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Can you use lay on hands on yourself while pinned?


Rules Questions

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5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

When you're pinned you can't gesture to cast spells. What about using lay on hands on yourself though? It says you need a free hand to do it, which implies gesturing somewhat. However it's not explicit.


No, because pinned limits you to verbal and mental actions.


I think the free hand is just to touch the recipient and thus I'd allow it if the one pinning you is not trying to prevent exactly things like that.
Or in other words: If you are pinned I see it as rather likely that one of your hands touched any part of you.


Does LoH require concentration? Can it be disrupted? Does it provoke?


Prawn wrote:
Does LoH require concentration? Can it be disrupted? Does it provoke?

Lay On Hands (Su)

Supernatural Abilities: "These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity."


You already brought up the relevant point - the ability states "a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability." When you're pinned, you don't have a free hand, so you can't use Lay on Hands.


I would say a Paladin can LoH on himself, even when Pinned.

Being Pinned does limit you, but you're not Helpless. And you can still take actions that doesn't require both hands, like attack.

Okay, look at it this way:

Can you cast spells while Pinned? Only certain spells (not those that use Somatic or Material Components.)

Could you cast the level 2 cleric spell Aid (with a successful Concentration check)? Yes, the Aid spell does not use Somatic or Material Components.

The Aid spell gives a bonus to a living creature touched. If I can attack while pinned, I can touch attack while pinned. If I can touch attack, I can touch allies (in range) or myself.

So yes, I would say a Paladin can LoH on himself, even when Pinned.

Shadow Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:
You already brought up the relevant point - the ability states "a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability." When you're pinned, you don't have a free hand, so you can't use Lay on Hands.

I disagree, nothing in the rules for pinned says you don't have a hand free.

Pinned wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Not being able to cast spells that have a somatic component is not the same as not having a hand free. The text specifically limits spells and spell like abilities but says nothing about supernatural abilities which is what Lay on Hands is. So nothing in the actual text of the spell suggests that LoH would not work.


The other silly thing about allowing it is, you're making the assumption the pinner is kind or stupid enough to position the pally so he can touch himself. If this worked, villains would just start pinning paladins by holding their wrists above their heads so they aren't touching themselves.

And while the "pinned" condition may not explicitly say you "have no free hands", it is strongly implied (otherwise, why couldn't you cast spells with somatic components? All that takes is one "free hand".


By virtue of his hand still existing his hand is already touching himself RumpinRufus.

Unless you want to tell me his hand isn't a part of himself.


GM Jeff wrote:

I would say a Paladin can LoH on himself, even when Pinned.

Being Pinned does limit you, but you're not Helpless. And you can still take actions that doesn't require both hands, like attack.

Okay, look at it this way:

Can you cast spells while Pinned? Only certain spells (not those that use Somatic or Material Components.)

Could you cast the level 2 cleric spell Aid (with a successful Concentration check)? Yes, the Aid spell does not use Somatic or Material Components.

The Aid spell gives a bonus to a living creature touched. If I can attack while pinned, I can touch attack while pinned. If I can touch attack, I can touch allies (in range) or myself.

So yes, I would say a Paladin can LoH on himself, even when Pinned.

The difference is that Lay on Hands requires a "free" hand. The implication is that it's not just physical contact (like a touch spell is,) but some sort of specific motion (personally I envision it requiring an open-palmed touch, as that is what it means to "lay your hand" on something.)

The fact is that it requires you to have a free hand, which you don't have when you're pinned. I would not, for example, allow a paladin being pinned by an undead to use Lay on Hands to harm it.

Shadow Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:

The other silly thing about allowing it is, you're making the assumption the pinner is kind or stupid enough to position the pally so he can touch himself. If this worked, villains would just start pinning paladins by holding their wrists above their heads so they aren't touching themselves.

And while the "pinned" condition may not explicitly say you "have no free hands", it is strongly implied (otherwise, why couldn't you cast spells with somatic components? All that takes is one "free hand".

Now you are getting into the why would they say this or that which it is impossible to prove what someone was thinking unless they chimed in. I can think of several reasons why somatic spells might be restricted though you have a hand free.

(Picture an MMA fighter sitting on your chest raining down blows while you cover your face with your hands. You would certainly not get off a spell with a somatic component but you could touch yourself to LoH)

Also your argument that villans would simply pin paladins with their hands above their heads is simply wrong because when you perform a grapple and a pin you don't get to pick and choose the position in which they are pinned.

Also as was pointed out above, and ignored, you can attack while pinned.


A Pinned creature can only take verbal or purely mental actions. Lay on Hands requires a free hand, thus it is not solely a verbal nor mental action.

- Gauss

Shadow Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:


The fact is that it requires you to have a free hand, which you don't have when you're pinned. I would not, for example, allow a paladin being pinned by an undead to use Lay on Hands to harm it.

Again you simply assert that you don't have a free hand when pinned. Please show where in the text it says you have no free hands.

Since others question that this is clearly implied it must not be clear and thus requires proof.

Shadow Lodge

Gauss wrote:

A Pinned creature can only take verbal or purely mental actions. Lay on Hands requires a free hand, thus it is not solely a verbal nor mental action.

- Gauss

You inserted the word only in there, it is not in the actual text.


PatientWolf wrote:
Gauss wrote:

A Pinned creature can only take verbal or purely mental actions. Lay on Hands requires a free hand, thus it is not solely a verbal nor mental action.

- Gauss

You inserted the word only in there, it is not in the actual text.

Wow, that's some reading.

pinned wrote:
A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions

It says the pinned creature is limited in the actions it takes, and then it explicitly lists the actions that it can take. And you're reading that as saying that the pinned creature actually isn't limited at all in the actions it can take, and the fact that the condition states you can attempt to free yourself, make verbal action, and make mental actions is just because it's fun to be redundant?


RumpinRufus: Couldnt have said it better myself. Thanks

PatientWolf: I did forget to add that it can try to free itself. So: A pinned creature can only free itself or take verbal or mental actions. Better? :)

- Gauss

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

RumpinRufus: Couldnt have said it better myself. Thanks

PatientWolf: I did forget to add that it can try to free itself. So: A pinned creature can only free itself or take verbal or mental actions. Better? :)

- Gauss

Lay On Hands is a supernatural ability.

Using a supernatural ability is a mental action.

You may take mental actions while pinned.

Lay On Hands requires the paladin to touch the recipient. In order to touch another creature you need a free hand. This does not apply when you are the target of your own ability, as you are always in contact with yourself.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Gauss wrote:

RumpinRufus: Couldnt have said it better myself. Thanks

PatientWolf: I did forget to add that it can try to free itself. So: A pinned creature can only free itself or take verbal or mental actions. Better? :)

- Gauss

Lay On Hands is a supernatural ability.

Using a supernatural ability is a mental action.

You may take mental actions while pinned.

Lay On Hands requires the paladin to touch the recipient. In order to touch another creature you need a free hand. This does not apply when you are the target of your own ability, as you are always in contact with yourself.

You don't need a free hand to touch another creature, you can use any part of your body. Lay on Hands cannot be delivered with your foot like any other touch attack could be. It never says that Lay on Hands does not require a free hand when you use it on yourself, it only says using the ability requires a free hand (no exceptions.)


Again, nothing in Pinned says you don't have a free hand.

The only thing that applies is that a pinned creature is still grappled and grappled says creatures cannot take actions that require two hands to perform.

Pinned does not expand on this. In fact, you could say both of your hands are free. "I drop everything because I want both hands free to negate the -4 penalty to my combat maneuver roll when grappling."


You maybe right, but let's talk about it:

Pinned

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

So on the one hand it says you can't move, but on the other hand, it says you can attempt a CMB or Escape Artist check to try and break free, and those must involve movement. It certainly isn't a struggle of mental will. It also says you can cast spells with a concentration check, which presumably involves some movement.

Under Paladin, it says, "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."

This might mean you can't have a weapon in both hands. And the free here might mean "empty." Like you need a hand empty of a weapon or shield etc.

At the very least, if it is possible to cast a spell with a concentration check, it should be possible to LoH with a concentration check.

As a DM, I'd allow a pinned Paladin to LoH. I'd make him roll to add tension, but I'd let him do it.

Silver Crusade

RumpinRufus wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Gauss wrote:

RumpinRufus: Couldnt have said it better myself. Thanks

PatientWolf: I did forget to add that it can try to free itself. So: A pinned creature can only free itself or take verbal or mental actions. Better? :)

- Gauss

Lay On Hands is a supernatural ability.

Using a supernatural ability is a mental action.

You may take mental actions while pinned.

Lay On Hands requires the paladin to touch the recipient. In order to touch another creature you need a free hand. This does not apply when you are the target of your own ability, as you are always in contact with yourself.

You don't need a free hand to touch another creature, you can use any part of your body. Lay on Hands cannot be delivered with your foot like any other touch attack could be. It never says that Lay on Hands does not require a free hand when you use it on yourself, it only says using the ability requires a free hand (no exceptions.)

Here is where we disagree.

The sentence about requiring a free hand actually says:-

Lay On Hands wrote:
Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability

It's saying that you only need one hand even though the name of the ability implies two. The only reason you even need one hand is to actually satisfy the 'touch' range; it's not intended to make it more difficult to use a touch range ability on yourself.


A pinned creature is allowed to do three things and three things only. Escape, verbal actions, and mental actions. Normal supernatural actions are mental actions, the LoH wording overrides this by declaring you must have a free hand. Thus, since LoH requires an action that is not just mental it cannot be used while pinned

I can see the argument where people state that you should be able to touch yourself while pinned since you are always in contact with yourself. However, that is not what Lay on Hands states. It states you need one free hand to use this ability. Being pinned does not allow any action other than escape, verbal, or mental. Thus, touching someone or yourself is a physical act and not covered.

This is very similar to the debates regarding Channel Energy and being pinned. You cannot present your holy symbol while pinned either.

- Gauss


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The only reason you even need one hand is to actually satisfy the 'touch' range;

Lay On Hands (Su): "a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch."

"By touch" also includes the Paladin healing her own wounds.

A paladin needs one free hand to use the ability. There's no exception for when the paladin targets herself.


Prawn wrote:

It also says you can cast spells with a concentration check, which presumably involves some movement.

At the very least, if it is possible to cast a spell with a concentration check, it should be possible to LoH with a concentration check.

That is for spells without somatic components. The text you quoted says, "cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component", full stop.

Using Lay on Hands is akin to casting a spell with somatic components - both require a free hand, and casting spells with somatic components is explicitly disallowed.


Prawn wrote:


So on the one hand it says you can't move, but on the other hand, it says you can attempt a CMB or Escape Artist check to try and break free, and those must involve movement. It certainly isn't a struggle of mental will. It also says you can cast spells with a concentration check, which presumably involves some movement.

"A pinned creature cannot move" is slightly unclear. Are we talking about moving from one square to other? Move actions? Or physically, you can't move and are stone still?

I believe it's you can't move from one square to another. Because usually, if it's move actions, it will say "move actions". And, I don't think it means you can't move and are stone still, because if you look at other conditions, like grappled, it says "you cannot move". But you can escape, grapple, attack, make combat maneuvers, take actions that doesn't require both hands...


Grick wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The only reason you even need one hand is to actually satisfy the 'touch' range;

Lay On Hands (Su): "a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch."

"By touch" also includes the Paladin healing her own wounds.

A paladin needs one free hand to use the ability. There's no exception for when the paladin targets herself.

Except my hand is already touching me.

May I make a suggestion? Do a search for paladin using lay on hands on himself as that topic has been covered already too and gets down to the crux of the matter.

But I would like to point out simply having a touch component doesn't mean the supernatural ability has a somatic component. After all at that point any creature with a touch supernatural ability couldn't use it in a grapple including attack supernatural abilities.


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As a wrestler throughout ages 5-22, I can tell you that being pinned is VERY restrictive.

Most pinners will attempt to keep your hands from being able to get near each other, as it is a much less powerful action with 1 hand than with 2 together.

Attempting to break out of a pin is generally with reversal of centers of gravity. Bridging on your head while using your legs for momentum.

I would absolutely rule that the Paladin CANNOT LoH theirselves whilst pinned. Especially since the Pinned condition specifically says you can't move and you are tightly bound, and the actions listed specifically negate any spell (or spell-like ability and by extension supernatural abilities) that require a somatic component, i.e. moving a free hand to touch yourself with.

If they were Tied Up, however, I probably WOULD allow them to LoH.

Shadow Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Gauss wrote:

A Pinned creature can only take verbal or purely mental actions. Lay on Hands requires a free hand, thus it is not solely a verbal nor mental action.

- Gauss

You inserted the word only in there, it is not in the actual text.

Wow, that's some reading.

pinned wrote:
A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions
It says the pinned creature is limited in the actions it takes, and then it explicitly lists the actions that it can take. And you're reading that as saying that the pinned creature actually isn't limited at all in the actions it can take, and the fact that the condition states you can attempt to free yourself, make verbal action, and make mental actions is just because it's fun to be redundant?

Lets take another look:

Pinned wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself,usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Notice the use of the word usually with regard to combat maneuvers and Escape Artist checks. So not every action that can be taken is explicitly listed. Rather I read it as the actions that are limited in some way are explicitly stated. It explicitly states you can't move. Hmmmm...it seems to me that being unable to move qualifies as your actions being limited. It says you can't cast spells with somatic components. Hmmm...that seems to qualify for the definition of being limited in your actions. You are reading as if it says "A pinned creature is limited in the actions it may take to only the following:"

Silver Crusade

That line in LoH about only requiring one hand is saying that you don't need two, not that you need one even if you don't normally need any free hand to touch yourself!

To the wrestler; can I close my fist when pinned? Is one of my fingers touching any one of my other fingers? I am touching myself at all times for the purpose of targetting myself with abilities that have a range of 'touch'!


Pendin Fust wrote:

As a wrestler throughout ages 5-22, I can tell you that being pinned is VERY restrictive.

Most pinners will attempt to keep your hands from being able to get near each other, as it is a much less powerful action with 1 hand than with 2 together.

Attempting to break out of a pin is generally with reversal of centers of gravity. Bridging on your head while using your legs for momentum.

I would absolutely rule that the Paladin CANNOT LoH theirselves whilst pinned. Especially since the Pinned condition specifically says you can't move and you are tightly bound, and the actions listed specifically negate any spell (or spell-like ability and by extension supernatural abilities) that require a somatic component, i.e. moving a free hand to touch yourself with.

If they were Tied Up, however, I probably WOULD allow them to LoH.

That's stupid since being tied up means having the pinned condition...

"You can't do it while pinned, but you can do it while pinned."


PatientWolf:

It is explicit on what it states as actions you can perform.
Action 1: Free yourself (the means is variable)
Action 2: Verbal actions
Action 3: Mental actions

Usually applies to the means to free yourself, not the listing that freeing yourself is one of the actions you can perform.

- Gauss


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

That line in LoH about only requiring one hand is saying that you don't need two, not that you need one even if you don't normally need any free hand to touch yourself!

To the wrestler; can I close my fist when pinned? Is one of my fingers touching any one of my other fingers? I am touching myself at all times for the purpose of targetting myself with abilities that have a range of 'touch'!

You are touching yourself, but you are not laying your hand on yourself.

Thematically, a paladin using Lay on Hands is performing an open-palmed touch. If he cannot touch himself with an open palm, he can not perform Lay on Hands himself.

By the rules, it says a paladin needs a free hand. It doesn't say that he doesn't need two free hands, it says he needs a free hand. It is unlike other touch abilities, which can be delivered with any body part - it specifically requires a free hand.

Cheliax

Abraham spalding wrote:
Grick wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The only reason you even need one hand is to actually satisfy the 'touch' range;

Lay On Hands (Su): "a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch."

"By touch" also includes the Paladin healing her own wounds.

A paladin needs one free hand to use the ability. There's no exception for when the paladin targets herself.

Except my hand is already touching me.

May I make a suggestion? Do a search for paladin using lay on hands on himself as that topic has been covered already too and gets down to the crux of the matter.

But I would like to point out simply having a touch component doesn't mean the supernatural ability has a somatic component. After all at that point any creature with a touch supernatural ability couldn't use it in a grapple including attack supernatural abilities.

No. You can use somatic components and attack in a Grapple. You can't do either in a Pin. Having a free hand is obviously somatic and a physical action. You can only do verbal, mental, or escape actions in a Pin. It seems quite clear a Paladin can't Lay on Hands in a Pin.

In a Grapple, sure.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
That line in LoH about only requiring one hand is saying that you don't need two, not that you need one even if you don't normally need any free hand to touch yourself!

There's nothing that says you don't need a free hand to touch yourself.

The ability is specific. It says you need a free hand to use it. Yes, that can mean that you don't need two hands. But no, it can't mean that you don't need any hands.

Silver Crusade

Grick wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
That line in LoH about only requiring one hand is saying that you don't need two, not that you need one even if you don't normally need any free hand to touch yourself!

There's nothing that says you don't need a free hand to touch yourself.

The ability is specific. It says you need a free hand to use it. Yes, that can mean that you don't need two hands. But no, it can't mean that you don't need any hands.

It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

The relevant part of LoH as, '...a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch'. To adjudicate this we use the rules for using touch-range abilities:-

Touch Spells in Combat wrote:
You can automatically...use the spell on yourself.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Abraham spalding wrote:
May I make a suggestion? Do a search for paladin using lay on hands on himself as that topic has been covered already too and gets down to the crux of the matter.

OK.

Result 1: Lay on Hands. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 2: Does Paladin need an empty hand to Lay on Hands? Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 3: Paladin Lay on Hands a Channel Energy. Does not address hands.

Result 4: Lay on Hands, free hand? Consensus: Free hand required. House rules suggested.

Result 5: Channeling and Lay on Hands. Does not address hands.

Result 6: Two Weapon Fighting Paladin and Lay on Hands. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 7: Lay on hands with two weapons. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 8: Lay on Hands + Fey Foundling. Does not address hands.

Result 9: Lay on Hands can only be used on allies? Does not address hands.

Result 10: Lay on hands on self twice per round? Does not address hands.

Maybe instead, if you had something specific in mind, you could just tell me?

Shadow Lodge

Gauss wrote:

PatientWolf:

It is explicit on what it states as actions you can perform.
Action 1: Free yourself (the means is variable)
Action 2: Verbal actions
Action 3: Mental actions

Usually applies to the means to free yourself, not the listing that freeing yourself is one of the actions you can perform.

- Gauss

So you are trying to tell me you can throw elbows, head butts or other attacks, in order to free yourself of course, but you can't touch yourself with one of your hands?


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Yup, I'm agreeing with Malachi here. A pinned Paladin can use Lay on Hands on himself.

Me: I use Lay on Hands on myself.

RAW: Any questions LoH?
LoH: Do you have a free hand?
Me: Yes.
LoH: Can you touch the target?
Me: Yes.
LoH: I'm good.

RAW: Pinned?
Pinned: How did you use Lay on Hands?
Me: It's a Supernatural ability.
Pinned: A mental action?
Me: Yes.
Pinned: And you physically have to touch your target?
Me: Yes, but I'm always touching myself.

*guffaws of laughter*

Pinned: Okay, I'm good too.

RAW: You use Lay on Hands on yourself.

Shadow Lodge

Grick wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
May I make a suggestion? Do a search for paladin using lay on hands on himself as that topic has been covered already too and gets down to the crux of the matter.

OK.

Result 1: Lay on Hands. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 2: Does Paladin need an empty hand to Lay on Hands? Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 3: Paladin Lay on Hands a Channel Energy. Does not address hands.

Result 4: Lay on Hands, free hand? Consensus: Free hand required. House rules suggested.

Result 5: Channeling and Lay on Hands. Does not address hands.

Result 6: Two Weapon Fighting Paladin and Lay on Hands. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 7: Lay on hands with two weapons. Consensus: Free hand required.

Result 8: Lay on Hands + Fey Foundling. Does not address hands.

Result 9: Lay on Hands can only be used on allies? Does not address hands.

Result 10: Lay on hands on self twice per round? Does not address hands.

Maybe instead, if you had something specific in mind, you could just tell me?

Grick,

You haven't really chimed in on this particular question but from my observances you are usually pretty spot on with the rules. Do you believe that being pinned means you don't have the free hand with which to LoH?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

I want to keep a link to this quote for all time.

"So I need two?"
"No, you only need one."
"Oh good, that means I don't need any."

Shadow Lodge

GM Jeff wrote:

Yup, I'm agreeing with Malachi here. A pinned Paladin can use Lay on Hands on himself.

Me: I use Lay on Hands on myself.

RAW: Any questions LoH?
LoH: Do you have a free hand?
Me: Yes.
LoH: Can you touch the target?
Me: Yes.
LoH: I'm good.

RAW: Pinned?
Pinned: How did you use Lay on Hands?
Me: It's a Supernatural ability.
Pinned: A mental action?
Me: Yes.
Pinned: And you physically have to touch your target?
Me: Yes, but I'm always touching myself.

*guffaws of laughter*

Pinned: Okay, I'm good too.

RAW: You use Lay on Hands on yourself.

But can you lay hands on a grappled succubus :D


But again, a free hand doesn't have to mean not restricted, it could mean empty.

Does that mean that Paladins have to have hands? If an intelligent creature like a unicorn or a couatl took Paladin levels, would you tell them they couldn't LoH because they didn't have hands?

I don't think so. Lay on hands doesn't have to have such a literal meaning.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

Lay On Hands (Su): "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."

Only needs one free hand means you need one free hand. The number of free hands you need is "one". "One" is the number of free hands. Not two or three or four but one! One hand, one LoH! Zero hands, ZERO LOH!

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
To adjudicate this we use the rules for using touch-range abilities

"touch-range abilities" eh? Oh, you mean "Touch Spells in Combat"? Which is specifically referring to spells that have a range of touch?

Lay on Hands is not a spell. It's not even Spell-like. You can't hold the charge, you can't deliver it via unarmed strike, and while you can touch yourself (or an ally) without an attack roll, you still have to have one hand free to do so.


PatientWolf:

I do not see where I said you can make attacks while pinned. I was indicating that the list of means to escape is not comprehensive. Means to escape listed: Escape Artist and CM check to escape. There is at least one other method I can think of: Shift (teleportation subschool ability). There are probably others. 'Usually' indicates that you can find others. It does not indicate that the others are attacks.

- Gauss

Shadow Lodge

Grick wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

Lay On Hands (Su): "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."

Only needs one free hand means you need one free hand. The number of free hands you need is "one". "One" is the number of free hands. Not two or three or four but one! One hand, one LoH! Zero hands, ZERO LOH!

Oh for goodness sake. The thread about a devil baleful polymorphed into a bunny with massive strength, DR and spell like abilities didn't get a Monty Python reference but this one does?!? LoL

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

PatientWolf wrote:
Grick wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

Lay On Hands (Su): "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."

Only needs one free hand means you need one free hand. The number of free hands you need is "one". "One" is the number of free hands. Not two or three or four but one! One hand, one LoH! Zero hands, ZERO LOH!

Oh for goodness sake. The thread about a devil baleful polymorphed into a bunny with massive strength, DR and spell like abilities didn't get a Monty Python reference but this one does?!? LoL

That's not Monty Python, that's Fifth Element. ;)

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Grick wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

Lay On Hands (Su): "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."

Only needs one free hand means you need one free hand. The number of free hands you need is "one". "One" is the number of free hands. Not two or three or four but one! One hand, one LoH! Zero hands, ZERO LOH!

Oh for goodness sake. The thread about a devil baleful polymorphed into a bunny with massive strength, DR and spell like abilities didn't get a Monty Python reference but this one does?!? LoL
That's not Monty Python, that's Fifth Element. ;)

I thought he was quoting from the scene where they were doing the countdown for the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

Shadow Lodge

Gauss wrote:

PatientWolf:

I do not see where I said you can make attacks while pinned. I was indicating that the list of means to escape is not comprehensive. Means to escape listed: Escape Artist and CM check to escape. There is at least one other method I can think of: Shift (teleportation subschool ability). There are probably others. 'Usually' indicates that you can find others. It does not indicate that the others are attacks.

- Gauss

The issue is that they sure left that vague when spelling out explicitly every other action you can take. My contention is that the list is explicitly stating the activities that are limited. Again you think that someone can wiggle, squirm, and generally try to get out of the pin but absolutely couldn't possibly even lay a finger on themselves during the processes.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It does not say you need a free hand to use it! It says you only need one hand when the name implies that you would need two!

I want to keep a link to this quote for all time.

"So I need two?"
"No, you only need one."
"Oh good, that means I don't need any."

Then, to make you even happier, I'll confidently assert that a paladin does not need to even have hands in order to use LoH, even on another creature; he just has to touch another creature, and he always counts as being in contact with himself.

Neither touch spells nor the paladin class is restricted to those creatures with hands. Spells with somatic components may be cast by handless creatures, they use other body parts to cast them if they are written up as being spell-casting creatures. Creatures without hands may use touch-range supernatural abilities (like LoH). The line about only needing one hand not two is essentially flavour text; it's not a limitation on using LoH, it's is making sure that even though it's called 'Lay On Hands (plural) that the DM shouldn't require you to drop everything you are holding to use it!

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