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andrew, in regards to the balor not having the spellcraft to know what items you have, it's specified in the rules that he has foreknowledge of the character's abilities. Given this, he'd probably use Greater Dispel Magic on the ring of freedom of movement during his surprise round, meaning if he ever gets a single attack in against Jadis (opportunity or otherwise) he can hit her with his whip (on a 7, assuming no PA or TWF), automatically getting a grapple attempt. He's by no means guaranteed this, but since he does succeed on an 11 vs. dragon's breath, we should at least look at it, especially since you had mentioned 'worst case scenario'. If he does get the attack off, at +33 CMB vs 30 CMD, this could be serious bad news bears, with Jadis needing a 52 or higher on her concentration check to cast a 9th level spell when grappled, and the balor not gaining the grappled condition.
Quite cool build though, much less of a one trick pony than The Vacuum.
EDIT: @ Lawful, The Vacuum's opposition schools don't matter, as he only needs his 7 mass suffocations, contingency, resist energy, and greater invisibility to do what he needs to. We can go with enchantment and illusion as opposition, in which case he simply prepared the invisibility with two spell slots to set up his contingency. In Pathfinder, especially with the number of spell slots a 20th level wizard with 40 int has to work with, opposition schools are rather negligible.
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Actually, double-checking the rod of absorption and the dispel magic rules, it looks like a GDM cast on any of your items would be absorbed by the rod, so you're in the clear there. To be absorbed by the rod the dispel would need to be single-targeted, but using the burst effect ignores magic items, so that doesn't work either. I'm pretty sure you can't even dispel the rod itself, since that activates it.
Gnarly, gnarly item, though probably at its best in this kind of optimization game.
I'm getting tempted to make my own submission for this. I think I'd end up making an enchantment focused kitsune sorcerer. He'll be neutral aligned so that protection spells won't protect anyone from his domination and insane spell DCs (which will be around DC 42 for Dominate Monster I think). Only the Tarrasque is actually immune to mind affecting spells unless I'm mistaken.
He would use persistent dominate monster on each enemy one by one until he assembled them into a small army that would kill the Tarrasque for him. Then he would order the survivors to tear each-other apart one by one.
I'm getting tempted to make my own submission for this. I think I'd end up making an enchantment focused kitsune sorcerer. He'll be neutral aligned so that protection spells won't protect anyone from his domination and insane spell DCs. Only the Tarrasque is actually immune to mind affecting spells unless I'm mistaken.
He would use dominate monster on each enemy one by one until he assembled them into a small army that would kill the Tarrasque for him. Then he would order the survivors to tear eachother apart one by one.
The Shoggoth is an Ooze so would be immune as well.
The Solar and the Pit Fiend could both Wish/Miracle for Mind Blank as well as the previosuly mentioned AMF tactic.
I did look at the Kitsune first but its a bit too one trick for me and misses out on all of those lovely extra spells known which significantly narrows down the situations you can deal with.
The Shoggoth is not immune since only oozes without intelligence scores are immune to mind effecting spells. It is immune to charm effects, but not compulsion effects.
Mind blank only gives a +8 bonus to saves (which isn't necessarily enough to save them), but an AMF is definitely an issue. It would basically depend on who goes first at that point.
It would basically depend on who goes first at that point.
Which is why The Vacuum sucks so well :D
Honestly, I think it's been established that using the right Save or Lose spells with high enough DCs beats these monsters like it does anything else. Let's try to come up with a non-caster build that can still handle Beastmass.
I have a feeling a Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker could beat this, but I'm too lazy to do all them maths.
Alright, presenting The Vacuum. He's pretty damn squishy, but as best I can tell he can take down each of the big bads, one after another, with absolutely no rest, even assuming all of the bad guys get 15s on their rolls, and he gets 5s. He took some work, and there were several places where I may have made mistakes, so please give feedback. This might not be entirely in the spirit of the competition, but I think by the RAW of this challenge, The Vacuum succeeds.
** spoiler omitted **...
What are the two Eldrich heritage feats?
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@ andrew, unfortunately moment of prescience doesn't give a bonus to initiative.
@ Lawful, Woops, that's a typo, the first one should be Fiendish Heritage.
Anyways, I think I have a new contender, and one with zero levels in casting classes to boot.
Presenting Gatling the Minuscule: He's More of a Blower than a Sucker.
Gatling the Minuscule
Goblin Wild Rager 2 / Weapon Master 4 / Musket Master 14
Str 5 (7 base -2 size)
Dex 40 (18 base +4 race +5 level +5 manual +6 belt +2 size)
Con 20 (14 base +6 belt)
Int 9 (7 base, +2 ioun stone)
Wis 26 (16 base + 6 headband, +4 manual)
Cha 7
HP: 229
AC: 51 (10 + 15 dex + 2 size + 4 deflection + 5 natural + 6 armor + 7 shield + 1 dodge +1 insight)
Initiative: +24 (+1 competence, +15 dex, +2 trait, +4 imp. initiative, +2 gunslinger initiative)
Traits:
Reactionary
Indomitable Faith
Saves:
Fort: 9+3+4 16+5+5+1 +27
Ref: 9+0+1 10+5+15+1 +31
Will: 4+0+1 5+5+8+1+2 +22 (24 raging)
Skills:
Perception: +46 (20 ranks, +3 class skill, +6 skill focus, +4 alertness, +4 race, +8 wisdom, +1 competence)
UMD: +22 (20 ranks, -2 charisma, +4 magical aptitude)
Relevent Class Abilities:
Rage
Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
Wild Fighting
Rapid Reloader
Grit
Gunslinger Initiative
Fast Musket
Lightning Reload
Weapon Training (Firearms)
50 Dry Load Cartridges 2,100
500 Paper Cartriges 6,000
+5 Haramaki 25,003
+5 Mithral Buckler 25,005
+5 Amulet of Nat. Armor 50,000
+4 Ring of Deflection 50,000
+5 Cloak of Resistance 25,000
+5 Distance D.B. Musket 72,000
+5 Dex Manual 137,000
+4 Wis Manual 110,000
+6 Wis Headband 36,000
+6 Belt of Physical Might 90,000
Rod of Absorption 50,000
Ring of Evasion 25,000
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40,000
Gloves of Dueling 15,000
Bracers of Falcon's Aim 4,000
Reduce Person 2,500
Crk. Pale Green Prism 4,000 +1 saves
Iridescent Spindle 18,000 breathing unnecessary
Dark Blue Rhomboid 10,000 Alertness
Flawed Crimson Sphere 16,000 +2 intelligence (and 20 UMD skill ranks)
Dusty Rose Prism 5,000 +1 AC
Crk. Dusty Rose Prism 500 +1 initiative
2x Wand of Dimension Door 42,000
Muleback Cords 1,000
861,108 gp out of 880,000 gp spent.
Attacks:
Double barrel musket fires twice with every attack, 4 base iterative attacks, 1 from haste, 1 from rapid shot, 1 from wild fighting, for a total of 14 bullets.
+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23
Attack: +38 (+20 BAB, +14 dex, +3 weapon training, +6 reckless abandon, +5 weapon, +1 bracers, +1 weapon focus, +2 size, -2 wild fighting, -2 rapid shot, -6 deadly aim, -4 double barrel, -1 shield, +1 haste)
+4 on attack rolls to confirm critical hits
Damage: 44.5 (1d8 + 15 dex, + 3 musket training, + 3 weapon training, + 5 weapon, + 12 deadly aim, +2 weapon specialization) (+1 more within 30 ft.)
Average Damage (assuming everything hits): 714 (91 of this is from hammer the gap, though it's not super necessary) (728 within 30 ft.)
Feats:
Fighter Bonus 1st: Weapon Focus
Fighter Bonus 2nd: Point Blank Shot
Fighter Bonus 4th: Rapid Shot
Gunslinger Bonus 1st: Rapid Reload (Musket), Gunsmithing
Gunslinger Bonus 4th: Deadly Aim
Gunslinger Bonus 8th: Hammer the Gap
Gunslinger Bonus 12th: Point Blank Master
Ioun Stone: Alertness
1st Dodge
3rd Precise Shot
5th Weapon Specialization
7th Skill Focus (Perception)
9th Iron Will
11th Improved Initiative
13th Quick Draw
15th Clustered Shots
17th Shield Focus
19th Magical Aptitude
Alright, let's see how our 18 inch tall hero fares against the biggest and baddest of the bestiary. When he isn't in combat, Gatling makes sure to always have his Wand of Dimension door and his Rod of Absorption in his hands, dropping them for his double barreled musket (with Quick Draw) when needed.
Round 1: Gatling vs. The Shoggoth
Gatling wins initiative and uses his wand to dimension door into the shoggoth's squares, preventing it from trampling him. He automatically saves vs. the cacophony. The shoggoth takes its turn, but is unable to hit our intrepid hero without natural 20s. On Gatling's next turn he draws his musket (loaded with Dry-Load paper cartridges), clicks his heels together, rages, and unloads 14 rounds into the shoggoth's slimy face(s), for an average of 718 damage including DR. He's attacking vs. touch AC of 15, so he hits even with his lowest iterative. Flawless victory.
Round 2: Gatling vs. The Balor
The poor balor suffers the same problem that he he did vs. Jadis, which is his only spell-like capable of bypassing the Rod of Absorption (Fire Storm) is fully evaded on a 2 from Gatling. Since Gatling is flatfooted, the balor's best bet is to simply attack with his longsword +33, hitting on a 2, but he is unable to grapple due to Gatling's ring, and he doesn't do much damage without a full attack. Gatling wins initiative after the surprise round, drops his rod and wand for his gun, and raging hastily fires. The demon (touch AC 20) has no chance, and Gatling saves vs. its death throes on a 2.
Round 3: Gatling vs. The Pit Fiend
Gatling has darkvision, so he knows what he's aiming at. There is no surprise round, and even if Gatling gets a 5 while the pit fiend gets a 15, he'll go first. Gatling drops the rod and wand, draws his gun, activates his haste, gets mad, and shoots at the fiend's flatfooted AC of 29, hitting with enough shots (assuming he rolls all 5s) to deal around 585 damage, post DR.
Round 4: Gatling vs. The Linnorm
The linnorm gets a surprise round, during which its best bet is probably to use its breath weapon, which Gatling evades on a 2. Gatling wins initiative and fires back, using his normal routine as well as all 8 of his grit points to make his last 4 attacks hit vs. touch AC within 60 ft. Assuming he has rolled all 5s, this works out to a measly 548 after DR, still enough to KO the beasty. Gatling will succeed on his save vs. the death curse on a 5, but even if he fails this will have no impact on Beastmass overall.
Round 5: Gatling vs. The Dragon
This one initially seemed quite tricky, but it turned out that pumping perception was the way to go. With a +46 perception as a tiny creature vs. +40 and gargantuan, Gatling spots the dragon before it sees him, and uses his surprise round to Dimension Door (succeeding his UMD even in the case of a -2 from Frightful Presence) right onto its head. While this is alarming for the dragon, it does not have much time to be concerned as 14 bullets are fired directly into the top of its skull vs. touch AC 5. Gatling uses his second wand of Dimension Door to return safely to the ground.
Round 6: Gatling vs. The Solar
Gatling gets a surprise round, which he simply uses to run forward 20 feet. On his actual turn he does like does, and shoots the angel to death. Man these guys all have crap touch AC.
Round 7: Gatling vs. The Tarrasque
Gatling starts 20 ft. away, he uses his surprise round to yell gobliny insults and shoot once to get the beast's attention, since they are 6 size categories apart. This shot only does around 30 damage, but the 14 immediately afterwards total up to well over the tarrasque's full hp, knocking him out enough to not regain consciousness within the round. Gatling then pumps his remaining bullets into it, and goes off to find Limburger's tarrasque-beating orc posse, to whom he gives the rest of his worldly wealth, his life's purpose fulfilled.
Total resources used: 7 rounds of rage, 7 rounds of haste, 3 charges off of D.D. wands, 8 grit points, a whole lot of awesome.
Note: With a 19-20/x2 threat range, a x4 critical multiplier, and +4 to confirm criticals, Gatling's expected DPR is actually higher than presented in these examples. Here it doesn't matter at all, but it is quite badass.
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I think people are underestimating what some of these creatures can do quite greatly.
Balor - Having Greater Teleport at will means he is not sticking around to talk if he is outgunned. And since he knows when he's outgunned his first action is to GT away. Once away, he can sell any of his items (worth a fortune) in order to buy ANY ITEMS HE NEEDS TO TAKE OUT YOUR OLD SETUP THANKS TO HIS +31 UMD. A couple good ones versus the gunman would be things to boost his touch AC or to make him impervious to his bullets, like a scroll or two of fickle winds. Since our hero is only working with D-Door to travel, this balor moves way faster, as such can accomplish these tasks way quicker. A scroll of fickle winds pretty much shuts down the gunman for all intensive purposes. Or better yet a couple scrolls of greater invis. Our hero can't even see invis (as far as I can tell), which means we just show up invis and wait for our stuff to crit recasting Ginvis whenever its about to run and laugh as we beat you into submission only to follow up with your family.
Edit - Against Andreww the balor goes right for a scroll of AMF and proceeds to do the same thing to you, it uses its surprise round to tele away, sells whichever item it wants, buys a scroll of amf and greater invis, uses the invis, teleports back to the location of the combat however 200 yards straight above it (outside reach of your arcane sight if you casted it during the time he was gone) then moves in to just out of arcane sight range, casts AMF on himself and moves in. While he's inside the AMF, he pretty much proceeds to pound your face. - This fight is tougher for the balor then the gunslinger as Andreww is a very competent spellcaster as well and it could turn quite quickly into a "who is more creative with their time away" battle, as frequently seen in the R-L-P discussion.
Edit x 2 - All the Shenanigans that the balor can perform is because he is aware of what you can do ahead of time. This means he could call his pal joe the traveling demon merchant, have a pre planned sale of his items set up ahead of time. He chooses not to sell his stuff previously (because he needs to be baseline) because he doesn't believe you're going to be able to kill his bro the shoggoth. When he's proven wrong and you do show up he teleports to his buddy joe, swaps the items that round, then does everything I've already explained. This greatly helps to narrow down the amount of time it takes to set all this up for him. It also makes it more difficult for you to have a contingency set up.
I think people are underestimating what some of these creatures can do quite greatly.
I was assuming the lack of teleporting to be part of the established rules, under the no running category, (especially since neither of the bad beasties used their teleports vs. One in the initial Beastmass). If teleporting is allowed, this opens up a bunch more problems, allowing any characters with a Helm of Teleportation or similar to simply leave, pay casters to buff the absolute hell out of them, get new items just for that combat, even bring allies in to help fight, which all seem to be against the spirit of Beastmass. If teleport was truly a problem for Gatling, an alternate build could be created with reduced damage output (probably still enough to 1-shot everything) taking 10 levels of fighter and feats like Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Snapshot and Teleport Tactician, perhaps using a Phase Locking gun.
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I hate to be a stickler but a couple of things, first I will address:
Jehova - Teleporting is infact encouraged as per the rules. In the solars description it says he planeshifts away to buff if needed. This means that as long as the combat resumes (not permanently ending) then teleporting is perfectly fine. Thats alot of feats you've swapped out and lost lots of the class abilities of your Gunslinger. Maybe remake him and resubmit if this current iteration doesn't make the cut.
Andreww - I agree with you about the solar being the most dangerous, however he doesn't get an instant surprise round which basically means GG to him because you get 2 turns to his 0 if you can kill him in that time.
As I already stated in my post your character is a full caster as such has more potential to beat the balor then the gunslinger. However, you just casted 2 spells on your initial turn, discern location, and see invisiblity. Infact, you casted see invis without even seeing him go invis. I already explained how the balor has the shopping set up pre combat (as per rules) thus only taking 6 seconds to do so. This would give you 1 round to cast 1 spell. Probably discern location, which would be worthless as he would be upon you next round. As I already stated, I'm 99% certain this battle would delude into a "who does the most useful out of combat thing" which I'm also 99% certain would end up being the 20 caster.
As for your explanation of how the balor would just attack from an RP perspective I'm calling BS. In the Balor write up " A balor reduced to fewer than 50 hit points almost always seeks to flee via teleportation, but if that and flight prove impossible it seeks to position itself such that, if it is slain, its death throes are as devastating as possible to the enemy host." It's tactic is to run away if outgunned, if it knows it's outgunned from the beginning it only seems logical it would do some preparation. Especially since this is the general of the armies of the abyss, not some mindless baby finger eating babau.
I was simply giving an example of how everyone was under judging tactics of these mobs. In my opinion if the solar had a surprise round and equal character wealth, he would kill every one of these characters.
Finally, if this is just an exercise in "tough character builds" why even bother when we did 9 months of this with R-L-P and the builds were FAR more effective then what is being posted now, no offense to the people building, these are excellent starts, it's just those were tailored by 3 forums worth of people over several months and were polished and ready. Cool character builds are awesome, and giving them a challenge if even better, but lets be realistic about this challenge, I would say its achievable by any class who properly spends character wealth. This includes straight 20 fighter builds. Especially if we continue the assumption that teleporting away = a nono.
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Rage Lance Pounce is a character build that came across here sometime, while it is near impossible to find the original iteration of the build there are numerous variants of it kicking around. It is said to be a Barbarian that is unkillable by ANY caster. The point of it is essentially a barbarian, raging, riding a mount with pounce, using a lance. This thread should help you out some.
The goblin is tiny because he has an item of reduce person, 2500gp cost, custom created using CRB.
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Andreww - I totally agree with you, I missed the permanent see invis on your sheet, my bad if it was there. I agree with your wall of force, but his solution would be a scroll of mages dis (which he could fail, so he'd also need a umd item, all which he could afford if he sold one of his weps). Like I said, this battle would turn into a "who can prep better!" and you would ultimately win with your higher PC wealth and your 20 caster levels.
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@ Sarf: Gatling is actually tiny due to a permanent Reduce Person spell, since custom items aren't allowed in the challenge.
I was wrong about monsters not using teleport, I had forgotten about the solar. Assuming that the balor uses his surprise round to leave and buff, what items/services exactly could he grab that would make ensure can defeat Gatling, keeping in mind that he only has a +1 unholy longsword, +1 flaming whip, and 41,000 gp in other stuff to barter with? Also, this means that if Gatling swaps out a few items (one of his wands and dropping the Belt of Physical Might for one of dex only), and gets a Helm of Teleportation, then in the round after the demon disappears he too can teleport, and go hire somebody to scry the area (letting him know when the demon comes back, so he can teleport right next to it) as well as getting buffed.
This is all just a thought exercise and a 'make a character who can _______' challenge, and the rules are arbitrary. Past a certain point, if we start looking at every conceivable possibility for winning, things get even more super-specific to these encounters than they already are (which is a lot) and much of the 'badass character' aspect is lost.
Fore example, if we assume that teleportation is legal for the balor, but not Gatling, it would be possible to take leadership with a maximized initiative diviner cohort, Gatling and he both with the Lookout teamwork feat, and Gatling with a Phase-locking gun. If that is the only way you believe Gatling would overcome the challenge, feel free to assume that build (he can drop the Distance and a +1 of enhancement for the Phase-Locking with no appreciable issues). I don't really like this because once leadership enters into it, it's a much different challenge. Like you and I agree, we need to assume some very arbitrary rules to make this interesting.
Edit: @ Lawful, The Vacuum has the Arcane bloodline, purely for the purpose of picking up the School Power bloodline power. Yes, he spent 4 feats and has a 17 in charisma purely for that +2 to necromancy DCs.
Gatling went Wild Rager 2 / Weapon Master 4 / Musket Master 14, as it's written in his description. If there's a prerequisite problem somewhere, let me know, it can probably be fixed since he has many feats with low requirements, full BAB progression, and he only needs to be viable at 20th level :P
Jehova - My bad about the permanency reduced person, also my bad about the lack of custom items, don't know why we'd have a challenge like this without custom items but still allow things like permanency since their both core rule book things defined by DM fiat.
To defeat Gatling he falls victim to the fickle winds debacle that the original monk fell victim to. The only issue here is that gatling can occupy the balors square which gives him a way around this. This means the balor in my opinion would be best off using a greater invis scroll. You currently do not have a way to deal with it. You of course can rectify both of these situations by changing your item selection/build slightly.
Every strategy you create, or every thing you change will create a new hole in your idea. You posted a build, balor killed it, you changed build balor will adapt to kill it. I do not think it's possible for you to create a build that can handle anything the balor can do UNLESS you to resort to using the balors exact tactics. In which case, highest character wealth/best caster will win. I already stated this previously in my post to andreww.
As far as leadership goes, that is the simplest way to win this challenge. I'm glad nobody tried to use it, as yes, rage-lance-pounce would dominate this. A barbarian riding a summoner? A wizard following his bro BSF into battle?
All I was trying to explain was this challenge isn't very difficult. Any Class combination can do it with proper item purchases as the majority of the abilities you guys are using is coming from item purchases (except full casters who are just casting the spells themselves.) Any class can get to 50 AC/28+ all saves/ mediocre DPR 100+ (all thats neeeded for the challenge, enough to slowly kill the tarassque while still only getting hit maybe once or twice)/UMD 30/Rod of Absorption/high init. I'm 99% sure having all those pre reqs on any class will pretty much auto win this challenge.
If you want to really test min/maxing characters out make it so that the monsters always roll 20's you always roll 2's and monsters get the surprise round, then make it so there is none of that teleporting shenanigans (even for the solar) and see what happens from there. I bet alot of the characters proposed wouldn't do so well then. However I still believe there are builds that would make it.
Edit - My proposed min/maxing rules:
Monsters Considered to Roll 19's for everything (5% chance of rolling a 1-20, still factored in - no 1's for saves as this can create random save or die scenarios which should rarely occur)
Players Considered to Roll 2's for everything (5% chance of rolling a 1 or 20, still factored in - no 1's for saves as this can create random save or die scenarios which should rarely occur)
Same Fields as Offered, there is always a surprise round in the monsters favor (but some classes can still act during these)
Teleportation spells can be used, however, you must teleport within the area of the arena offered.
No Pre Buffs, No rests, next combat begins immediately after the last opponent is defeated, all area of effect spells/abilities/effects are dispelled immediately after an opponent dies and you instantly teleport to the new locale.
**Bonus points** if you make the monsters first roll the 20, and your last roll the 20. EG( Monster - 20,18x19,1, 20, 18x19....etc/You - 1, 18x2,20, 1, 18x2,20....etc.) Obviously not exploiting this so that your 20th attack is something that would usually miss. Reseting the count for each monsters obviously.
As well I propose adding a Star-Spawn of Cthulu to the list. His overwhelming mind ability can prove super deadly to some characters. I propose adding him in the same area as the shoggoth, immediately after the shoggoth dies.
Hmm. Well, I do think there are ways for Gatling to be able to handle the balor (such as the teleporting away, scrying in, and changing tactics accordingly), but I think at this point it doesn't really matter, as the fact that he can beat it according to the proposed rules (using leadership) means we're looking at a new challenge, no longer Beastmass.
Anyhow, Gatling was my attempt to make a fully martial character who could win this arbitrary challenge, and I wanted to make a gunslinger because the idea of firing 7 rounds every three seconds with a musket was very amusing to me. My original build (The Vacuum) certainly defeats the balor with no teleportsy shenanigans possible (even if it rolls a 19 on everything).
There's not really any way of knowing at which point proposed ideas start violating the original ideas of the challenge (can we call a cleric of a Lawful Good deity to cast one of those high-powered miracles against the balor?), since the basis of this thread was copy/pasted from the made up trial that one guy put his Zen Archer through, which was hardly an acid optimization test, as many, many, people have point out.
I still think assuming rolls of 5 for you and 15 for your opponents is fine for purposes of this sort of challenge. In your proposed min/maxing rules, is this vs. the same seven opponents, with the same starting spacing and environments? If the plan is to make a new test for 20th level character optimization, I suggest we create it from scratch, since as far as I know this was put together to showcase the power and versatility of a single build.
Well crap, I have no idea how I did that with the bonus feats. I think for some reason I assumed spell focus had some allowance? Well, the Vacuum is still okay, he needs to swap his metamagic feats in the main feat list with bonus ones, and he'll probably need to drop the entire Eldritch Heritage chain to make everything fit, which would free up 4 non-bonus feat slots for only a -2 save DC, so the tarrasque would still fail the save on a 15 within 30 ft. The level one Eldritch Heritage is supposed to have been Fiendish Heritage, I think someone's already mentioned that.
Let's revisit the fact that the build is illegal. Qinggong and Zen Archer don't stack. Here's why:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR ALTER the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.
Here's a link to the reference.
Qinggong ALTERS almost all of the core abilities by giving you the option to select other things in their place. Even if you take the same power you would have otherwise received, the fact that you didn't have to take it means it has been altered from the core ability.
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No, qingong alters only the class features you wish to replace, IF you wish to replace them. If you change only the class feature that no other archetype replaces, then it is legal.
We've been there a thousand times before, and it's the universal interpretation, including among rules lawyers. Paizo has never made a move to counter it, pretty much making the qinggong a patch for the monk intended to grant it more flexibility in sucky class features even with another archetype.
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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Gui de
In the linked thread, the OP demonstrates how a 20th level Zen Archer Quiggong Monk is able to defeat a Shoggoth, Balor, Pit Fiend, Tarn Linnorm, Ancient Gold Dragon, Solar Angel and the Tarrasque in succession with only one rest period to regain abillities, Ki etc.
He then proceeds to ask if any other class could triumph over it as his Zen Archer could.
So here is my challenge: can any of you build a 20th level character of any class, race and archetype combo to triumph over these seven beasts with only one rest period?
Builds must be 20 point buy but can include any feat, spell, item, trait etc from anything published by Paizo.
Builds should be as descriptively full as possible as per the linked example.
These are the fight rules regarding dice rolls
End Quote
A fighter was made that easily defeated a balor using core only a long time ago. You should also remember that a CR 20 monster that is fighting a level 20 character is not all that scary anymore. CR is always relative to the level of the character.
Also I think the silver dragon is actually a tougher fight. It can hit an AC in the 60's IIRC.
We've been there a thousand times before, and it's the universal interpretation, including among rules lawyers.
This is hardly accurate and nothing more than your personal conjecture (yes, it is shared by others, but no, it is far from "universal").
Paizo has never made a move to counter it
Paizo has also never made a move to support your interpretation either.
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I am accurate. You are quoting a passage which clearly says that if an archetype alters a class feature, then this archetype cannot stack with another doing the same. FYI, all archetype class features have a mention saying "This ability replaces X" or "This ability modifies X". If they don't, then this ability does not alter any of the base class's abilities.
Now please quote me the part where it says the qinggong powers replaces or modifies the appropriate class feature. Because the only relevant part in this argument saying something about this is the following quote:
A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
The only thing being altered is "the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power".
If the monk does not give up this class ability ? Then this class ability is not altered in any way, and by RAW, another archetype may replace this class feature as normal.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
on teleporting: i thought it was already under the rules of engagement that teleporting away was to be no more than two rounds or it constitutes running away.
@lawful: search 'AM BARBARIAN' to begin your wondrous journey to the land of the ragelancepounce. you will either greatly enjoy it or you will cry that Ultimate Combat ruins everything forever because muh caster superiority.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who cares if it works -- that's just cool.Presenting Gatling the Minuscule:
Goblin Wild Rager 2 / Weapon Master 4 / Musket Master 14
It's not broken. Broken means its a problem for everyone. I would have no problem with it.