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Yeah but bears don't sing songs, make weapons and clothes either. People might gleefully smite them in game but the goblins are walking, talking sapient creatures. You're comparing raising wild -animal- predators to a cognizant person.
It still boils down to, A) if the GM Thinks goblins are all evil BECAUSE they're goblins. (( I.E. ALL Goblins are evil. No matter what))
Or B) if Goblins are, like humans, some good, some bad, some in between, depending 1) on the goblin in question and 2) How the goblin is raised. (( this would mean that all the evil goblins we run into are products of their society. not inherently evil. )
Sure, even if it's Option "B" Some are going to be evil. Just like some humans are evil. But the question you asked Pendgast, was what if it was a NEUTRAL Evil goblin. This indicates that it might be able to achieve an alignment upgrade, if trained.
You're right in that you can't just demand an alignment. That's where the 'TEACHING IT TO BE GOOD' comes in. Sure, some might tell you to frak off, but some might not.
goblins aren't "like humans" (ie some good , some bad) as they are 'generally' neutral evil, where as human societies are generally neutral. Elves generally chaotic good etc etc.
So PCs aside (because they can choose whatever path) what effect would nature/nurture have?
IF nature is the starting alignment (NE for this goblin) then how much effect does nurture have?
Maybe there should be a DC for it, what would be the effecting skill? Diplomacy? Profession:Nanny? maybe it could work like diplomacy and depending on how successful one was at raising children, with a skill check hampered by a racial modifier (raising goblin children cant be what you were TRAINED to do so there would be negatives...)
But you could then roll over the course of upbringing said infant, with certain successes determining what qualities you wanted to instill in said youth possibly with a modifier of your own alignment.
for example, a neutral good bard isnt going to turn a neutral evil goblin into a lawful good goblin by raising it, nor is it going to turn it into a lawful evil one.
So maybe the effect needs to depend on the alignment of the mentor for some DC modifiers as well?
So a Lawful Good Human would have the best chance of training a lawful good goblin.
But a Chaotic Neutral character couldn't train a lawfully infant, unless it's natural state was lawful, like dwarves for example?
Thoughts?
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Again as Pepsi Jedi has said, that all depends on whether or not the GM involved is playing with inborn or learned alignments.
And looking at the actual elven NPCs and the details on Kyonin that have shown up in Golarion kind of puts the lie to the "generally CG" claim.
In my world I have elves as generally neutral antagonists... never actually 'good guys'. Of course non comformists exist.
I think of them as non aggressive romulans.
Whole college degrees could be earned from the topics on these threads. Someone should look into that.
10 year old human equivalency ... so, you're in for a RUDE series of surprises in about another 3 or 4 months!
goblins aren't "like humans" (ie some good , some bad) as they are 'generally' neutral evil, where as human societies are generally neutral. Elves generally chaotic good etc etc.
But that's your perception of them. Again it's not addressed and I point you to above. It depends on how your game master preceives them. You seem to think that goblins are evil because they're goblins and they're all evil.
It's kinda funny because if you took out 'goblin' and put in something else, your statement could fit in to pre civil war America.
Are you racist against our green brothers!?!?!?!?!? lol
So PCs aside (because they can choose whatever path) what effect would nature/nurture have?IF nature is the starting alignment (NE for this goblin) then how much effect does nurture have?
And again. that's the question. if your GM says nurture has a place, then it's all open. if he, like your first statement, thinks goblins aren't like humans and are just evil from birth, there's not alot of point to trying and raise a goblin. (( Unless you're evil too))
Maybe there should be a DC for it, what would be the effecting skill? Diplomacy? Profession:Nanny? maybe it could work like diplomacy and depending on how successful one was at raising children, with a skill check hampered by a racial modifier (raising goblin children cant be what you were TRAINED to do so there would be negatives...)
Naa. I think this sort of thing should be role played out. Noone's throwing dice to raise kids. lol
But you could then roll over the course of upbringing said infant, with certain successes determining what qualities you wanted to instill in said youth possibly with a modifier of your own alignment.
That seems more like brain washing. (( Not that raising kids is all that DIFFERENT from it. But.. yeah.))
for example, a neutral good bard isnt going to turn a neutral evil goblin into a lawful good goblin by raising it, nor is it going to turn it into a lawful evil one.So maybe the effect needs to depend on the alignment of the mentor for some DC modifiers as well?
So a Lawful Good Human would have the best chance of training a lawful good goblin.
But a Chaotic Neutral character couldn't train a lawfully infant, unless it's natural state was lawful, like dwarves for example?
Thoughts?
I get what you're saying but I think you're overthinking it just a tad. I agree they'd be with in a step of your 'guiding/teaching' alignment. Buut the steps do go different ways.
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Sounds to me that baby goblins are mentally equivalent to (and generally treated like) animals.
You said you have the Animal Companion class ability right?
See if you can convince your GM to let you treat the goblin baby as your animal companion. Teach it "tricks", housebreak it, and make a baby harness for it.
Then later, when it outgrows it's "animal" stage, you'll probably be able to pick up leadership. Then you'll have a perfect reason to have a super awesome and loyal goblin cohort. Whatever class you want. Personally, I'd go with Alchemist. Nothing like having a backpack mounted mortar that can feed you cure potions and crank out tanglefoot bags during down time.
civilizations form for a reason. there is some natural tendencies that take generations to wash out. Then why does change happen? Simply put, wild cards.
Could a goblin nation become good or lawful on it's own? Sure. how would that happen?
1)Isolation from other goblins and change from within by some of those wild cards gaining power or influence
2) conflict from outside that possibly caused the deaths of many of the chaotic or evil influences from outside, leaving other members of society to take charge, but are aligned differently.
Barring one of those, if you are plucking from the standard pack. a goblin is innately neutral evil.
Can you make an Indian a Cowboy? Sure. they tried it. Didn't work (not well anyhow) in the first generation. Now a days, american indians dress more like cowboys than they do like tanto.
It's not a change that happens in something quickly.
To add to the issue, children are generally chaotic and heavily selfish by nature (lord of the flies is a perfect example) So a goblin child is going to be at least just as bad as a human child in that respect.
Factor in things like genetics (humans are omnivores as evidenced by their teeth, what do goblins eat again? look at their teeth! Ramen and tofu is going to be a rough diet to get it to accept)
Then you have to factor in the rejection issue. Teenagers generally do the exact opposite of what you want them to do.
My kids are a perfect example. They are as far from what they have been taught and shown, and how they have been treated as possible. They CHOOSE this. They have rejected their upbringing and good examples.
As a result one of them is a bully on the bus, and a nightmare for teachers and other authority figures, the other one is a compulsive liar and a thief.
The youngest one (the worst one) actually adversely effects the older one, by the mere fact of existing.
We have high hopes that once our oldest gets to middle school and spends more time away from her younger sister, that she might develop into a decent human.
the youngest however, as all the makings for a terrible human and someone who will never want as your neighbor, despite anything she has been taught, witnessed, or shown.
Neither kid has access to TV, Video games or the internet. So a great deal of what they are doing IS nature. A certain part of it is REINFORCED by poor role models at school... however both their behavior patterns were well evidenced before either one of them attended school.
Ok you're making ALOT of assumptions, stating them as fact and citing fiction as fact as part of your argument, then anecdotal experience as evidence of fact in other parts.
civilizations form for a reason. there is some natural tendencies that take generations to wash out. Then why does change happen? Simply put, wild cards.
Well 1) Civilizations take many many factors to form, you're sipping tons. and
2) Goblns HAVE a civilization. It's just different than what you and I would call 'normal'.
Could a goblin nation become good or lawful on it's own? Sure. how would that happen?1)Isolation from other goblins and change from within by some of those wild cards gaining power or influence
2) conflict from outside that possibly caused the deaths of many of the chaotic or evil influences from outside, leaving other members of society to take charge, but are aligned differently.
Barring one of those, if you are plucking from the standard pack. a goblin is innately neutral evil.
But you don't know that. That's up to the GM. It doesn't say they're INNATELY natural evil. It's the same thing you keep ignoring. We don't have evidence that gobins are INNATELY evil or situationally Evil.
If they're 'Born' evil or 'become' evil. There is a radical difference between the two. You're saying that they're Innately evil. I.E. born evil. But we've not proof of that. That's a GM call
Can you make an Indian a Cowboy? Sure. they tried it. Didn't work (not well anyhow) in the first generation. Now a days, american indians dress more like cowboys than they do like tanto.
For a moment, I'm just going to ignore the gross culturally insensitive nature here, and point out. It works just fine, if you take a human from one culture, into another culture as an infant, and they don't know the other culture.
As for 'modern day'. Well, we're all quite a bit different than our ancestors 200 years ago.
It's not a change that happens in something quickly.
You're mistaking a change of an entire PEOPLE/CULTURE, to the change of a single person.
If for example you take a baby, from a ultra ultra conserviative Southern Babtist family, and raise him in the middle east as a Muslim. He'll be just fine, as a Muslim. Or if you do the reverse. It's not like the baby will one day suddenly go 'This is just bullcrap!! This ain't how I roll yo!"
That's because humans aren't innately of one religion or another.
And this circles around to goblins. Are they BORN evil? or not? if not, and they're raised away from Evil. Why would they suddenly be evil (( unless it's just an evil dude?))
You can raise one.. two.. 10... 100 kids this way and it's no big deal, but changing an entire nation or people is vastly different.
To add to the issue, children are generally chaotic and heavily selfish by nature (lord of the flies is a perfect example)
LOL kids CAN be chaotic and selfish, Or they can be quiet and sweet. They're not all wild animals just because of a novel.
So a goblin child is going to be at least just as bad as a human child in that respect.
I'm a parent. I have two boys. our oldest boy is sweet and kind and gentle and quiet. he reads and knits and plays video games. Our younger kid is wild and a bit of a thug when he can get away with it. Much more aggressive and wild.
You cannot just assume that kids are all chaotic and selfish brats. Some are. many are. All are not.
Factor in things like genetics (humans are omnivores as evidenced by their teeth, what do goblins eat again? look at their teeth! Ramen and tofu is going to be a rough diet to get it to accept)
LOL wow. Well. By aspect of being omnivores, we ALSO eat meat. It doesn't make us evil. Just assuming that the goblins don't have molars in there (Even wolves and tigers have some) Being a carnivore doesn't make one evil. he can eat chicken or pig, or cow, or dwarf. You know. No big deal. :)
Then you have to factor in the rejection issue. Teenagers generally do the exact opposite of what you want them to do.
No. They really don't.
Do teenagers have rebellious tenancies? Yeah. Do all of them follow them? No! do they follow them EVERY TIME TO THE quote EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want them to do? No.Just sometimes. if you actually work it out, it's pretty infrequent. It just seems like more because it perterbs the parents.
I'm not saying some teens don't get a bit rebellious, some very much so but they're not 100% oppsiite every time of what ever they're told.
My kids are a perfect example. They are as far from what they have been taught and shown, and how they have been treated as possible.
Well. Not trying to be funny or accusitory or anything, but are you sure that's a fault in them, and not in their parents/teachers?
I'm not trying to call you out. Some parents just suck as parents. I'm not claiming to be the best. but I know many many that are MUCH worse than me, and it's easy to see why their kids are how they are. Is it possible, that your kids arn't like how you've taught them, because you are an ineffective parent? Again, not trying to call YOU out, this could be said for anyone. You just threw yourself and kids out as an example.
They CHOOSE this. They have rejected their upbringing and good examples.
or your training/teaching/examples arent as good as others?
As a result one of them is a bully on the bus, and a nightmare for teachers and other authority figures, the other one is a compulsive liar and a thief.
The youngest one (the worst one) actually adversely effects the older one, by the mere fact of existing.
We have high hopes that once our oldest gets to middle school and spends more time away from her younger sister, that she might develop into...
Well that's the thing, Even from your above statement. Neither of the kids was born evil. They're making their own choices.
Ok the post cut off at "She might develop into..." when I was quoting you, so I'm going to address the rest.
My kids are a perfect example. They are as far from what they have been taught and shown, and how they have been treated as possible. They CHOOSE this. They have rejected their upbringing and good examples.
As a result one of them is a bully on the bus, and a nightmare for teachers and other authority figures, the other one is a compulsive liar and a thief.
The youngest one (the worst one) actually adversely effects the older one, by the mere fact of existing.
We have high hopes that once our oldest gets to middle school and spends more time away from her younger sister, that she might develop into a decent human.
the youngest however, as all the makings for a terrible human and someone who will never want as your neighbor, despite anything she has been taught, witnessed, or shown.Neither kid has access to TV, Video games or the internet. So a great deal of what they are doing IS nature. A certain part of it is REINFORCED by poor role models at school... however both their behavior patterns were well evidenced before either one of them attended school.
Ok... again, you put yourself out as an example, so I'm replying to that, not 'you' just the example that's put out there. Thus this reply isn't pointing at "Pendagast' but a sterotypical person that made the statements that Pendagast did.
1) that a parent would say that about his own kid, makes me want to take a step back. That his youngest child is going to be a terrible human and someone who would never be wanted. ect.. .that triggers my knee jerk. "Get away from this guy" sort of response, else I might say mean things, and
2) You say neither has access to RV, Video games or the internet, and blame it on their innate nature.
Well... this comes right back around to.... point..... at their biggest role model there mate.... not their buddies at school. You pointed out their behavior patterns were well evidenced before they started school.....
*Clears throat*
In such an example, talking about 'stereotypical' people... that points --directly-- to the parents.
Your kids aren't just innately jerks or evil man. They learned it. You say before they went to school and you don't let them watch tv, play games or go on line.... all that points to the role model that they have.
Their parents.
Again this would be for any 'stereotypical' situation described thus.
Ok the post cut off at "She might develop into..." when I was quoting you, so I'm going to address the rest.
My kids are a perfect example. They are as far from what they have been taught and shown, and how they have been treated as possible. They CHOOSE this. They have rejected their upbringing and good examples.
As a result one of them is a bully on the bus, and a nightmare for teachers and other authority figures, the other one is a compulsive liar and a thief.
The youngest one (the worst one) actually adversely effects the older one, by the mere fact of existing.
We have high hopes that once our oldest gets to middle school and spends more time away from her younger sister, that she might develop into a decent human.
the youngest however, as all the makings for a terrible human and someone who will never want as your neighbor, despite anything she has been taught, witnessed, or shown.Neither kid has access to TV, Video games or the internet. So a great deal of what they are doing IS nature. A certain part of it is REINFORCED by poor role models at school... however both their behavior patterns were well evidenced before either one of them attended school.
Ok... again, you put yourself out as an example, so I'm replying to that, not 'you' just the example that's put out there. Thus this reply isn't pointing at "Pendagast' but a sterotypical person that made the statements that Pendagast did.
1) that a parent would say that about his own kid, makes me want to take a step back. That his youngest child is going to be a terrible human and someone who would never be wanted. ect.. .that triggers my knee jerk. "Get away from this guy" sort of response, else I might say mean things, and
2) You say neither has access to RV, Video games or the internet, and blame it on their innate nature.
Well... this comes right back around to.... point..... at their biggest role model there mate.... not their buddies at school. You pointed out their behavior patterns were...
Well mate, they don't act a thing like me. They are also NOT my biological children. so that goes back to nature/nurture. Are they behaving according to nature?
How many bullies and thieves look back at other bullies and thieves and say "oh my gosh, look at those horrible people!"
Consider the fact my youngest has spent more time with councilors, psychiatrists, special ed teachers and social workers than most developmentally disabled kids I have met. After exhaustive home studies, in school observations, and whatever jibber jabber they make up in the secret meetings with graphs and statistics, they have all come up with the same thing. something I have been saying for years, and this is, she chooses to act this way, and there is nothing we can do to change it. It's her choice. Yay! happy day!
All of them agree, they don't want her around as much as they can help it and they want to keep her as far away from 'normal' children as possible.
She's 10, I saw it in her when I met her, I said "that kid is going to be TROUBLE when she gets to school age, it's only going to get worse" and it has. I can't even predict what she's going to do when she hits high school, but it's going to be ugly.
So when you have the psychologists and other experts agreeing, 1) it's not me or the wife and 2) she's sheltered from most of the outside influences normally blamed for such things (like TV and video games) then... what's left? Nature?
Like I said some bad stuff comes home from school because kids feed off each other, and I have actually met kids that are way worse than mine. But the kid is not on track to being a decent person, and years and years of social workers haven't curbed or changed that, she's just the same person she has always been. Heck one summer the social worker spent more time with her than the rest of the family did combined.
Teaching and mentoring is not the 'be all, end all' of the outcome of a personality.
I know it makes people all warm and fuzzy inside when they feel they can blame a parent for the terrible things their kid did. But that's not how it actually works.
Do we blame Charles Manson on his parents? Timothy Mcviegh, who's fault is that? is it possible they can be responsible for their own choices? Perish the thought.
Edit: I almost forgot, both kids (but especially the youngest one) exhibit personality traits (or disorders) of their biological father and their biological maternal grandmother....two totally cracked people. My wife's mom and my wife's first husband are , well.... indescribable. Why neither one of them has spent any time in jail (that I know of) is beyond me. So do the kids behave like them because of nature (ie inherited) or because they have met/spent time with them? Kids havent seen their biological father since they were in diapers, and they haven't seen their biological grandmother , other than on an unsupervised visit for more than a few hours, in 3 years.... so can those two people really have a nurture effect on what they are doing now?
aha, thank you john.... as goblins ALWAYS have been, since the dawn of the game, which is WHY they are goblins.
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We have evidence they are innately evil. Its in Goblins of Golarion, a Paizo book. It states that goblins do have a innate disposition to evil.
Edit: If you actually read the goblin alignment paragraph, it states they are " greedy, capricious, and destructive by nature,". Even if you transplanted a goblin into a new environment, he would be more likely to commit evil than his human peers.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin
But you selectivly leave out things. Like, the rest of that quoted sentence says "most are neutral or chaotic evil" Not all.
Then the huge section at the bottom of the same page that reads
"Goblins don’t have to be evil maniacs—just because most of them are doesn’t mean your character is. In fact, playing a non-evil or even a good-aligned goblin can present some enjoyable and interesting roleplaying challenges. If you want to play a goblin because you’re eager to explore these challenges, or because you like playing strange characters against their stereotypes, or because you enjoy playing “monsters with hearts of gold,” then you’re on the right track for most campaigns.
In such a case, you should look at the majority of the flavor in this book in reverse—you can define your goblin character by playing a character with values opposite of many of the things most goblins define themselves. Perhaps your goblin is a patient scholar who specializes in languages and is attempting to catalog the “true” history of the goblin race in a series of books. Maybe you’re a cavalier who seeks to use dogs or horses as allies because you’re convinced that the goblin fear of these creatures is one of your kin’s greatest failings. Or maybe you were rescued as a child by a kindly adventurer who then turned your care over to a benevolent religion and you grew up with not only a deep respect for one of the gods of purity but a sense of shame that most of your kind worship barghests and demons.
None of this means you can’t still enjoy playing up some of the goblin race’s other quirks. Their ravenous hunger, their love of songs, their twisted senses of humor, and respect for nature are excellent traits that you can embrace as a goblin that don’t disrupt parties or derail adventures. You can still maintain these classic goblin personality traits without also being a distraction to the game itself."
And in part
"Of course, not all campaigns are set in areas where goblin intolerance is so swift or deadly. Some regions are well noted for being open-minded in accepting unusual visitors into their midst—the city of Katapesh is a great example of this, for as long as visitors to the city don’t disrupt trade, any manner of creature is welcomed within the city walls. When you speak with your GM about playing a goblin, talk with him about where the campaign is likely to take place—a campaign set in an area like Isger or Varisia, where goblins have a strong negative association, might not make a good opportunity to play a goblin at all.
Playing a goblin also provides a character with the opportunity to be creative in the strangely charming and cleverly insane manners common to the race. Players of goblin bards (or fighters, or any other class for that matter) should consider this encouragement to spend some time composing their own goblin songs."
This shows that they're not all evil, and there's actually quite a bit of canon stuff about how to have ones that aren't.
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I want to see stats for a swarm of baby goblins that have gotten out of the cages.
Well if you were chaotic evil you could just feed it to the wolves or throw it into the fire or whatever. The thing with goblin babies is they have to be returned to the goblins immediately. It will just distract you the whole time, and it will be an unnecessary weight on your PC's shoulders.
We have evidence they are innately evil. Its in Goblins of Golarion, a Paizo book. It states that goblins do have a innate disposition to evil.
Edit: If you actually read the goblin alignment paragraph, it states they are " greedy, capricious, and destructive by nature,". Even if you transplanted a goblin into a new environment, he would be more likely to commit evil than his human peers.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin
But you selectivly leave out things. Like, the rest of that quoted sentence says "most are neutral or chaotic evil" Not all.
Then the huge section at the bottom of the same page that reads
"Goblins don’t have to be evil maniacs—just because most of them are doesn’t mean your character is. In fact, playing a non-evil or even a good-aligned goblin can present some enjoyable and interesting roleplaying challenges. If you want to play a goblin because you’re eager to explore these challenges, or because you like playing strange characters against their stereotypes, or because you enjoy playing “monsters with hearts of gold,” then you’re on the right track for most campaigns.
In such a case, you should look at the majority of the flavor in this book in reverse—you can define your goblin character by playing a character with values opposite of many of the things most goblins define themselves. Perhaps your goblin is a patient scholar who specializes in languages and is attempting to catalog the “true” history of the goblin race in a series of books. Maybe you’re a cavalier who seeks to use dogs or horses as allies because you’re convinced that the goblin fear of these creatures is one of your kin’s greatest failings. Or maybe you were rescued as a child by a kindly adventurer who then turned your care over to a benevolent religion and you grew up with not only a deep respect for one of the gods of purity but a sense of shame that most of your kind worship barghests and demons.
None of this means you can’t still...
This is entire line of quotes is to justify PC goblins, NOT how a random selection of the species is going to act. Unless the GM has a reason for an NPC to be "abnormal" the standard alignments are there to dictate the 'norm'....
So again to the beginning, the goblin is going to START out with an initial Neutral evil alignment, if you do nothing and let it be, it will grow up to be a neutral evil goblin.
so how does one determine to what extent some mentoring will change that? AND how to determine how good a PC (or rather how successful) the PC would be at raising it to be something OTHER than a neutral evil goblin?
EDIT: there is also the matter of goblins being a rather common monster race, how might ti react when it sees other critters that look just like it?
Foster children IRL often have very irrational needs to locate parents who abandoned them, forsaking good decent people who took care of them, instead seeking out their natural parents, holding them to some high standard, even tho they can see they are a wastrel. Is this some kind of social paradigm? OR a natural need to be amoung 'your own'.
I'm sure if the goblin never saw another goblin, or a dwarf for that matter, a party of PCs could convince the goblin that it was a "dwarf".
What about going into 'civilization' with everyone screaming 'eek a goblin' run for the hills!?
bound to have a psychological effect on a developing mind, no?
Pendagast,as politely as possible, I disagree with your perceptions of children on a number of matters. Your perceptions of psychology are also far from my own. I've a degree in Psychology with a minor in abnormal behavior, I'm not just a guy on the street. :)
As you've used yourself as an example, I can't really go point by point with out grossly breaking the 'don't be a jerk' rule. As by tearing up your grossly inaccurate statements, it'd be a personal attack.
So I won't.
I'll just say your perceptions on children, child psychology and such are far astray from what is accepted in the field today. I also very very highly question some of the statements you've put forth concerning such. (Psychologists, and your children).
Anyway, strictly speaking of goblins. We have canon source that goblins can be good and heroic. We've even detailed description on how such can be played. This indicates Goblins aren't evil by NATURE as if they were, they couldn't be good and heroic. This indicates that it is, a nurture issue, and thusly, as per the OP, if a good guy acquires a goblin baby, he can raise it to be good, baring the gm deciding that, like any human, any goblin can simply be evil. Even if such is not an inborn trait. :)
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Alignments by Bestiary
Aasimar: NG
Catfolk: NG
Goblin: NE
Tengu: N
Tiefling: NE
Alignments by ARG
Aasimar: Aasimars are most often of good alignment, though this isn't necessarily universal, and aasimars that have turned their back on righteousness may fall into an unfathomable abyss of depravity.
Catfolk: With community and unselfish cooperation at the center of their culture, as well as a good-natured curiosity and willingness to adapt to the customs of many other races, most catfolk tend toward good alignments. The clear majority of catfolk are also chaotic, as wisdom is not their strongest virtue; nevertheless, there are exceptions with cause.
Goblin: Goblins are greedy, capricious, and destructive by nature, and thus most are neutral or chaotic evil.
Tengu: Tengus tend to be neutral, though those who allow their impulsiveness to get the better of them lean toward chaotic neutral.
Tiefling: Despite their fiendish heritage and the insidious influence of prejudice, tieflings can be of any alignment. Many of them fall prey to the dark desires that haunt their psyches, and give in to the seduction of the whispering evil within, yet others steadfastly reject their origins and actively fight against evil lures and the negative assumptions they face from others by performing acts of good. Most, however, strive to simply find their own way in the world, though they tend to adopt a very amoral, neutral view when they do.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a lot more to this alignment thing than that bestiary descriptor shows...
Raise it, have ti be a cohort (leadership) or the DM's "pc" (if they are so inclined). Teach it to be the Goblin King!
Alignments by Bestiary
Aasimar: NG
Catfolk: NG
Goblin: NE
Tengu: N
Tiefling: NEAlignments by ARG
Aasimar: Aasimars are most often of good alignment, though this isn't necessarily universal, and aasimars that have turned their back on righteousness may fall into an unfathomable abyss of depravity.Catfolk: With community and unselfish cooperation at the center of their culture, as well as a good-natured curiosity and willingness to adapt to the customs of many other races, most catfolk tend toward good alignments. The clear majority of catfolk are also chaotic, as wisdom is not their strongest virtue; nevertheless, there are exceptions with cause.
Goblin: Goblins are greedy, capricious, and destructive by nature, and thus most are neutral or chaotic evil.
Tengu: Tengus tend to be neutral, though those who allow their impulsiveness to get the better of them lean toward chaotic neutral.
Tiefling: Despite their fiendish heritage and the insidious influence of prejudice, tieflings can be of any alignment. Many of them fall prey to the dark desires that haunt their psyches, and give in to the seduction of the whispering evil within, yet others steadfastly reject their origins and actively fight against evil lures and the negative assumptions they face from others by performing acts of good. Most, however, strive to simply find their own way in the world, though they tend to adopt a very amoral, neutral view when they do.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a lot more to this alignment thing than that bestiary descriptor shows...
That's because we speak of Humanoid species (and two Native Outsiders) and not Extraplanar Outsider races like Celestials and Fiends.
That's because we speak of Humanoid species (and two Native Outsiders) and not Extraplanar Outsider races like Celestials and Fiends.
...I thought this thread was about goblins. Or is that a quip about the recent paladin debates?
Anyone else love it when a thread derails off topic?
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...I thought this thread was about goblins.
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Well, what we can say, is that Goblins eat, alot.
I mean, up to their body weight in a day. Their extremely high level of energy comes partially from their accelerated metabolism.
The males also seem to have a natural pull toward large, plump, and wide hipped females. This is likely due to their ability to survive childbirth. Goblins are quite good at breeding.
Goblin Society also seems to have a very poor view of animal domestication, as shown with their love of wild canines, but hatred of domesticated canines.
Now, as for their natural inclination towards evil, their might be some evidence to support that, if the myths of their origin are to be believed.
As the myth goes in Golarion lore, Lamashtu stole all of Asmodeus' pet Barghests, and proceeded to breed with them, thus creating Goblins.
Hobgoblins and Bugbears are thought to be evolutions of the Goblin race.
Most of the Goblin actions that define them as evil though, can be explained through their fears.
Goblins are, in many ways, defined by their fears - not just of dogs and horses but of humans as well, and even their religion is based on fear of their gods. They fear the written word, as they believe it steals thoughts from their heads.
Fear, along with an insatiable hunger, maddening curiosity, and unrelenting desire to breed, are the core for most of the Goblin's "evil acts".
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As fascinating as the 'nature vs nurture' debate is (and it is!), the in-game 'reality' of it is as unknown to any PC as the 'true' answer is to anyone IRL!
This may be a fun role-playing experience, and if the OP takes it that way, and the DM takes it that way, then it will be!
This is the way forward!
Well you cant simply demand an alignment for the goblin by saying "I raise it right" , then we wouldn't have any chaotic evil dwarves.
IRL we wouldnt have Charles Manson or other evil people (whose moms swear they raised them right)
We don't have parent exams so there is no proof they raised them right.
The only way to know if it is a good mom or dad is if the kids want to spend time with their parents when they grown up and live somewhere else.If you don't spend time with the parent when you don't have to: they were not good parents. They might be passable (C - grade) though.
Plus, did you even research Charles Manson?
"An illegitimate and unplanned child, he was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, November 12, 1934 to Kathleen Maddox, a promiscuous sixteen-year-old who drank too much and got into a lot of trouble" She also ran away from home.
So he was a bastard who was born to a girl who was drunken trouble. Not a good start. The grandma ruled the house with a iron fist, little love resided there.
"If he (grandpa) tried to comfort Mom with a display of affection, such as a pat on the knee or an arm around her shoulder, Grandma was quick to insinuate he was vulgar."
"Charlie never knew his father and never had a real father figure. Kathleen 9mom) had a habit of disappearing for days and weeks at a time, leaving Charlie with his grandmother or his aunt. The aunt was very religious and strict in stark contrast to his mother's permissiveness. ... There was no continuity in his life: he was always being foisted on someone new; he moved from one dingy rooming house to another; there were only transitory friendships that he made on the streets."
His mom sold him for a pitcher of beer once.
"Though friendless, his young mind bypassed the loneliness of his surroundings. He watched, listened, pretended his imaginative resources knew no limit. And he began to steal, as if to hold onto something that continually flew away. There was a consistency and permanency to the habit of stealing and it became easier. With everything transient, the thefts and goods he carried with him offered a sense of stability, a kind of reward. An object owned gave identity to an owner, an identity that had yet to be acknowledged."
"A few more episodes (stealing and getting caught) like that landed Charlie in the Indiana School for Boys for three years. His teachers described him as having trust in no one and "did good work only for those from whom he figured he could obtain something.""
His parent is totally to blame.
Are you racist against our green brothers!?!?!?!?!? lol
It's no laughing matter, Brother Pepsi. These messageboards are overflowing with racist anti-goblin filth. It's the second most racist website on the internet, after stormfront. And it is all perpetuated by Paizo Publishing, which is a known peddler of obscurantist pseudo-scientific garbage.
Check out the first page, second sentence, of their hateful publication, Goblins of Golarion:
Goblins are fast, but weak and unpleasant to be around.
Lies! Lies! Shame on Paizo!
All of you who are sickened by this blatant bigotry in the 47th or so century, please join me, the Anklebiter clan, and the Commonwealth Party of Galt (M-L) in a Glorious People's Revolution that will free the workers, peasants, slaves and goblins of Golarion and allow us to come to a final reckoning with our oppressors and their horses.
Down with Paizo!
Vive le Galt!
A bell curve? More racist pseudo-scientific garbage!
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Get your realistic child raising out of my fantasy roleplaying game.
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how should my PC go about caring for a goblin baby in the setting of an adventure?
You know your GM better than any of us.
If he's going to punish you for being good and attempting to behave in a manner consistent with principals of mercy and kindness and respect for life and belief in redemption and all that sandal-wearing hippie stuff, then just sautee it with some mushrooms and red wine or sell it into slavery or train it to fight dogs at a local underground gambling emporium or something.
If he's going to reward you for playing your alignment, and considers 'killing babies because taking care of them seems mildly inconvenient to the responsibility-free lifestyle I've chosen' to be slightly below the bar to qualify for a good alignment, then mazel tov. Enjoy your new adventures in babysitting and the unpopular notion that good means 'responsible' and 'not the easy path.'
As for the specifics, I'd go with the 'hand off to a temple' notion. Sarenrae is all about redemption and mercy. Shelyn tries real hard to see the good and beauty in everyone. Even non-good Calistrian temples have a tendency to take in strays and half-breeds (half-elves and tieflings, for instance).
The Iomedan church has a branch that burns and tortures humans of the wrong ethnicity, so, probably not. Erastil's church can be kind of pig-headed about fellow humans of the wrong gender putting on airs, so, again, probably not. Torag's church is literally crawling with dwarves, like some smelly foul-mouthed bearded goblin-hating infestation, so, best to avoid them.
Cayden and Desna are a bit less the 'responsible parents' sort of figures, and might not be the best choices. They're a bit flaky, for very different reasons, and a goblin child might need a bit more structure and stability, and some better role models. That being said, raising a goblin to become a Caydenite-trained brewmaster and then releasing him back into the wild might be a great way to keep local goblin tribes too falling-down drunk to be a menace...
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I can't believe I missed this thread until now.
Of course infant goblins can be rehabilitated, I'm living proof!
As to what to do with your baby goblin? M'lord dice will gladly give it a home with its own kind in the goblin-kennels, and teach it the value of hard work.
Well you cant simply demand an alignment for the goblin by saying "I raise it right" , then we wouldn't have any chaotic evil dwarves.
IRL we wouldnt have Charles Manson or other evil people (whose moms swear they raised them right)
We don't have parent exams so there is no proof they raised them right.
The only way to know if it is a good mom or dad is if the kids want to spend time with their parents when they grown up and live somewhere else.
If you don't spend time with the parent when you don't have to: they were not good parents. They might be passable (C - grade) though.Plus, did you even research Charles Manson?
"An illegitimate and unplanned child, he was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, November 12, 1934 to Kathleen Maddox, a promiscuous sixteen-year-old who drank too much and got into a lot of trouble" She also ran away from home.So he was a bastard who was born to a girl who was drunken trouble. Not a good start. The grandma ruled the house with a iron fist, little love resided there.
"If he (grandpa) tried to comfort Mom with a display of affection, such as a pat on the knee or an arm around her shoulder, Grandma was quick to insinuate he was vulgar.""Charlie never knew his father and never had a real father figure. Kathleen 9mom) had a habit of disappearing for days and weeks at a time, leaving Charlie with his grandmother or his aunt. The aunt was very religious and strict in stark contrast to his mother's permissiveness. ... There was no continuity in his life: he was always being foisted on someone new; he moved from one dingy rooming house to another; there were only transitory friendships that he made on the streets."
His mom sold him for a pitcher of beer once.
"Though friendless, his young mind bypassed the loneliness of his surroundings. He watched, listened, pretended his imaginative resources knew no limit. And he began to steal, as if to hold onto something that continually flew away. There was a consistency and permanency to the habit...
You can't blame his parents for mass killings. No one trained or forced him to kill (there is argument he never actually killed anyone personally by his own hand...but whatever). Having crazy parents or family isn't an excuse to do stuff like that. As there are more than just manson that grew up that way, and didnt become legendary villains. In fact some, even possibly many became completely normal, if not very good people.
I knew kids that grew up in very similar environments, they haven't come up with the cure for cancer, but they aren't the bottom feeders of society either. So are they their "parents" fault?
Or did their own individual nature, coupled with what they witnessed or how they were treated as child, compel them to do something completely different?
How many times do you hear, especially when you are growing up, "I'm NEVER going to be like my parents". Personally, I heard that a lot. I saw it a lot in movies of the time too, so I'm sure it wasn't just me and my school mates.
Some people grow up to be EXACTLY like their parents, others, not so much.
The nurture process is more involved than just mom and dad.
Extended family? School/social life? How much time do they spent out of the house at a friends house?
My wife for example had an incredibly hideous home life. She had a very close friend growing up, and spent as much of her time there, as she could. So it can easily be argued, those people had a great influence on her future decisions and perceptions. But are not her parents.
Goblins, however, are surrounded by two things, goblins, and food. So spending time over at auntie Lipsmackers house isn't going to get you a much better outlook on life.
MUCH more cannon states goblins are inherently evil, than there exists alternate rules for playing goblins of other alignments.
SO there is plenty chance to pluck a goblin child from the arms of it's dying mother (that you stuck with your sword) and spend a few years raising it only to be killed in your sleep by that same goblin.
There is NO reason to automatically assume "I raised it right" is going to give you a good goblin. Since you can equally get a chaotic evil human out of a town of totally non evil humans.
and humans are NOT innately evil.
the rules exist for alternate options, not the standard rules.
Now with that in mind. that this goblin COULD be of any alignment as a grown up, taken out of goblin society, BUT has a high chance of being evil?
What do YOU do with it?
I suppose that would depend on YOUR alignment, and possibly religious beliefs.
Dropping a defenseless baby (are they? I don't know any more, 1e made them 'non combatants' are they now?) In a vat of boiling oil, or drowning it, or what not would be an evil act.
But you can't leave it there to starve!
What about detect evil? It wouldn't work would it? Not enough HD.
So that means, inadvertently, that there is STILL hope (even a 2nd level fighter who was CE wouldnt detect, so .....voila)
I think my answer would be looking for a mission or convent of a god that believes in mercy and redemption. The same people who take in half orc children and raise them, could take in a goblin. I mean how DIFFERENT are they at first glance? The half orc is likely much bigger but green and toothy;, red eyes...yea they look a lot a like.
I might also tithe to the mission/convent as they are raising the child, make frequent visits and bring things that are needed to help. (could be some adventure hooks for the dm as well)
My LE magus might want to raise it as a minion.... heck it being evil isn't a BAD thing now is it?
Although the first time he got bit/attacked by it... he'd probably kill it, as he does't like hassles and issues. So I doubt that relationship would last long.
I can't see any positive way of bringing it on adventures with you. Even Batman didn't bring robin out with him initially upon meeting him. He offered him shelter, eventually training (after robin snuck out and followed him on a mission) and even while training him, didnt allow him to do alot of stuff, with a lot of "wait here" type stuff.
Goblins, being naturally mischievous and meddlesome, how often is this critter going to follow the "stay here" command? And they are afraid of horses, is that natural? Are they afraid of them because they are so big? Telling the goblin to stay with the horses might be a bad idea.
The dimensional space thing doesn't seem like a good idea, what would you populate it with? Illusions? Leavin it alone in dark spaces for extended periods of time isn't going to ensure a good happy goblin. Populating it with illusions could have long lasting effects as well. 1) you aren't raising it 2) it has nothing to interact with 3) wouldnt that be like putting a kid on acid? constantly hallucinations can't be a good thing.
turning it over to the "sisters of mercy" until it 'comes of age' seems like the best route to me.
However, then there is the issue of t being a grown goblin.
Half orcs have issues of their own, Mr. Goblin can't just move to town and start a life as a shop keep (although I have been known to have more than one goblin shop keeper before, but one was a witch and could defend himself and they other was under the protection of the proprietor, who was a ogre mage in disguise)
so maybe once it is of age, you could come pick up your incubated goblin and add it as a cohort then.
By then, you will have collected some goblin sized gear and such for it, giving it an increased chance of survival.
Although wouldn't it be at level 1? yikes.
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I feel like you're sticking to the description of goblins far too closely. Yes, as an overview of a race, that's fine. For a given individual, I don't think so.
Also, I'm confused here:
My wife for example had an incredibly hideous home life. She had a very close friend growing up, and spent as much of her time there, as she could. So it can easily be argued, those people had a great influence on her future decisions and perceptions. But are not her parents.
Goblins, however, are surrounded by two things, goblins, and food. So spending time over at auntie Lipsmackers house isn't going to get you a much better outlook on life.
Okay, this works. Yeah, if they're surrounded by nothing but evil people, they'll probably have an evil disposition (though not necessarily, going back to your 'I'm NEVER going to be like...' example).
MUCH more cannon states goblins are inherently evil, than there exists alternate rules for playing goblins of other alignments.
SO there is plenty chance to pluck a goblin child from the arms of it's dying mother (that you stuck with your sword) and spend a few years raising it only to be killed in your sleep by that same goblin.
Wait, that doesn't work. Yes, if they are constantly surrounded by evil people, they've relatively high chance to be evil. Then why, if surrounded by good people, do they suddenly revert to being default evil?
Edit: Forgot this part.
There is NO reason to automatically assume "I raised it right" is going to give you a good goblin. Since you can equally get a chaotic evil human out of a town of totally non evil humans.
and humans are NOT innately evil.
That's the thing. Humans aren't innately evil, and they aren't innately good, or chaotic, or lawful. But they're not all neutral, because they're all individuals that have their own upbringing/experiences/personality/whatever.
Goblins are no more innately evil than humans are innately anything. It's just a norm for the race/culture, but there is infinite possibility for variance within that.
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I've said this before in other threads, but I think it bears repeating here-
Alignment is not a straightjacket.
With the exception of demons and angels (who actually are the embodiments of their ideals), and (arguably) clerics and paladins of the specific gods of Good and Evil, nothing that has an alignment is actually required to act according to it.
One of the most interesting things about Role Playing Games is finding out what situations a character will break their own codes or change their usual actions.
Just because goblins as a whole are evil doesn't mean they all are. It doesn't mean that a baby goblin raised by non-goblins couldn't end up with a different alignment. There aren't any rules about this (besides something like a Helm of Opposite Alignment, or a Geas/Miracle/Wish spell to alter behavior)
The Bestiary entry might say Evil, but all that really means is that a typical example is evil. Atypical examples might have all kinds of differences.
In any case, trying to site real-world examples of psychological behaviors or child rearing stories is flat out silly. Both sides should stop.
The only real answer to the question of the baby goblin is "ask your GM". Everything else is conjecture.
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If he's going to reward you for playing your alignment, and considers 'killing babies because taking care of them seems mildly inconvenient to the responsibility-free lifestyle I've chosen' to be slightly below the bar to qualify for a good alignment, then mazel tov. Enjoy your new adventures in babysitting and the unpopular notion that good means 'responsible' and 'not the easy path.'
@#$% yes.
And even the following criticisms of certain good churches involve problematic outliers, like the Burners "of Iomedae" that are certainly not on Io's good side. (though I'd still be wary of Torag's church period, and frankly his qualifications as a Good deity are pretty damn iffy considering some of the things he's gotten up to)
Even some neutral deities might do in a pinch. The church of Abadar could very well see it as a sort of Grand Experiment, but in the end that's likely going to be more about the benefit of civilization as a whole as the Abadarites see it rather than the goblin child's.
Then there's Irori, which flips that perspective...
Just realized that if one takes everything said about Torag at face value, his church is actually less benign than Calistria's when it comes to certain "outcast" races.
Goblin babies are cuter than pinkskin babies.
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Once i watched this movie about Gandhi. A crying muslin came to him and said "Once, in a fit of rage i smashed the head of this hindu boy, now i fear i'm going to hell. What should i do?". Gandhi answered: "Yes you are going to hell. But i known one way to fool hell. You need to found another hindu boy that lost his parents. And you are going to raise him. But as a hindu, not muslin. Just then will you redeem yourself."
It was a long time and i didn't remember the movie very well but the essence was kind that.
How the baby came to your guard? Your character killed his parents? If so, then the just thing to do should be deliver the little guy to the nearest goblin village and hope that you wont have to face him on the field. If not (if you didn't killed them), why you shouldn't do that? It is because goblins are evil? Then a genocide on the goblin kind should be justifiable... but it isn't. Because they can overcome their natures, it isn't.
It's a tough question really. Sorry my english.
It was actually a hindu man who killed a muslim man.
It was actually a hindu man who killed a muslim man.
But that doesn't make sense. Hindus don't believe in hell like D&D or most religions do. Before you are reincarnated you are in paradise or spirit jail. But again, this is a temporary state before you are reincarnated.
Since they believe in reincarnation, the worst he should think he will be a cricket next life.|
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To put it simply whilst playing through RoTRL my PC (a TN tiefling ranger) has unwillingly and accidentally adopted a baby goblin. Now he doesn't like the idea of thrusting a 2 ft timebomb of puke, crap and tears onto anyone else nor does he like the idea of returning it to a goblin tribe so it can slaughter countless innocent dogs and horses.
Throw in the fact he isn't keen on slaughtering babies or abandoning them the only option left is to raise it himself, whilst adventuring. This is where the problem lies, also I fear the goblin has become too attached to my PC in this short space of time and the my DM will have introduced an extreme vulnerability to Puppy eyes for my PC.
how should my PC go about caring for a goblin baby in the setting of an adventure?
well you have to do the obvious thing. While the baby is toddling around you lay a sword out and a ball. if it goes for the ball make it painless. if it goes for the sword then you get a armored carriage lined with guns and go ronin....
...or you could do pretty good with an unseen servent.
As for alignment issues. I would assume he would pick up the values of the family that raises him. I would assume the baby will be the alignment of the guardian or the party if he sticks around. They can always take a trip deep into goblin territory and drop him off with a family. A druid could easily change into a goblin and give him to a "caring" goblin family
well you have to do the obvious thing. While the baby is toddling around you lay a sword out and a ball. if it goes for the ball make it painless. if it goes for the sword then you get a armored carriage lined with guns and go ronin....
You're like the 10th person to make this joke.
Well that goes back to the 'nature/nurture' debate. If the child is a 'neutral' evil, then it can likely be taught to be better.
But if your GM thinks that the goblins are just evil by... *Waves hand* Birth, and not growing up in the -highly- dysfunctional goblin society (( I mean... they're locked in cages like rats as babies... pyromania and sadism as societal norms?) Then there's not going to be much you can do. You should ask your GM Out of game how he sees the goblins.
Personally I've played a goblin PC before. It was all kinds of fun. We played it as if much of their insanity was learned, not inborn. still there's a good bit of fun to be had by playing them a bit zany.
To return to the question though, it depends on how your GM sees Goblins.
A) Evil by nature, not learned: Then you need to find some other goblins to give it to. As it's just going to bite off your face as you sleep
B) Evil is learned, therefore the goblin can be taught to be 'better'. Then have fun with it and training it. It'll likely still have some odd personality traits but there's no reason to just 'assume' that it'll slit your throat for your matches.
This is probably the most important portion to note. If it's evil is inborn, then nothing you do will prevent it from trying to eat your feet while you sleep...and probably when you are awake as well. The only thing that might dissuade it is if you have a wimpy spellcaster that looks easier to eat nearby, then it might try to eat your companion first.
Feed it... to an animal companion. Or leave it with your parents... if they have an animal companion. Or just leave it... anywhere. Or train it to pass you potions so you can retrieve them as a swift action.
Ma-ma! Ma-ma! Ma-ma!
buy a whip, a chair, a cage.. grow him up like a "Sir"
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It isn't as though travel with babies isn't something humans ourselves haven't dealt with for some time. Yes, it will be troublesome and risky, but pioneer women and families suffered during long journeys in the wilderness.
For folks in the US, there's the Oregon Trail: "On the Oregon Trail, one in every five women were in some stage of pregnancy. Nearly all married woman traveled with small children." (Source)
Or: "It's estimated that 40,000 of the emigrants were children, one of every five..." (Source)
...not to mention travel in other cultures at different times, especially more nomadic societies. At least in Golarion, you have your party and magic to help you.
Craft a papoose and purchase a wand of endure elements for the tyke, and a similar one of prestidigitation for the diapers. Perhaps a low-level hireling to stand off to the side and hold the child during combat.