Magic in Pathfinder Online


Pathfinder Online

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Dakcenturi wrote:
One thing I would like to see down the line aside from just finding spells and copying them is spell research and group spells.

Ooh, you know, group spells could be an interesting and fun way to deal with a out of control Escalation of creatures in a hex!

Link- [url]http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pba4?Daily-Update-is-Up[/url]

I was pondering how that could be handled and large group spells are certainly one way. Another being mass assault on the hex by a large force of players obviously :)

Lantern Lodge

I like the idea of spell research, particularly if they include a spell maker, not simply researching existing spells.

@Valandur
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Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

That would be one of the main aspects of my guild MAGI to do spell research and setup things for group spells and the like so I'm am extremely interested in that aspect of the game.

At the least with Stephen's comments we'll be the goto place to get your spellbooks with what they are discussing.

Things I could see as *group* spells would potentially be setting up some sort of temporary transit portal or doing things like consecrating/desecrating chunks of land to have some sort of alignment effect, maybe opening extra-planar gates etc.

@DarkLightHitomi I completely agree, if they add in functionality to actually create spells to some degree with research that would be really cool. Maybe something along the lines of Magicka :D

Goblin Squad Member

If GW was to implement it, then retaining the creative combinations of spells from Pathfinder would be one of my favorite features. I have a lot of mmories of combinations used in innovative or funny ways, like a puddle of water being summoned under a door and then elctrified to kill the person behind it or using stone to mud and then mud to stone to trap enemies or negate the effects of wind or gravity manipulation or using a voice activated Delayed Fireball combined with Magic Mouth to set up a trap to name just a few.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:

I like the idea of spell research, particularly if they include a spell maker, not simply researching existing spells.

@Valandur
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I believe the most fun about spell research would be hunting for that rare arcane texts, gathering rare materials and making the proper research. The spells should be worth the effort tho.

Lantern Lodge

Actually a great way to mix the creation with the hunt would be to learn elements and effects that would then become available as effects for spell creation.

However, they need to distnguish absorbing magic.

In Oblivion I tried to make a life absorbing spell but paid for two different effects, the healing efffect cost normal plus the normal cost for hurting, the cost for absorbing should be higher then just hurting but be cheaper then hurting and healing together.

If they need ideas on a spell maker system I could flesh one out rather quickly (working on a weapons maker one for mass effect right now so I'm in the mode)

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

DarkLightHitomi wrote:


If they need ideas on a spell maker system I could flesh one out rather quickly (working on a weapons maker one for mass effect right now so I'm in the mode)

Hehe I would be interested to see what you come up with. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Similarly the system can be modified into bard spell abilities ;) different effects of different tunes xD

I've been working on a sort of group casting idea in my head for a while. Particularly for some very powerful spells xD

For example:

Summon Greater Demon
Demon Lord
Demon Prince

Each would need more casters for a successful cast, and for the last one in particular you'd need even MORE mages on hand to contain it until you could dominate it and get it under control.

Fail to control it and goodbye summoners, you have an angry demon on the loose.

Imagine a city under siege with a group of mages working to summon a powerful creature to lead the assault. Desperately trying to take out the summoners before they complete the spell.

For a mechanic, I thought of something like a spell circle that all the participants join, and there are symbols that appear and orbit the circle. Each person in the circle would have to interact with only the symbols relevant to their position in the circle as they came in front of them (colour coded or something, doesn't have to be a puzzle or anything) So instead of just sitting there with a timer for a few mins (these should be long rituals) you're actively playing a minigame.

Lantern Lodge

Yes, I wouldn't mind some longer timed abilities, but make it so you are playing a minigame, if you do poorly then you just get the ability, but if you do superawesome, the ability might get bonuses, or if there are multiple possibilties on the outcome of the minigame let the different outcomes do different things to the spell. I.E. a summon creature spell has a short minigame of matching three sliding tiles together, if you match three gold ones the summon gets the celestial template, or three ebony tiles and get the infernal template, or three rubies and get a fire touched template, but if you fail to do this in time, you just get a normal, or neutral creature.

@Dakcenturi
I'll make one and post it, though it might take 2-3 days.

Goblin Squad Member

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Hark wrote:
Spell research would be amazing. It's basically the primary job of my favorite RPG character and the one I intend to be my main character in PFO.

Adapting something like the Words of Power system from Ultimate Magic could be very interesting. Not only could you 'break down' spellbooks and reassemble them, you could break down and reassemble the spells themselves.

Trade out the 'force damage' component of a magic missile for something like fire, which could be resisted, and you might bump the die type up to 1d6+2 per missile. Add a valuable material component to the requirements of summon monster and you might make one that lasts ten times as long as the basic version.

This could be how metamagic is implemented, and spell research could be the unique thing about wizardry just as the bloodline powers are the unique thing about sorcery. Sorcerers could still learn altered spells and may even seek out certain types of alterations that complement their bloodline abilities, but to make the changes themselves, they'd need to train many research/metamagic skills. Wizards would be the more natural choice for researchers, and the 'metamagic or item creation' bonus feats they get in the tabletop game could be unified into a tree of 'magic crafting' skills that train faster with higher intelligence scores and other 'research boosting' badges that the wizard line provides.

Goblin Squad Member

I just hope magic in the game will not only be focusing on the typical offence and defence, affliction and cure etc. To me the most exciting thing about playing magic characters in RPG games are the nifty and clever things you can do. The same for dungeons or any adventure, there should be many ways to resolve and upcoming challenge. For instance, opening a great door could be done by looking for the proper key somwhere in the dungeon, maybe cast gaseous form and fly through a crack in the door, maybe cut a chain and pushing a stone column into the door so it cracks open, a rogue might use lockpicking, a fighter might try to bash the door open. The more ways you can solve a upcoming challenge the more unique the adventure will become. Would be great if magic felt not just reactive to a certain situation but you could actually do some proactive planning and spellcasting.

Goblin Squad Member

Sunwader wrote:
I just hope magic in the game will not only be focusing on the typical offence and defence, affliction and cure etc. To me the most exciting thing about playing magic characters in RPG games are the nifty and clever things you can do. The same for dungeons or any adventure, there should be many ways to resolve and upcoming challenge. For instance, opening a great door could be done by looking for the proper key somwhere in the dungeon, maybe cast gaseous form and fly through a crack in the door, maybe cut a chain and pushing a stone column into the door so it cracks open, a rogue might use lockpicking, a fighter might try to bash the door open. The more ways you can solve a upcoming challenge the more unique the adventure will become. Would be great if magic felt not just reactive to a certain situation but you could actually do some proactive planning and spellcasting.

Basically have useful utility spells, not just offensive/defensive spells. I would definately like that. I love playing utility wizards in PnP games.

Goblin Squad Member

I loved in UO that there were a bunch of these sorts of spells, like polymorph, magic lock/trap/unlock/telekinesis, summoning animals, creating food, nightsight that weren;t all just combat abilities. Polymorph was almost completely pointless, it was cosmetic... useful against the succubus champion Semidar because she reflected spells cast by males (so you polymorphed into a female to attack her)

And incognito... just randomly changed your appearance and name so you seemed to be someone else.

Lantern Lodge

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Darkcenturi asked for my spell maker concept.

Here is the basics of what I have though specifics are still in the making.

Every spell effect has a class (Create, control, alter, boost, drain) and a power level (Mild, weak, minor, moderate, major, strong, epic) and can have a special effect type or an energy type (Effect types would be like gravity, energy types include,Force, acid, Chaos/law, cold, light/dark, life/death, electricity, fire, good/evil, sonic. The ones seperated by a "/" are the same energy type but a different name depending on whether you are boosting or draining it.)

These effects are what is learned piecemeal, you are limited to the power level by your skill in magic, but each energy/effect type paired with each class is learned seperate I.E. "create fire" is different from "control fire" the former would make fire from nothing while the latter would just control an existing fire. Obviously not all combinations are useful.

A spell has one or more effects plus,
Duration,
Target,
Material componants (not inherently needed in spells but often used to reduce the mana and complexity costs, basically useing a material allows for shortcuts that make it easier and cheaper to cast, the amount can be determined mechanically by the rarity and type of material),
Casting time, and
Meta-effects (basically every spell requires Verbal and Somatic componants, but you can build a spell to not require these. Other metamagic effects can be built into the spell which could then be cast even without the casting wizard knowing the feats, Feather Fall for example has the Still Spell metamagic built in so anyone can cast it without somatics. Also, metamagic feats would stack because these effects are built into and are a part of the spell.)

These elements all have a cost in Mana and Complexity, which can be used as is, with mana being the casting cost and complexity being the difficulty and skill required or they can be multiplied into a final number for use with the standard spell slot system.

It was easier then trying to go straight to SL (Spell Level), and I figure I'll use this in RnR.

Example spell
Feather Fall
Effect; Gravity, Drain, Mild = M (Mana) -1, C (Complexity) +1
Duration; One round per CL (Caster Level) = M +2, C +1
Target; Ranged Touch, Close Range, Selected, per CL = M +1, C +1
Materials; None
Metamagic; Stilled = C+1
Casting Time; Immediate action (or the equivelent for PFO) = C +4
M*C=2*8= 16 which falls into SL 1 which ranges from 10-18 (still working on the numbers for balance)

Lightning Bolt
Effect; Electricity, Create, Moderate = M+2, M +2, C +3
Duration; Instantaneous = M + 1, C -1
Target; AOE Line, Close Range, 5' diameter = M+2, C+2,
Materials; Common Mana Item = M-1
Metamagic; Enlarged = M + 2, C +1
Casting Time; Standard Action = C +1
M*C = 8*6 = 48
SL = 3

You could modify this into making the lightning bolt a 10' diameter Line or medium range by adding M + 4, but that would make the spell something like SL 4 or even SL 5.

What do you think so far?

Goblin Squad Member

Wow, DLH, I really like where you're going with that!

It would be great to have a calculator with which we could build spells and see how they come out in mana cost/spell slots (assuming the spell slots are an abstraction to group a certain range of mana costs for ease of use). We could see if the system breaks down in certain places by having lots of folks test it.

Would the restricted school(s) of a specialist have a complexity multiplier (x1.5?) to represent their limited command of the aspects of magic involved, or would you just call someone a 'specialist' if neglect training in an area or two? The trouble with the latter approach is that eventually everyone would 'grow out of' a very narrow specialization towards more of a universalist. That may or may not be desired.

I'd love to play a wizard researching spells like that, trading with other wizards for their research, and even selling some to sorcerers who could bind these unique spells to themselves by undergoing some kind of ritual that takes the magic in a scroll and channels it into their blood.

Lantern Lodge

Personally, I would say specialists would get discounts on effects in their schools, but to be more correct to PF/DnD, you could always add to the costs of opposition schools instead.

Group casting would be similar, divide the cost/complexity by the number of participants.

Either way, those would apply after spell creation.

Edit;m I could add a number of casters which would reduce the costs much like how the mats reduce costs. Hmm, something to consider.

Divine Vs. Arcane could also provide bonuses or penalties based on school as well, but again would be added after spell creation.

Goblin Squad Member

Am I reading this correctly. The Wizard class feature Prepared Spells has been tossed out, and replaced with simple, casting straight out of spellbooks. Considering all the talk about going into battle with spellbooks in hand instead of staff or wand, or perhaps a scroll. I also taking a guess here that the spells don't vanish from spellbook when used. So what limits will be in place to control the amount of casting for wizards.

For sorcerers I guess spell casting will remain the same as or similar to table top game.

Divine casters simply have a big list to choose from when they need to cast spells.

Lantern Lodge

From what I can tell, there may be spellpoints, but I will have to dig for the spot where they mentioned that, so until then, here's some salt.

Above in the thread, it was stated, or suspected, that you would have spells that individually fit on your bar as well as spellbooks.

Lantern Lodge

Keovar wrote:

Wow, DLH, I really like where you're going with that!

It would be great to have a calculator with which we could build spells and see how they come out in mana cost/spell slots (assuming the spell slots are an abstraction to group a certain range of mana costs for ease of use). We could see if the system breaks down in certain places by having lots of folks test it.

Would the restricted school(s) of a specialist have a complexity multiplier (x1.5?) to represent their limited command of the aspects of magic involved, or would you just call someone a 'specialist' if neglect training in an area or two? The trouble with the latter approach is that eventually everyone would 'grow out of' a very narrow specialization towards more of a universalist. That may or may not be desired.

I'd love to play a wizard researching spells like that, trading with other wizards for their research, and even selling some to sorcerers who could bind these unique spells to themselves by undergoing some kind of ritual that takes the magic in a scroll and channels it into their blood.

Thanks!

The calculator will have to wait, as I don't have a computer right now, and the library doesn't have compilers.

If someone else would like to build the calculator, I can PM the lists of costs as I finish making them.

----
Sorcerer's don't need ritual or anything so silly as binding, the sorcerers can research and learn spells just like a wizard does, the big difference is sorcerers go by "feel" and wizards go by study and precision. Similar to the difference between an artist that hand draws things and an engineer who uses a ruler and compass. An engineer thinks and designs carefully ever exacting detail, an artist goes by what "feels" right.

Edit; oh and the sorcerer memorizes everything, where as the wizard writes it down. This is why a sorcerer has a limit spell known list.

Goblin Squad Member

Recall that Wizardry and Sorcery are skills, and you could potentially have both. The wizard might equip his power slots with books, the sorcerer with bloodline icons, and a character with training in both could equip a mix of them. The mana pool is shared, but things cast from the sorcerer side, or the wizards specialization school, could have a discount. That lets them cast more of those spells. You could even do things so that everyone has the same potential mana pool (say 1000) and depending on the skill level and associated casting stat (Wizard 'level' & Intelligence) spells from that skill have a discounted cost. This could solve the problem of characters with multiple casting classes having their mana pools either added or tracked separately. It isn't the mana that changes, it's your efficiency at using it.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:


Sorcerer's don't need ritual or anything so silly as binding, the sorcerers can research and learn spells just like a wizard does, the big difference is sorcerers go by "feel" and wizards go by study and precision. Similar to the difference between an artist that hand draws things and an engineer who uses a ruler and compass. An engineer thinks and designs carefully ever exacting detail, an artist goes by what "feels" right.

Edit; oh and the sorcerer memorizes everything, where as the wizard writes it down. This is why a sorcerer has a limit spell known list.

Those are lore-based descriptions and analogies, but I don't see where the mechanics come in. So far, it seems sorcerers will change spells more freely than their tabletop counterparts, but not as freely as wizards. I was thinking they could go to their equipping place and choose spells out of the books and/or scrolls they have, which could possibly be explained and animated as a short ritual. If they just read and memorize them, that is itself a sort of ritual. I don't really agree with the sorcery skill doing research just like wizardry, though. Sorcery is about having more 'juice', wizardry is about having more versatility.

Lantern Lodge

Having just read a post, the question comes to me, why are wizards specifically called out being the utility casters?

The impression I got is that wizards could have multiple spellbokks with 6 spells a peice, but a sorcerer is stuck with 1-3 spells. This is very not what I want to see. I understand sorcerers should have less spells known then a wizard, but a sorcerer with only 3 spells, isn't a very good sorcerer and is a very big reason to avoid sorcerers, which is sad cause they are my favorite class.

I recommend giving sorcerers a "spells memorized" ability buttons which work like spellbooks except can't be changed out, the spells memorized could be changed out like when a wizard is crafting a spellbook, but that isn't something done out in the woods between combat.

This way the wizard keeps the versatility of "can trade out books between combat", but the sorcerer isn't left out of the big time caster club.

Edit; there are 4 slots for spells or spellbooks, there is a big difference between 4 and 24 (4 spellbooks with 6 spells each),

Of course you could limit a sorcerer on how many of these are available based on level, so a novice can have 1 Spells Memorized with 6 spells, and a high level could have all 4.

If you really wanted to limit the selection available in combat compared to wizards, you could limit a sorcerer to having only 2 or 3, while the wizard can always have all 4 as books

(not recommended, since a wizards versatiliy has always been out of combat, in combat, sorcerers have always been more versatile a trait dissapearing already with the new mechanics, putting them farther behind seems wrong)

This concept can also apply to divine casters, clerics and druids can have "Spells Readied" buttons. This gives all major casters the ability to have many spells in combat, while wizards still have the advantage of swapping out of combat. Clerics and druids might have the option every morning to change spells, but only once a day.

Goblin Squad Member

@DLH
Does your system take into account the increasing expertise of the spellcaster. I mean at early levels it would work fine but at higher levels the spellcaster just has to narrow his focus with less regard to complexity in order to abuse the system. If you draw from a mana pool then you wont have a limited amount of spells, for example Dimension Door only has a V component and 1 standard action to cast. Sense your a high level spellcaster you can take the hit to remove the V component, speed up the casting, and lower the mana cost by adding complexity. Now you have a very abuseable spell to escape, position, bypass, or travel a rather large distance. Not to mention zero arcane failure chance so go plate while your at it.

While I like the idea I would be very detailed in its execution to avoid unbalancing the game. Everyone will be able to use magic in PFO with a little training. I would suggest you make it so that only those that focus in it can use its greater abilities. Dont need the dabbler going toe to toe with the spellcaster because they min/maxed the spell.

Would also want to know if and/or how other skills will interact with spells. Would a good bluff or slight of hand allow you to hide your V and S components in plain sight. Normally that kinda stuff falls to the bard, but then again this is not a regular class system. Just some things to consider.

Goblin Squad Member

It has seemed to me to be similar to what you are saying. Sorcerers would have a harder time switching out their spells and some slots to use for bloodline powers (of course, wizards would have a few specialization powers, but they tend to be less significant). Both might spend some slots on a crossbow early on, and later, on a staff or other item. I don't know where the idea that sorcerers would only have 3 spells comes from.

Lantern Lodge

Because there are 4 slots where you can slot abilities, spells, or spellbooks.
I sounded like only wizards could use spellbooks, which means a wizard can turn each of those 4 slots into 6 spells, for a total of 24, while sorcerers can only slot a spell or ability into each for a max of 4.

And that is just if you don't try to use any other abilities in those slots.

This info comes from the post that Nihimon linked to early in this thread. Plus the blog post on the ability bar.

Give me a sec to link them here.

Edit:

Okay, I missed the "per level" part the first time so it's not quite as bad as I was thinking, however the wizard having more spells in combat is kinda backwards.

The sorcerer has always been the one for putting spells down range, the wizard has always been the "give me 15 minutes and I can get us past anything," the careful planning ahead of time because he can switch spells out but has to be careful about it because he can only put out about 2/3rds of what a sorcerer does.

From Goblinworks Blog: A Three-Headed Hydra

A wizard will only have access to a limited number in a given combat, but the strength of the wizard is he can change spell books from encounter to encounter to take advantage of his opponent's weaknesses or the general situation, while a sorcerer is sort of stuck with what he's got. So while a wizard may only have 1-3 spells per level available in a given fight, he can have far more than that if he wants to carry around some extras.

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Exert;
Refresh Slots
Most combat abilities that are not tied to weapons are Refresh abilities, and they're placed in slots 7–10. These are things like spells, rage abilities, etc. If a character has a spellbook equipped, it can go into one of these slots; activating the spellbook turns all weapon slots into spell slots determined by the spellbook. Wizards will have to find and equip different spellbooks to get access to different spells, with some books being more valuable or rare than others.

Goblin Squad Member

So to give the sorcerer back the ability to cast more spells than the wizard, the spell point pools should be made large to compensate for the limit spell choice the sorcerer has.

Lantern Lodge

DarkOne the Drow wrote:
So to give the sorcerer back the ability to cast more spells than the wizard, the spell point pools should be made large to compensate for the limit spell choice the sorcerer has.

Yes, but the sorcerer shouldn't be limited to 4 spells. A wizard has many spells to choose from but has to select them ahead of time, a sorcerer gets her full selection all the time even though that full selection is smaller then the wizards.

AKA a wizard could have access to 36 spells but has to choose a small portion that is accessable in combat, a sorcerer might get 24 spells but can use any of them in combat.

That is what I want to see preserved, Shield a spell I use at the beginning of every combat but is useless later on, shouldn't be a full quarter of my selection. Even at level one I have at least six spells, I might not get the same selection size as the PnP, but limiting a sorcerer to 4 spells is pretty much gimping them to near worthless without heavy investment as primarily something else.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkOne the Drow wrote:
So to give the sorcerer back the ability to cast more spells than the wizard, the spell point pools should be made large to compensate for the limit spell choice the sorcerer has.

Absolute numbers don't matter, as they can always add decimal places as needed. Since this isn't a tabletop game, the maths don't have to be kept so simple.

Again I'd like to point out that a system which adds mana points based on stats and casting levels is stuck between either tracking them separately for each class (which the tabletop game effectively does) or adding them together for all classes (which DDO does). Separate tracking works with slots, but on a game UI it would get cluttered and messy. Adding them produces weird things like paladins taking one level of sorcerer just for the mana boost.

What you can do instead is make the mana pool a constant. The number doesn't matter as they can always add decimal places, and the way you differentiate between classes is to give each a varying cost.

Say the pool is 100 mana. A wizard might spend 30 of it to cast web while a sorcerer with the same spell spends 20% less: 24 mana. A wizard specializing in conjuration might spend 15% less: 25.5

As your casting stat and skill increase, so does your mana-expenditure discount, so you get more casts relative to that specific casting skill without giving you a huge number of castings if you switched over to a different casting class, and there's no need for separate mana bars if you have casting items for more than one spellcasting class equipped (multiclassing).

Lantern Lodge

Personally DDO was fine except they had a boost at first level of a casting class, they should of gotten that boost only once, like with hp only getting the bonus 20 at first level not the first level of every class.

I think the mana pool should be based on stats so you can improve stats to improve your pool.

Goblin Squad Member

Sorcerers are kind of hard to do under the proposed advancement system. I think the best way to do it would be to allow a Sorcerer to equip a Bloodline and the sorcerer has full access to all of the spells in that bloodline. Further training in that bloodline should give the Sorcerer access to more spells and abilities that come with the Bloodline.

It loses the sorcerer's freedom to choose what spells you would get that is present in the PnP, but I don't think we were ever going to get that in order to keep the Sorcerer experience consistent and balanced between characters. On the plus side my suggestion could have a sorcerer picking up and possibly equipping multiple bloodlines, which sounds pretty cool to me.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

What about a faster/shorter refresh time for sorcerer spells?

Also, if slots 7-10 are for refresh abilities, that could mean slots 1-6 will be for weapons and bloodline/domain/school powers.

Lantern Lodge

1-6 are weapons only, bloodline/domain/school powers are abilities, they go to the refresh slots, with the exception of those abilities that require a weapon or holy symbol.

@ Hark
I hope they don't do anything like that. Sorcerers get mana from their blood, but they still have to learn spells just like everyone else. That is extremely important to me when playing as a sorcerer.

The lack of spell preperation makes wizards a little bit more viable for me, but I really want to have those extra spells per day, and I've always been willing to limit my known spells to do it, your idea near completely invalidates anything I would ever want from a sorcerer.

Lantern Lodge

OmniChaos wrote:

@DLH

Does your system take into account the increasing expertise of the spellcaster. I mean at early levels it would work fine but at higher levels the spellcaster just has to narrow his focus with less regard to complexity in order to abuse the system. If you draw from a mana pool then you wont have a limited amount of spells, for example Dimension Door only has a V component and 1 standard action to cast. Sense your a high level spellcaster you can take the hit to remove the V component, speed up the casting, and lower the mana cost by adding complexity. Now you have a very abuseable spell to escape, position, bypass, or travel a rather large distance. Not to mention zero arcane failure chance so go plate while your at it.

While I like the idea I would be very detailed in its execution to avoid unbalancing the game. Everyone will be able to use magic in PFO with a little training. I would suggest you make it so that only those that focus in it can use its greater abilities. Dont need the dabbler going toe to toe with the spellcaster because they min/maxed the spell.

Would also want to know if and/or how other skills will interact with spells. Would a good bluff or slight of hand allow you to hide your V and S components in plain sight. Normally that kinda stuff falls to the bard, but then again this is not a regular class system. Just some things to consider.

It wouldn't be that easy, you can not just trade off between mana and complexity, each of the individual elements has a cost that effects both, converting to SL is probably best in the PFO or PF/DnD type games, in RnR however you roll when casting every spell, which gives complexity more importance. I have been thinking about where this will be used.

Also the effects are tagged with a strength, so get a Dimension door would be a high strength effect, if it's too easy to min/max, then you can always adjust the level of that effect to become higher strength or such.

That's the nice thing about effects, they can be individually tailored for balance.

Also because each element has a cost in both M and C, it would be very difficult to min/max a spell, even lowering those two very low requires extending casting time and expensive materials. The materials can always be adjusted by the devs if needed, as well as the effect costs, and casting time gives you more oppurtunity to inflict damage and possibly interrupt the spell.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:

Personally DDO was fine except they had a boost at first level of a casting class, they should of gotten that boost only once, like with hp only getting the bonus 20 at first level not the first level of every class.

I think the mana pool should be based on stats so you can improve stats to improve your pool.

You're not getting what I'm saying.

DDO was only an example.
Additive mana pools create an issue with multi-classing; a problem which will be far, far worse in a system that has no hard 'level cap'.
The problem is resolved by getting discounts to casting costs rather than increasing the pool.

The number of mana doesn't actually matter, since decimal places are available as needed, but 100 directly fits with a percentage system, so we'll go with that.

If a starting wizard has a magic missile that costs 10% of their mana, they can cast 10 of them before needing to rest.
If a capstoned wizard only needs to spend 0.1% of their mana to cast a magic missile, then they can cast 1000 of them before needing to rest.
If that wizard were to begin training as a cleric, it would take 10% of their mana to cast cure light wounds.

If you had simply added the 'cleric mana' to the 'wizard mana', that starting cleric would be casting 1000+ CLW spells.

Making the mana cost a percentage allows that character to switch or mix the two while keeping the mana pools effectively separate.

Health should work the same way.

Lantern Lodge

Keovar wrote:
DarkLightHitomi wrote:

Personally DDO was fine except they had a boost at first level of a casting class, they should of gotten that boost only once, like with hp only getting the bonus 20 at first level not the first level of every class.

I think the mana pool should be based on stats so you can improve stats to improve your pool.

You're not getting what I'm saying.

DDO was only an example.
Additive mana pools create an issue with multi-classing; a problem which will be far, far worse in a system that has no hard 'level cap'.
The problem is resolved by getting discounts to casting costs rather than increasing the pool.

The number of mana doesn't actually matter, since decimal places are available as needed, but 100 directly fits with a percentage system, so we'll go with that.

If a starting wizard has a magic missile that costs 10% of their mana, they can cast 10 of them before needing to rest.
If a capstoned wizard only needs to spend 0.1% of their mana to cast a magic missile, then they can cast 1000 of them before needing to rest.
If that wizard were to begin training as a cleric, it would take 10% of their mana to cast cure light wounds.

If you had simply added the 'cleric mana' to the 'wizard mana', that starting cleric would be casting 1000+ CLW spells.

Making the mana cost a percentage allows that character to switch or mix the two while keeping the mana pools effectively separate.

Health should work the same way.

I see, it is a nice solution, not the only one. But with PFO, the point is moot, the mana pool will not be attached to any kind of class, therefore any class will be useing effectivily "3rd party" resources.

Personally, I like the ability to train one's mana endurance, or they can train technique for effieciency, or they can train both. It also doesn't seem right to me that two individuals have exactly the same amount of mana without regard to what ever aspect of themselves powers their mana.

----

Of course a high level wizard just starting to learn cleric casting should cast for more Cure lights then a novice cleric without wizard levels.

The wizard has built up endurance with their mana, as well as achieved high control and efficiency, and thus some of that experience, and all of that endurance would carry over to the cleric side of things, so the wizard cleric has a better time with it because of being able to build on that experience that a first time caster wouldn't have.

Goblin Squad Member

Any benefit you can represent by simplistically stacking on more mana can also be represented by greater efficiency (cost discounts). The actual numerals are irrelevant, it is their relative values that determine what you can do. In the Dragonballz cartoon and card game they talk about power levels in the thousands and millions, but that's because it's made for kids who are impressed by big numbers.

Mana-stacking opens up the potential for loopholes that are hard to close after the fact, while it would be easier to label certain mana-efficiency skills as only applying to some types of spells but not to others.

How would you represent the bonus conjuration spells a conjurer gets? In a mana-stacking system, you would have to give a separate pool only useful for conjuration (messy on the screen) or bonus mana only usable for conjuration (prone to misunderstanding and 'bug' reports). If you make conjuration spells a bit cheaper, everything looks right to the player and gives the benefit only where it is due. That's a type of mana-efficiency system.

Goblin Squad Member

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An athlete in training increments ability in ever diminishing returns. Sprinters at world-class performance levels vary by hundredths of seconds. Similarly it seems reasonable that high level casters should see diminishing returns on their mana usage. Charted it should look like an hyberbolic curve.

Simple stacking is unreasonable.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:

I hope they don't do anything like that. Sorcerers get mana from their blood, but they still have to learn spells just like everyone else. That is extremely important to me when playing as a sorcerer.

The lack of spell preperation makes wizards a little bit more viable for me, but I really want to have those extra spells per day, and I've always been willing to limit my known spells to do it, your idea near completely invalidates anything I would ever want from a sorcerer.

Trying to differentiate to much in the resource pools that a character uses in a game with free form advancement like PFO would cause some serious balance issues. The only way I see doing it well is as that single class bonus for having only skills form a single class equipped. In that case the sorcerer bonus could be extra mana while a wizard could have a spell power boost. If you don't do it that way sorcerer becomes a must have skill set for anyone that is doing a mutli-class spell caster as e mana bonus would be to attractive to pass up.

Goblin Squad Member

i fully support the idea of crafting custom spells.

Goblin Squad Member

Hark wrote:
If you don't do it that way sorcerer becomes a must have skill set for anyone that is doing a mutli-class spell caster as e mana bonus would be to attractive to pass up.

That's why you don't stack on mana from various classes, you train in ways to use mana more efficiently.

If mana is simply stacked on, then all of it applies to every type of spellcasting, but with gains in mana efficiency, some stats and skills only apply to the efficiency of sorcery, some to wizardry, some to clerical theurgy, etc. Other skills may apply to the efficiency of all arcane or divine magic, and maybe one affects the mana costs of all spellcasting in general.

Lantern Lodge

I wasn't exaclty trying to fight against your idea, simply pointing out a few things. When it comes to mana, there are two things to consider, the pool size, and efficiency. The pool size can be determined by stats in a similar fashion to HP, then efficiency can be determined by spellcasting skills.

However, the efficiency skill in spellcasting should be seperate from each class set, so a novice cleric with archmage skills, is very good at being efficeint with her mana already, and can thus cast more then a novice cleric with no prior spellcasting experience.

Of course, you can complicate this a little bit by having a general efficiency and a class efficiency, thus a wizard20/cleric1 still finds it easier to cast more cures then a cleric1, but casting first level cleric spells still cost more then wizard first level spells.

Having the pool size based on stats means not everyone starts out exactly alike, but also has the choice between that stat and the one for HP or similar. Also could give bonus to sorcerers by way of needing to pick a bloodline at character creation, which would grant a bonus to pool size, this would be balanced by having "bloodlines" for other things that other classes might want, such as a barbarian bloodline with extra HP.

If you don't pick a sorcerer bloodline at the beginning, then you get the Arcane bloodline when you start taking the sorcerer class and thus don't get the pool size bonus (because they chose a different bonus). People will not always want the sorcerer bloodline at character creation unless they plan on heavily going caster. You can include other inherited things at character creation as well.

Lantern Lodge

Hark wrote:
DarkLightHitomi wrote:

I hope they don't do anything like that. Sorcerers get mana from their blood, but they still have to learn spells just like everyone else. That is extremely important to me when playing as a sorcerer.

The lack of spell preperation makes wizards a little bit more viable for me, but I really want to have those extra spells per day, and I've always been willing to limit my known spells to do it, your idea near completely invalidates anything I would ever want from a sorcerer.

Trying to differentiate to much in the resource pools that a character uses in a game with free form advancement like PFO would cause some serious balance issues. The only way I see doing it well is as that single class bonus for having only skills form a single class equipped. In that case the sorcerer bonus could be extra mana while a wizard could have a spell power boost. If you don't do it that way sorcerer becomes a must have skill set for anyone that is doing a mutli-class spell caster as e mana bonus would be to attractive to pass up.

Simple, provide alternate bonuses to pick from for different playstyles, and/or don't have the mana pool come entirely from class. I did the both option above.

Way I see it,
Everyone picks something special about their character at creation, for some this would be a specific bloodline.

Mana pool size comes from stats.
How many spells can be cast comes from the efficiency of using that mana (see naruto on this, good picture and everything. It's before shiippuden but I don't remember what episode.)
Experience in casting spells improves efficiency.
Endurance training improves mana endurance.

Two options here, either the pool size can be increased with practice (realism here), or you can have a general efficiency and class efficiency that together determine the cost of the spell. Former is easier and more "realistic." (Because athletes might have to learn new techniques in each field, but the stamina and endurance gained in one carries over to all the others)

Goblin Squad Member

What is the advantage to increasing the pool as opposed to increased efficiency? Everything an increased pool can do, increased efficiency can also do, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

If your HP pool goes up, you can take more hits before falling, and if you resist a certain amount of damage from each hit, it takes more hits to fell you.

Keeping HP constant and increasing toughness through resistances lets us give someone a differing resistance rating for each damage type, while simply stacking on more HP effectively makes you more resistant to all damage types. If you want a universal resistance, just include a Resist: All among the skills.

You could take mana expenditure as 'damage' to your mana pool in the same way.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm inclined to think that a static set of resource pool is a good way to go. Everyone always has something like 100 HP 100 Stamina and 100 Mana. Rather than gaining more of them you simply gain abilities to change the rates at which they are lost.

Liberty's Edge

Hark wrote:
I'm inclined to think that a static set of resource pool is a good way to go. Everyone always has something like 100 HP 100 Stamina and 100 Mana. Rather than gaining more of them you simply gain abilities to change the rates at which they are lost.

I agree, this is probably the best way to go about it.

Goblin Squad Member

The way it normally works is you need both efficiency and increased mana pool. This allows you to cast more and cast powerful, lacking in one or the other means you reduce the ability to cast many spells or reduced in the power of the spells you cast. High level spells take alot of mana and reducing that cost allows you to cast these high level spells more often. Otherwise a handful of spells will wipe you out.

In PF you make up for this by using items or pumping your spellcasting stat to get some extra spells. I doubt that will remain true for PFO, so you need to expand your pool and expertise to be able to cast with the best of them. Focused spellcasters unlike non spellcaster types have no "free" attack ability. Once a spellcaster is out of mana they are done, non spellcasters will always have the ability to swing a sword or fire an arrow without using up their stamina or what not.

Seeing as their are cap abilities for focused class types, that would make going purely spellcaster a huge pain compared with other non spellcasting classes.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

OmniChaos wrote:
Focused spellcasters unlike non spellcaster types have no "free" attack ability. Once a spellcaster is out of mana they are done, non spellcasters will always have the ability to swing a sword or fire an arrow without using up their stamina or what not.

I don't think that this assumption is valid. There's no reason why a spellcaster couldn't have something which is equivalent to the 'free' attack that weapon users can do; alternately, there's no reason why weapon users must have an ability that doesn't have a stamina (or equivalent) cost.

Goblin Squad Member

@Omni:

You seem to have misunderstood the stamina mechanic as described in the dev blog. You get stamina points every 6 seconds, and those are the currency for your actions.

This is the relevant post: Stamina & Refresh

So, everyone uses up their stamina. TANSTAAFL.

You may also be forgetting about cantrips/orisons. In the PFRPG, those can be used indefinitely, and indeed, with ray of frost being a touch attack, it can often be a more effective ranged weapon than carrying a crossbow. We don't yet know if something like cantrips will be in PFO, but I doubt GW wants to recreate the '15 minute adventuring day' scenario. Unlimited minor magic of a weak effect at least gives the mage something to do while waiting for the perfect opportunity to cast something more significant, and it cuts down on the tendency to load up on blast spells, blow through them in two encounters, and then start b!tching about needing to rest.

As to advocating mana-stacking because of high-level spells... by the time you progress your skills enough to cast them, you would have built up a better mana-efficiency rating. More powerful spells will be a significant drain, but by that point, the lower-powered stuff has become less and less significant. You will have also built up skills that help you refresh more quickly and safely.

These things may be completely different from the tabletop game from a mechanical perspective, while still emulating it from a story perspective if you look past the mechanics. A tabletop game needs more simple mechanics in order to play relatively quickly, while a computer can do all kinds of complex calculations for us and thus handle greater detail. A tabletop game can fast-forward past boring maintenance (you certainly don't spend time describing hours of dreams and snoring every time your character sleeps) and it slows down to Matrix-like 'arrow time' in combat, but an MMO is played in a consistent real-time. A different media substrate requires different mechanical considerations.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:

I wasn't exaclty trying to fight against your idea, simply pointing out a few things. When it comes to mana, there are two things to consider, the pool size, and efficiency. The pool size can be determined by stats in a similar fashion to HP, then efficiency can be determined by spellcasting skills.

However, the efficiency skill in spellcasting should be seperate from each class set, so a novice cleric with archmage skills, is very good at being efficeint with her mana already, and can thus cast more then a novice cleric with no prior spellcasting experience.

Of course, you can complicate this a little bit by having a general efficiency and a class efficiency, thus a wizard20/cleric1 still finds it easier to cast more cures then a cleric1, but casting first level cleric spells still cost more then wizard first level spells.

Having the pool size based on stats means not everyone starts out exactly alike, but also has the choice between that stat and the one for HP or similar. Also could give bonus to sorcerers by way of needing to pick a bloodline at character creation, which would grant a bonus to pool size, this would be balanced by having "bloodlines" for other things that other classes might want, such as a barbarian bloodline with extra HP.

If you don't pick a sorcerer bloodline at the beginning, then you get the Arcane bloodline when you start taking the sorcerer class and thus don't get the pool size bonus (because they chose a different bonus). People will not always want the sorcerer bloodline at character creation unless they plan on heavily going caster. You can include other inherited things at character creation as well.

I definitely like these ideas, gives characters more variation than all being of the same skill and efficiency when their primary stats are different.

Lantern Lodge

Keovar wrote:

What is the advantage to increasing the pool as opposed to increased efficiency? Everything an increased pool can do, increased efficiency can also do, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

Variation and versatility.

Having the two aspects not only allows individuals to very those resources with selecting/upping different stats, but also gives multiple different costs.

In your example, a wizard reduces spell cost by 50%, that would apply to all spells. Thus a two wizards with same spellcraft skill, but one is more combat oriented then the other and the stats demonstrates this, thus the warrior wizard despite being same level should have a lower number of spells to cast, yet the bonus mana from a magic item would still give the same number of extra spells, as it would grant the dedicated wizard.

Making it all just one method, either yours or DDOs, splits in half the versatility available, which in turn reduces the choices available, which makes everyones build more similar.

This way, a sorcerer can have more spells available to them without being better trained at spellcasting, which makes the spellcasting training simpler.

So, versatility and variation.

Also, because it is far more plausable. (Used to say realistic even though I knew that wasn't quite right, but today I realized that "plausable" fits perfectly for most of the times people say "realistic" in relation to RPGs)

It is more plausable that different wizards have different amounts of power available to them, that some have to train harder (increasing their effiency) to keep up with others. This mimics reality even though it's applied to a non-real capability, that makes it more plausable, it follows the pattern of how people think about the world around them.

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