(Goblin) Snakes and Spellcasting


Rules Questions


Simple question, can a goblin snake or an awakened snake who takes levels in a spellcasting class actually cast spells with somatic components?

Relevant information:

Magic wrote:
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Now we know by 'hand' they mean anything capable of fine manipulation such as a tentacle (this has been stated by Devs and is supported by the [optional] targeted attack rules).

Snakes don't appear to have any limbs capable of fine manipulation. Their tales are not prehensile and cannot manipulate objects.

Thoughts?


There are a few examples of snake-like and other hand-less creatures with spells in the Beastiaries(Coatl, Naga line of monsters, dragons, Aranea, Neh-Thalgu and others, but I don't feel like going through all of it), so I would say yes, they can.


That's weird.

What's stopping a wizard who has been balefully polymorphed into a viper from casting spells without verbal components (or any number of other creatures without 'hands')? Anything?


Maybe because it isn't their natural shape? A wild shaped Druid needs natural spell to cast spells with verbal and somatic components.


CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Maybe because it isn't their natural shape? A wild shaped Druid needs natural spell to cast spells with verbal and somatic components.

Then why does somatic components specifically cite hands (meaning any limb that can manipulate fine objects)?

Also, if I alter self into an orc I can still cast spells (if I was a Wizard!) even though I am no longer in my 'natural shape.'

Silver Crusade

It's likely due only to the general assumption that player characters are going to be from humanoid races. Folks like nagas, goblin snakes, and the like would be exceptions to that expectation.


Alright, this thread seems to indicate that what happened is text in the 3.5 SRD that created a special exception for creatures without any kind of hands was excised from the PRD.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ln7o&page=2?How-can-blink-dogs-be-sorcerer s

Looking to confirm that is the case.


Whale_Cancer wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Maybe because it isn't their natural shape? A wild shaped Druid needs natural spell to cast spells with verbal and somatic components.

Then why does somatic components specifically cite hands (meaning any limb that can manipulate fine objects)?

Also, if I alter self into an orc I can still cast spells (if I was a Wizard!) even though I am no longer in my 'natural shape.'

I don't know for certain, it could be that an orc is similar enough(has hands and feet, like you're used to) to be able to cast spells. I know they wrote the rules based around being humanoid, and assume so it would make it easier for players to relate. If somatic components require hands all the time or things that can manipulate fine objects then a lot of creatures couldn't cast spells(like the claws of a dragon. They don't look like they can really manipulate a door or a mouse trap).


James Jacobs wrote:

If nagas can be sorcerers... I have no concerns or worries about blink dogs doing the same. Material components are the only things that are really a concern for handless spellcasters, and sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free.

For humanoids, somatic components include hand gestures. For things with other shaped bodies, somatic components include whatever gestures their body naturally makes, be that paw or leg movements, tail wagging, squirming bodies, or whatever.

Note, however, that the actual text which allows this does not exist in Pathfinder.

3.5 wrote:
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature's possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

Edit: It actually isn't in the 3.5 SRD! It is just in the actual books. That explains why it wasn't a part of Pathfinder. Pretty funny.


Whale_Cancer wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

If nagas can be sorcerers... I have no concerns or worries about blink dogs doing the same. Material components are the only things that are really a concern for handless spellcasters, and sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free.

For humanoids, somatic components include hand gestures. For things with other shaped bodies, somatic components include whatever gestures their body naturally makes, be that paw or leg movements, tail wagging, squirming bodies, or whatever.

Note, however, that the actual text which allows this does not exist in Pathfinder.

3.5 SRD wrote:
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature's possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

It seems that happens every now and again. I can't remember any right now, but I know there are a few others where something was omitted from 3.5 when it was transferred over to PF.


CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Whale_Cancer wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

If nagas can be sorcerers... I have no concerns or worries about blink dogs doing the same. Material components are the only things that are really a concern for handless spellcasters, and sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free.

For humanoids, somatic components include hand gestures. For things with other shaped bodies, somatic components include whatever gestures their body naturally makes, be that paw or leg movements, tail wagging, squirming bodies, or whatever.

Note, however, that the actual text which allows this does not exist in Pathfinder.

3.5 SRD wrote:
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature's possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.
It seems that happens every now and again. I can't remember any right now, but I know there are a few others where something was omitted from 3.5 when it was transferred over to PF.

Item slot affinities are all that I can think of off the top of my head, but yeah, it happens.

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