneous or does it take seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years, or variations of these units of measure?
While there may not be penalties:
Example: You grow up in the middle of No-Where, Antartica with Houstus and Murial and their dog Courage. Name every local law(s), ruler(s), and popular location(s) in the Americas as a whole, then by nation, then by state (or other sub-region), then by city.
Is that a really easy Knowledge (local) question? DC 10.
If you take a look at his build, there huge are problems. I'm looking at the level 20 build, and first off, his 14/14/14/7/17/7 (20 point buy) is invalid. Assuming that as a human, he put his +2 into Wisdom, he only spent 14. If he put his +2 into any one of his physical traits, he'd end up with 17 out of 20 spent.
Redacted Paragraph:Secondly, he can't take both the Qinggong Monk and Zen Archer archetypes together, as they both replace Diamond Body, Still Mind and Tongue of the Sun and Moon.
Thirdly, his feats are all screwed up. As a level 20 qinggong/zen archer (if it were even valid) human monk, he should have 23 feats, not 21 as listed, and... Stunning Fist is not a special attack and is therefore not a valid selection for Ability Focus.
Redacted Paragraph:In his gear, he'd have to have Bracers of Armour +8, not a Vest of Armour +8 (unless it was custom allowed by his GM), he's got a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 and a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (he cannot wear both, so this must be a custom item), a Ring of Protection +5 (and counterspells; not sure where he got this secondary ability added in) Ring of Evasion (and counterspells; same as before, unless it's custom), and unless the Vest of Armour +8 is allowed by his GM, the Greater Bracers of Archery wouldn't be valid.
His skills and attributes are off, too. His Wisdom only reaches to 32 (not +38), his Fly would only be at +9 (not +17), Heal is +16 (not +17), Perception is +40 (not +41), Sense Motive is +16 (not +17) - he's got all these unaccounted for luck bonuses... And with his +5 hit points every level (choosing skill points so that those line up properly), he's averaging 5.65 hit points per level on a d8 roll. This armour class only reaches to 52 (not 53) with ki, 48 without. That, and his ki pool only goes up to 32, not 33. Plus, no darkvision.
Redacted Paragraph:He only picked 5 of his 11 ki powers so far as I can tell; Ki Arrow, High Jump (bringing his jump to +59, not +71), Perfect Self,...
You can take Qinggong Monk and Zen Archer together, look into the FAQ. "A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities" His skills are insignificant to defeating the monsters itself and therefore most of this scrutiny is pointless. There's a reason why he hasn't picked most of his powers, because he either didn't replace the features or felt it was unnecessary for the build itself.
Not to mention it would almost certainly be knowledge (geography)
And if you took a random common person as ignorant and uneducated as Anzyr from the Middle Ages (or even the 19th century), you would be unlikely to find someone who could name anywhere near that.
The fact that there are less than 200 metropolises on Golarion comes into play once you overcome that obstacle.
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Figured I'd give this a shot.
I'm new to the whole minmaxing thing so I'mma make an easymode wizard. He'll solve each one differently, though - no Vacuum one-trick-pony stuff, not that there's anything wrong with that (and there's no such thing as a one-trick-pony wizard, I think/hope). Moment of Prescience and other buffs will be reused.
He's focused primarily on varied spell use as opposed to crushing targets with a single, exceedingly powerful spell.
Also, no Diviner, because that makes it 2easy.
Old Elven Conjurer (Teleportation) (Opposition Illusion) 20
Ability Scores:
Str 10 (10)
Dex 24 (12 + 2 race + 6 belt + 4 inherent)
Con 20 (11 - 2 race + 6 belt + 5 inherent)
Int 40 (18 + 2 race + 2 age + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 headband/+8 enhancement*)
Wis 13 (11 + 2 age)
Cha 13 (10 + 2 age)
*Idealize + fox's cunning = +8 INT
Skills: Kn(all but nobility) maxed +38, spellcraft maxed +38, perception maxed +25.
HP: 172
AC: 27 (10 + 7 dex + 8 bracers of armor + 2 insight)
Saves: Ref +21 Fort +17 Will +12
Initiative: +19 (+7 dex + 4 compsognathus familar + 4 improved initiative + 2 reactionary + 2 ioun stones)
Caster Level: 21
Overcoming SR: +31, more than sufficient
Traits:
Race: Elven Reflexes
Magic: Magical Lineage (Enervation)
1: Spell Penetration
3: Craft Wondrous Items
5: Extend Spell (Metamagic)
7: Improved Initiative
9: Opposition research (necromancy)
10: Dazing Spell
11: Reach Spell (Metamagic)
13: Idealize (Arcane Discovery)
15: Maximize Spell (Metamagic)
17: Greater Spell Penetration
19: (free slot)
20: Immortality (Arcane Discovery, took while still a laddy, could've done through ioun stones or just age resistance)
0: 4 = 4 -
1: 4+1+4 = 9: -
2: 4+1+3 = 8: -
3: 4+1+3 = 8: -
4: 4+1+3 = 8: dimension door 7 left
5: 4+1+3 = 8: extended greater invisibility (2 slots) X2, baleful polymorph, overland flight
6: 4+1+3 = 8: true seeing, reach icy prison, dazing fireball X3 3 left
7: 4+1+2 = 7: plane shift, maximized enervation X3, reverse gravity 2 left
8: 4+1+2 = 7: maze, mind blank, moment of prescience, trap the soul 3 left
9: 4+1+2 = 7: foresight, imprisonment, winds of vengeance, mass suffocation, prediction of failure, gate 1 left
Wondrous items cost half.
Budget: 880000
- Otherworldly Kimono - 33500
- Headband of Vast Intelligence +6 (Not actually necessary) - 18000
- Belt of Physical Might (Dex, Con) +6 - 45000
- Orange Prism Ioun Stone - 15000
- Pale Green Prism - 15000
- Flawed Pale Green Prism - 14000
- Ring of Evasion - 25000
- Greater Metamagic Rod, Reach - 24500
- Necklace of Adaptation - 4500
- Inherent Bonuses Via Wish - 350000
- Bracers of Armor +8 - 64000
- Gem worth 20000 GP
- True Seeing Ointment - 250
- Permanent featureless demiplane - 17500
- Mundane airtight box - 10?
- Demiplane Tuning Fork - 500
- Ring of invisibility (on familiar) - 20000
Total: 667260
--------------
Battles
Being a genius, it is assumed Slaughterking knows what he is going into.
This fight's easy for the Slaughterking, who has slain many Shoggoths in his long years. Slaughterking has an initiative mod 8 higher than the Shoggoth's. He will start by using his metamagic rod of reach to maze the shoggoth - he can cast underwater thanks to his necklace of adaptation.
Maze does not require a touch attack, and has a range of medium with the reach spell. The Shoggoth's INT is 5, so it takes a full 10 minutes to escape the maze.
As the return of the Shoggoth draws near, Slaughterking will cast several buff spells: True Seeing, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Mind Blank, and finally extended Fox's Cunning (+8 due to the Idealize arcane discovery), raising his INT to 40 for the next 42 minutes. Before the Shoggoth returns, he positions himself to be within 20 feet of it and readies an action to cast Plane Shift.
The Shoggoth is too dumb to anticipate it's return, likely giving Slaughterking a surprise round. He uses his Moment of Prescience to avoid the attack of opportunity he provokes by casting the spell, and Plane Shifts the Shoggoth to an uninhabited area of the prime material plane, where it dies in a burst of energy in about 20 rounds (it needs a natural 1 to fail the save) from overhealing. The Shoggoth has a mere +15 will save, which is not enough to beat the save DC of 32.
Having slain the Shoggoth, the Slaughterking says "WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA" and is transported to the next foe after a quick recasting of moment of prescience and a casting of greater invisibilty.
Round-by-round:
0. Initiative beaten by 8.
1. Reach maze via rod.
2. Wait 9 minutes.
3. Foresight, shared with familiar.
4. Mind blank, shared with familiar.
5. Moment of prescience.
6. Overland flight.
7. Extended greater invisibility.
8. Reach plane shift on shoggoth to positive energy plain. It is dead.
The balor thinks he gets a surprise round. Spoiler: he doesn't. Foresight prevents that, and the Slaughterking beats his initiative by 8. Slaughterking uses his metamagic rod of reach to cast reach imprisonment on the Balor (now immune to the AoO via greater invisibility + mind blank).
Being a genius, the Slaughterking knows stuff about the Balor, inflicting a -4 on the Balor's save. So he must us his will save of +25 (now +21) to beat the DC of 34 on imprisonment. He does not make it and is now imprisoned indefinitely, only able to be returned by freedom. Thoroughly beaten.
"WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA!"
Round-by-round:
0. No surprise round due to foresight, initiative beaten by 8, concealed by greater invisibility + mind blank.
1. Reach imprisonment at -4 by rod.
2. Moment of prescience.
This one looks like toughie. The pit fiend has very solid saves - except for his will - and some very nasty SLAs.
The Slaughterking beats the pit fiend's initiative by 6.
True Seeing lets the Slaughterking see the pit fiend despite the darkness, and mind blank renders the Slaughterking immune to divination effects such as true seeing, meaning his invisibility works. He casts Trap the Soul (that's why he has the gem worth 20k) and says the pit fiend's name, making the DC 35, which the Pit Fiend can't beat with his +18.
Check m8, sonny. The Slaughterking casts Winds of Vengeance.
"WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA!"
Round-by-round:
0. Initiative beaten by 8, concealed by greater invisibility + mind blank.
1. Trap the soul, +2 on the DC.
2. Winds of vengeance.
This one actually is a toughie. The Slaughterking isn't allowed to reuse finishing methods, so trap the soul - one of his best bets - is right out. Also, he already used the Maze tactic.
First off, no surprise round for the Linnorm because of Foresight. The Slaughterking beats its initiative by 7.
However, the Tarn Linnorm can't see him (he still has his Invis for 18 ish round), the Slaughterking is immune to most of the side effects of the Linnorm's breath due to his Necklace of Adaptation. If the Linnorm gets him, he still has a moment of prescience and a ring of evasion.
Taking a page from the Vacuum's book, the Slaughterking casts Mass Suffocation on the Linnorm and then flies back and away, out of the range of the Linnorm's scent. It has a Fort of +24, but has to roll a save 21 times against a DC 34 save - it will roll below a 10 at least ten times, statistically speaking - and it only needs to fail three times, since he won't regenerate from it. On the second round, in which the Linnorm is either staggered or about to fall unconscious, the Slaughterking moves away, uses his school teleport,and then dimension door's away.
Moment of prescience makes the death curse a non-issue.
"WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA!"
Round-by-round:
0. Invisible, cannot be detected and sees the dragon easily.
1. Mass Suffocation.
2. Move + dimension door away.
3-22. Wait for linnorm to die.
Since he comes in invisible and far away, he'll beat the Gold Dragon's perception and get a surprise round.
Fly up to it while invisible and cast icy prison. It will take about 31 damage each round and fall to the ground. The ice will not shatter.
Eventually it will die.
"WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA!"
Round-by-round:
0. Trumps perception, invisible, beats initiative by 20.
1. Reach icy prison.
2. Ice survives the fall, deals 31 damage.
3-14. 31 damage/round, dragon can't escape (+14 STR vs DC 36).
15. Casts improved invisibility.
This bad boy is the toughest. Phenomenal saves, lethal SLAs, casting of a cleric 20, and wish. In summary, we can't let him take a single action.
The Slaughterking beats the angel's initiative by 10 and has a surprise round. He'll open with prediction of failure to make the solar, who saves but is still shaken and sickened for 21 rounds.
He's going to follow it with a dazing fireball (the solar has +10 versus a DC 28, so fails).
The solar still has a really good fort and will, so no save or dies yet. He's going to instead hit it with two maximized enervation and then another dazing fireball. Maximized enervate it again.
The solar is now at a grand total of -16 to all saves and dazed. Promptly cast baleful polymorph into a small turtle (he fails the saves except on a 20) and put it in the airtight box to suffocate.
0. Surprise round, beats initiative by 10, invisible.
1. (Surprise) Prediction of failure.
2. Dazing fireball. Solar fails and gets no turn.
3. Maximized enervation. Solar is dazed.
4. Repeat #3. This is the last round of the dazing.
5. Dazing fireball. Solar is dazed.
6. Repeat #3. Solar is now dazed and at -16 to all saves.
7. Baleful polymorph into a small turtle.
8. Put it in a box and leave it to suffocate.
This guy is a pushover. The Slaughterking beats his initiative by 12 and gets a surprise round.
He's still under the effects of winds of vengeance, so the spines are useless. He's going to open with reverse gravity to lift the Tarrasque and incapacitate it - on a plain, it's unlikely there will be anything to catch himself that he won't tear up with his weight.
The Tarrasque will be hovering around 70 feet above the ground. When there's 5-ish rounds left on the gravity, he'll open a gate to his personal permanent demiplane and let the Tarrasque fall in before immediately closing the gate and sealing the Tarrasque inside. He will then disintegrate the tuning fork.
"WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA WOOOO!"
Round-by-round:
0. Winds of vengeance means immunity to spines. The Slaughterking beats the tarrasque's initiative by 12.
1. He reverses the tarrasque's gravity to raise it into the air.
2-16. Wait patiently.
17. Open gate and wait for it to fall in.
18. Disintegrate the tuning fork.
There. That should all be fine. If something's wrong, tell me.
That may be how you run it, but that is not how the rules work. Knowledge (Local) covers the local knowledge of everywhere.
Want to know the capital of a given US state? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
Want to know popular places around Paris? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
Want to know the important cities of South Africa? DC 10 Knowledge (Local).In each of those above circumstances the called for skill is Knowledge (Local), and there is no mention of any penalties when making Knowledge (Local) checks simply because you don't happen to be from there.
How long would it take to do all of that in your game? Is it instantaneous or does it take seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years, or variations of these units of measure?
While there may not be penalties:
** spoiler omitted **Example: You grow up in the middle of No-Where, Antartica with Houstus and Murial and their dog Courage. Name every local law(s), ruler(s), and popular location(s) in the Americas as a whole, then by nation, then by state (or other sub-region), then by city.
Is that a really easy Knowledge (local) question? DC 10.
It takes the action required. Let's look and see.
Action
Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action (but see “Untrained,” below).
So it takes no action.
@ Kain Darkwind: Sure Knowledge (Geography) would work, but lets check the DC 10 Knowledge (Local)
Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations. Knowledge Local DC 10
So we can know popular locations such as "Washington Monument" in Washington D.C. with a DC 10 Knowledge Local. "The Washington Monument in Washington D.C. should suffice as a description for a greater teleport.
Also, I have no idea exactly how many metropolises there are in Golarion and it might not be 200, but its is certainly not as small as you are making it out to be.
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Know popular locations. Not ALL popular locations. Again, nothing wrong with the concept of "Use Knowledge skills to utilize greater teleport". You take it to a stupid and illogical extreme of "DC 10 to know ALL popular locations in the world, ever. And metropolises are popular locations. So I know all metropolises in the world, of which there must be over two hundred, with a DC 10 check."
Then you take the idea that a relatively low level outsider with greater teleport can do your shopping, assuming you give him a stack of gold (and presumably a bag of holding to carry it in) and a list of what you want and where to go.
And then when your guy never comes back, because he was murdered for the WBL you gave him in a sack, you'll be all aghast at DM-dickery, ignoring the nonsense route you took to get to this place, which is to try and circumvent his restricting of Big 6 wealth to his desired pace rather than yours.
Know popular locations. Not ALL popular locations. Again, nothing wrong with the concept of "Use Knowledge skills to utilize greater teleport". You take it to a stupid and illogical extreme of "DC 10 to know ALL popular locations in the world, ever. And metropolises are popular locations. So I know all metropolises in the world, of which there must be over two hundred, with a DC 10 check."
Then you take the idea that a relatively low level outsider with greater teleport can do your shopping, assuming you give him a stack of gold (and presumably a bag of holding to carry it in) and a list of what you want and where to go.
And then when your guy never comes back, because he was murdered for the WBL you gave him in a sack, you'll be all aghast at DM-dickery, ignoring the nonsense route you took to get to this place, which is to try and circumvent his restricting of Big 6 wealth to his desired pace rather than yours.
I'm sorry that you don't like the rules. But the DC 10 check doesn't change based on your location. It would be deeply beneficial to your argument to actually cite rules that support your position, though I'm afraid that there really aren't any. And "because I don't like it" is not the kind of argument I intend to entertain as a serious intellectual argument.
You can simply have the called outsider locate the item and then teleport there your self. Or only send the gold once the item is located and a deal struck to purchase it. And the GM being a tool, should be called "the GM being a tool". Prior to them being removed and someone else from the group replacing them.
I like slaughterking but her really proves that high level full casters do not need to be all that op to really own the game. He is a good solid build and would be better then the vacuum in a real game but has nothing like the vacuum's trick and yet he can still win this buy having a good selection of SoDs and good init.
Thanks.
Also, please note: I forgot to write fox's cunning in the spells prepared.
Also, if anyone has any idea how to improve the DC on the imprisonment against the Balor, I'd love to hear it.
@Artanthos.
Truefact indeed. Creating someone who would randomly be sent here would be way tougher (just a 20th level PC designed to be normally playable), and probably beyond me.
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@Bobo D
"But the Pit fiend might have spent like a few thousand gold of his FRIGGIN INSANE AMOUNT OF WEALTH on maybe a clone or something..."
Well, the fight is against a pit fiend (not a simulacrum or whatever), and regardless I used trap the soul anyways.
"i really dont see why the INT 23 solar does not uses his at will animate objects to animate the statue of himself and have it walk in first, then send in an illusion, then go from there, using everything at his disposal."
You have the jump on the solar.
"These encounters are way lower CR than what you people claim them to be if you already know exactly what they do first, and they have no room to improvise to beat the tactics that they ALREADY KNOW YOU WILL USE.
-just saying, there should be some room for improv"
Please note, they know only know what you CAN do, not what you WILL do.
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The whole monster spending wealth for these encounters and therefore X couldn't beat beastmass is a bad argument. At their listed CR, they come with the gear listed. IF they spend any more, their CR starts to go up.
The bestiary was made with GM's in mind in that way. Therefore, beastmass is an as is thing.
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Figured I'd give this a shot.
I'm new to the whole minmaxing thing so I'mma make an easymode wizard. He'll solve each one differently, though - no Vacuum one-trick-pony stuff, not that there's anything wrong with that (and there's no such thing as a one-trick-pony wizard, I think/hope). Moment of Prescience and other buffs will be reused.
He's focused primarily on varied spell use as opposed to crushing targets with a single, exceedingly powerful spell.
Also, no Diviner, because that makes it 2easy.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
It was a nice read but you made a mistake and died against the Linnorm. Remember the rules of the Beastmass are any d20 roll results in a 10 so the Linnorm never fails it's save against suffocation. Also though you are invisible and have mind blank up it doesn't protect you from the rules of perception and scent.
It's a flat DC 20 check to pinpoint an invisible creature in combat (25 for the distance) which is auto for the linnorm. He then moves up and attempts to grapples you. His Blindfighting feat lets him Roll twice and gives him a decent chance to succeed. Your Moment won't give you enough to beat his roll of 60 on his grapple check and you can't break his grapple.Dead in a few rounds from that.
I'm sorry that you don't like the rules. But the DC 10 check doesn't change based on your location. It would be deeply beneficial to your argument to actually cite rules that support your position, though I'm afraid that there really aren't any. And "because I don't like it" is not the kind of argument I intend to entertain as a serious intellectual argument.
You can simply have the called outsider locate the item and then teleport there your self. Or only send the gold once the item is located and a deal struck to purchase it. And the GM being a tool, should be called "the GM being a tool". Prior to them being removed and someone else from the group replacing them.
That's just it. It's not the rules. The DC 10 check changes based on the scale of your question, and your anecdotal and frankly irrelevant statement about knowing 200 cities in the Information Age does not change that. Easy questions are DC 10. Hard ones are higher. It says that, in the rules. And all your crying about the DM having NPCs react to your PC as though they were real instead of bundles of stats you make him roll dice for when you kill does not change the fact that you are entirely divorced from what the vast majority of games, including those of the developers, exist as.
No one cares that you play with odd, exaggerated tactics. You're welcome to it. Your issue is that you try to pass it off as "What Pathfinder demands" which is complete and total horsepuck.
@Mathwei ap Niall
From the rules: "Single d20s always result in 10, multiple d20s (like full attacks) go 10-11-9, 10-9-11, and repeat."
I assumed it would fall under the multiple d20s. If not, I'm sure there's a low level spell that could drop his saves - even a double-reached enervation would be fine.
Also, all I would need to change is to instead move away in the first round and use the reach rod on the mass suffocation.
@Bobo D
I agree with you, in part - these fights weren't fair. But in a fair fight, the Slaughterking would still go first - and he still has the WBL for a ring of continuation, so foresight could be made to last all day and just be cast every day. I will remind you, however, that none of the intelligent monsters even got an action, which was my main focus.
I basically assumed that the Slaughterking has effectively "read the beastiary" - that's what high knowledge checks are for (not the basic lore - ask questions like "what spell like abilities does it possess") - . Otherwise, he would have rested between each encounter so as to always go in with a varied set of spells which would allow him to have a good shot at beating any given monster.
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What I really liked about both of your posts is how you each, in your own way, recognized it for what it is: a thought exercise. I had fine with it, I hope you had fun seeing it.
And yes, if they are allowed to be prepared, the Slaughterking would lose against most or all of the intelligent ones. Goodness' sakes, Solaris work directly with the gods, after all!
It's a fun thought exercise and a nice bit of theory craft. Nothing more.
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@Mathwei ap Niall
From the rules: "Single d20s always result in 10, multiple d20s (like full attacks) go 10-11-9, 10-9-11, and repeat."
I assumed it would fall under the multiple d20s. If not, I'm sure there's a low level spell that could drop his saves - even a double-reached enervation would be fine.
Also, all I would need to change is to instead move away in the first round and use the reach rod on the mass suffocation.
I basically assumed that the Slaughterking has effectively "read the beastiary" - that's what high knowledge checks are for (not the basic lore - ask questions like "what spell like abilities does it possess") - . Otherwise, he would have rested between each encounter so as to always go in with a varied set of spells which would allow him to have a good shot at beating any given monster.
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What I really liked about both of your posts is how you each, in your own way, recognized it for what it is: a thought exercise. I had fine with it, I hope you had fun seeing it.
And yes, if they are allowed to be prepared, the Slaughterking would lose against most or all of the intelligent ones. Goodness' sakes, Solaris work directly with the gods, after all!
It's a fun thought exercise and a nice bit of theory craft. Nothing more.
Without a doubt there's a low level spell to do that but doesn't change the results. You use that spell instead, he auto-locates you and moves in to grapple. Now you can't cast or get away and he rips the life out of you.
Your build is dedicated to doing one thing, keeping them from making an action. If you fail and any of these gets a turn they beat you with one action.
Oh and assuming a simple knowledge check can give you the name of some random creature that pops up in front of you is REALLY suspect, especially one of the infinite number of Pit Fiends in existence.
I'm sorry that you don't like the rules. But the DC 10 check doesn't change based on your location. It would be deeply beneficial to your argument to actually cite rules that support your position, though I'm afraid that there really aren't any. And "because I don't like it" is not the kind of argument I intend to entertain as a serious intellectual argument.
You can simply have the called outsider locate the item and then teleport there your self. Or only send the gold once the item is located and a deal struck to purchase it. And the GM being a tool, should be called "the GM being a tool". Prior to them being removed and someone else from the group replacing them.
That's just it. It's not the rules. The DC 10 check changes based on the scale of your question, and your anecdotal and frankly irrelevant statement about knowing 200 cities in the Information Age does not change that. Easy questions are DC 10. Hard ones are higher. It says that, in the rules. And all your crying about the DM having NPCs react to your PC as though they were real instead of bundles of stats you make him roll dice for when you kill does not change the fact that you are entirely divorced from what the vast majority of games, including those of the developers, exist as.
No one cares that you play with odd, exaggerated tactics. You're welcome to it. Your issue is that you try to pass it off as "What Pathfinder demands" which is complete and total horsepuck.
Popular locations in Paris? That is in the rules a DC 10 easy question.
Popular locations in Washington D.C.? That is in the rules as a DC 10 easy question.Popular locations in X place anywhere? Once more... DC 10 Knowledge (Local).
That is the rules.
Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations. Knowledge Local DC 10.
That is not limited to one region, city, or country. DC 10 is the knowledge check required to know the local laws, rules and popular locations in any region, city, in any country.
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Stats at creation before racial adjustments: 14/14/14/12/12/11
Stats after applying human adjustments with level adjustments: 15/19/15/12/12/11
Fighter McFightnington
Male Human Fighter 20
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hero Points 3
Init +11; Senses Perception +21; see invisibility, darkvision 120ft, blind-sense 60ft, superior low-light vision
Defense
AC 52, touch 25, flat-footed 43 (armor +14, shield +8, +9 Dex, natural +5, insight +1); armor master
hp 254 (20d10+140); DR 5/—
Fort +28 Ref +24 Will +18; +12 vs fear.
Immunities
Resistance Acid 30, Fire 30
Offense
Speed 30 ft (6 squares); fly 60ft (average) 15 minutes/day (5 minute increments)
Melee spiked heavy shield +41/+41/+36/+31/+26 melee (1d8+21 plus bull rush plus wounding/19-20x3) and
Melee spiked heavy shield +41/+41/+36/+31 melee (1d8+21 plus bull rush plus wounding/19-20x3)
Ranged composite longbow (+2 str) +37/+32/+27/+22 ranged (1d8+8 plus wounding/x3)
SA rend (1d10+10 plus wounding)
Combat Gear heavy mithral shield w/ mithral spikes (+4, speed, courageous, wounding; +5, bashing, grinding), heavy mithral shield w/ mithral spikes (+4, speed, courageous, wounding; +5, bashing, grinding), mithral full plate (+5, staunching, delving, deathless, defiant [evil outsiders, dragons], grinding, greater energy resistance [fire, acid]), mithral armor spikes (+5, defending, grinding, guardian [enhancement bonus to ac]), composite longbow (+2 str; +1, phase locking, wounding), gloves of dueling
Statistics
Str 24 Dex 28 Con 24 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 11
Base Atk +20 CMB +41 CMD 51
Feats Improved shield bash, weapon focus (heavy spiked shield), shield focus, two-weapon fighting, iron will, weapon specialization (heavy spiked shield), master craftsman, double slice, craft magic arms and armor, greater weapon focus (heavy spiked shield), craft wondrous items, improved two-weapon fighting, endurance, greater weapon specialization (heavy spiked shield), shield master, greater two-weapon fighting, hammer the gap, bashing finish, improved critical (heavy spiked shield), missile shield, shield slam, two-weapon rend
Skills Craft (runes) +24, Intimidate +13, Kn (arcana) +11, Kn (nature) +11, Kn (planes) +11, Perception +21
Traits Divine Favor (+1 on all Luck bonuses), hedge magician
SQ weapon training (close weapons group +4, bows +3, heavy blades +2, thrown +1), weapon master (heavy spiked shield), armor training (1—3), bravery +5
Other Gear Ring of regeneration, ring of freedom of movement, spectral shroud, eyes of the dragon, belt of physical might +6 (Dex, Con), stone of good luck (+1 saves, skill checks, ability checks), crown of conquest (on crit confirmation: You and each of your allies gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks), amulet of natural armor +5 (slotless), amulet of adaptation, cloak of resistance +5, bracelet of second chances (once per round, reduce a critical hit to a regular hit; 7 times then item is useless), pale green prism (ioun stone), flawed pale green prism (ioun stone), dusty rose prism (ioun stone), manuals for physical stats (+3), 240 cold iron arrows, winged boots, efficient quiver (4)
WBL is abused with the fighter crafting all his magic arms and armor and wondrous items.
- Round 1: Shoggoth charges, but fails to hit the fighter, the fighter and Shoggoth are now adjacent to one another. The fighter makes his save against the maddening cacophony.
- Full attack spread: 51,52,45,41,35,52,51,47,40, all attacks hit. Shoggoth is rended at the end and each attack increases damage with hammer the gap.
- 5(25)+4(26)+45+15=289, but shoggoth has DR 10/—, and ends up taking 189 damage.
- Shoggoth has 144hp, then fast healing kicks in bringing it to 154. Shoggoth full attacks the small fighter, but fails to hit. (needs a nat 20)
- The fighter finishes off Shoggoth in the second round with automatic confirming of crits (so the second confirmation roll is actually another crit)
- Upon confirming the crit, Fighter’s crown of conquest activates
- Surprise round goes to the Balor, knowing that most of its SLAs are useless against the Fighter or would do little damage, it tries to take advantage by slicing at the fighter, missing him by a hairs breadth (needing a roll of 12 or higher to hit, it rolls a 10). (IF the balor does hit with a melee attack, it deals 20 damage on average, reduced to 15
- They tie for initiative, resolved by having Fighter go first (higher Dex score and more luck items?), fighter grins “Hello old friend” then begins to full attack the big Balor
- Full attack spread: 51,52,45,41,35,52,51,47,40, all attacks hit. Shoggoth is rended at the end and each attack increases damage with hammer the gap.
- 5(25)+4(26)+45+15=289, with 10 bleed damage a round. Also the Balor is subjected to 9 free bull rush attempts thanks to the fighters build.
- Bull Rush spread 53 (target is now prone), 59, 51, 58, 57, 53 (adding insult to the injuries)
- Because the shields do not over come the damage reduction (+4 enhancement, need a +5 for alignment), the balor takes 154 points of damage plus 10 bleed
- The Balor can try to stand from prone as a move action, the fighter will wait for the Balor to stand. The Balor knows about the fighter and his tactics. If you’re in melee range with this fighter in an enclosed area, opponents will fall.
The pit fiend is causing some problems for Fighter, depending on which one goes first it can swing either way due to wish. If the Pit Fiend already used wish for that year, the straight up fight goes to the fighter, with wish, there are complications like a widened AMF.
The fight with the Linnorm is also a battle of attrition with bleed damage, regeneration, shield bashing. Yes it can fly out of reach, the fighter does have a bow 3 of 4 hits a round with more damage from bleed and other bonuses. It's a long fight with the fighter having a 50/50 chance of being cursed.
The gold dragon fight is also a battle of attrition.
Before I get into the others fights though, would the fighter be able to over come the Pit Fiend with its current build?
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With a fighter, consider critical mastery with stunning critical/staggering critical.
Something along the lines of Cythraul Dig. She's not specifically optimized for Beastmass, I would have to boost her initiative, but she locks down anything she crits.
With a fighter, consider critical mastery with stunning critical/staggering critical.
Something along the lines of Cythraul Dig. She's not specifically optimized for Beastmass, I would have to boost her initiative, but she locks down anything she crits.
Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but don't attack rolls go 10-11-9, 10-9-11, repeat? How do you ever crit in Beastmass? I vaguely remember the magus vs. the pit fiend saying he critted every sixth attack or so, but I don't quite remember how.
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The pit fiend is causing some problems for Fighter, depending on which one goes first it can swing either way due to wish. If the Pit Fiend already used wish for that year, the straight up fight goes to the fighter, with wish, there are complications like a widened AMF.The fight with the Linnorm is also a battle of attrition with bleed damage, regeneration, shield bashing. Yes it can fly out of reach, the fighter does have a bow 3 of 4 hits a round with more damage from bleed and other bonuses. It's a long fight with the fighter having a 50/50 chance of being cursed.
The gold dragon fight is also a battle of attrition.
Before I get into the others fights though, would the fighter be able to over come the Pit Fiend with its current build?
Yeah, AMF is one of the advantages that monsters have against PC's, there's not much you can do about it other than run and come back. Because of that wish, beastmass really does turn into a initiative race, but I guess thats true for encounters in the high levels.
Few questions about the challenge.
1. In any of the combats are the PCs considered buffed before the challenge begins? If no normal buffs, what about buffs that last for hours or days? Things that any caster of that level would be expected to have cast far before hand.
2. Are the PCs suppose to use starting wealth for a level 20 character? Is there anyway to put a value on artifacts?
3. What other preperations could the PCs make? Could they for example have used Planar Binding to get a Succubus' Profane Gifts or other deals made via Planar Binding as long as they are fit within what such powers specifically allow?
Also to clarify, customized magic items are apparently allowed as long as they follow the explicit rules laid out in the Core Rulebook magic item creation section...am I right? It would seem that way since the original monk has some of these.
omplete and total horsepuck.Popular locations in Paris? That is in the rules a DC 10 easy question.
Popular locations in Washington D.C.? That is in the rules as a DC 10 easy question.
Popular locations in X place anywhere? Once more... DC 10 Knowledge (Local).That is the rules.
Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations. Knowledge Local DC 10.
That is not limited to one region, city, or country. DC 10 is the knowledge check required to know the local laws, rules and popular locations in any region, city, in...
Looks from evaluation of text to text itself.
Yep. I stand by my assessment. You live in a land of make believe about a land of make believe. There's almost no one who would support your definition. You act as though the player gets to set the question. You act as if you can break up a hard question into multiple simple questions that are the sum of its parts to avoid the higher DC. It's cute, it's a nice little attempt at squirming through a manufactured loophole, but it's still bunk. Bunk that nearly everyone recognizes as such.
Without a doubt there's a low level spell to do that but doesn't change the results. You use that spell instead, he auto-locates you and moves in to grapple. Now you can't cast or get away and he rips the life out of you.
As I said, teleport away in the first round (conjurer swift does not provoke). Also, if the Slaughterking maxes stealth he'll have +29 (+49 while invisible) which, plus distance mods, trumps the linnorm's perception. That plus a move means the linnorm has no idea where the Slaughterking is.
Next round, he uses his reach rod to mass suffocate it, so it fails on the 9's in the 9-10-11 array. If that doesn't use the 9-10-11 array, he enervates it, or one of a thousand other things.
Your build is dedicated to doing one thing, keeping them from making an action. If you fail and any of these gets a turn they beat you with one action.
Probably. The trick is not to fail.
Oh and assuming a simple knowledge check can give you the name of some random creature that pops up in front of you is REALLY suspect, especially one of the infinite number of Pit Fiends in existence.
DC 10 + Creatures HD + up to 10 at GM's discretion. This takes a month of research, but again, the Slaughterking knows what he's going in to.
Also, he could very well bind a succubus to get an additional +1 on his DCs. Moment of prescience would effectively guarantee success. If he follows this with trap the soul, he is at 0 risk as the succubus is in stasis and cannot end the profane gift.
Few questions about the challenge.
1. In any of the combats are the PCs considered buffed before the challenge begins? If no normal buffs, what about buffs that last for hours or days? Things that any caster of that level would be expected to have cast far before hand.
2. Are the PCs suppose to use starting wealth for a level 20 character? Is there anyway to put a value on artifacts?
3. What other preperations could the PCs make? Could they for example have used Planar Binding to get a Succubus' Profane Gifts or other deals made via Planar Binding as long as they are fit within what such powers specifically allow?
Also to clarify, customized magic items are apparently allowed as long as they follow the explicit rules laid out in the Core Rulebook magic item creation section...am I right? It would seem that way since the original monk has some of these.
I think it could be safe to assume that the PC(s) know the encounters that they will face, but not in which order they might face. Unless the PC in question is going after specific individuals.
Give the PC a day to get their affairs in order, then an hour before the first fight to buff. It looks like fights take place one after the other as soon as one creature is defeated, but if your worried about over powering buffs, make it harder and assume 2 to 3 hours pass between encounters.
From looking at the OP, it looks like the PC(s) can use anything except 3rd PP material for their character (even templates), I haven't seen really anything that says otherwise.
I'm trying to make a more appropriate Beastmass challenge with a baseline CR of 25 or greater for each encounter, as well as using dice rolls and multiple tries to get a 60% win rate at least before calling a challenge a win.
A properly built Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer could rock all of those challenges pretty easy than, they don't even need to go first most of the time.
Taking Defensive Strategist so the surprise fights don't matter so much, you can use Emergency Forcefield on the fights where you are going to get charged first round, and use Headband of Counterspelling to stop the Wish from the Pit Fiend. Also contingency Borrowed Time.
Go heavy Necro focus and just Spell Perfection Thanatopic Finger of Death everything to death with DC in the 40s.
If you are really worried about it you could even throw a persistent meta on there from a rod, or Quickened Enervate them first.
Rinse repeat.
It's not that hard to have ridiculous saves if you are a charisma based character too. You could make a magic item of continuous Bestow Favor and make sure you have that handy Freedom of Movement ring.
You could even have several Headbands of Counterspelling on hand to switch out between fights.
Generous use of metamagic rods and gloves of storing would let you pull off some great effects.
All of that before I even factor in the Leadership feat and the possibilities of having a pocket 18th level crafting wizard cut the costs of all of the magic items by more than half...with that many extra resources 20th level Sorcerers are unstoppable.
But then again, with enough prep time, there are almost no encounters in the game that a level 20 Arcane Sorcerer can't take out.
Mythic would be an issue, just because of Mythic Counterspelling...
How about a new trick without using arcane casters at all?
Then without divine casters with 9th level spells?
Then without casters entirely?
Just as PCs mind you or cohorts.