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Essentially can an earth elemental (lets say friendly for the sake of argument) carry someone underground. Obviously they won't be able to breathe without precautions, but otherwise is it possible?
Follow up: What spells/items would make it possible?
Example scenario: A halfling wizard has an earth elemental familiar.
I see no evidence that the earth elemental can carry anything through the rock. Earth glide states that the elemental can swim through earth while burrowing. So, no I don't think so.
I've buried numerous characters alive this way.
Is it completely legal though? Not really sure. I happened to be following the rule of cool at the time.
EDIT: Earth elementals, like all true elementals, have mutable forms. There's no reason an earth elemental couldn't completely envelop someone while grappling prior to earthgliding into the earth and despositing them there.
I've buried numerous characters alive this way.
Is it completely legal though? Not really sure. I happened to be following the rule of cool at the time.
EDIT: Earth elementals, like all true elementals, have mutable forms. There's no reason an earth elemental couldn't completely envelop someone while grappling prior to earthgliding into the earth and despositing them there.
That's what I thought too. Obviously air and light are an issue, but otherwise...
Could it carry something non-living? A sword? Gems? papers?
Could it carry something non-living? A sword? Gems? papers?Earth is unworked dirt and rock. Anything that's made, no longer qualifies.
So raw gems, but not cut ones?
Nothing about earthglide mentions whether the earth is "worked" or not. An earth elemental could glide through a worked stone wall, or even a brick and mortar wall. Some metal rebar in the wall would stop it right good though, much like an ore vein in the ground. But gems are not "metal" and as such could be passed through easily, cut or not.
Beyond that, the closest thing the ability references to normal movement is "swims as easily as a fish through water" A fish can carry something else in water, just look at any shark. It doesn't have to make sense physics-wise: if it helps, imagine the earth itself acts like water in the presence of an earthgliding creature.
As far as I can see, the ability allows the elemental to move in a medium that most creatures can not. To me it seems sensible that any aspect of "normal" movement would be possible, including carrying items or creatures. Creatures that need to breathe might be in trouble though.
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Earth is unworked dirt and rock. Anything that's made, no longer qualifies.
That interpretation would negate earth glide as a class feature.
Wizard: I use earth glide to escape the BBEG.
GM: sorry you have to remove your clothing and drop all your gear first.
Somehow, I doubt that is how earth glide works. An earth gliding creature can carry things with it. What an earth gliding creature cannot do is pass through worked materials.
I agree. That clearly is not how earthglide works. I also don't buy the "essence" interpretation. If that was the case, would it not leave a pile of earth behind on the surface while its "essence" formed a new body upon emerging?
I think the earthglide referred here is the one from the Wizard Earth school, gained at 8th level.
Earth Glide (Su): At 8th level, you gain the ability to move
through earth, dirt, and stone for a number of rounds per
day equal to your wizard level. You cannot move through
worked earth or stone; only natural substances can be
traversed. If your total duration expires before you exit the
earth, you are f lung back to the point where you entered
the stone, take 4d6 points of damage, and are stunned
for 1 round. Your burrowing does not leave a hole, nor
does it give any sign of your presence (although you can
be detected by creatures with tremorsense). These rounds
do not need to be consecutive.
This is from the earth elemental, which is what the original post was referring to.
Earth Glide (Ex)
A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Going back to the OP: I'd say yes, an earth elemental can earth glide while carrying someone, and yes, they would need some means of not breathing (like life bubble, or just holding their breath).
If the earth elemental were trying to move an opponent via earth glide as part of a grapple, then of course it would be treated as moving into hazardous terrain (ie. the victim would get a free break attempt at a +4 bonus). If it were a willing participant in the endeavor - for example, as part of an escape or as a kind of improvised passwall, then it would be fine with the understanding that the passenger can't assist at all (in addition to being unable to breathe, see, cast spells, speak, and so on), so the elemental (or earth wizard) would need to make appropriate strength checks to move the character.
As far as "stuff" goes, certainly an elemental (or other earth gliding being) can carry objects into the ground with no problem (barring encumbrance considerations); indeed, a very effective way to hide something from locate object is to place it in a lead box, and then earth glide the box a thousand feet or so underground or into the side of a mountain! (I'd further rule that a dead character or other being is an "object" for purposes of earth glide: one imagines a fancy cemetery in which bodies are interred via earth glide into solid rock, the better to insure that they stay dead...)
tl;dr: earth glide is simply movement, like flight or swimming, only through a solid medium.
I agree. That clearly is not how earthglide works. I also don't buy the "essence" interpretation. If that was the case, would it not leave a pile of earth behind on the surface while its "essence" formed a new body upon emerging?No because the ability specifically states that it leaves no trace, it doesn't dig a tunnel or move any earth.
Thank you for proving my point.
I've buried numerous characters alive this way.
Is it completely legal though? Not really sure. I happened to be following the rule of cool at the time.
EDIT: Earth elementals, like all true elementals, have mutable forms. There's no reason an earth elemental couldn't completely envelop someone while grappling prior to earthgliding into the earth and despositing them there.
There's no rule that says they can't explode in a rainbow of pure awesome and automatically deal 11nty billion d12 damage to everyone in a 30 foot radius either.
Engulf, swallow hole, or any mechanism which would do what your suggesting are already abilities. The lack of them on the earth elemental s abilities says that they can't do that.
There's no rule that says they can't explode in a rainbow of pure awesome and automatically deal 11nty billion d12 damage to everyone in a 30 foot radius either.
Engulf, swallow hole, or any mechanism which would do what your suggesting are already abilities. The lack of them on the earth elemental s abilities says that they can't do that.
They can't grapple or pin someone and drag them about?
I beg to differ.
(You know that's not what I was saying. Please don't put words in my mouth and I won't put any in yours.)
I'd say the answer is no, any more than a ghost could carry a person through a wall.
Interesting.
I'd say the answer is no, any more than a ghost could carry a person through a wall.
That's an interesting analogy, but there's a significant difference between earth gliding and incorporeality: earth glide is a form of burrowing - ie. earth is displaced during movement - but incorporeal passage through solid material involves no such "physical" displacement of material.
Granted, earth glide shows no sign of passage - the "wake" is removed - but it's not an incorporeal-style movement; it's still a physical burrowing.
A ghost can't carry an object through a wall, either, even if it's a ghost touch object which the ghost can "equip".
Leaving RAW aside, as there isn't enough of it on this subject to count for much, I'd think that an earth elemental could indeed carry something or someone with it while earth gliding (just as the earth elementalist wizard can as a class ability) but that the earth elemental might (depending on the game master's interpretation) have to put the object or person inside itself, which would mean that the elemental would have to be at least one size category bigger than the object or creature carried.
They can't grapple or pin someone and drag them about?
Are you using the Drag combat maneuver rules from the APG? ("You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle."
Since earth elementals are one of the more common entities for PCs to have under their control, I'd be wary of giving them any unintended abilities.
It's logical that a fire elemental, being completely malleable, could engulf an enemy so he can't see anything but fire and can't breath anything but fire. It's logical that a person experiencing that would be blind, helpless, and dead in seconds. But it's not how the rules are supposed to work.
Since earth elementals are one of the more common entities for PCs to have under their control, I'd be wary of giving them any unintended abilities.
It's logical that a fire elemental, being completely malleable, could engulf an enemy so he can't see anything but fire and can't breath anything but fire. It's logical that a person experiencing that would be blind, helpless, and dead in seconds. But it's not how the rules are supposed to work.
Yay for more strawman arguments. :|
Again, I'm not making any such claims. I'm talking about grappling, and moving the grapple per the grapple rules. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Some people seem to be having trouble grasping how an earth elemental burying someone alive would be possible--generally by making things up like hinting that an elemental isn't a physical being, but a material-possessing essence or making other incorrect assumptions. I was merely citing established conceptual elements (it has long been established in Pathfinder that true elementals do possess mutable forms) as a means of giving a plausible explanation/visualization.
As for hard mechanics though? Grappling doesn't limit what movement modes you can use when moving the grapple, so using earthglide and/or burrow to drag an enemy underground should be as natural as a bird flying off with its prey. Many monsters are even built with this very tactic in mind, such as the roc, kraken, dragon, or ankheg.
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To answer the title of the thread: Yes. Example below.
Druid wildshapes into Earth Elemental.
Druid casts burrow on willing target.
Druid proceeds to drag someone underground either using the drag combat maneuver rules or with the willing person in tow at their spell-indicated speed.
Essentially can an earth elemental (lets say friendly for the sake of argument) carry someone underground. Obviously they won't be able to breathe without precautions, but otherwise is it possible?
Nope.
-James
DO you care to say why or just throw out a blanket opinion with no backup?
To answer the title of the thread: Yes. Example below.
Druid wildshapes into Earth Elemental.
Druid casts burrow on willing target.
Druid proceeds to drag someone underground either using the drag combat maneuver rules or with the willing person in tow at their spell-indicated speed.
If someone has burrow cast on them why do they need the earth elemental?
Seconding dissent on that particular description of earth elemental movement. I LOVE the idea, don't get me wrong -- it's an ability worth a unique monster in the future -- but if earth elementals moved essence through stone, then 1) They would rip a hole into the ground when they animate earth/stone and begin to move around over land; they would leave a large pile of earth/stone when they begin Earth Gliding; and 2) since you are merely damaging their effectively-possessed body, they would logically be able to heal by abandoning it and entering a new one unless you really start bending over backwards describing how 'hacking at the earth is harming its binding essence.'
As earth glide and earth elemental movement is described it is pretty much impossible to come up with a real-world means of explaining it. There is no way in our known physics for "essences" to move through a material "without a ripple or sign of its presence".
So I assume something else is going on, something like the elemental or earth gliding individual is actually not interacting directly with the material, it's more like they are simply able to co-exist with it like it was empty space while they are moving.
Now, that begs the question of whether they could extend that effect to anything they carry. I personally don't see why not. Presumably earth elementals have some sort of society where they have to move around and interact with other earth elementals, so I assume that on occasion they would need to carry something from place to place. The fact that earth gliding wizards can bring their gear with them would support this.
Now, I might well grant an uncooperative character some sort of saving throw or at CMD check to avoid being dragged underground and deposited there, but I don't see any reason a creature could not voluntarily accept the earth elemental's embrace and travel with them.
Now, I might well grant an uncooperative character some sort of saving throw or at CMD check to avoid being dragged underground and deposited there, but I don't see any reason a creature could not voluntarily accept the earth elemental's embrace and travel with them.
Such rules already exist:
If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Maissen: Other creatures with earth glide (such as spellcasters) can carry things through solid rock. Therefore there is precedent that suggests that earth elementals may be able to do it too.
With the exception of ghost touch equipment, there is nothing to suggest incorporeal creatures can act similarly.
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I'd say the answer is no, any more than a ghost could carry a person through a wall.That's an interesting analogy, but there's a significant difference between earth gliding and incorporeality: earth glide is a form of burrowing - ie. earth is displaced during movement - but incorporeal passage through solid material involves no such "physical" displacement of material.
Granted, earth glide shows no sign of passage - the "wake" is removed - but it's not an incorporeal-style movement; it's still a physical burrowing.
A ghost can't carry an object through a wall, either, even if it's a ghost touch object which the ghost can "equip".
So your opinion is that:
- earth elemental get what essentially amount to a bonus death attack against breathing creatures;- they burrow through about any material, displacing it (and so damaging it) at full speed.
You earth elementals work very differently from those of all the GM I know.
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Maissen: Other creatures with earth glide (such as spellcasters) can carry things through solid rock. Therefore there is precedent that suggests that earth elementals may be able to do it too.
With the exception of ghost touch equipment, there is nothing to suggest incorporeal creatures can act similarly.
As you throw strawman objections around, can I do the same with you?
Creatures with earth glide can carry their equipment with them. That is not the same thing as carrying another creature with them, as far as the game go.
In Pathfinder/D&D attended equipment is treated as an extension of the creature (look how creature with fire resistance make their equipment immune to fire). Others creatures aren't treated as carried equipment. You can't share your fire resistance embracing a creature or even carrying him around on a sling.
Game balance wise, giving a creature a death attack change his/its CR.
The "rule of cool" isn't a good meter for game balance.
Fair enough, Diego. I never meant to say that "it is this way" in that post, merely that there is a point from which an argument could be made.
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Just my 2cp from 30+ yrs of gaming....
It's not in the spirit of the game to enable elementals use a special ability to slay PCs.
Its a great, cool, fun, dramatic idea... but...
I would reserve your creativity for some higher level end-boss. Let the characters find out ahead of time that the creature has this ability, and that many have died being pulled down into the earth. Offer some means of counter-acting this ability (if you design one... mythic anyone?)
In otherwords, don't stiffle your creativity. However, if you're asking if earth elementals can just grapple, pin, and move creatures into the earth via earthglide or other movement, then I believe the game answer is "no".
-Pax
Being buried alive is not automatic death.
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I don't allow it because, the way I see it, an elemental's form is fixed upon manifestation.
The monster's description backs that up:
"When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance. Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental's body."
There's nothing in there about earth elemental's having the ability to change their form to accommodate passengers or form rock bridges or solid walls at will, and the stat block gives them nothing that equals that ability. The closest existing quality is Amorphous and not even Mud elementals have that ability.
The other elementals fit, basically, the same description. Fire elementals tend to show up as serpents or humanoid flames, Air elementals prefer bird or semi-humanoid vortex shapes, etc. Even if you could coerce an earth elemental to manifest itself as a hollow spheroid, you'd need Earthglide yourself to get inside.
At best, a gargantuan or colossal earth elemental might have an oral cavity large enough to trap a small or medium creature, but it generally wouldn't manifest with an esophagus or stomach or any other hollow space within itself because those things would serve no necessary function and elementals are, by nature, simple creatures.
I'm in the
- "Essence"
and
-"No" camps. Here's why:
Elementals are mysterious, like lots of other-planar creatures. Golarion NEEDS mystery, and I don't need every player already knowing what everything can do, and ready to argue with me when something doesn't go their way.
While I know people love the game, and love to hash out these obscure rulings, (I enjoy it too, to a point) there must remain some mystery within the game. Heck, I would enjoy it tremendously if the magic system left some room for interpretation.
I don't need 7th level magic users dragging my NPCs to a suffocating death the next round. Sure, I could do it back to them, but then what kind of fun are we having?
I allow Hero Points so that players can occasionally "bend the rules" using "rule of cool" and 1 Hero Point, so I might allow it depending on circumstances. Maybe the earth elemental is tricky and surprises the PC's with it sometime, leaving a bad guy they were pursuing buries up to his shoulders "I didn't know you could do that?!!" kind of thing. Gotta have fun with it you know.
]They can't grapple or pin someone and drag them about?
I beg to differ.
You know that's not what I was saying. Please don't put words in my mouth and I won't put any in yours.Don't try to claim you know whats in my head. I most certainly did not know what inane rules exploit you thought would accomplish this, and you most certainly were using the "there's no rule against it" argument.
And no, since the thing they're grappling doesn't have earthglide, and earth glide doesn't grant you the ability to share it, pushing or pulling someone into solid rock does exactly what pushing one solid object into another does: nothing.
Michael Loy has it right. I'm not sure why everyone is treating this as such a big deal.
Everyone's free to rule how they want. In any case, I know I'm right.*
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If someone has burrow cast on them why do they need the earth elemental?To answer the title of the thread: Yes. Example below.
Druid wildshapes into Earth Elemental.
Druid casts burrow on willing target.
Druid proceeds to drag someone underground either using the drag combat maneuver rules or with the willing person in tow at their spell-indicated speed.
Good grief, this answers your OP. You asked if it could be done and what spells are needed and I told you. Burrow will run out, assume minimum level. Perhaps a successful offensive cast and failed save. Use your imagination.
Now as far as a non-druid earth elemental... I'm in agreement with Mr. Loy.
I tend to agree with the idea that an earth elemental can transport objects, but not people, with earthglide.
that is just my opinion.
on a side note i think a lot of earth elemental questions are coming up not from the GM perspective, but from player perspective, since there is now (with ARG) a cool dwarven paladin archetype that gets a very weak earth elemental instead of a normal paladin mount, and people are trying to figure out uses for it.
What about people in objects (such as a chest, sack, or bag of holding)? ;D
What about people in objects (such as a chest, sack, or bag of holding)? ;DNo. :P
Just no.
Kill 'em, move 'em, then raise 'em. Live with it (even if they don't fully...)
-James
Why not? I'm pretty sure I can stick someone in my bag of holding then teleport us both. What's so different here?