Enchanting a black blade


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Has there been any ruling or decisive argument that would allow my bladebound magus to enchant his black blade nine-ring sword to function as a ten-ring sword? The character is kinda' obsessed about having as many magical rings as possible.

Sovereign Court

I don't see how you could. Given that it gains enhancement with levels, I would say you aren't supposed to enhance it. You could totally turn a normal +2 9-ring sword into a 10-ring sword, but this is no normal sword. I would see more room for it if you could give your sword +x equivalent enhancements, but then again, you're looking for a unique weapon not a standard +x weapon.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Gaining an enhancement bonus does not preclude being able to make it magical. That sounds like little more than an assumption on your part.

Sovereign Court

Can I ever do more than that? If there were no room for assumptions then I doubt you would have asked the question in the first place.


The better question is... Why would you want to as a player or dm?

Cause lets assume it stacks for a second. You have a +1 Blackblade Scimitar. You choose to enhance it to a plus +3. Now, do you treat it as real enhancement and pay the difference from equivalent enhancing costs? Some Dms might say it doesn't count; and treat it like a second enhancement on an item so you're paying even more money.

However for arguement's sake, lets say that's not a problem. You pay whatever the cost and have a wizard do it for you. It's now +3. What happens when you level and it's enhancement changes to a +2? One could argue it changes to a +2 and you have lost your enhancement.

But again lets say you don't have to worry, and that it stack/superceeds the enhancement. Eventually your weapon reaches +5. [b]What happens to the previous enhancments?[b] You can't go above +5; so you probably just lost all that gold's worth of enhancement. Any abilities you might have added may be lost too unless the total enhancement cost of them are equivalent. You may even have to pay for the enhancement for anything over +5 or else the weapons natural enhancement will override the weapons.

Lastly; assuming that you've gone to all this potential trouble to get it enhanced for those one or two weapon abilities you couldn't live without... You now have less enhancment bonus availible to add abilities too with your Arcane Pool, essentially destoying a handy class feature.

And if that's the case... Why bother with a Blackblade if you're just gonna buy another magic sword anyways? Just save yourself the hassle and don't bother.


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I think you missed the point, Darth. He wants to add the ring slot, not more enhancement bonus.

I would allow it to be enchanted with any non-enhancement (or enhancement equivalent) effect. I wouldn't allow the enhancements because it creates a weird situation whereby it's cheaper to enchant the sword on Monday than it is on Tuesday, simply because you happen to level. And the enhancement bonus seems integral to the sword itself, whereas other 'addons' wouldn't mess with it, conceptually or metaphysically...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to say no you can't enhance or enchant it because it's not an ordinary weapon, but a sentient creature. You can enhance it with the arcane pool because it's designed to work with that ability.


The devs have already said that you can't enchant a black blade at all, except through a magus' arcane pool. It has its own enhancement bonus and ego progression because of it, which would throw everything out of whack.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
I'm going to say no you can't enhance or enchant it because it's not an ordinary weapon, but a sentient creature. You can enhance it with the arcane pool because it's designed to work with that ability.

People enhance sentient creatures/items all the time in Pathfinder. Why is this suddenly any different?

Ashram wrote:
The devs have already said that you can't enchant a black blade at all, except through a magus' arcane pool. It has its own enhancement bonus and ego progression because of it, which would throw everything out of whack.

Quote and link it or it never happened. :P


Ravingdork wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I'm going to say no you can't enhance or enchant it because it's not an ordinary weapon, but a sentient creature. You can enhance it with the arcane pool because it's designed to work with that ability.

People enhance sentient creatures/items all the time in Pathfinder. Why is this suddenly any different?

Ashram wrote:
The devs have already said that you can't enchant a black blade at all, except through a magus' arcane pool. It has its own enhancement bonus and ego progression because of it, which would throw everything out of whack.
Quote and link it or it never happened. :P

This. As far as I know, no one has ever had a decisive answer yea or nay regarding it. But it interacts strangely with everything it would touch.

Here's the thing: RAW, there's nothing that says you cannot do it. Everything is RAI.

Let me repeat, for the naysayers: THERE IS NO RULE THAT STATES A BLACK BLADE CANNOT BE ENCHANTED.

Now, as RD says, if you have a Dev post somewhere you can reference, I will take that word as Errata, Addendum or otherwise gospel. But until I read it, and see it under a Pathfinder Dev's name, it doesn't exist.


there is no rule that states you cannot. however, the big issue is that money spent on enhancement bonuses becomes effectively wasted once you gain levels. you are effectively better off placing special abilities. like agile or keen.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Or a 10th-ring? :P


Ravingdork wrote:
Or a 10th-ring? :P

you can add that too.


As a class ability it is already very different from a 'normal' item that you would be enchanting and nothing even hints at improving it as a normal weapon could be. As such I would say it is rather apparent the implication is it works as described in the class ability description (specific rules) and doesn't follow the general magic item creation (general rules). It doesn't require the creation feats magical items required to be made/improved upon with during the class progression and has no clause or explanation for how it could be improved (unlike the rules for a bonded item from a wizard) beyond what it says it gets.

Basically it is what it is. As a house rule feel free to let them as always, but RAW doesn't state any way for the 'free' intelligent magic item class ability it be improved beyond spending points from another class ability.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Basically it is what it is. As a house rule feel free to let them as always, but RAW doesn't state any way for the 'free' intelligent magic item class ability it be improved beyond spending points from another class ability.

There are rules for enchanting swords. There are even rules for adding enchantments to items that already have enchantments. This is a sword. It has an enchantment. There is nothing, RAW, that indicates it should be treated otherwise.


Ravingdork wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I'm going to say no you can't enhance or enchant it because it's not an ordinary weapon, but a sentient creature. You can enhance it with the arcane pool because it's designed to work with that ability.

People enhance sentient creatures/items all the time in Pathfinder. Why is this suddenly any different?

Ashram wrote:
The devs have already said that you can't enchant a black blade at all, except through a magus' arcane pool. It has its own enhancement bonus and ego progression because of it, which would throw everything out of whack.
Quote and link it or it never happened. :P
James Jacobs wrote:
Von Marshal wrote:
Can the Black Blade granted a Blade Bound Magus be futher enchanted with perminate properties like spell storing?
Nope. Unless your GM says it's okay.

Ask James Jacobs, it's near the bottom of the page.


Geistlinger wrote:

Nope. Unless your GM says it's okay

That thread's not a faq or errata, nor does it have anything to do with RAW.

Not to mention the fact that he didn't even really say anything. 'If your GM lets you,' is the answer to any 'can I...' question.


The GM can house rule anything they like, that's like Rule 0 (or 1, I forget which).

At any rate, Ashram said that the devs had said a Black blade can't be further enchanted, and RD asked for a link and quote.

I never said it was faq/errata/whatever, I was just providing a link where a dev (James Jacobs) said, basically, you couldn't further enchant a Black Blade, unless your GM house rules it that you can.


I didn't think James was a Dev(eloper) - at least as in "Game/Rules Designer". I thought he was a Creative Director (in charge of Golarion canon). It may be a pedantic difference, and I might be wrong entirely.

In fact, in the pfsrd, it notes,

the PFSRD wrote:
Note: The Paizo staffer making the above statement was James Jacobs, the Creative Director. It is important to note that James, while very knowledgeable, is not a developer or designer of the Pathfinder rules and is occasionally overruled by one of the designers (like Jason, Sean, or Stephen.)

A perfect example (which can be found here:

PFSRD wrote:

Cavalier

War Trained Mount and Armor Proficiency

Q: When a mount like a horse is "War Trained" does it gain all Armor proficiencies (light, medium, heavy), no armor proficiencies, or just the light armor as indicated under the cavalier?

A: (Official FAQ 10/21/10) No, using Handle Animal to train an animal, or mount, in this way does not grant it a free bonus feat. It is not unreasonable, however to assume that an animal specifically designed to be ridden (such as a horse or dog) could be purchased with Light Armor Proficiency as one of its feats (swapping out Endurance or Skill Focus respectively) for the same cost. [Source]

A: (James Jacobs 8/28/10) For now, though, it's safe to assume that a mount that's trained for war gets Light Armor proficiency for free, but needs to spend feats to get better armor. This does mean that most normal horses will never be able to get heavy armor training, and I'm kind of okay with that. [Source]

(though it doesn't show up, the "A" from JJ has a line through it in the PFSRD)

That's not to negate your skill at finding that, Geistlinger, nor to negate the fact that you answered their questions (you did well!), but just to help people get a larger picture of what is and is not "solid" Errata. :)


Plus the person asked about a basic enhancement. NOT a specific Weapon upgrade.

As a GM I would Allow it though you would not be able to until it had an equivalent +x bonus to the specific item.

That said is Black Blade PFS legal? And Does it have rules for if the Black Blade gets destroyed?


Geistlinger wrote:

The GM can house rule anything they like, that's like Rule 0 (or 1, I forget which).

At any rate, Ashram said that the devs had said a Black blade can't be further enchanted, and RD asked for a link and quote.

I never said it was faq/errata/whatever, I was just providing a link where a dev (James Jacobs) said, basically, you couldn't further enchant a Black Blade, unless your GM house rules it that you can.

This isn't just a standard case of Rule 0, though. This isn't a player asking for something forbidden by the rules, or the rule being ambiguous. This is a case of the rules simply not saying one way or another. So whether he says yes or no, it's purely the GMs decision.

And as pointed out, James is not a dev. I wish he'd stop answering questions about rules in such authoritative-sounding ways. He could have said, 'not at my table,' or some such, making it clear that it's just his opinion, not RAW or RAI.


J.J. really should have a Signature that says DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion NOT R.A.W.!

And to clarify: I like J.J. I just think it needs stated that his opinions might be alright for Golarion and Home Games but aren't R.A.W.

Though I have to say on base +x priced enhancement it would be a no. On specific weapon upgrades I would say yes. Especially if Black Blade gives up what I think it does.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:


That said is Black Blade PFS legal? And Does it have rules for if the Black Blade gets destroyed?

As far as I know yeah. It has a reforging cost to it, in line with a destroyed bonded item.


Vestrial wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Basically it is what it is. As a house rule feel free to let them as always, but RAW doesn't state any way for the 'free' intelligent magic item class ability it be improved beyond spending points from another class ability.
There are rules for enchanting swords. There are even rules for adding enchantments to items that already have enchantments. This is a sword. It has an enchantment. There is nothing, RAW, that indicates it should be treated otherwise.

Absolutely there are rules and I touched on that point if you quote my entire post.

Your masterwork long sword that you want enchanted requires you to have a feat, a caster level and access to certain spells or skills when you want to get it improved depending on what you want added. You may have noticed none of those are prerequisites for the Bladebound when you read through the description of the class ability that grants a very specific intelligent companion which happens to have very specific rate of increase in power (per the table). It would also be wise to note there are specific abilities the weapon has access to, both in 'permanent' and 'temporary' fashion.

Just because the companion can be used as a weapon, has weapon like qualities and has a set enhancement bonus does not mean it is the 'standard' magic weapon and you can do whatever you want with it. A flameblade is a spell and it gets treated like a weapon (scimitar) but you couldn't enchant it like one. The rules constantly borrow from each other as it is easier to keep the word count down and explain something by relation to something that is already pre-existing. Just because something 'is like' something else doesn't mean it follows the same mechanical game definition.

Also for what it is worth, I've seen that organized play doesn't allow for 'named' magical arms and armor to be further enhanced. Pretty sure if you absolutely insist that the defined intelligent companion granted by the magus' class ability is a weapon, it is a 'named' magic weapon and by extension 'officially' in organized play it would be unable to be further enhanced by spending character wealth.


In a Homebrew it seems more like it would depend on the Swords Goals/Intentions...


Skylancer4 wrote:

Absolutely there are rules and I touched on that point if you quote my entire post.

Your masterwork long sword that you want enchanted requires you to have a feat, a caster level and access to certain spells or skills when you want to get it improved depending on what you want added. You may have noticed none of those are prerequisites for the Bladebound when you read through the description of the class ability that grants a very specific intelligent companion which happens to have very specific rate of increase in power (per the table). It would also be wise to note there are specific abilities the weapon has access to, both in 'permanent' and 'temporary' fashion.

Just because the companion can be used as a weapon, has weapon like qualities and has a set enhancement bonus does not mean it is the 'standard' magic weapon and you can do whatever you want with it. A flameblade is a spell and it gets treated like a weapon (scimitar) but you couldn't enchant it like one. The rules constantly borrow from each other as it is easier to keep the word count down and explain something by relation to something that is already pre-existing. Just because something 'is like' something else doesn't mean it follows the same mechanical game definition.

To get your sword enchanted you do not have to have a feat or access to spells. All you need is money.

And that is a very interesting take on the BB, but it's not supported by RAW at all. RAW doesn't once use the word companion in the description. It's an intelligent sword, ie; a magic sword. And magic swords, by RAW, can be further enchanted.

Silver Crusade

To me this is a very simple matter to solve. The blade is masterwork to anyone who uses the weapon BUT you as such the weapon is still a weapon if you are not there. What does this mean? Well If you want it enchaned and NOT spend the feat.. at some point it will have to return to normal state.. in normal state it is non-magical and masterwork.. in Black Blade form it is the progression on the chart. The price to enchant it would be the same as any other weapon because its only a Black blade when the Magus wields it. The reason I could see a person wanted it enchant would be to get choice enchantments like.. Spell storing.. Dispelling, Guardian and whatnot. Rules wise Enhancement bonuses do not stack so If you say.. made it a +1 Spellstoring, Corrosive Burst blade and you were wlevel... 9 it would be a +3 Spellstoring, Corrosive Burst Blade with the ability to have Arcana pool slapped on to give whatever else..


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Actually you do need to have access to the feat and prereqs or are you just going to ignore that part of RAW? Do you specifically need it? No, but the person doing the enchanting does. The progression of the class ability is set by the table, which is remarkably similar to that of a familiar or are you going to ignore that as well? Is it a familiar exactly, no, just like it isn't exactly a 'magical sword.' It is something different and unique to the archtype. It does what it says it does, nothing less, nothing more. If it was intended to be modified, it would have been errata'd by now. RAW gives progression and ways to enhance the class ability, no where does it say it can be modified further than that.

'Just because it says it can't' isn't a valid arguement on a rule set based on giving the general rules of what you can do and specific exceptions to the general rules. It is a class ability, it acts in some ways like a weapon. It isn't your generic standard run of the mill magic weapon like you are saying it is. There are multiple significant differences, not the least of which is it having a strict progression and limitations to what it does and can have.

If you cannot come up with something more than 'I can because the rules don't say I can't' there isn't much more to be said to you. The rules DON'T say you can add abilities to the Blackblade (which again is at worst a named magical weapon which you seemed to ignore) via feats and spending character wealth. They do say you get a specific enhancement at a particular range of levels and it can be further enhanced with the characters other class ability, arcane pool. Specific rules trump general rules, and there are a whole lot of specifics in regard to this class ability.

JJ may not be the errata guy, but given the rules and reasons I've covered the past few posts backing up that line of RAI, I quite honestly can't see why a FAQ/errata even seem to be neccessary (with everything I've read now). If they do do it, it will just be to shut the people up who are saying it is possible because they don't read anywhere it isn't. That has never been how this rule set worked, ever. A rule set created from lines and lines of what you cannot do would not be a marketable game, it would be huge (As in page count) and near impossible to navigate.

And incidentally from where I'm standing the employee of the company who wrote the book is a heck of a lot more 'official' than some random internet poster saying 'nuh uh, it doesn't say I can't'... But hey, to each their own. If in your head you want to blur or ignore the distinction between a 'standard' custom magical weapon and a specifically defined class ability, go for it. The rules don't cross that line, the rules don't say you can do it so therefore that option is 'off the table' in the most strict (PFS organized play) reading.


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Skylancer4 wrote:
stuff

All your ideas are perfectly reasonable house rules. None of them are supported by RAW, however, so don't act like they are, or that someone is trying to pull something over on the GM by wanting to get their sword enchanted.

I don't know why you're so hung up on it being a class ability. Yeah, he gained it by a class ability. It's still a magic sword. Just like an animal companion, a class ability is still, by the rules, an animal.

The whole named thing you bring up is a cool idea, and plenty of games actually have rules for that sort of thing. This one doesn't. There are two options: Mundane sword, magic sword. That's it.

And I don't know why you keep bringing up the crafting feats. The melee guy never has the crafting feats. He takes his bag o' coin to the local enchanter and says 'magic this up.' Obviously someone has to have the feat, but who does is really not relevant to the question at hand.

I think in my game I'll let them be enchanted however the player wants, because I just don't see a reason not to allow it. If they add an enhancement bonus, it will just get overwritten when the sword gets to that level anyway, so it would be a waste of cash...

I can dig the idea of 'named' magic items not being able to be further enchanted, but I don't want that for my world. I think it's arbitrary to say once a magic weapon is named it can't get more powerful. Or maybe I'll just say that if it's intelligent, the item itself has to approve of the new enchant...

Silver Crusade

Skylancer4 wrote:

Actually you do need to have access to the feat and prereqs or are you just going to ignore that part of RAW? Do you specifically need it? No, but the person doing the enchanting does. The progression of the class ability is set by the table, which is remarkably similar to that of a familiar or are you going to ignore that as well? Is it a familiar exactly, no, just like it isn't exactly a 'magical sword.' It is something different and unique to the archtype. It does what it says it does, nothing less, nothing more. If it was intended to be modified, it would have been errata'd by now. RAW gives progression and ways to enhance the class ability, no where does it say it can be modified further than that.

'Just because it says it can't' isn't a valid arguement on a rule set based on giving the general rules of what you can do and specific exceptions to the general rules. It is a class ability, it acts in some ways like a weapon. It isn't your generic standard run of the mill magic weapon like you are saying it is. There are multiple significant differences, not the least of which is it having a strict progression and limitations to what it does and can have.

If you cannot come up with something more than 'I can because the rules don't say I can't' there isn't much more to be said to you. The rules DON'T say you can add abilities to the Blackblade (which again is at worst a named magical weapon which you seemed to ignore) via feats and spending character wealth. They do say you get a specific enhancement at a particular range of levels and it can be further enhanced with the characters other class ability, arcane pool. Specific rules trump general rules, and there are a whole lot of specifics in regard to this class ability.

JJ may not be the errata guy, but given the rules and reasons I've covered the past few posts backing up that line of RAI, I quite honestly can't see why a FAQ/errata even seem to be neccessary (with everything I've read now). If they do...

Im going to assume this is a response to me.. Your are aware that everything you have stated.. would generally be considered House rules One.. And two would be refutted By Anyone with a familiar or AC... Are you ALSO saying it is impossible to give an AC or Familiar a headband of say.. Intellect +2 because they are a CLASS ABILITY? Or a ring or Amulet.. assuming they have the anatomy? If not it is equally as odd to suddenly have a weapon.. not be enchantable...


Grats on being 'ok' with it in your world. I'm not here to discuss your house rules. I'm here to see what the rules say on the subject by the book. It isn't a 'magic sword', it is a class ability that says 'choose' a weapon with certain critiera that this class ability acts like for purposes of damage and usage. At certain levels, it has certain abilities and qualities, this can be expanded upon by using other class abilities. There is rules wise, a HUGE difference between that and your 'you get free magic sword to do whatever you want with.' That right there is a house rule and you taking liberties with the specific rules of the ability and general magical weapon creation rules.

If you want to be generous with it in your game, that's fine. BUT some people don't have that 'option' because organized play requires a more strict reading of the rules to maintain a baseline. If the rules don't say you can do something or ignore something, it doesn't fly. The Black Blade ability isn't just some generic magical weapon, its write up doesn't say it can be enhanced further by using the general magic item creation feats in its specific rules write up, therefore because the rules don't say it, you cannot do it.

Go to the PFS forum and ask a rules question, you'll get sent here or your post will be moved if it isn't covered in the organized play packet. The specific ability lacks the wording or reference to the general magic weapon creation. If you were talking about the 'bonded item' ability your take on it would be correct, that isn't the case with the Bladebound class ability. It doesn't say it can be done, so strictly speaking it cannot. Not sure why that is so hard for you to understand or accept. We don't all play in your little bubble and some of us actually have to follow the words on the page...


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Skylancer4 wrote:

Grats on being 'ok' with it in your world. I'm not here to discuss your house rules. I'm here to see what the rules say on the subject by the book. It isn't a 'magic sword', it is a class ability that says 'choose' a weapon with certain critiera that this class ability acts like for purposes of damage and usage. At certain levels, it has certain abilities and qualities, this can be expanded upon by using other class abilities. There is rules wise, a HUGE difference between that and your 'you get free magic sword to do whatever you want with.' That right there is a house rule and you taking liberties with the specific rules of the ability and general magical weapon creation rules.

If you want to be generous with it in your game, that's fine. BUT some people don't have that 'option' because organized play requires a more strict reading of the rules to maintain a baseline. If the rules don't say you can do something or ignore something, it doesn't fly. The Black Blade ability isn't just some generic magical weapon, its write up doesn't say it can be enhanced further by using the general magic item creation feats in its specific rules write up, therefore because the rules don't say it, you cannot do it.

Go to the PFS forum and ask a rules question, you'll get sent here or your post will be moved if it isn't covered in the organized play packet. The specific ability lacks the wording or reference to the general magic weapon creation. If you were talking about the 'bonded item' ability your take on it would be correct, that isn't the case with the Bladebound class ability. It doesn't say it can be done, so strictly speaking it cannot. Not sure why that is so hard for you to understand or accept. We don't all play in your little bubble and some of us actually have to follow the words on the page...

I honestly find that a black blade does not need further enchanting as it is fine as is but this argument does bother me.

If something comes from a class ability or not does not change how rules effect it. A paladins mount is treated by the rules as any other mount except where stated otherwise. This is how the system has always worked general rules ALWAYS apply unless there is a specific rule otherwise.

The black blade is an intelligent item. It follows those rules unless there is something specific that changes that.

Do I wish there was? Sure and it might very well be an oversight. But making up baseless arguments to push how I think it should be? Not going to do that.

There is no rule that something from a class ability is treated differently nor is there a rule that this specifically is treated in some other way.

Grand Lodge

Endoralis wrote:
Im going to assume this is a response to me.. Your are aware that everything you have stated.. would generally be considered House rules One.. And two would be refutted By Anyone with a familiar or AC... Are you ALSO saying it is impossible to give an AC or Familiar a headband of say.. Intellect +2 because they are a CLASS ABILITY? Or a ring or Amulet.. assuming they have the anatomy? If not it is equally as odd to suddenly have a weapon.. not be enchantable...

You might want to reconsider your stance, Endoralis.

From the Black Blade rules (UM, Page 48) wrote:


A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type.

Now, what that means is that, if the Bladebound Magus asks someone to enhance his weapon for him, that person must start any enhancements from masterwork. Even better, it makes it seem that any enhancement done by the non-Magus immediately gets suppressed, so the non-Magus can never do more than make it a +1 weapon, which immediately starts acting as though it were only masterwork.

So, in other words, for anyone but the Magus, the Black Blade always and ever acts like only a masterwork weapon, which means that only enhancements which can be added to a masterwork weapon could be added. And, since it doesn't include the text from the Amulet of Mighty Fists, means that it can only be enhanced by anyone but the Bladebound Magus to a +1 weapon.

Now, if the Magus wants to waste her feats on Craft Magic Arms & Armor, learning various spells that probably aren't on her spell list, and/or spend feats improving her Spellcraft check, given that Intelligence for a Magus is probably never going to be as high as a Wizard's would be, then it moves into GM Fiat.

Then again, it also moves into the area covered by the personality of the Black Blade itself. The Magus would have to either make a series of Will checks, while doing the crafting, or convince the Black Blade that it really wants some enhancement or other....

And, of course, if the enhancement is priced/costed as a +X bonus, it wouldn't be possible for any GM who has looked ta the Black Blade to allow that. Or else you have to spend an ever increasing amount of time and gold every few times you level to re-enable enchantment X, because the price/cost for it has just changed...

For static priced enhancements, they, again, could only be added by the Magus herself, and, because of the 200,000 gp enhancement cap that is a legacy of 3.0/3.5, I wouldn't allow it myself.


That's all nice and good if you assume "refuses to use" means they somehow are not there. But there is no rules text to enforce that. Because something will not function in use does not equal not there. At least not without a leap that is not supported but also not unsupported by RAW.

Again they really should just come down with a flat yes or no to this.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Grats on being 'ok' with it in your world. I'm not here to discuss your house rules. I'm here to see what the rules say on the subject by the book. It isn't a 'magic sword', it is a class ability that says 'choose' a weapon with certain critiera that this class ability acts like for purposes of damage and usage.

Lol. So it's not a sword, it's a class ability that looks like a sword, swings like a sword, does damage like a sword, but it's not a sword. Got it. Funniest, most awesomely bizarre interpretation I've ever heard. Now please go find the reference where it explains items gained via class features are not actually items, and follow their own set of rules.

'By the book' clearly means something different to you than to most people that try to parse RAW. Or you have a very different book than the rest of us...

Grand Lodge

Stome wrote:

That's all nice and good if you assume "refuses to use" means they somehow are not there. But there is no rules text to enforce that. Because something will not function in use does not equal not there. At least not without a leap that is not supported but also not unsupported by RAW.

Again they really should just come down with a flat yes or no to this.

Again, maybe you should consider the words in the rules text: acts as a masterwork weapon.

Acts as a masterwork weapon means that, as far as the person trying to use it or enchant it is concerned, it is a masterwork weapon.

If it acts as a masterwork weapon, how does the caster enchant it other than as a masterwork weapon?

Or do we just say, "Welcome to the Twilight Zone." and treat the radio that only plays 20-year-old radio programs for one person as though we could hear it, too?


kinevon wrote:
Stome wrote:

That's all nice and good if you assume "refuses to use" means they somehow are not there. But there is no rules text to enforce that. Because something will not function in use does not equal not there. At least not without a leap that is not supported but also not unsupported by RAW.

Again they really should just come down with a flat yes or no to this.

Again, maybe you should consider the words in the rules text: acts as a masterwork weapon.

Acts as a masterwork weapon means that, as far as the person trying to use it or enchant it is concerned, it is a masterwork weapon.

If it acts as a masterwork weapon, how does the caster enchant it other than as a masterwork weapon?

Or do we just say, "Welcome to the Twilight Zone." and treat the radio that only plays 20-year-old radio programs for one person as though we could hear it, too?

If you look up the word "acts" you will see that it is not the same as "is". There does not seem to be any support that a magic item must be functioning for the person enchanting it. More so the little bit of text you are clinging to says "normally". Not always or must. So feasibly if someone can talk their black blade into behaving then it would not matter.

To dang much vague and imprecise wording as seems to be common anymore.


Vestrial wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Grats on being 'ok' with it in your world. I'm not here to discuss your house rules. I'm here to see what the rules say on the subject by the book. It isn't a 'magic sword', it is a class ability that says 'choose' a weapon with certain critiera that this class ability acts like for purposes of damage and usage.

Lol. So it's not a sword, it's a class ability that looks like a sword, swings like a sword, does damage like a sword, but it's not a sword. Got it. Funniest, most awesomely bizarre interpretation I've ever heard. Now please go find the reference where it explains items gained via class features are not actually items, and follow their own set of rules.

'By the book' clearly means something different to you than to most people that try to parse RAW. Or you have a very different book than the rest of us...

Right after you find the reference that says it can be done....

I get you don't like it, I get you don't like it enough that one of the devs from Paizo (which incidentally is what PFS has to follow even if it isn't FAQ'd/Errata'd) said it doesn't work and you are willing to ignore that ruling. I get that you cannot provide a ruling contrary to that. Basically, at this point I 'get' that trying to have a discussion (versus an argument) with you about this point is useless.


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Skylancer4 wrote:

Right after you find the reference that says it can be done....

I get you don't like it, I get you don't like it enough that one of the devs from Paizo (which incidentally is what PFS has to follow even if it isn't FAQ'd/Errata'd) said it doesn't work and you are willing to ignore that ruling. I get that you cannot provide a ruling contrary to that. Basically, at this point I 'get' that trying to have a discussion (versus an argument) with you about this point is useless.

You obviously don't 'get' the point at all. I don't care either way. My point is that the rules don't say, either way. You can interpret it any way you like, but passing off your interpretation is RAW is just flat dishonest.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Has there been any ruling or decisive argument that would allow my bladebound magus to enchant his black blade nine-ring sword to function as a ten-ring sword? The character is kinda' obsessed about having as many magical rings as possible.

Given a 9 ring broadsword just has 9 rings to add wieght and a musical element to the weapon, sure punch an extra hole and pop in another...

As far as I know, mundane or enchanted rings provide no additional benefit to that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Let me repeat, for the naysayers: THERE IS NO RULE THAT STATES A BLACK BLADE CANNOT BE ENCHANTED.

I can do the shouting bit too. THERE IS NO RULE THAT SAYS THAT A BLACK BLADE CAN BE ENCHANTED, JUST AS THERE IS NO RULE THAT A FAMILLIAR CAN BE ENCHANTED.

There, now are we ready to talk like adults now? The Black Blade is not an ordinary weapon, it's not a masterwork weapon, it's something completely different. It's something more closer to being a familliar than a bodkin. It is something other than a legitimate target of the enchantment process.

Would my argument be easier to read for you if I posted in all caps?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
I get you don't like it, I get you don't like it enough that one of the devs from Paizo (which incidentally is what PFS has to follow

Actually, no it doesn't. Just like any other game, it has it's own house rules which are imposed by our Mighty and Feared Master Mark. Which are clearly listed in the relevant campaign documentation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just curious, but in general, can you enchant an intelligent item? It would seem possible that an intelligent item might object to being enchanted further depending on the ego. In addition, the text for intelligent items says that:

PRD wrote:
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

Which begs the question . . . can you add weapon enhancements to intelligent weapons while still treating them like constructs? If no, then it follows that the Black Blade would not be enchantable as it is an intelligent item.

I dunno, just idle musings. I hold to the theory that it can't be enhanced, if just because allowing it would make balance really wonky as if you load up the enchantments early, you are getting a lot of bang for your buck by allowing the natural progression to fill in the higher-cost enhancement bonuses for free.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:

There is no rule that says a black blade can be enchanted, just as there is no rule that a familiar can be enchanted.

The Black Blade is not an ordinary weapon, it's not a masterwork weapon, it's something completely different. It's something closer to being a familiar than a bodkin. It is something other than a legitimate target of the enchantment process.

Fighting fire with fire ensures only that everyone burns.

As for familiars, they can be enchanted. You can use permanency to change their size, give their natural attacks enhancement bonuses, or perform other alterations. Their are numerous other methods as well, such as giving them the unholy waters of Lamashtu, or throwing them into a Fleshwarper's chemical vat.

So if a familiar can be enchanted, why not a simple sword?

Scaevola77 wrote:

Just curious, but in general, can you enchant an intelligent item? It would seem possible that an intelligent item might object to being enchanted further depending on the ego. In addition, the text for intelligent items says that:

PRD wrote:
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

Which begs the question . . . can you add weapon enhancements to intelligent weapons while still treating them like constructs? If no, then it follows that the Black Blade would not be enchantable as it is an intelligent item.

I dunno, just idle musings. I hold to the theory that it can't be enhanced, if just because allowing it would make balance really wonky as if you load up the enchantments early, you are getting a lot of bang for your buck by allowing the natural progression to fill in the higher-cost enhancement bonuses for free.

You can increase the powers of an intelligent item just as you can with any other magical item. Considering it increases their power and their Ego, I would think it an odd item that would refuse such a gift (about as odd as an adventurer saying no to a permanent ability increase). The only time I honestly think it would happen is if the new changes were incompatible with the item's theme (a weapon whose goal is to burn the world probably won't care for the frost enchantment) or when it believes its would be enchanter to be incompetent (and possibly capable of turning it into a cursed item).


You can enchant a Construct.


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LazarX wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Let me repeat, for the naysayers: THERE IS NO RULE THAT STATES A BLACK BLADE CANNOT BE ENCHANTED.

I can do the shouting bit too. THERE IS NO RULE THAT SAYS THAT A BLACK BLADE CAN BE ENCHANTED, JUST AS THERE IS NO RULE THAT A FAMILLIAR CAN BE ENCHANTED.

There, now are we ready to talk like adults now? The Black Blade is not an ordinary weapon, it's not a masterwork weapon, it's something completely different. It's something more closer to being a familliar than a bodkin. It is something other than a legitimate target of the enchantment process.

It's being 'completely different' is entirely your interpretation. Unless you care to cite the rules that talk about items that are 'completely different' from other items, and explains how to deal with them?

And you're right, it's no longer just masterwork, because it's already enchanted. But being enchanted entails that it was first masterwork. Unless you're going to claim 'sentient' items aren't 'regular' magic items, in which case I'd again ask for the reference (this may well be the intent, but it's certainly not explained in RAW).

RAW wrote:
Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon.
RAW wrote:
the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade

The reason it 'acts' like a masterwork sword in anyone else's hands is because it is a masterwork sword under all the magic. The sentience can suppress all it's cool abilities, but it can't suppress it's masterworkness. This is not interpretation, this just logically follows from the rules.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vestrial wrote:

And you're right, it's no longer just masterwork, because it's already enchanted. But being enchanted entails that it was first masterwork. Unless you're going to claim 'sentient' items aren't 'regular' magic items, in which case I'd again ask for the reference (this may well be the intent, but it's certainly not explained in RAW).

The Blackblade seems to be in flavor not an item that began as an ordinary blade as more of a sentient being that has taken the form of a sword and placed itself in conjoining it's destiny with that of your magus.

There's a reason they're called Baby Stormbringers.

Liberty's Edge

Vestrial wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Basically it is what it is. As a house rule feel free to let them as always, but RAW doesn't state any way for the 'free' intelligent magic item class ability it be improved beyond spending points from another class ability.
There are rules for enchanting swords. There are even rules for adding enchantments to items that already have enchantments. This is a sword. It has an enchantment. There is nothing, RAW, that indicates it should be treated otherwise.

1) reading the black blade description I don't see any point where it say it is a masterwork weapon. It say: "A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type."

You can assume that mean it is a masterwork weapon, but it is never explicitly said.
To enchant a weapon it should be masterwork so we have already a problem here.

2) it has a variable enhancement, but I read it as is: it a +5 weapon that let you use only some of its powers until you get the right level.
So even if you rule that it can be enhanced you will have to add the power to a +5 weapon.

3) As it has already been pointed out if you add a straight + to the bonus of the blade it will be alter superseded by the weapon increasing enhancement. I wouldn't allow the addition of a + increase.

To sum it up, I would allow the enhancement of a black blade, but I would price the cost as enhancing a +5 weapon, regardless of the current weapon bonus and wouldn't allow the addition of straight plus, only of special abilities.

Regarding RD question , the ten-ring sword is a very special item and I wouldn't allow that enhancement on other kinds of weapons.

Grand Lodge

Let's just ask these first:

1) Can you cast Magic Weapon or any other spell that targets a weapon on a Blackblade?

2) Is the Blackblade treated as weapon and an object for the purposes of feats and abilities?

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Let's just ask these first:

1) Can you cast Magic Weapon or any other spell that targets a weapon on a Blackblade?

2) Is the Blackblade treated as weapon and an object for the purposes of feats and abilities?

1) Maybe, not really clear. Even if you cast it on it, it would get a save against the effect if it wants.

2) For some, but not all. For instance, against Sunder, it can and will act differently than most weapons.

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