Why people keep repeating that at high levels there is no hope to reliable succeed with a combat maneuver?


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I do not undestand it, it is simple not true for most combat maneuvers.


Because CMD's shoot through the roof at high levels with Large or bigger creatures.

Sure they're still possible if you get the Feats for them, but they're still pretty hard to pull off.

Silver Crusade

And good luck grappling that flying demon or dragon. First you have to get to it.


Rynjin wrote:

Because CMD's shoot through the roof at high levels with Large or bigger creatures.

Sure they're still possible if you get the Feats for them, but they're still pretty hard to pull off.

I disagree, at higher levels even a unbuffed character can have a more than aceptable CMB for several combat maneuvers.


Fromper wrote:
And good luck grappling that flying demon or dragon. First you have to get to it.

I am talking more about the CMB Vs CMD mechanics.

Silver Crusade

Nicos wrote:
Fromper wrote:
And good luck grappling that flying demon or dragon. First you have to get to it.
I am talking more about the CMB Vs CMD mechanics.

So am I. You face a lot more flying creatures at higher levels. CMB doesn't matter if you're not in a situation to even attempt to use it.

That said, with a potion of fly, grappling might still become an option. Tripping doesn't work against flyers, though.

The moral of the story is to have a backup plan, for when you can't use those combat maneuvers, which will become more and more common at higher levels.


Fromper wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Fromper wrote:
And good luck grappling that flying demon or dragon. First you have to get to it.
I am talking more about the CMB Vs CMD mechanics.

So am I. You face a lot more flying creatures at higher levels. CMB doesn't matter if you're not in a situation to even attempt to use it.

That said, with a potion of fly, grappling might still become an option. Tripping doesn't work against flyers, though.

The moral of the story is to have a backup plan, for when you can't use those combat maneuvers, which will become more and more common at higher levels.

You are totally right in what you say of cousre, to be A one trickpony is a bad idea. However, that do not answer the question about people beliebein you can not succed reliably in a CMB check against the CMD of a hihger level creature.


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lest see for example a 15 level fighter against, a reasonable CMB for the unbuffed fighter would be something like

15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47

And now lets see the CMD of mosnters from the CR 16 list

planetar 40
astradaemon 41
demilich awakened 22
Slimmy demondadn 44
Shemazian demon 46
Bdellavritra 41
Cornugon 44
Ecorche 43
mitrhal golem 55
hollow serpent 43
grootlans 53-55
Linnorm, Fjord 49
nightwalker 41
Oma 57
plasma ooze 44
zomok 39-43
Scylla 47
warmsworm 42
there are a lot of dragons but they have a CMD more in the range of 45-50

The fighter will autosucced against 13 of 36 (36% of the total) monsters and against the most dificult one he will have 50% of chance of succed.

Of course, if the mosnters is inmmune again acertain maneuver the fighter still can just do a lot of damage.


Maybe the correct statement wouldn't be you cant its just really really difficult. Between the normal mathematical rise as hd goes up you add in those ridiculous size mods because high cr creatures are almost all huge or better then a lot of them get those quadraped bonuses against the most popular and then if you get through that a sizable amount can fly add in feat tax on top so instead of a half page laundry list people just say you can't


Actually the size mods to CMD aren't that bad.
Huge is just a +2, Gargantum a +4, even colossal is "only" +8.

Granted +8 is a lot but hey, we're talking stuff that's 10 times the height of an average human and weights something in the area of 125 tons. Or far far more.

What often drives the CMD up is that huge creatures (well large too, but not that bad yet) etc get a really big boost to their Strength score as well, while only taking a marginal hit to Dex, so that is another big boost to their CMD.

Also a lot of them have good or even full BAB progression which actually starts being noticable at those levels, and also applies to CMD.

But yes, someone who would concentrate on their CMB will still have a chance to beat it.
However at low levels most people have a chance to beat CMD of equal CR enemies, even if they don't focus on it. This approach will eventually not work anymore.

What you built there is a really specific build, requiring a certain class, and a lot of feats (which granted, is not the huge problem for that class).

Also, what is a "dueling FG weapon" that gives a +10?


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Nicos wrote:
15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47

So what happened to "people not focused on combat maneuvers"?

Also, I'm a bit confused. What does "Dueling FG weapon" mean and why does it give a +10? The only Dueling property I can find adds a mere +2 to Disarm only.

Also, wouldn't Weapon Finesse not stack? It says Dex INSTEAD OF Str for attack rolls. Even though both apply to CMB checks, it seems like that would imply your Dex bonus is applied in place of your Str (effectively adding double Dex to CMB).

Edit: Wait, CMB doesn't add Dex anyway in the first place.

I am now officially confuzz


Quatar wrote:

Actually the size mods to CMD aren't that bad.

Huge is just a +2, Gargantum a +4, even colossal is "only" +8.

Granted +8 is a lot but hey, we're talking stuff that's 10 times the height of an average human and weights something in the area of 125 tons. Or far far more.

What often drives the CMD up is that huge creatures (well large too, but not that bad yet) etc get a really big boost to their Strength score as well, while only taking a marginal hit to Dex, so that is another big boost to their CMD.

Also a lot of them have good or even full BAB progression which actually starts being noticable at those levels, and also applies to CMD.

But yes, someone who would concentrate on their CMB will still have a chance to beat it.
However at low levels most people have a chance to beat CMD of equal CR enemies, even if they don't focus on it. This approach will eventually not work anymore.

What you built there is a really specific build, requiring a certain class, and a lot of feats (which granted, is not the huge problem for that class).

Also, what is a "dueling FG weapon" that gives a +10?

Its not that specific on class. I could get about the same with a Paladin or a Barbarian.

I think part of the issue is that the monk appears to be the best class for Combat manuevers, but it is pretty bad at getting a high bonus.


CMB is only BAB+Str+Size.
CMD also adds Dex into the mix. (and weapon finesse doesn't apply obviously)

So no Weapon Finesse wouldn't do anything, and even for CMB only on CMs that use a weapon. Others would need Agile Maneuvers.


Rynjin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47

So what happened to "people not focused on combat maneuvers"?

Also, I'm a bit confused. What does "Dueling FG weapon" mean and why does it give a +10? The only Dueling property I can find adds a mere +2 to Disarm only.

From what I could find, it is something from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide (Source)that focuses on Trips, Disarms, and Dirty Tricks. It provides double your enhancement bonus to the checks as long as you use the weapon. So it certainly doesn't work for all of your Combat Maneuver needs, though it is a pretty nice bonus.


Well okay then.

That's nice and all but I fail to see how 2/6 combat maneuvers is "most" combat maneuvers Nicos.


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Nicos wrote:

lest see for example a 15 level fighter against, a reasonable CMB for the unbuffed fighter would be something like

15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47

This is not reasonable, this is a Fighter specifically focused on maneuvers. A normal fighter will not have multiple items dedicated specifically to maneuvers.

I have no idea what a "dueling FG" weapon is, but it's not especially common, so lets pull +10 off of that. I also can't figure out how you're getting +3 from Ioun stones. I can see one that gives +1 competence to attack and one that gives +1 morale, but that's it. A much more reasonable CMB, then, is +36, which does not fair quite so well.

I don't really understand how a non-smiting Paladin could match that at all--they'll be missing Weapon Training, the Gloves of Dueling, and GWF--that drops them 6 short.

And an Oracle of Battle, about whom I recently saw it claimed could be one of the best maneuver users in the game, would be even worse. They'd lose all of those bonuses and wouldn't even have Smite to make up for it.

If your argument is, "If you get a very specific weapon enchant people mostly are unfamiliar with, you can be good enough at maneuvers to use them at high levels!" then I guess you're right, but that's really moving the goalposts.

Of course, you then also have to look at how useful maneuvers are to begin with. Drag, Reposition, and Bullrush are of dubious usefulness and they can't be used on enemies that are much bigger than you (i.e. all of them), so that's out.

Dirty Trick is pretty terrible without a lot of feat support because you waste a standard action to eat their move action--not a good trade.

Disarm requires the opponent be wielding a weapon, and let's face it, the default assumptions in Pathfinder have you fightning non-weapon users the vast majority of the time. Oh, plus, they can just pick their weapon up again as a move action.

Grappling does surprisingly little, and all those weapon based bonuses you have to CMB do not apply to your CMD (and the applicable bonuses that do apply are much harder to get), so good luck keeping anyone grappled for long.

Steal--really?

Sunder, much like Disarm, requires that the enemy is using stuff worth sundering, and that said stuff isn't made of awesome special materials that are nearly impossible to sunder. It also requires that you have a way to fix your enemy's stuff or else you're breaking your own loot.

Trip is worthless at high levels because most high level enemies will be untrippable (mostly because they'll be flying or legless).

Do yourself a favor and don't bother.


Rynjin wrote:
Also, wouldn't Weapon Finesse not stack? It says Dex INSTEAD OF Str for attack rolls. Even though both apply to CMB checks, it seems like that would imply your Dex bonus is applied in place of your Str (effectively adding double Dex to CMB).

Where are you getting weapon finesse from? I see weapon training, and weapon focus (I think?).

That said, the breakdown of additions (maneuver feats, weapon training, gloves, and weapon focuses) is quite a bit of an investment.

In addition, there's a few other potholes along the way.

What's Disarm going to do if the creature has X natural attacks (cuz it seems likely that they'll have at least some natural attacks at that point)? Enemies with 4 legs are harder to Trip, and several can't be tripped in any circumstance whatsoever. Grappling? Not bad to keep them occupied, but they get to attack you while you do that. If there's more than one enemy keeping the rest of the party occupied while the big bad is being grappled, the fighter is probably gonna take damage a lot more rapidly than he can deal out.

And, semi-ninja'd.

Edit: *cough* Actually, looking at grapple, that's not so great... you need to spend a standard action, unless you've invested several feats into making it easier, so you likely damage them once. If you get greater grapple, you're at a move action, so you could hit twice. Is there any way to do this faster than a move action? Because otherwise, if they don't try to break the grapple, they're free to full attack you back with anything that isn't two handed. That's... probably not going to be a nice trade-off for you. Imo, at least.


Darkwolf117 wrote:


Where are you getting weapon finesse from? I see weapon training, and weapon focus (I think?).

Oh.

I thought that's what WF and GWF was supposed to be.

This is why I never abbreviate things unless I've said it fully earlier in the post.


mplindustries:

The dueling FG is actually a fairly common enhancement for Maneuver builds (they recently took it off the PFSRD for some reason and I am personally looking into that trying to figure out the reason why). The ion stones are being slotted into a wayfinder (gives a +2 CMB/CMD), specifically the dusty rose ion stone. THE ONLY thing that might not be bought by everyone is the gloves of dueling as everything else is fairly common and inexpensive (feats you would get anyways and a two feat investment (improved/greater) to actually be able to perform the maneuver without AoO and other benefits and the wayfinder + stone is only 1k).

Grapple can keep a opponent immobile and only able to attack one person, reposition can be used to create lots of AoOs and battlefield control. Dirty trick can BLIND you for 1d4 rounds...yes please? Sunder and Disarm are amazing in a humanoid heavy campaign but outside of that I agree with you on those. Trip is not as usefull but it can still have its place for battlefield control (the old trip tank builds from 3.5 demonstrate that a lot). Personally not a huge fan of bull rush and drag but they have their place. As for the whole bigger then you by then you also have some way to make yourself bigger so you can still use it against most enemies.


First sorry for the double post:

Darkwolf:

With Rapid Grappler you can get it to a swift action. Also remember you can tie someone up once you have them pinned so with greater grapple you can make someone helpless during the second round (pin then tie). That alone makes grappling worthwhile for a lot of people...

"Hey look the BBEF is tied up and we can just kick him (1d3) to death for all the crap he has put us through!? Yipeeee!


Lord Phrofet wrote:
feats you would get anyways and a two feat investment (improved/greater) to actually be able to perform the maneuver without AoO

Last time I checked, most maneuver builds don't consider Combat Expertise something they "would get anyways".

Dark Archive

That fighter isn't even that optimized for maneuvers. A 15th level lore warden would have a CMB 8 higher.
If you want some flexibility about using Combat Maneuvers barbarians are the best choice.


Lord Phrofet wrote:

With Rapid Grappler you can get it to a swift action. Also remember you can tie someone up once you have them pinned so with greater grapple you can make someone helpless during the second round (pin then tie). That alone makes grappling worthwhile for a lot of people...

"Hey look the BBEF is tied up and we can just kick him (1d3) to death for all the crap he has put us through!? Yipeeee!

Perhaps. Hope he doesn't have Freedom of Movement :P

Maybe it's just a matter of situational use. To do something like that would need a fair bit of feat investment, and may be entirely foiled by one spell. Likewise, you could invest a few feats into trip, and find things with no legs, or a few feats into disarm, when plenty of things don't need weapons.

Just seems like they're pretty situational to me. I suppose it might not be too bad if you build a repertoire of maneuvers so you've always got something available but...


It doesn't help that things immune to one type of maneuver are often immune to other types of maneuvers - if something is immune to being tripped, odds are that it's also immune to being disarmed. Sink feats into multiple maneuvers and watch them all fail simultaneously.


He doesn't have anything to back his silly claims or "normal" build. And I think he's left the building...

Sovereign Court

That dueling property is nuts... It's a Luck bonus that comes on top of the weapon's Enhancement bonus. So yeah, a +5 dueling weapon puts you at a +15 (!) to maneuvers. This property is rated as only a +1!

---

Other than that, that fighter build doesn't strike me as hyperspecialized; he put two feats into maneuvers and a couple of dedicated ioun stones; everything else (weapon training, weapon focus, dueling gloves etc.) is stuff that fighters want anyway.

Two feats on a level 15 fighter doesn't count as hyperspecialized, that's more like a side trip.


Nicos wrote:
I do not understand it, it is simply not true for most combat maneuvers.

I agree that it's misleading for most combat maneuvers, particularly ones that you can perform with a weapon. BUT...I think it is fair to say that many high level creatures are immune (or effectively immune) to being tripped, either because they can fly, or they have many legs, or they have no legs (as noted by mplindustries).


If I was going to focus on a combat manouver, It'd probably be disarm as a fighter. That way, you only need three feats (which is why I'd only probably do this on a human fighter), and you can still kit yourself out for damage. Then you can just dominate all the people your size by disarming them, and still do damage against the biggins that probably don't even have weapons.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, I'll agree that most combat maneuvers aren't that useful against high level enemies. Against a flying enemy with natural weapons, such as the 3D bad guys that are common at mid-high level (demons, devils, and dragons), you can't trip, disarm, or sunder.

Grappling is the one that's always useful if you can make it work, though. You're occupying the enemy and giving them penalties. It may not win fights by itself against big enough enemies (unlike lower levels where grapple DOES win fights by itself very regularly), but it still keeps the bad guys occupied while the rest of the party does whatever they want.

But grappling is also the combat maneuver that doesn't benefit from weapons, so toss all those weapon-specific bonuses out the window.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
That dueling property is nuts... It's a Luck bonus that comes on top of the weapon's Enhancement bonus. So yeah, a +5 dueling weapon puts you at a +15 (!) to maneuvers. This property is rated as only a +1!

+10 to some combat maneuvers for 72,000gp is hardly nuts. That's up there with +3 speed weapons, +8 armors/shields, greater horns of blasting, helms of teleportation, telepathic crystal balls, and robes of the archmagi. It's also important to remember that the other +5 would have been their with or without the dueling enchantment.

If you ask me there are far too many near-worthless weapon abilities out there already. This one actually seems to be nice.


Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
That dueling property is nuts... It's a Luck bonus that comes on top of the weapon's Enhancement bonus. So yeah, a +5 dueling weapon puts you at a +15 (!) to maneuvers. This property is rated as only a +1!
+10 to some combat maneuvers for 72,000gp is hardly nuts.

You say this as if the entire 72,000 gp is only used for the CM bonus.

It's not.

50,000 of those are for a normal +5 enhancement, which benefits all attacks etc, and that most combatants eventually want anyway.

So the +10 to combat maneuvers is really only 22,000 gp.


If you know the sort of things you've going to be up against and reason that a certain combat maneuver would be effective, I don't see why you couldn't do it through to level 20. Statistically speaking, yes the percentage of enemies vulnerable to maneuvers is much lower than those resistant to them at higher levels, but if you're playing in a campaign where most of the encounters are NPCs instead of monsters (like a killer general and his sorcerer minons) grappling, tripping, and disarming can still be viable. You just have to know your group.

Nothing beats a good ol' Dirty Trick, though. I don't think any creatures are flat out immune to it. Size would be an issue, but nothing is cooler than the hero spitting in the eyes of a dragon, except the time it actually works.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quatar wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
That dueling property is nuts... It's a Luck bonus that comes on top of the weapon's Enhancement bonus. So yeah, a +5 dueling weapon puts you at a +15 (!) to maneuvers. This property is rated as only a +1!
+10 to some combat maneuvers for 72,000gp is hardly nuts.

You say this as if the entire 72,000 gp is only used for the CM bonus.

It's not.

50,000 of those are for a normal +5 enhancement, which benefits all attacks etc, and that most combatants eventually want anyway.

So the +10 to combat maneuvers is really only 22,000 gp.

Except you can't get the full +10 without the +5 enhancement, so it's actually worth the full 72,000gp.


Lord Phrofet wrote:

mplindustries:

The dueling FG is actually a fairly common enhancement for Maneuver builds (they recently took it off the PFSRD for some reason and I am personally looking into that trying to figure out the reason why). The ion stones are being slotted into a wayfinder (gives a +2 CMB/CMD), specifically the dusty rose ion stone. THE ONLY thing that might not be bought by everyone is the gloves of dueling as everything else is fairly common and inexpensive (feats you would get anyways and a two feat investment (improved/greater) to actually be able to perform the maneuver without AoO and other benefits and the wayfinder + stone is only 1k).

You are right about he gloves of fueling, but other classes can have

Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot hands; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

The wearer of these gauntlets gains a +2 bonus on one type of combat maneuver check (such as bull rush, disarm, or steal) chosen by the creator when the item is created.


Don't forget a Paladin with unsanctioned knowledge can get Divine Power for a +4 bonus on attack and Good Hope for another +2.

Barbarian gets boosted strength and rage powers that boost maneuvers.

Also, anyone performing maneuvers should wear Giant Hide Armor, which gives you a strength boost and makes you huge.


Ascalaphus wrote:

That dueling property is nuts... It's a Luck bonus that comes on top of the weapon's Enhancement bonus. So yeah, a +5 dueling weapon puts you at a +15 (!) to maneuvers. This property is rated as only a +1!

---

Wow, For some reason I thought the enchanment did not stack with the weapon enhacement bonus, that puts +5

15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 15 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +52

i could even autosucced against a lot of monsters without the manuver feats

15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 15 (dueling FG weapon) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +48


Ravingdork wrote:
Quatar wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
That dueling property is nuts... It's a Luck bonus that comes on top of the weapon's Enhancement bonus. So yeah, a +5 dueling weapon puts you at a +15 (!) to maneuvers. This property is rated as only a +1!
+10 to some combat maneuvers for 72,000gp is hardly nuts.

You say this as if the entire 72,000 gp is only used for the CM bonus.

It's not.

50,000 of those are for a normal +5 enhancement, which benefits all attacks etc, and that most combatants eventually want anyway.

So the +10 to combat maneuvers is really only 22,000 gp.

Except you can't get the full +10 without the +5 enhancement, so it's actually worth the full 72,000gp.

Well, a +5 weapon is something that most martial would want anyways, it help with attack, damage and bypass alot of DRs, it is not like the 72,000 are spended just to use maneuvers.


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Nicos wrote:

lest see for example a 15 level fighter against, a reasonable CMB for the unbuffed fighter would be something like

15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47
...
Of course, if the mosnters is inmmune again acertain maneuver the fighter still can just do a lot of damage.

Which is certainly true if you are using the weapon qualities for a lot of the bonuses and it's a maneuver you can't perform with a weapon, or if PFS content is not in your game. In the fighter case above, that would basically mean disarming, and most of those creatures you list have natural weapons and cannot be disarmed. It drops somewhat if you are tripping, unless you have a tripping weapon, but then many of these creatures are flying as well and cannot be tripped. It drops a LOT if you are grappling, and even then you are hosed if your target gets a freedom of movement.

The thing is not that "Maneuvers don't work" it's that "maneuvers do not work reliably" - and the feat economy means that if you invest in all maneuvers, you aren't good at a lot else. Best you can hope for is one maneuver, and have a chan ce of doing it well some of the time.

Even if you are a monk, ostensibly the best at maneuvers, you will find that enhancement bonus restrictions (AoMF capped at +5), MADness, need to invest in Combat Expertise to get greater maneuvers etc. mean that you will probably not be good enough at them to do well in most combats above tenth level. Trust me, I've tried.


Note that I said "most combat maneuvers" I should have said "weapon based combat maneuvers" that includes

sunder, dirty trick, disarm, trip.

and grapple with hamatula strike

and drag, reposition with a trip weapon.

and, the admitelly much more expensive, bull rush with an impact weapon or the less expnsive but more feat dependant shield slam.

EDIT: And the example above was an unbuffed character, any wizard,cleric or bard could make those numbers go sky high.


Dabbler wrote:
Nicos wrote:

lest see for example a 15 level fighter against, a reasonable CMB for the unbuffed fighter would be something like

15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47
...
Of course, if the mosnters is inmmune again acertain maneuver the fighter still can just do a lot of damage.

Which is certainly true if you are using the weapon qualities for a lot of the bonuses and it's a maneuver you can't perform with a weapon, or if PFS content is not in your game. In the fighter case above, that would basically mean disarming, and most of those creatures you list have natural weapons and cannot be disarmed. It drops somewhat if you are tripping, unless you have a tripping weapon, but then many of these creatures are flying as well and cannot be tripped. It drops a LOT if you are grappling, and even then you are hosed if your target gets a freedom of movement.

The thing is not that "Maneuvers don't work" it's that "maneuvers do not work reliably" - and the feat economy means that if you invest in all maneuvers, you aren't good at a lot else. Best you can hope for is one maneuver, and have a chan ce of doing it well some of the time.

Even if you are a monk, ostensibly the best at maneuvers, you will find that enhancement bonus restrictions (AoMF capped at +5), MADness, need to invest in Combat Expertise to get greater maneuvers etc. mean that you will probably not be good enough at them to do well in most combats above tenth level. Trust me, I've tried.

1) You do not need a trip weapon to use the trip maneuver

2) monk are far far from bein the best at maneuvers.


^^Yeah, the honor of the best at manouvers would have to go to Captain Fight-man.


Lord Phrofet wrote:
The dueling FG is actually a fairly common enhancement for Maneuver builds

And yet, I thought we were talking about typical characters--i.e. ones not built to use maneuvers.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
(they recently took it off the PFSRD for some reason and I am personally looking into that trying to figure out the reason why).

I bet they took it down from PFSRD because it's a total B.S. property. That's way too much bonus to anything for way too little cost. The original property gave +2--the idea of a similar property giving more than that is akin to there existing a Fighter FG class with d20 hit dice, 10 skill points per level, and full arcane AND divine casting.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
The ion stones are being slotted into a wayfinder (gives a +2 CMB/CMD), specifically the dusty rose ion stone.

Weird, I've never even heard of a wayfinder.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
THE ONLY thing that might not be bought by everyone is the gloves of dueling as everything else is fairly common and inexpensive

Fairly common? You're saying the incredibly powerful item that is often used to singlehandedly determine the viability of Fighter archetypes (i.e. can they use the Gloves of Dueling or not?) is less likely for the guy to have than other unusual magic items (one of which isn't on the srd) that I never heard of before today? You're joking.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
Grapple can keep a opponent immobile

I don't think so--your CMD will, in no way, keep up with your CMB, considering most of your CMB is from one item.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
reposition can be used to create lots of AoOs

Only if you've spent two feats on it.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
Dirty trick can BLIND you for 1d4 rounds...yes please?

Only if you've spent two feats on it--plus they can just spend a standard action to end it early. And any spellcaster can blind them for longer at range (probably AoE) with zero feat investment. Oh, and most end game enemies have alternate senses anyway.

It looks like to do any maneuvers, you need to specifically focus on them, take multiple feats, and buy items specifically to help out. And even then, you get very little benefit for your investment.


Just out of curiosity, does anyone even get how you can be proficient in melee combat, capable of swinging a sword god knows how many times in six seconds (as the four you get represent actual opportunities for harm), and yet you somehow don't know how to attempt these maneuvers without eating something pointy? Does this not mess with immersion for anyone else?

"yeah, I'm the best swordsman ever, except with disarming.... who disarms, right guys?"


mplindustries wrote:

Weird, I've never even heard of a wayfinder.

The iconic symbol of the, err, Pathfinder Society?


mplindustries wrote:


Lord Phrofet wrote:
(they recently took it off the PFSRD for some reason and I am personally looking into that trying to figure out the reason why).

I bet they took it down from PFSRD because it's a total B.S. property. That's way too much bonus to anything for way too little cost. The original property gave +2--the idea of a similar property giving more than that is akin to there existing a Fighter FG class with d20 hit dice, 10 skill points per level, and full arcane AND divine casting.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
The ion stones are being slotted into a wayfinder (gives a +2 CMB/CMD), specifically the dusty rose ion stone.

Weird, I've never even heard of a wayfinder.

Lord Phrofet wrote:
THE ONLY thing that might not be bought by everyone is the gloves of dueling as everything else is fairly common and inexpensive

Fairly common? You're saying the incredibly powerful item that is often used to singlehandedly determine the viability of Fighter archetypes (i.e. can they use the Gloves of Dueling or not?) is less likely for the guy to have than other unusual magic items (one of which isn't on the srd) that I never heard of before today? You're joking.

with all due respect I think you do not know of what you are talking about.

1) it is weapon property from a book that have not been errated out of the game, the fact that you did not know about it do not make less legal, the same with the wayfinder.

And besides i think the dueling property is in the same book of the agile enhacement probably one of the most used property in the forum.

2) Gloves of dueling is hardly the factor to determine the viability of a fighter archetype.


mplindustries wrote:

And yet, I thought we were talking about typical characters--i.e. ones not built to use maneuvers.

]I bet they took it down from PFSRD because it's a total B.S. property. That's way too much bonus to anything for way too little cost. The original property gave +2--the idea of a similar property giving more than that is akin to there existing a Fighter FG class with d20 hit dice, 10 skill points per level, and full arcane AND divine casting.

Weird, I've never even heard of a wayfinder.

Fairly common? You're saying the incredibly powerful item that is often used to singlehandedly determine the viability of Fighter archetypes (i.e. can they use the Gloves of Dueling or not?) is less likely for the guy to have than other unusual magic items (one of which isn't on the srd) that I never heard of before today? You're joking.

I don't think so--your CMD will, in no way, keep up with your CMB, considering most of your CMB is from one item.

Only if you've spent two feats on it.

Only if you've spent two feats on it--plus they can just spend a standard action to end it early. And any spellcaster can blind them for longer at range (probably AoE) with zero feat investment. Oh, and most end game enemies have alternate senses...

1. I automatically thought we were referring to someone who at least invested some time and money into making a maneuver. If you have not invested in at LEAST the "improved" you should probably not even attempt the maneuver at ANY level.

2. That is your personal opinion. Honestly I think it got removed by mistake as currently there are a lot of link issues on the PFSRD with magical enhancements when they added and converted everything to the UE format....there is even two different pages for it right now.

3. You should look it up. The way finder is an amazing item that adds incredible versatility to ion stones.

4. I was referring to more classes besides the fighter who could not get the benefit from weapon training.

5. You still kept them inmobile for a round and forced them to spend a (standard or full round?) action to get out of it. Since D20 is so much about action economy that is wonderful. Freedom of movement has never been as common as I have seen people make it out to be. And if the caster wasted a round casting freedom of movement just to escape our grappler then the squishy is probably going to die for that wasted round.

6. As explained above if you are thinking of doing a maneuver you should at LEAST invest in the two basic feats for it!

7. Yes but the old argument for caster vs martial: the martial character can do what he does ALLLLLLL DAY. The caster can only do what he does as long as his spells last. Saying a caster does it better is not a real valid argument to me. Plus he can blind, stagger, sicken, and a bunch of other things. And for the feat investment we have already talked about that and for them taking a standard action to get rid of it again action economy. I would gladly pay a standard action for standard action against a high level enemy:i throw sand in his eyes, he clears it out, i throw sand in his eyes....while my comrade in arms are killing him. Sounds like a good payoff to me.


Wayfinder, costs 500g and provides benefits such as a +2 bonus to natural armor, a +2 to CMD or CMB, ability to cast spells as spell-like abilities...

Wayfinders, imho, are among the most absurdly broken items I've seen published in a PF splat book. If someone else other than Paizo came up with them, they would have been laughed out of the game.

This is just another indication of the way that even Pathfinder is suffering from rules bloat.


The wayfinder only provides those extras when you put an Ioun Stone into them, by the way. Without that the standard does Light on command.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Wayfinder, costs 500g and provides benefits such as a +2 bonus to natural armor, a +2 to CMD or CMB, ability to cast spells as spell-like abilities...

Wayfinders, imho, are among the most absurdly broken items I've seen published in a PF splat book. If someone else other than Paizo came up with them, they would have been laughed out of the game.

This is just another indication of the way that even Pathfinder is suffering from rules bloat.

Your PERSONAL OPINION not withstanding they are a valid item. And any system that has been along long enough starts to suffer from rules bloat and power creep (it is sometimes regretful but the switch side is a new version every couple years and I am PERSONALLY not a fan of that approach either)...BUT that is NOT the topic of discussion here.

Adamantine Dragon what do you think about the original question? (I have seen plenty of your posts and have a pretty good opinion on your points)


Funky, once you have the Ioun stone, then the extra ability only costs 500g, which is clearly WAY out of line with the general cost of items. And Ioun stones provide their own abilities to meet their worth already, so in the end, this item allows huge bonuses for a measly 500g, no matter how you slice it.

Lord, to answer your question of why people keep repeating the untrue statement that at high levels there is no hope to reliably succeed with combat maneuvers, the answer is that combat maneuvers (barring crazy items which grant +10 bonuses to such maneuvers) don't scale at the same rate that attacks do. CMD scales faster than AC at high levels. So CMB attacks generally have a lower probability for success than, say, a vital strike with a greatsword.

To some people that is the same thing as saying "no hope to reliably succeed". People are prone to hyperbole and exaggeration.

But their basic premise is accurate enough, as I understand it. A character whose concept is built primarily around CMB will suffer at the highest levels compared to a concept built around direct attacks.

I agree again with mplindustries and would rather see Paizo FIX the CMB mechanic than introduce "necessary items" that grant a +10 bonus to a particular ability just in an attempt to bring it back up to par with other tactics.

But it's a lot easier, I suppose, to introduce the crazy item and just assume that every CMB based build will get it, in spite of how crazy it appears when compared to other supposedly "comparable" magic abilities.

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