Mythic Adventures - Update 12 / 21 / 12


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

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Ravingdork wrote:
So how does that effect using Hero Points to get an extra action to cast a spell?

At the risk of being told I am wrong by Jason Buhlman I'll go ahead and say that my interpretation of that is that the normal situation is one spell per round because the normal situation is one standard action per round. I would expect that if there were an actual hard limit of one spell per round that would be spelled out in the rules somewhere in its own right rather than obliquely referred to as a "normal" limit in the swift action rules, since such a rule would be a major part of combat mechanics. There are a number of other ab-normal ways to get an extra standard action - bard spells, hero points, heroic fortune spells, to name the ones that come up off the top of my head.

Totally fine with not allowing spells with the amazing init extra standard though. The possibility that this is the way it will be in the final is already making me like that particular change a lot more.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
1. Gaining Tiers: We have removed lesser trials from the rules at this time, shifting them instead to a system of GM-focused guidelines for rewarding mythic characters during play. They are no longer part of the advancement system for mythic characters. Now, when a character performs a suitably mythic act (subject to GM discretion), he is rewarded with one use of mythic power.

Excellent change. Trials in our experience were just tedious to keep track of.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
2. Base Mythic Abilities: The following changes have been made to a number of mythic base abilities. The levels at which you gain these abilities has not been changed. The surge ability is gained at 1st level, along with mythic power.

Lets see.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier. This power is used by a number of different abilities gained by mythic characters.

No longer basing it off ability scores is excellent. Basing it off such a low number and only one aspect of the character equation (tier instead of tier + level) is bad. Forget Tier x2 or 3 + tier.

Make it 3 + level + tier or 3 + 1/2 level + tier.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Surge (Su): You can call upon your mythic power to overcome difficult challenges. You can expend one daily use of mythic power to increase any d20 roll you just made by rolling 1d6 and adding it to the results. Using this ability is an immediate action that is taken after the original roll is made and the results are revealed. This can change the outcome of the roll. The bonus gained by using this ability increases by one die size at 4th tier and every 3 tiers thereafter to a maximum bonus of 1d12.

This ability still needs to be a non-action. Having it as an immediate just makes it something that screws over people with various feat chains or playing various classes (inquisitor in particular).

Make it a non-action.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to take an additional standard action during your turn. You cannot use this ability more than once per round.

With your stated views on 1 spell per round you have made this ability remarkably skewed towards martial characters. I don't like that. Can we find a middle ground here that doesn't result in spellcasters getting slaughtered?

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Mythic Saves (Ex): At 5th tier, whenever you succeed at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you suffer no effect as long as that ability did not come from a mythic source, such as a mythic creature or character. If you fail such a saving throw, you take the full effects as normal. If the spell comes from a mythic source, you treat the results of any saving throw required by the spell or special ability as normal.

Bad change in the wrong direction. This ability needs to help characters survive spells and effects from beings of CR > Level. Right now it does not do so. Evasion simply makes this a zero sum that means characters with good saves will take no damage and those who don't have good saves in a particular category still get slaughtered.

I continue to advocate a "roll twice" vs. non-mythic foes option. Maybe combined with the above. Right now this ability is broken in the 'nonfunctional' rather than overpowered way.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Unstoppable (Ex): At 8th tier, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to immediately end any one of the following conditions that is affecting you: bleed, blind, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, staggered, or stunned. All other conditions and effects remain, even those caused by the same spell or effect that caused the selected condition. Using this ability can be done at the start of your turn even if a condition would prevent you from acting.

No strong feelings on this one, other than the fact that I note mind control remains very powerful and unaffected.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
3. The Mythic Flaw ability has been moved to the GM section of the book. GM's now have a choice as to whether or not mythic characters in there game have a flaw. Such a flaw is decided by the GM, using the existing flaws as guidance.

Excellent change.


Peter Stewart wrote:
With your stated views on 1 spell per round you have made this ability remarkably skewed towards martial characters. I don't like that. Can we find a middle ground here that doesn't result in spellcasters getting slaughtered?
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
If you want two spells, both the archmage and heirophant have an ability that allows them to get another spell cast in the round.

Jason, are you referring to the path abilities such as Arcane Surge, Wild Arcana, Inspired Spell, and Recalled Blessing? Each of those path abilities allows the character to cast a spell by expending a use of mythic power, but the playtest PDF doesn't list what action is associated with them.

If these aren't the abilities we're looking for, then are they perhaps in your working draft and not the playtest PDF?


Laithoron wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
With your stated views on 1 spell per round you have made this ability remarkably skewed towards martial characters. I don't like that. Can we find a middle ground here that doesn't result in spellcasters getting slaughtered?
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
If you want two spells, both the archmage and heirophant have an ability that allows them to get another spell cast in the round.

Jason, are you referring to the path abilities such as Arcane Surge, Wild Arcana, Inspired Spell, and Recalled Blessing? Each of those path abilities allows the character to cast a spell by expending a use of mythic power, but the playtest PDF doesn't list what action is associated with them.

If these aren't the abilities we're looking for, then are they perhaps in your working draft and not the playtest PDF?

I think he is saying that now there's a new archmage and hierophant power that would deal with this problem. Want 2 spells per round? Take the new power.

Humbly,
Yawar


Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. The way the abilities I mentioned are worded, my natural conclusion would be that they pertain to the action needed to cast a spell via the normal means rather than allowing an extra spell to be cast. Still, they are the only Archmage/Hierophant abilities I could find in the PDF that might be construed as allowing an extra spell to be cast via mythic power.

If there are new abilities that allow this then that's cool, but without being able to reference them, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to arrive at Peter's conclusion. It was my initial assessment as well up until seeing Jason's comment.

I know from world-building that what I sometimes take for granted isn't obvious to others simply because I'm looking at a different draft or haven't committed to writing something I thought was obvious. My guess is that may be the case here too.


Peter Stewart wrote:


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier. This power is used by a number of different abilities gained by mythic characters.

No longer basing it off ability scores is excellent. Basing it off such a low number and only one aspect of the character equation (tier instead of tier + level) is bad. Forget Tier x2 or 3 + tier.

Make it 3 + level + tier or 3 + 1/2 level + tier.

How does the first make any sense whatsoever?

If basing it off your ability score bonus, aka modifier is bad, then basing it over level is worse.

If I am 8th level, with a starting 18 in my main stat, that gives me +4. To reach +8, I would need a 26 in my main stat. Getting a +6 item costs 36k, 3k more than an 8th level character should have. That gets me a 24, so at least I'm close. Mythic ability score increases could help, unless I am too low a tier. Of course, I am still short 3k to even get the +6 item, though +2 from leveling can offset some.

However, let's jump to 12th level. I would need a 34 in my main score to get a +12. 18+6+3=27, I'm short 7. I would need to be at least tier 6 to be even close. Which I suppose is possible, but isn't definite.

Regarding Mythic Initiative, what about it being x2 your mythic tier? Getting just a +1 to Initiative just isn't that exciting and not even close to Mythic feeling. Even traits often give +2.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I am getting over a rather nasty chest cold.

I've got your cold too! You infected me over the internet! HOW!

Also, re: mythic flaws... do you (or any other posters) have any ideas for a system that might offer some sort of incentive for taking one? IE; more mythic uses, an extra mythic feat, something along those lines?

The situation is that the character has been in play for a while with the flaw, is reasonably happy with it and enjoys the flavor it adds, but now that it's optional, is wondering if a benny is possible.


Bob Dobbs 875 wrote:
Also, re: mythic flaws... do you (or any other posters) have any ideas for a system that might offer some sort of incentive for taking one? ... if a benny is possible.

You know, I had just finished writing the ascension scene for my game, when I saw your post. It gave me an idea...

In the original playtest rules, each character selected an ability score to which their power was keyed. What about granting each character the universal path ability tied to that previously-selected ability score? After all, when a GM uses the optional Flaw rules, the pay-off is to gain a feat in return.

Being as weaknesses are now strictly the purview of the GM and therefore an optional rule, I don't think it would be so unreasonable thing to do.


I'm actually happy to see big changes from the first version -- this is an entirely new system of rules and so this willingness to discard ideas (and its corollary: the willingness to try bold new ideas) is only apropos for a genuine playtest.

I admire the developers' ability to deal with lots of unhappy campers while still taking-in all the feedback.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Monkeygod wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier. This power is used by a number of different abilities gained by mythic characters.

No longer basing it off ability scores is excellent. Basing it off such a low number and only one aspect of the character equation (tier instead of tier + level) is bad. Forget Tier x2 or 3 + tier.

Make it 3 + level + tier or 3 + 1/2 level + tier.

How does the first make any sense whatsoever?

If basing it off your ability score bonus, aka modifier is bad, then basing it over level is worse.

If I am 8th level, with a starting 18 in my main stat, that gives me +4. To reach +8, I would need a 26 in my main stat. Getting a +6 item costs 36k, 3k more than an 8th level character should have. That gets me a 24, so at least I'm close. Mythic ability score increases could help, unless I am too low a tier. Of course, I am still short 3k to even get the +6 item, though +2 from leveling can offset some.

However, let's jump to 12th level. I would need a 34 in my main score to get a +12. 18+6+3=27, I'm short 7. I would need to be at least tier 6 to be even close. Which I suppose is possible, but isn't definite.

Regarding Mythic Initiative, what about it being x2 your mythic tier? Getting just a +1 to Initiative just isn't that exciting and not even close to Mythic feeling. Even traits often give +2.

The problem with doing it by ability modifier is not that it goes too high, it's that it favours SAD character like full casters over MAD casters like front line combatants.


Monkeygod wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Make it 3 + level + tier or 3 + 1/2 level + tier.
How does the first make any sense whatsoever?

It make sense because it allows mythic to actually have an impact, especially in high level but low mythic games. As others have noted (notably Tertiary here - who is Vael from Dicefreaks) cutting it down to 3 + tier or 3 + 2x tier reduces this rule set to a minor sub-note on character sheets that adds complications in the form of options but no power because they are usable so rarely. That is not a plus.

Basing it off of only one half of the level/tier equation is a poor idea, because it does not cater well to all games (as I noted).

Monkeygod wrote:
If basing it off your ability score bonus, aka modifier is bad, then basing it over level is worse.

No it isn't, for what I had believed were obvious reasons. Apparently you've completely misunderstood my issue (and I believe the issue of the vast majority of players) with basing mythic uses per day off of ability scores.

Monkeygod wrote:

If I am 8th level, with a starting 18 in my main stat, that gives me +4. To reach +8, I would need a 26 in my main stat. Getting a +6 item costs 36k, 3k more than an 8th level character should have. That gets me a 24, so at least I'm close. Mythic ability score increases could help, unless I am too low a tier. Of course, I am still short 3k to even get the +6 item, though +2 from leveling can offset some.

However, let's jump to 12th level. I would need a 34 in my main score to get a +12. 18+6+3=27, I'm short 7. I would need to be at least tier 6 to be even close. Which I suppose is possible, but isn't definite.

This entire subset of math is completely irrelevant, because the issue with basing mythic uses off ability scores never had anything to do with too many uses: it had to do with disproportionate uses. I'm actually of the opinion that more uses are good, because it keeps the rule set relevant. Adding 10 tiers of new abilities you can only use a very limited number of times per day, that are intended to make you the equivalent of a higher level character, seems like a terrible idea for this rule set.

It encourages excessive conservation of resources, the 5 minute adventuring day, and all kinds of (generally) boring and discouraged ways of play (this is not to say playing this way, if a given group enjoys it, is bad fun). It also sets groups up for disaster if they lack sufficient mythic points for a given fight, because at higher tiers of mythic right now the only way parties can compete at all with enemies of the appropriate CR is through spamming mythic points.

Consider a level 14 / mythic 7 party, that is supposed to be capable of fighting CR 21 enemies. Consider that the frontliner attack bonuses without spending mythic points are likely 7-12 points behind where they should be. Spellcasters are facing SRs that are 18 points higher than their caster level. Skill based characters are 10-15 points behind where they should be. Overall the party is entirely incapable of combating such foes without expending a great many mythic points to do basic things such penetrate SR or beat armor class. They likely cannot make saves against the DCs of such foes without expending mythic points. Their defenses are woefully behind. The entire system - especially now that such a party has 10 mythic points each for an entire day - starts to break down.


Monkeygod wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:


Forget Tier x2 or 3 + tier.

Make it 3 + level + tier or 3 + 1/2 level + tier.

How does the first make any sense whatsoever?

~Stuff~

It makes sense because when the DM chooses challenges for the PCs, she looks at level and mythic tier, not some ability score. It makes sense because PCs tend to compare themselves to each other based on level, not on ability score.

A few uses of mythic might swing things really big for a 1-2nd level adventure. A single mythic point could well be the difference between a halfling getting his head kicked in like a pumpkin right in front of his girlfriend, and that same halfling being saved by his girlfriend who chose to swing on the zombie rather than heal him.

In a similarly mythic but higher level adventure, say 11-12th level, a few points of mythic aren't going to seriously impact the results when you've got tons of swift action spells, immediate action combat style feats and other such stuff flying around.

However, the addition of mythic assumes that both of those situations are increased by the same amount as an equal number of levels. Adding a few extra 1d6s might compare to having a second level spell, but it hardly compares to gaining access to 7th level magic, or a third iterative attack, or a critical feat that auto staggers foes.

That's why it makes sense. You don't measure one potential set of rules against another potential set of rules, you measure it against the game.


I would agree with Peter's suggestion, as well. Or even tier x 2. Judging by how fast I went through eight Mythic Points, four won't really be enough to affect anything in a noticeable way, especially at high-level-low-mythic.

And Monkeygod may no longer be evil, but I see his search for the truth is as futile as ever.

Liberty's Edge

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Peter Stewart wrote:

It make sense because it allows mythic to actually have an impact, especially in high level but low mythic games. As others have noted (notably Tertiary here - who is Vael from Dicefreaks) cutting it down to 3 + tier or 3 + 2x tier reduces this rule set to a minor sub-note on character sheets that adds complications in the form of options but no power because they are usable so rarely. That is not a plus.

Basing it off of only one half of the level/tier equation is a poor idea, because it does not cater well to all games (as I noted).

Like the McDLTs of yore I prefer to keep my mythic side mythic and the level side uh...level-y. Conflating them makes mythic more like an epic system which is not the design intent.

I'm not seeing the reason why a level 20 should have vastly more mythic points than a level 1 with just one mythic tier. Whether you are level 1 or 20 Pathfinder is balanced around 4 encounters before resting. Why should a level 20 wizard/archmage get to cast an extra 3+20+1 spells during those four fights when the level 1 only gets 3+1+1? The power of the spells scale as you level so I don't see the need to give higher level characters an even greater advantage.


While the hit to mythic power is probably needed (a couple of my players had mythic power scores around 24), I hope you are also going to reduce the cost of mythic spells at the same time. My sorcerer player routinely burns 4 mythic points a round (1 for metamastery, 3 for greater mythic spells). Dropping from 24 to 9 is going to be a serious hit for him.

Also, losing dual focus means he may not be able to take another mythic feat at his next tier. It was one of the few feats he qualified for and he was already almost out of feats he can take. He's going to have to replace dual focus with mythic paragon, as that's the only other one he qualifies for, with the exception of dual path, and that's one that is not really apropriate for him. Some of the other players are also going to have to get the dual focus replaced.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:
I'm not seeing the reason why a level 20 should have vastly more mythic points than a level 1 with just one mythic tier.

Then go back and read my post, as I explain this.


Well, this has turned into a wall of text. My apologies.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
1. Gaining Tiers: We have removed lesser trials from the rules at this time, shifting them instead to a system of GM-focused guidelines for rewarding mythic characters during play. They are no longer part of the advancement system for mythic characters.

Happy with this. The lesser trials seemed... kinda wonky, in my opinion. I probably would have been happy if they were simply modified a bit, but seeing them removed is okay too.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your mythic tier. This power is used by a number of different abilities gained by mythic characters.

I am sad to see that a character's stats no longer have impact on the amount of mythic power, but I am happy to see that it no longer suggests that everything be piled into a single stat, as well. I do think 3 + Tier is rather limiting though. I'd say the proposed 3 + Tierx2 would do pretty well however.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to take an additional standard action during your turn. You cannot use this ability more than once per round.

Very happy with the initiative bonus being reduced to just the character's mythic tier. That +20 was weird, in my opinion.

However, I do find the clarification of no casting a second spell in a given round to be... curious. It sort of feels like an arbitrary restriction, without a flavor reason behind it. If one can be cast via a standard action, and the character has a standard action, I find it odd to impose a limit on them. I understand that this is to keep the divide between martials and casters from getting too wide, but as is, that just seems like a poor way to do it, and otherwise makes amazing initiative a lot less appealing for casters, in my opinion.

To try to be a little more constructive though, rather than just criticizing, a possibility I might consider is if the ability were to give both an extra standard action along with an extra move action.

That would run pretty similarly to how it used to be in that it kind of gives an entire extra turn, but now it is taken all at once. For a melee character, this can give lots of mobility to make use of, while still letting them get their full attacks. Likewise, if a melee or ranged person is already in position to full attack, they can basically just do it twice. (Though I admit, this is bringing up weird combinations of multiple standards/moves turning into multiple full rounds and whether or not that should work might be kind of hazy. I picture full round actions as being one standard and move action exchanged for one full round. Maybe that's not an accurate view though.)

In short though, I'd think this would basically work the same for anyone. Whatever a person would have done with a normal turn, they can now do twice over. In that way, it essentially gives the same benefits to anyone, whether they be a martial or caster.

Just a possibility to consider. I realize it's pretty similar to how Amazing Initiative used to run anyway though, so if it just goes back to whatever required the change in the first place, my bad. I kind of liked how Amazing Initiative originally ran though, aside from the +20 Initiative modifier that was always on.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
3. The Mythic Flaw ability has been moved to the GM section of the book. GM's now have a choice as to whether or not mythic characters in there game have a flaw. Such a flaw is decided by the GM, using the existing flaws as guidance.

Sounds good to me. Some of the flaws seemed a bit strange. I like them as an optional rule, though I feel the player does deserve some say in choosing their character's flaw, unless it's campaign specific. In that regard though, it's really just something for players/GM's to work out, so I think it sounds fine as simply being available at the GM's discretion.

Overall though, I think these changes are quite good, and it's nice to see that player feedback is indeed being considered.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
We here on the design team hope you have a happy holidays.

Likewise :P

Liberty's Edge

Kain Darkwind wrote:
The_Hanged_Man wrote:
I'm not seeing the reason why a level 20 should have vastly more mythic points than a level 1 with just one mythic tier.
Then go back and read my post, as I explain this.

Rather unconvincingly.

Let's go back to my wizard example. What does a wizard get from going from level 19 to 20? One 8th and one 9th levels spell slot, a feat, and an increment to CL, Will, and BAB.

What does 1 mythic tier of archmage get you instead of that level? As things currently stand now, the equivalent of four ninth level spells slots, a mythic feat, and a path ability.

Sure some tweaking can be done but that sounds roughly equal to me. Suggesting that character should get 20+ (or 10+ even) extra castings for what is supposed to be the equivalent of one level is far too much.

Remember, mythic is not epic. One mythic tier shouldn't make a massive difference at higher levels. It should be roughly the same as gaining one level which at the higher levels only makes a marginal difference. For example, going from level 1 to 3 significantly improves a character. They roughly double their hit points and spell slots, and gain most of their core class abilities. Going from level 17 to 19 or 18 to 20 provides a much more marginal improvement. Pathfinder already struggles with balance issues at the higher levels. Conflating the mythic and level systems would cause it to collapse under its own weight.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
The_Hanged_Man wrote:
I'm not seeing the reason why a level 20 should have vastly more mythic points than a level 1 with just one mythic tier.
Then go back and read my post, as I explain this.

Rather unconvincingly.

Let's go back to my wizard example. What does a wizard get from going from level 19 to 20? One 8th and one 9th levels spell slot, a feat, and an increment to CL, Will, and BAB.

Plus a minor thing called a capstone that you forgot ;). A diviner for example now gets to treat every initiative roll as a 20, or a conjurer gets a permanent SMIX (hi there boatloads of at will SLAs), or an abjurer gets immunity to an energy type.

Wizard capstones may be more or less powerful depending on school/subschool, but a lot of them are quite a boost.

Other things he gets beside what you listed include an increased Intelligence and a greater increase in hit points.

And that's just wizards. Speaking as a fighter, if someone offered me a trade between Fort saves, hit points, BAB (which increases all of the following: my DCs, my to hit, and my Power Attack benefits), a feat, a point of Strength, and 15-20x3!, automatically confirmed! crits - on the one side - and four measly mythic points on the other...

Liberty's Edge

Coriat wrote:
The_Hanged_Man wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
The_Hanged_Man wrote:
I'm not seeing the reason why a level 20 should have vastly more mythic points than a level 1 with just one mythic tier.
Then go back and read my post, as I explain this.

Rather unconvincingly.

Let's go back to my wizard example. What does a wizard get from going from level 19 to 20? One 8th and one 9th levels spell slot, a feat, and an increment to CL, Will, and BAB.

Plus a minor thing called a capstone that you forgot ;). A diviner for example now gets to treat every initiative roll as a 20, or a conjurer gets a permanent SMIX (hi there boatloads of at will SLAs), or an abjurer gets immunity to an energy type.

Wizard capstones are hardly the best class capstones, probably because they are so powerful already. I'm really looking forward to autoconfirming crits, damage reduction, and a x3 crit multiplier, as a fighter player. But they can still be quite powerful, depending on the school/subschool.

Sure, capstones are great but that doesn't change my point that one level doesn't radically change your character at higher levels. Some capstones seem pretty similar to path abilities or mythic feats when you think about it too. I get the feeling that some want to go to straight to demigod with just one tier and I feel differently.


I think I caught you with a ninja edit (adding a few more things that come with 20th level) in the middle of your posting HM.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a greater starting level of mythic power for lower level characters as well. The point that lower level characters are expected to meet four encounters per day as well is well taken. But I think the current formula provides inadequate mythic power for lower tier/higher level play. Understanding of course that this is not the expected norm...

Liberty's Edge

Coriat wrote:

I think I caught you with a ninja edit (adding a few more things that come with 20th level) in the middle of your posting HM.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a greater starting level of mythic power. The point that lower level characters are expected to meet four encounters per day as well is well taken. But I think the current formula provides inadequate mythic power for lower tier/higher level play. Understanding of course that this is not the expected norm...

I hear what you are saying though. I think the mythic rules were designed to 2:1 level to tier ratio in mind and the farther you get you away from that the wonkier things get. I think the intent is that tiers aren't supposed to be an epic system where you only start getting them at max level. A level 20 with 10 tiers should have plenty of points to play with especially if you go with the 3+2*tier formula.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The_Hanged_Man wrote:
Coriat wrote:

I think I caught you with a ninja edit (adding a few more things that come with 20th level) in the middle of your posting HM.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a greater starting level of mythic power. The point that lower level characters are expected to meet four encounters per day as well is well taken. But I think the current formula provides inadequate mythic power for lower tier/higher level play. Understanding of course that this is not the expected norm...

I hear what you are saying though. I think the mythic rules were designed to 2:1 level to tier ratio in mind and the farther you get you away from that the wonkier things get. I think the intent is that tiers aren't supposed to be an epic system where you only start getting them at max level. A level 20 with 10 tiers should have plenty of points to play with especially if you go with the 3+2*tier formula.

Not designed that way but seemingly going to be used that way in official Pathfinder materials. Most of the Mythic characters in Golarion are currently level 20 wizards, witch, or alchemists (1 noted exception - Jakalyn at Cleric 9/Red Mantis Assassin 10 with a touch of mythic). Yet I can't imagine Elvanna and Baba Yaga both being 20 Witch/10 Archmage or Alaznist, Sorshen, and Xanderghul all being 20 Wizard/10 Archmage.

That being said. I do agree that mythic points should not include character levels in its equation.


Explain to me how a Wizard14/Mythic3 - with 6 uses of mythic a day - is in any way on par with a Wizard17. Please. What abilities exist that if used 6 times in 4 encounters make someone with 7th level spells the equal of one with 9th level spells, higher caster level, far more spells per day, more wealth, better spell DCs, vastly more wealth, and so forth.

Make it 20 (3 + 3 + 14) uses and maybe you can make the argument that the Wizard14 has more staying power, has little tricks up his sleeve, flexibility, and so forth. Maybe.

And this is not some hypothetical drawn up out of the blue to be favorable to my argument. This is what my PC will be facing in the coming sessions.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Explain to me how a Wizard14/Mythic3 - with 6 uses of mythic a day - is in any way on par with a Wizard17. Please. What abilities exist that if used 6 times in 4 encounters make someone with 7th level spells the equal of one with 9th level spells, higher caster level, far more spells per day, more wealth, better spell DCs, vastly more wealth, and so forth.

While I too think that the amount of mythic power needs to be buffed; An Archmage with 3 Tiers is really powerful and as far as my own play experiences have shown, it counts for real levels within 3 CR(after that your saves, wealth, and BAB fall really lag behind).

First you have your mythic spells, which at this level you'll have 1(or more if you blew mythic feats); but lets say you got Mythic Fireball. I'll spare you the math, but you average an extra 25 damage than the level 17 wizard will. That's before going with the Greater Fireball where your damage will double his. Not to mention by this level you'll begin to get meta-mastery and apply metamagic feats to your spells for free if you choose to, ignore component costs, or even cast any spell off your spell list if you chose Wild Arcana. Finally, your spells have higher DCs(see the opening of the magic chapeter) and you can't be counterspelled if you expend mythic power.

You can take the level 17 Wizard.

Liberty's Edge

Peter Stewart wrote:

Explain to me how a Wizard14/Mythic3 - with 6 uses of mythic a day - is in any way on par with a Wizard17. Please. What abilities exist that if used 6 times in 4 encounters make someone with 7th level spells the equal of one with 9th level spells, higher caster level, far more spells per day, more wealth, better spell DCs, vastly more wealth, and so forth.

Make it 20 (3 + 3 + 14) uses and maybe you can make the argument that the Wizard14 has more staying power, has little tricks up his sleeve, flexibility, and so forth. Maybe.

And this is not some hypothetical drawn up out of the blue to be favorable to my argument. This is what my PC will be facing in the coming sessions.

You are cherry picking just when PCs get 9th level spells (Bump the level on both wizards up or down one and it would be a closer comparison) but it still would be closer than you think. I've already said I agree with 3+2*tier so that would be 9 mythic power not 6. I agree that 6 is too low.

The wealth problem is easily solved. Just give mythic Wizard the wealth of a 17th level character. Problem solved. Since tiers are supposed to be equivalent to levels I don't see any reason not to since WBL is always a GM call anyway.

The higher DCs are partially mitigated by the +2 boost to intelligence vs. the non-mythic's +1 at 16. With Arcane surge the spells would require two saves (and be better at piercing SR) which more than closes the gap in terms of DCs.

Admittedly the selection of mythic feats, spells, and abilities is a bit paltry right now, but those could make a big difference as well once there is a proper selection. So I am not saying the balance is spot on right now but I don't think the solution is to link levels to mythic abilities.


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The_Hanged_Man wrote:
You are cherry picking just when PCs get 9th level spells (Bump the level on both wizards up or down one and it would be a closer comparison) but it still would be closer than you think. I've already said I agree with 3+2*tier so that would be 9 mythic power not 6. I agree that 6 is too low.

No, I'm not. I'm postulating the problem I face right now as a PC. I'll link you the sheet if you'd like.

The_Hanged_Man wrote:
The wealth problem is easily solved. Just give mythic Wizard the wealth of a 17th level character. Problem solved. Since tiers are supposed to be equivalent to levels I don't see any reason not to since WBL is always a GM call anyway.

Which JB has openly said is not the intent. And this is not a small change in wealth - 17th is double 14th level wealth.

The_Hanged_Man wrote:
The higher DCs are partially mitigated by the +2 boost to intelligence vs. the non-mythic's +1 at 16. With Arcane surge the spells would require two saves (and be better at piercing SR) which more than closes the gap in terms of DCs.

Cool, you took arcane surge. Which means your caster level is 3 points behind where it should be and you can recast your 3 prepared 7 level spells.

The_Hanged_Man wrote:
Admittedly the selection of mythic feats, spells, and abilities is a bit paltry right now, but those could make a big difference as well once there is a proper selection. So I am not saying the balance is spot on right now but I don't think the solution is to link levels to mythic abilities.

Your whole 2 feats, 3 abilities, and 1-2 spells? Convince me. Show me where you are making up the difference of 2-4 points in saves, attack bonus, caster level, armor class, two levels of spells, at least 7 spells 7th level or higher, and so forth.

Right now the only way I see making up that difference encounter in and encounter out is by being able to actually use what you've gained from your mythic tiers regularly.

Silver Crusade

I think that Casters should get a +1 caser level for each tier that they gain and that Martial type should gain +1 BAB for each tier and skill types should get extra skill ranks for each tier and possibly an universial mythic feat as skills dont quite measure up to a +1 cster level and a +1 BAB. Some of the changes made to the myhic rules seem to take a Nerf bat to some of the things tat made myhic rules well mythic. I understand why the changes were made as some of Mythic abilities like amazing iniative were cumbersoe in use.

I think the change in the mythic power rule needs to be scraped not enough myhic power is avaible for casters change it to eithr 3 + 2x mythic tier or 3+ mythic tier + characer level.

jusst my 2 cents Jason is doing a great job with the mythic rules.

Liberty's Edge

Peter Stewart wrote:

Which JB has openly said is not the intent. And this is not a small change in wealth - 17th is double 14th level wealth.

Interesting. Can you give me a link? Fixing the wealth would solve most of the gap you are talking about.

Edit:
Actually nevermind I found it.

Click me

Yeah, I thought it made no sense for such a big gap in wealth.


I haven't been paying enough attention to the forums it seems, considering that I missed this. Thanks for the update Jason, I think these are some pretty good changes and with any luck my group will be able to do a playtest using these soon :D


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I should note that we are very seriously considering changing the uses of mythic power to 3 + twice your mythic tier. The current formula is a little limiting.

Jason

I'd be concerned about that. I plan to use the mythic rules at low levels, and let's say I'm soing a "mythic Kingmaker" campaign. Well, in low fight-per-day environments, basically everyone would get extra standard actions every round of every fight, given that calculation.

I know everyone's always in favor of "more powerz!" but if I'm like level6/tier 2 mythic and I get 7 (or more, with some of these proposals) uses a round that's pretty hardcore.

At any rate, I think any proposal to tie the Mythic rules to character level is bad and one of the most elegant parts of the rules is that they don't do that.

Dark Archive

I like Laithoron's idea of making the formula 3 + ability score mod + tier. It just makes sense, as that's what a lot of existing classes use for their uses/day for their special abilities.


Ernest Mueller wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I should note that we are very seriously considering changing the uses of mythic power to 3 + twice your mythic tier. The current formula is a little limiting.

Jason

I'd be concerned about that. I plan to use the mythic rules at low levels, and let's say I'm soing a "mythic Kingmaker" campaign. Well, in low fight-per-day environments, basically everyone would get extra standard actions every round of every fight, given that calculation.

And if you're our group (tier 1, level 14), the IC day previous to the one we're on now we had - assuming I didn't forget any - 18 separate combat encounters and three or four semi-combat (trap) encounters. You had 1/4 the normal expected combat encounters, we had 5x as many. I would think that one shouldn't really design a system around either out-of-norm experience, that's the DM's job to adjust for. In terms of mitigating for fewer encounters I might suggest simply not telling your players that this will be the only combat encounter of the day. We also had only two combat encounters and one trap encounter today so far (almost midnight now), but we're going to bed with a lot left in the tank because yesterday left us all scarred and paranoid ;)


Jason Beardsley wrote:
I like Laithoron's idea of making the formula 3 + ability score mod + tier. It just makes sense, as that's what a lot of existing classes use for their uses/day for their special abilities.

Right, except the problems inherent with tying mythic to ability mod have been beaten to death. Right here in this very forum on a number of threads (including MAD vs. SAD).

It does not matter that many classes use a similar formula within the class. That is not applicable here, because we are not talking about applying such a rule to a single class. We are discussing a mythic ruleset that is universal for every class, and one in which gimping classes that do not promote a single high ability score is patently unfair to the players of those classes.

You cannot give out universal abilities and then give one class many more uses because of a secondary number.


Peter: The now-obsolete Dual Focus feat actually pushed MAD characters ahead of SAD with my group — took care of that quite nicely actually. Also, the benefit of using ability score mod is that it helps to front-load characters and continues to grow in a way that the player has control over. Granted, I think the mythic rules tend to assume a high point-buy so I can see results varying depending upon how generous the GM is.

For groups that are a bit higher level when they first become mythic, (the group I run with Jason in it is 8th level gestalt, 1st mythic tier), 3+mod+tier grants quite a respectable pool of mythic power to work with. Most of our characters have 9 or 10 uses per day with the lowest being 8 and the highest being 11. On the flip-side 3+2×tier would have only granted them 5/character. 3+level+tier would have been more points, sure, but I'd rather not conflate a character's mythic power with their level — a sentiment voiced by quite a few people in here and other threads.

At any rate, we had a group vote and it was a unanimous decision to try 3+mod+tier over the method JB laid out in the update. I'd promise to let you know how it works out, but PbPs being what they are, I fully expect there to be another update before we have enough feedback to offer. ;)

The Exchange

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Actually the rules are assumed with 15 pt buy Laithoron. Secondly, Peter's argument is going to be "the MAD classes now have to spend a feat to play catch-up to the SAD classes instead of spending a feat on something awesome like Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Paragon" or some such... I agree with that sentiment personally.


The APs and Module lines might assume 15 or 20, but those are also assuming 'normal Joes' as characters. Clearly, 'mythic' characters are not your average run of the mill adventurers. Part of the appeal of a mythic campaign is in playing super badasses who tower head and shoulders above normal mortals. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that a group attracted to such a game would amp things up in other areas as well.

For example, the minute a GM mentions the word 'gestalt', it's pretty much a given that you'll be having a high point-buy for reasons of MAD. I'd look at a GM like they had two heads if the were planning to run either a gestalt OR mythic campaign with such a low point-buy.

In the case of dual focus, I don't think there was anyone in my group who saw getting an extra 4 or 5 uses of mythic power a day (when it was still mod+tier) as a sub-optimal choice. Most of the players were like, "Whoa, that guy is going to be a superhero!"

Naturally, if the group is only using enough point-buy to max one score then I can see the cause for concern. With my group however, it was a non-issue because it was already a high-powered campaign and 'mythic' was a natural fit.

Dark Archive

Peter Stewart wrote:

It does not matter that many classes use a similar formula within the class. That is not applicable here, because we are not talking about applying such a rule to a single class. We are discussing a mythic ruleset that is universal for every class, and one in which gimping classes that do not promote a single high ability score is patently unfair to the players of those classes.

You cannot give out universal abilities and then give one class many more uses because of a secondary number.

I think it does matter. If it's a formula that people are familiar with, one that they already know, then why come up with a whole new formula at all? Especially since it seems to be working out just fine as it is.

How much more universal do you want it to be than "choose one ability score"?


Still thinkering about the "only one spells per turn except for the quickened ones", it means that you cannot cast a standard action spell if you already casted a naturally swift but not quickened spell like Cold Ice Strike or the likes.
This rule continues to make even less sense every time i think about the implications.


xevious573 wrote:
Actually the rules are assumed with 15 pt buy Laithoron. Secondly, Peter's argument is going to be "the MAD classes now have to spend a feat to play catch-up to the SAD classes instead of spending a feat on something awesome like Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Paragon" or some such... I agree with that sentiment personally.

Thanks for defending me in absentee.

Laithoron wrote:

Peter: The now-obsolete Dual Focus feat actually pushed MAD characters ahead of SAD with my group — took care of that quite nicely actually. Also, the benefit of using ability score mod is that it helps to front-load characters and continues to grow in a way that the player has control over. Granted, I think the mythic rules tend to assume a high point-buy so I can see results varying depending upon how generous the GM is.

For groups that are a bit higher level when they first become mythic, (the group I run with Jason in it is 8th level gestalt, 1st mythic tier), 3+mod+tier grants quite a respectable pool of mythic power to work with. Most of our characters have 9 or 10 uses per day with the lowest being 8 and the highest being 11. On the flip-side 3+2×tier would have only granted them 5/character. 3+level+tier would have been more points, sure, but I'd rather not conflate a character's mythic power with their level — a sentiment voiced by quite a few people in here and other threads.

At any rate, we had a group vote and it was a unanimous decision to try 3+mod+tier over the method JB laid out in the update. I'd promise to let you know how it works out, but PbPs being what they are, I fully expect there to be another update before we have enough feedback to offer. ;)

And in my group Dual Focus pushed the wizard in the party to 13 uses a day while at tier 1. That isn't going to be an uncommon thing if you use ability scores to generate mythic power. Crappily enough wizards and other SAD spellcasers are often able to afford another high score (especially Con), and can even get both scores higher than any score for a MAD character.

We're level 14 / Mythic 1 btw.

Jason Beardsley wrote:

I think it does matter. If it's a formula that people are familiar with, one that they already know, then why come up with a whole new formula at all? Especially since it seems to be working out just fine as it is.

Because it isn't working fine? Because it has the potential to generate tremendous inequity in the effects of mythic on various PCs. One assumption built into this rule set (for now) is that each tier is the equivalent of a level. If it is not giving everyone at least somewhat equal benefits then it isn't doing what it is supposed to.

Look, I'm not a balance Nazi. I don't insist that everyone has to have equal options all the time regardless of race, class, and build. What I will insist on however is that core functions of the system start everyone on even footing. What you and others who advocate for ability score based abilities are suggesting is the equivalent of some classes only receiving a feat every three levels instead of every odd level, or receiving ability increases every 5 levels instead of 4. It is a baseline imbalance for no good reason.

Something like mythic power uses, which is intrinsic to the function of every other mythic ability, should not be variable without good reason.

Laithoron wrote:

The APs and Module lines might assume 15 or 20, but those are also assuming 'normal Joes' as characters. Clearly, 'mythic' characters are not your average run of the mill adventurers. Part of the appeal of a mythic campaign is in playing super badasses who tower head and shoulders above normal mortals. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that a group attracted to such a game would amp things up in other areas as well.

For example, the minute a GM mentions the word 'gestalt', it's pretty much a given that you'll be having a high point-buy for reasons of MAD. I'd look at a GM like they had two heads if the were planning to run either a gestalt OR mythic campaign with such a low point-buy.

In the case of dual focus, I don't think there was anyone in my group who saw getting an extra 4 or 5 uses of mythic power a day (when it was still mod+tier) as a sub-optimal choice. Most of the players were like, "Whoa, that guy is going to be a superhero!"

Naturally, if the group is only using enough point-buy to max one score then I can see the cause for concern. With my group however, it was a non-issue because it was already a high-powered campaign and 'mythic' was a natural fit.

Right, and in my group my character's lowest ability score is a 15 (would be 16 if I had not declined a free increase). I have four scores of 20 or better (without magic items). I'm familiar with both low and extremely high ability score games. The thing is, that is not what is being designed for here. Mythic rules should be applicable to the broadest possible number of tables, and they need to be workable with 15PB, since a forthcoming AP (which assumes 15PB) will integrate mythic rules into it.


Ok we doing a mad game to test all systems at once, Hero Points next,but now its

GM less L20+HOPF+Mythic mad game

With 20th Level+HOPF+Mythic + lots of stat adds, you get
T4 4+16Wis+12Int= 32 mythic power/day
yep we are that nuts.

But going to add in the rules changes but need to ask what you think of this, change

Dual Focus (Mythic)
You draw your mythic power from two ability scores.
Prerequisite: 1st mythic tier Benefit: Select one ability score other than the score you selected at your moment of ascension (see page 3). You can use your mythic power an additional number of times per day equal to your bonus from that ability score.

to Add 3 more Mythic Power uses per day.

This may all ready been offered up, if so please call me a spud and ignore :)


As previous posters have shown the gap for caster level, attack bonus, saves, etc. at higher Mythic levels when compared to the equivalent regular character. The Mythic character actually needs to use their mythic abilities more often to compensate. Thus they will need more Mythic points not less. Mythic points should be calculated as

3+Tier+Ability bonus. If not it should remain Tier+Ability bonus.


No. Keep the ability bonus out of it. That was the entire issue with the first draft of the ability, that it completely favored SAD, that it encourages placing all +10 epic ability scores into the same score, that it isn't balanced against players that don't focus 100% of their resources into a single stat, etc.

The old method was Tier + ability score. The current method is 3 + tier. 3 + tier + ability score is just a combination of those two.

Making it level based is ideal. Encounters and adventure days tend to be longer in higher levels. Having more mythic power to spend in those higher levels makes sense.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I think tier + 1/2 character level would be about right, and avoid the SAD issues.


JoelF847 wrote:
I think tier + 1/2 character level would be about right, and avoid the SAD issues.

I agree that this seems like it would be a good middle ground, as long as it is desirable that a 'max level' at level 20 + tier 10 would have at least 23 mythic points per day. That seems like an awful lot, but then again maybe you will need to be using at least one point a round in combat at that level.

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Removed a post and reply. Personal insults are not OK.

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Matrix Dragon wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I think tier + 1/2 character level would be about right, and avoid the SAD issues.
I agree that this seems like it would be a good middle ground, as long as it is desirable that a 'max level' at level 20 + tier 10 would have at least 23 mythic points per day. That seems like an awful lot, but then again maybe you will need to be using at least one point a round in combat at that level.

I'm still leaning towards 3+2xtier. At 20L/10T that still gets you the 23 points. Plus, a 2L/1T would start with 5 points which is reasonable. Many are considering cases where you only get your first tier at high levels (making it something of an epic system). Not saying it shouldn't be used that way but I don't think it should be balanced around that necessarily instead of the 2:1 ratio.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

The_Hanged_Man wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I think tier + 1/2 character level would be about right, and avoid the SAD issues.
I agree that this seems like it would be a good middle ground, as long as it is desirable that a 'max level' at level 20 + tier 10 would have at least 23 mythic points per day. That seems like an awful lot, but then again maybe you will need to be using at least one point a round in combat at that level.

I'm still leaning towards 3+2xtier. At 20L/10T that still gets you the 23 points. Plus, a 2L/1T would start with 5 points which is reasonable. Many are considering cases where you only get your first tier at high levels (making it something of an epic system). Not saying it shouldn't be used that way but I don't think it should be balanced around that necessarily instead of the 2:1 ratio.

Agreed. The system is not meant to be solely used for epic level play and a system that distributes the points more evenly throughout the Mythic progression regardless of the levels you progress your mythic tiers at would be more suitable for a wider audience. 3 + 2x tier should be about right.

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