Illusion Magic


Advice


Hello everyone. So, I am making an Illusionist Wizard for our upcoming Skull and Shackles game that my friend is running. I am actually doing a Thassilonian Specialist so that I can get more castings of important Illusion spells. I have been spending the past few weeks looking over all of the different spells available, and I am wanting to just kind of review them and make sure I am understanding their purpose.

Also, I cant wait to casy Phantasmal Killer.
Hehehe.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLVLMA7xakc

Ghost Sound: Eh, not much here...it makes noises at different areas. I would imagine it is mostly only good for causing distractions and things of that nature. Plus can add sounds to other images I suppose...

Haunted Fey Aspect: I really dont understand the point of this spell. I mean, DR is neat, but wasting my action every turn to cast this instead of doing stuff like shooing a crossbow? No purpose...

Silent Image: So, it says in the book that illusions are meant to confuse the senses of people. So, that leads me to believe that if I cast this spell to look like something, like for example create a boulder to block LoS to a group of arhcers from my party, then they wouldnt get an Will save to disbelieve until they try and interract with it using an different sense. I would even argue that a group of archers wouldnt even try to shoot arrows at a randomly summoned boulder because they would assume that it would be a waste of arrows. I have been trying to think of other things I could create with this spell that use only visual aspects. A line of trees, a boulder, pits created in areas where people are trying to come at us from. Could you create a effect similar to obscuring mist? That seems pretty good, granting concealment and all. I would imagine a will check would be made when they notice that the mist isnt disappating.

Minor Image: Honestly, these later spells seem kind of lackluster. I mean, adding sound to an image doesnt seem like it would make much of a difference. It would reduce the numbers of ways to recognize it as an illusion. Nothing really comes to mind that I couldnt already do with Silent Image that this would allow me to do.

Major Image: Yeah so...wall of fire I guess...maybe a wall of sand.

Illusory Wall: What is the purpose of this spell exactly? I guess it is good that it is a permanent spell without the need for permanency. Cant a silent image already do this sort of thing, just without the permanent part?

So far from looking at most of the spells, it seems like a pretty good class of caster. I am a little worried about not having access to the Mage Armor spell, so I am trying to think my way out of that little predicament. If anyone has any suggestions for that, it would be much appreciative.

Sovereign Court

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Illusion magic the the most powerful, and the hardest school of magic to master. Simply with what you wrote is showing that you will have trouble with how these spells functions. The major component is simply how your imagination can make someone believe something that you want them to believe.

An example is with Major Image. You are going with making walls. I on the other hand would say something along the lines that "You talk to much, time to do something about that, and then give you the sensation of heat around your mouth, the smell of burning flesh, the tactile that your mouth has been covered over with flesh, and the visual to those watching you that you no longer have a mouth.

Basically Illusion magic is thinking outside of the box. Do that and you will do well with that School. Otherwise you might want to try a different school that has concrete effects.


Um.. ?

I don't think that school of magic means what you think it means.


My DM and I are going to have a sit down and talk about how Illusion magic works so that we are at least on the same page and understand how this stuff works. I really dont want to end up using up my spells to create illusions only to have them do nothing because I didnt know what was going on. Can you guys give suggestions on how to best present him with this information? I was thinking it would be best to maybe tell him that an illusion is meant to confuse an specific sense. So for example, silent image would create an boulder, and an group or archers wouldnt be able to shoot through it unless they get to touch it, etc. But then I think about what if I was to create an illusory box around a group of people. Would they get the Will save immediatly to disbelieve it, or would they have to take a round figuring out if it was real? Or would they automatically assume it was real since it looks real to them. Rather a confusing set of spells if I must say.


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both you and your GM should read these.
all about illusions part 1
all about illusions part 2
all about illusions part 3
all about illusions part 4


I really appreciate the links you provided. I read over them {and even printed them out} just to make sure we have some reference material for if anything kinda awkward comes up. Honestly, a few questions have become raised in my mind even after reading over this stuff, that I kind of feel is important to consider.

Firstly, it states that Figments cant be made to make stuff look like something else. But then you have stuff like...Illusory Wall. I was under the assumption that I could create walls with the lower level spells, such as Silent Image. The only thing I can think is that Illusory Wall is both permanent, and is still not visible through it even despite disbelieving it. But am I allowed to create walls with Silent Image then? My party runs into a hallway, I could create a wall that at least looks flush with the end of the hallway to look like the area ends, correct? I am adding to the missing space of the hallway, and shaping it to look exactly like the wall it is supposed to be part of. Seems a little complicated.

Also, Silent Image states I can create creatures, objects, and force effects. I wonder if by this statement if I can even create walls with it. A wall is an object I suppose. When it comes to creating Force effects, I have to wonder what kind of things are considered force. I think what I may try to do in the first few levels when using silent image is to create anything from Conjuration/Evocation spells, so that our DM and I can at least have an idea of how these effects will work. It would make sense that if later on Shadow Conjuration can recreate specific effects, then I should be able to create those effects at low level, just without the damage. Pretend to be more powerful than I actually am essentially...


Duskrunner, none of the Illusion spells do that. Definitely not major image.


8 Red Wizards wrote:
Duskrunner, none of the Illusion spells do that. Definitely not major image.

I dunno...I think an argument could be made that the Silence spell causes that to happen. But yeah, none of the like...other illusion spells could do that...


So...Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image. I have been thinking up ideas of how to use these spells in combat. There is the obvious creations such as boulders to hide behind, walls to block line of sight, etc. But I have been trying to think about other ways to use this.

Silent Image. Could I use this spell to create images of incorporeal shadows {such as the creature} to surround a group of enemies, and they should just stand there fighting against them at least for a little while? I mean, normally any sort of attack at an illusionary creature would cause the enemies to get auto-pass will saves, but these creatures are incorporeal. Would they ever actually get a save at all, much less ever stop trying to fight them despite the fact that they never end up attacking back?

Minor Image. I could see using this spell to create swarms of insects to also distract enemies. It creates the sounds necessary to create, maybe the buzzing noises, and the people fighting them would continue to attack at them. Their AC would be higher, due to them being swarms. Possibly even immune to slashing due to the capabilities of a swarm {I would need to look it up to make sure}. I was also thinking I could pull an Itachi, and create a swarm of ravens flying around my character to provide cover for attacks against me, and still be able to shoot out from it using my crossbow that I carry. Plus the sound creates the sounds of the birds.

Major Image. There is the classic, which is a wall of fire. Not sure what else is notable that I could create with this spell, that I couldnt already create. Maybe lava??


KainMalice wrote:
Silent Image. Could I use this spell to create images of incorporeal shadows {such as the creature} to surround a group of enemies, and they should just stand there fighting against them at least for a little while? I mean, normally any sort of attack at an illusionary creature would cause the enemies to get auto-pass will saves, but these creatures are incorporeal.

This isn't exactly true. you are always in control of your illusions, so if you make them look like they are being affected by attacks, the opponents only get a normal will save, not an auto-pass will save, and if they fail they will react as if the illusions are real.

KainMalice wrote:

Minor Image. I could see using this spell to create swarms of insects to also distract enemies. It creates the sounds necessary to create, maybe the buzzing noises, and the people fighting them would continue to attack at them. Their AC would be higher, due to them being swarms. Possibly even immune to slashing due to the capabilities of a swarm {I would need to look it up to make sure}. I was also thinking I could pull an Itachi, and create a swarm of ravens flying around my character to provide cover for attacks against me, and still be able to shoot out from it using my crossbow that I carry. Plus the sound creates the sounds of the birds.

Major Image. There is the classic, which is a wall of fire. Not sure what else is notable that I could create with this spell, that I couldnt already create. Maybe lava??

remember you do not have to create things that exist, i use a persistent, threatening major image that looks like a cloud of pure chaos to help my allies flank in combat.


asthyril wrote:
KainMalice wrote:
Silent Image. Could I use this spell to create images of incorporeal shadows {such as the creature} to surround a group of enemies, and they should just stand there fighting against them at least for a little while? I mean, normally any sort of attack at an illusionary creature would cause the enemies to get auto-pass will saves, but these creatures are incorporeal.

This isn't exactly true. you are always in control of your illusions, so if you make them look like they are being affected by attacks, the opponents only get a normal will save, not an auto-pass will save, and if they fail they will react as if the illusions are real.

KainMalice wrote:

Minor Image. I could see using this spell to create swarms of insects to also distract enemies. It creates the sounds necessary to create, maybe the buzzing noises, and the people fighting them would continue to attack at them. Their AC would be higher, due to them being swarms. Possibly even immune to slashing due to the capabilities of a swarm {I would need to look it up to make sure}. I was also thinking I could pull an Itachi, and create a swarm of ravens flying around my character to provide cover for attacks against me, and still be able to shoot out from it using my crossbow that I carry. Plus the sound creates the sounds of the birds.

Major Image. There is the classic, which is a wall of fire. Not sure what else is notable that I could create with this spell, that I couldnt already create. Maybe lava??

remember you do not have to create things that exist, i use a persistent, threatening major image that looks like a cloud of pure chaos to help my allies flank in combat.

I sorta get that. I think my DM would rule that the illusion would need to be concentrated on for me to force it to react to an enemy appropriatly. Also, saying that you create a cloud of pure chaos...that seems...impossible to comprehend. This basically brings up a flaw in the human psyche. Our imagination is still inhibited to the realities of the world. I mean, an illusion can create a dragon, but a dragon is still a mixture of a reptile, wings, and fire.


KainMalice wrote:
I sorta get that. I think my DM would rule that the illusion would need to be concentrated on for me to force it to react to an enemy appropriatly. Also, saying that you create a cloud of pure chaos...that seems...impossible to comprehend. This basically brings up a flaw in the human psyche. Our imagination is still inhibited to the realities of the world. I mean, an illusion can create a dragon, but a dragon is still a mixture of a reptile, wings, and fire.

well the spells in question require you to concentrate on them anyway, and even though combat is turn based everything happens about at the same time within a 6 second period. just because you went first in initiative doesn't mean you didn't see what your enemies were about to do and had your illusions react appropriately.

a giant dark cloud of flashing lights of every color, strange haunting noises and the occasional scream, with occasional random mouths coming out at various angles randomly biting at anything nearby. is that threatening enough for you without applying any game world examples? remember illusions are only as limiting as the player's imagination.


KainMalice wrote:
I sorta get that. I think my DM would rule that the illusion would need to be concentrated on for me to force it to react to an enemy appropriatly.

Go Gnome or Human. Pick up the effortless trickery feat (get racial heritage as well if human), you can maintain a single illusion spell as a swift action. Use it for silent image and you are set. I would cast ghost sound first and give it a delay of one round, then follow with silent image and you have a minor image. You could also get improved familiar and pick up a familiar capable of casting ghost sound and work together.

You could maintain one illusion while doing other stuff, or maintain two and effectively take several enemies out of combat by distracting them.


I nearly went the illusion route myself, but it seems you don't really get much better then silent image. That spell alone can do 90% of what the whole school is capable of. The best part of the spell is often, there isn't a save. You don't need to specialize and actually could get away with using a wand.

Haunted Fey Aspect. Please tell me why anyone would use this spell? Give it an hour duration and maybe it will be worth a spell slot, otherwise forget it.

I like the idea of creating an illusion consisting of just heat, that is a good idea.

I have read the links before and I am really hoping someone proves me totally wrong.

Grand Lodge

The low level illusion spells aren't too powerful. Mirror image and invisibility are solid choices for combat advantage, but I honestly suggest some of the conjuration school spells for those first spell levels (pits, stinking cloud, etc.). Images to create battlefield obstructions are great, since opponents have to waste actions interacting with and disbelieving them. Also, illusion of pit, illusion of pit, illusion of pit, after first doing a real create pit. The real power of illusion magic is 5th and 4th level. I'm talking about the shadow spells. They give you so much versatility, and their DCs are based on their level not the duplicated spells level. Often they won't even disbelieve if you work your DCs hard enough. That and a persistent rod.

Shadow Lodge

asthyril wrote:
KainMalice wrote:
Silent Image. Could I use this spell to create images of incorporeal shadows {such as the creature} to surround a group of enemies, and they should just stand there fighting against them at least for a little while? I mean, normally any sort of attack at an illusionary creature would cause the enemies to get auto-pass will saves, but these creatures are incorporeal.

This isn't exactly true. you are always in control of your illusions, so if you make them look like they are being affected by attacks, the opponents only get a normal will save, not an auto-pass will save, and if they fail they will react as if the illusions are real.

True story:

I was involved in a multi-party event in Living Greyhawk. At one point, our party meets up with a higher-level party fighting something. I mention that my gnome is followed by the ghost of a dwarf warrior. The higher-level DM takes over, sets everything up, sends a few mooks to deal with the ghost. A round later, he asks me, what sort of ghost is it? Did I summon a wraith or something?

Nope, Silent Image.

DM facepalms.


The image spells are all very nice and versatile. IN combat I like to use them to create some kind of "barrier" to fence enemies in. Major image works for a "firewall"-style thing, with silent I might go with an incorporeal, spiked chain circling the enemy, which looks like it would be very nasty to touch. Being this close would probably let the enemies get a save, of course. "Summons" are also good - incorporeal undead for silent image, anything imaginable for the higher ones.

I also play a caster with some illusion spells in S&S right know. One idea I had is using minor image to make a huge, ferocious dragon chained to the deck of our ship appear when we approach a hostile ship, to intimidate them by threatening to set "our dragon" on them.

For higher level play, also look at Mirage Arcana. It's often considered a bit lackluster, but remember that (according to the S&S Player's Guide) it lets you make illusions of ships as well. You could make it seem like you had an entire fleet of pirate ships accompanying you!


So, if a bunch of enemy character standing around end up fighting against a group of illusion summoned shadows, how often would they get to roll an Will save to disbelieve the creatures that they are fighting? Everytime they hit them?

As far as to the usefulness of the higher level "silent image" spells, I would rule as a DM that there is an auto-pass if the Silent Image spell is unable to provide an obvious effect. For example, Silent Image couldnt make an swarm of bees, because it lacks the sound that a swarm would make. And then, Silent Image couldnt create a wall of fire, because it lacks the sound of crackling flames, as well as the heat. Someone could make an argument that heat lacks from a swarm of bees, but that is so inconsequential, I wouldnt think that would be an issue.


Another question. So, they have this form of art called trompe l'oeil. Could I use a Silent Image, to create a door in an archway, that has the visual picture on one side that looks exactly like it would to walk into the next room? Or would that be outside of the use of a Phantasm spell? I mean, if an artist can do something like that with paint...I suppose they would maybe instantly recognize it as a painted entryway? Hmmm....


I also thought of something else. If illusions are nothing more than the control of reflecting lights, then could I not create that door like I stated, make it transparent into a room, and then erase the images of my parties that are being seen through it, or that pit that is sitting at the door entrance?


Illusion spells are only limited by what you can think up and what your GM will allow.

Well, it's also limited by the 4 10ft Cubes + 1 10ft/level restriction.

The way I like to think of it is you can create anything you want inside those cubes. Yes, you could cover that pit to look like there is no pit. Erasing your party is a bit more tricky. You are physically there, and I would argue you would need invisibility to hide your party. But you could create an illusion of the rooms back wall just 5 feet forward and have your party stand behind it.

Or, as you said, you can create an illusion of the room however you want it on a flat plane right at the door (think of it as a tv screen) and watch the enemies barge right through it into your trap.

And, don't just think of ground based illusions. A well placed illusion of a dragon in the distance getting closer could be enough to cause certain enemies to flee.

It's all on how your GM rewards creativity. My suggestion... use sparingly as you may find your illusions becoming less effective because its starting to annoy the GM.


Dr Grecko wrote:

Illusion spells are only limited by what you can think up and what your GM will allow.

Well, it's also limited by the 4 10ft Cubes + 1 10ft/level restriction.

The way I like to think of it is you can create anything you want inside those cubes. Yes, you could cover that pit to look like there is no pit. Erasing your party is a bit more tricky. You are physically there, and I would argue you would need invisibility to hide your party. But you could create an illusion of the rooms back wall just 5 feet forward and have your party stand behind it.

Or, as you said, you can create an illusion of the room however you want it on a flat plane right at the door (think of it as a tv screen) and watch the enemies barge right through it into your trap.

And, don't just think of ground based illusions. A well placed illusion of a dragon in the distance getting closer could be enough to cause certain enemies to flee.

It's all on how your GM rewards creativity. My suggestion... use sparingly as you may find your illusions becoming less effective because its starting to annoy the GM.

Yeah, I can see how being rewarded with creativity could be very beneficial, but we have a lot of rules lawyers in our group {me being one of them a bit myself as well} and creating a dragon in the sky would only cause brief pause, if anything per the rules in my opinion. I dont even think you can cover a pit to make it look like there is no pit. You would need Illusory Wall for that because of the way Figments work. At most, I could make it look like a pit that was recently covered over with maybe planks nailed over it to create a type of floor.

So far, I am looking to create fog banks, walls of iron and stone, and spectral legions with silent image. Swarms of insects, and copies of my own character with oversized swords that fight with larger than life weapons with Minor Image, and Walls of Fire with Major Image spells.


If you have a lot of rules lawyers then you'd do best to stick with tangible effects, like the walls you mentioned. My GM would have his lesser mooks see the dragon approaching and may or may not have them flee or take cover. That kind of reaction is very dependent on how your GM plays the enemies that face you.

I disagree that a pit couldn't be covered by an illusion of the floor. As a floor is as much an 'object' as any planks would be. That being said, if the GM is being a stickler about it I like your idea of planks.. (just make sure it looks really sturdy or they may not try it)


The key thing is to set up some sort of basis of expectation between you and the GM. Define hazy terms like "interact" (for some, this includes just perceiving an illusion, for others, it does not), and so on. Perhaps even work on some house rules to clear up issues both of you aren't happy with.

Sovereign Court

8 Red Wizards, I disagree. It is an illusion that produces thermal, smell, and sound in addition to visual. It falls perfectly into the description that I mentioned. The illusion itself is placed in front of the mouth of the person in question. The heat sensation on the face, with the smell of burning flesh under their nose would cause one to think their face is melting. If they started to talk the illusion would add sounds of mumbling to complicate what is being said. Since the caster has to concentrate on the illusion they can adapt it for whatever situation arises.

The problem with Illusions is the same as the Paladin's Code. It is interpreted differently by different people. As mentioned it is best to figure out how your DM views illusions and what in their eyes make it believable.


Duskrunner1 wrote:

8 Red Wizards, I disagree. It is an illusion that produces thermal, smell, and sound in addition to visual. It falls perfectly into the description that I mentioned. The illusion itself is placed in front of the mouth of the person in question. The heat sensation on the face, with the smell of burning flesh under their nose would cause one to think their face is melting. If they started to talk the illusion would add sounds of mumbling to complicate what is being said. Since the caster has to concentrate on the illusion they can adapt it for whatever situation arises.

The problem with Illusions is the same as the Paladin's Code. It is interpreted differently by different people. As mentioned it is best to figure out how your DM views illusions and what in their eyes make it believable.

While I love the imagery behind that illusion, I'm not sure its a workable solution. For you to counteract him speaking, you would need to produce the mumbling sounds at the moment he spoke.. too soon and he's on to you, too late, same thing. You wouldn't be able to listen for him to speak because by the time you hear it, he's already spoke.

He will also get a save, and could spoil the image right there.

There's also the clause in figment magic that "Figments cannot make something seem to be something else". I've always interpreted that clause in a manner similar to: You cant make a sword look like a moving snake. I could see that being the case here too as you are making a mouth look like not a mouth. Although if you get too strict with that statement, then figments are basically broken because 'air' can certainly be defined as 'something'.

A good way around that may be: instead of creating the mouth illusion on a person. Make the whole person an illusion. That would certainly get the attention of the other witnesses without the hassle of illusion potentially backfiring on you.

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