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Which class benefits most from Natural Attacks


Advice

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Assuming a Catfolk with claw/claw/bite and an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which actual class would benefit most from those natural attacks?

I can see potential for unarmed fighter, possibly monk, and definitely druid, but what other tricks can you folks pull out of your hats?

I love you all for your "outside-the-box" thinking that sometimes evades my logical sensibilities....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ranger has natural weapons combat style in the APG, lets you get some nice feats without having all the prerequisites.

Or go barbarian and take lesser fiend totem for a gore attack as well, plus the nice boost to damage while raging. Especially at lower levels the 4 attacks while full attacking will give you a very nice damage output.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, both very nice options. I've heard and read that anything using natural attacks tends to get lacking at higher levels...

I am very interested in a Barbarian with 4 natural primary attacks though...


2 lvs barbarian for the extra attack while raging, then rest ninja (or vivisectionist alchemist) for sneak attack. You can get sneak on every attack that hits.

Barry Armstrong wrote:
I've heard and read that anything using natural attacks tends to get lacking at higher levels...

That is quite possible. For natural attacks to bypass any type of dr they require a much bigger investment than any manufactured weapon would. And if you're a full bab class, you will be getting more attacks and higher damage using a manufactured weapon, rather than using your natural attacks (unless you can get 4 of them). But if you're a 3/4 bab class, you will never get more than 3 attacks with a manufactured weapon, so the natural attacks may look more attractive in comparison.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, you won't have the iteratives at higher levels, but with 4 attacks from level 2 up (I don't know if they are all primary, but at least three are) it's not too bad. Just make sure to pile on as much static damage as possible since the damage dice aren't that big. AoMF is a must, and finding a friendly druid to cast magic fang on you is a nice bonus. Talk to your GM about getting access to improved nat attack. If you go totem warrior, you can also take the beast totem rage powers and eventually get pounce; there's nothing like full attacking on a charge

Shadow Lodge

Rogue or better yet vivisectionist alchemist. Three attacks at your full bonus + sneak attack can be pretty sweet.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Barbarian can gain extra Natural Attacks, and eventually get Pounce.


Any full BAB class, when using a no-hands weapon as primary weapon and the natural attacks as bonus.
For example use a dwarven boulder helmet as your weapon so you get 4 attacks at level 1.
As a paladin for example you get your full smite bonus on every attack. So all 4 attacks would be stronger.
As a ranger you get your favorite enemy bonus etc.


Catfolk rogue can get a vicious claws talent that increase sneak attack die to 1d8 when striking with claws.


Well, some classes require you to have your off hand free. Freehand fighter might work well with natural attacks. They are also good for grappling builds, since they can not only be used in a grapple, but also allow them to move directly from normal melee without having to drop a weapon. Ranged and reach based builds might also enjoy them, since it allows them to threaten right around them (though gauntlets do the same thing).

Maybe Magus? I mean, I'm pretty sure you can use natural weapons for things like spell strike, and the fact that all your attacks have that -2 penalty with spell combat does not matter as much when they all do full bab. A magus could easily have a total of 5 attacks per round at level 20 if they also used that haste arcana.

Paladins? Yeah, I've heard that some go with a TWF to get the most out of their smite ability. Combined with a multiattack and a manufactured weapon later on, I can see them doing well. Combined, it would be 6 attacks (4 of which are hitting at 15+ bab), which more than compares to TWF. This would be much less feat intensive than TWF too. They could also just take their one handed weapon and wield it two handed when they aren't full attacking (what is the best one handed weapon? Bastard Sword?). It would definitely be interesting to see a paladin that bites evil's face off. This is assuming you aren't worshiping that CE deity to get Mother's teeth for your bite attack. I guess the same would go for antipaladins.


Now that flurry has been fixed Monks. Also anyone with extra damage sources like SA.

My fav is a mix of the two. One lvl dip in MoMS monk then rest ninja Take the first two of the boar style chain with the monk dip. Feral combat feat, weapon finesse feat and a +1 agile amulet of might fist and you have a pretty dang good start there.

Dex to hit and damage, 3 claw attacks, SA damage on them and if you hit with at least two then 2d6 of bleed damage and can intimidate as a free action if you like.

Seems like a pretty nice build.


Now that I look into it it seems feral combat is the key to all kinds of interesting NA builds. Lets look at some feats that work with improved unarmed strike and hence with feral combat.

Hex strike
Revelation Strike
Sorcerous Strike

Hex strike jumps out at me first with a Hexcrafter magus. There has got to be all sorts of fun to be had here.

Revelation Strike. Melee Oracle's are solid to start with. I am sure there must be some revelation's that would go nicely as a on hit effect.

Sorcerous Strike. Sorcadin Eldrich knight anyone? This one might take a bit to get off the ground but seems like there is feasible options here.

Sczarni

lol how's that work out, "now that flurry is fixed" I take a archetype that doesn't get flurry!


humm correct. Silly me. Make that straight monk or another archetype and take the first step of boar style (the important one.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On a related note, I want to see if all this is RAW legal:

Level 15 Catfolk Rogue (Scout) with 14 STR, 24 Dex, 14 WIS, 16 CHA
Traits:Adopted, Tusked
Racial Traits: Cat's Claws, Sprinter
Feats: Catfolk Exemplar (Sharp Claws), Weapon Finesse (Claws), Imp Nat Atk (Claws), Imp Nat Atk (Bite), Nimble Striker, Claw Pounce, Power Attack, Rending Claws
Talents: Vicious Claws, Ki Pool (2pts), Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Ninja Trick (Invisible Blade), Crippling Strike, Pressure Points, Bleeding Attack
Items: Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists +3

Actions on First Round:

Make a Scout's Charge and Claw Pounce from 100ft away, declaring Power Attack. Inbetween the two claw attacks, use a swift action and spend 1 Ki point to Vanish and get sneak attack on the other claw.

Attack:

+21 (BAB+DEX+Charge+AoMF-PA) [No loss of AC due to Nimble Striker] to each claw

Damage:

First Claw = 9d8 (Claw, SA) + 22 (Bleed, PA, DEX, AoMF) + 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]

Second Claw = 9d8 (Claw, SA) + 1d6 (Rend) + 14 (PA, DEX, AoMF) + 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]

Actions on subsequent rounds till Ki Pool runs out:

Spend 1 Ki point to Vanish, declare full-attack action

Attack:

+19 (BAB+DEX+AoMF-PA) to primary claws, +14 (BAB-5+DEX+AoMF-PA) to bite

Damage:

First Claw = 9d8 (Claw, SA) + 22 (Bleed, PA, DEX, AoMF) + 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]

Second Claw = 9d8 (Claw, SA) + 1d6 (Rend) + 14 (PA, DEX, AoMF) + 3 STR dmg (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]

Bite = 9d6 (Bite, SA) + 14 (PA, DEX, AoMF) + 3 STR (or 2 STR + 1 DEX) [PP, CS]

Is this all accurate? Because if so, that's some pretty sick damage.


I am pretty sure SA is precision damage but what does that matter? As far as I know being precision damage does not mean it can not work with other precision damage. As long as they are not the same source it is just fine unless there is something big I am missing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stome wrote:
I am pretty sure SA is precision damage but what does that matter? As far as I know being precision damage does not mean it can not work with other precision damage. As long as they are not the same source it is just fine unless there is something big I am missing.

I had thought that like bonuses do not stack...


Precision damage is a damage type not a bonus. Much like slashing damage or fire damage.

A magus could use a flaming weapon and deliver a fire spell with spellstrike and there is no problem as they are from different sources. The same applies here. Though most of the time SA stacks as well just because most other classes that provide SA have text on them stacking.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stome wrote:

Precision damage is a damage type not a bonus. Much like slashing damage or fire damage.

A magus could use a flaming weapon and deliver a fire spell with spellstrike and there is no problem as they are from different sources. The same applies here. Though most of the time SA stacks as well just because most other classes that provide SA have text on them stacking.

My bad. You're right. Thanks for clarifying.

Can anyone beat the damage output of that rogue build above using a Ranger or a Barbarian Build?

Because that's some pretty vicious damage if I'm getting SA on every attack by using Invisible Blade...


The best build I've come up with, is..

Monk or Unarmed fighter (for dragon style, and boar shred, moms will get you dragon ferocity and the 2nd "boar" one for 2d6 bleed on every full attack you make.)

Ranger for rending claws and natural attack feats you might not be able toget anywhere else. (counds as prereq for "Improved Rend") Tracking and keen scent have good synergy too.

Scout (for scout's charge and claw pounce)

I'mpretty sure all the damage stacks. Ill have to leave it to someone else to post a build and actual dpr though, sorry.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Can anyone beat the damage output of that rogue build above using a Ranger or a Barbarian Build?

I don't know about Ranger or Barbarian, but I've personally outdone that damage output before with a natural attacking Dragon Disciple.

Assuming all of your attacks hit, you were averaging about 174 damage. It's not bad, in fact I'd happily welcome this party member, but I know it can get higher.

At level 16, my natural attacking Dragon Disciple had a mean average damage over 400. Form of the Dragon giving you 7 natural attacks certainly changes the game. Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp when you get +1 damage for electricity also is a nice +67 damage bonus. Throw in some Paladin levels; Smite will make you happy as well when you attack 7 times.


GrenMeera wrote:


I don't know about Ranger or Barbarian, but I've personally outdone that damage output before with a natural attacking Dragon Disciple.

Assuming all of your attacks hit, you were averaging about 174 damage. It's not bad, in fact I'd happily welcome this party member, but I know it can get higher.

At level 16, my natural attacking Dragon Disciple had a mean average damage over 400. Form of the Dragon giving you 7 natural attacks certainly changes the game. Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp when you get +1 damage for electricity also is a nice +67 damage bonus. Throw in some Paladin levels; Smite will make you happy as well when you attack 7 times.

Do you have a build of this? It's something I'd like to see.

Only asking because Form of the Dragon I gives 5 attacks, FotD II & III both give 6. You obviously gain the additional bite attack from Dragon's Bite along with his 2 claw attacks from the Draconic Bloodline Power. Are you counting these as well as Dragon Form II (Highest Dragon Disciple goes sadly), if so, it would be 6(Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail)+3(Bite, Claw, Claw)=9. Seems like they would stack as they are all primary attacks.

The Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp you mentioned deals (5d6+5d6(Intesified)+5d6(Empowered) 15d6 averaging 52 damage for the first attack.

Just from what you mentioned, it's a pretty good build. One that I wouldn't mind trying out.

Throw on a monks robe, Lead Blades and Strong Jaws and you'll do colossal damage with your 9 attacks (I believe).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ed-Zero >>

I don't have a build handy at the moment, but it was fairly straightforward Blue Dragon based Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline. I went caster straight through with Sorcerer 5/DD 10/Pld 1 by the time the game ended, but I have heard of all forms of variance to this, and you'll get nearly the same results.

You lose your normal primary Claw, Claw, Bite when transformed. Typical rules of any transmutation (polymorph) lay this out, so the base number of attacks is 6. However, it is an arcane caster, and you should have NO problem getting Haste. That's why I stated 7 attacks.

Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal can earn you a ton of extra strength as well as additional damage dice to your claws. Stack this with Robe of Arcane Heritage for maximum effect. Choosing Strength Belts and Strength as a primary stat to receive bonuses at level gains, I ended with about ~40 Strength while transformed. With an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, I recall having an estimated +30 on my primary attacks before really buffing or flanking.

Now, the fun part is choosing Spell Perfection: Shocking Grasp. This, stacked alongside Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, allows you to cast the Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp as a swift level 3 spell.

As for the damage, you forget that Sorcerer's have Bloodline Arcana, which grants +1 damage on every damage die with the dragon's type. This means 10d6+10 is the actual results of an Intensified Shocking Grasp, so Empowered that equals ~67 as the mean average.


Stome wrote:
Now that flurry has been fixed Monks. Also anyone with extra damage sources like SA.

Aren't Natural Attacks incompatible with FoB?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Aren't Natural Attacks incompatible with FoB?

That was true until the feat Feral Combat Training.


Rynjin wrote:
Stome wrote:
Now that flurry has been fixed Monks. Also anyone with extra damage sources like SA.
Aren't Natural Attacks incompatible with FoB?

Feral combat training allows you to flurry with the selected natural attack.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Stome wrote:
Now that flurry has been fixed Monks. Also anyone with extra damage sources like SA.
Aren't Natural Attacks incompatible with FoB?

Feral Combat Training feat makes it happen.


just curious but where does the catfolk get a bite attack from? I see the claws but what about the bite?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kolokotroni wrote:
just curious but where does the catfolk get a bite attack from? I see the claws but what about the bite?

In my build, I list taking the traits "Adopted" and "Tusked". Which gives any race a 1d4 bite attack.


Oh, that's pretty cool then.


do you mean toothy? I am not familiar with the trait tusked. And toothy cant be taken using the adopted trait. Racial Traits (what your race gives you) and traits that are tied to race (also annoyingly called ratial traits) are not the same thing.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Tusked is not Toothy.

Tusked is from Orcs of Golarion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, recap of viable class builds (and a very interesting list) so far:

Monk with Feral Combat Training

Dragon Disciple with access to Haste

Ranger with Natural Weapons Style

Barbarian with Fiend Totem Rage Powers

Rogue with Scout/Claw Pounce


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Tusked is not Toothy.

Tusked is from Orcs of Golarion.

So tusked is an actual race trait not an alternate racial trait that appears in orcs of golarion?


GrenMeera wrote:

Ed-Zero >>

I don't have a build handy at the moment, but it was fairly straightforward Blue Dragon based Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline. I went caster straight through with Sorcerer 5/DD 10/Pld 1 by the time the game ended, but I have heard of all forms of variance to this, and you'll get nearly the same results.

You lose your normal primary Claw, Claw, Bite when transformed. Typical rules of any transmutation (polymorph) lay this out, so the base number of attacks is 6. However, it is an arcane caster, and you should have NO problem getting Haste. That's why I stated 7 attacks.

Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal can earn you a ton of extra strength as well as additional damage dice to your claws. Stack this with Robe of Arcane Heritage for maximum effect. Choosing Strength Belts and Strength as a primary stat to receive bonuses at level gains, I ended with about ~40 Strength while transformed. With an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, I recall having an estimated +30 on my primary attacks before really buffing or flanking.

Now, the fun part is choosing Spell Perfection: Shocking Grasp. This, stacked alongside Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, allows you to cast the Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp as a swift level 3 spell.

As for the damage, you forget that Sorcerer's have Bloodline Arcana, which grants +1 damage on every damage die with the dragon's type. This means 10d6+10 is the actual results of an Intensified Shocking Grasp, so Empowered that equals ~67 as the mean average.

That's beautiful. Definitely something that I would play. Thanks for going more in depth with it, I appreciate it. :)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Kolokotroni wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Tusked is not Toothy.

Tusked is from Orcs of Golarion.

So tusked is an actual race trait not an alternate racial trait that appears in orcs of golarion?

Yes.

Cheliax

GrenMeera wrote:
I don't have a build handy at the moment, but it was fairly straightforward Blue Dragon based Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline. I went caster straight through with Sorcerer 5/DD 10/Pld 1 by the time the game ended, but I have heard of all forms of variance to this, and you'll get nearly the same results.

Can you give me the AC on this build? Or just the entire build? It sounds pretty awesome.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Tusked is not Toothy.

Tusked is from Orcs of Golarion.

So tusked is an actual race trait not an alternate racial trait that appears in orcs of golarion?
Yes.

Yep. Here it is:

Orcs of Golarion wrote:

Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium

characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite
attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

Although I have heard and read that it's supposed to be a primary attack, the text here suggests secondary, since when used in a full-attack action, it's BAB-5 and not full BAB. Any clarity on that one?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kiinyan wrote:
GrenMeera wrote:
I don't have a build handy at the moment, but it was fairly straightforward Blue Dragon based Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline. I went caster straight through with Sorcerer 5/DD 10/Pld 1 by the time the game ended, but I have heard of all forms of variance to this, and you'll get nearly the same results.
Can you give me the AC on this build? Or just the entire build? It sounds pretty awesome.

Concur, wanting to see more of this, although I'd probably go with Kobold instead of Catfolk while building it. Still has the same possibilities.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, technically they all want Haste, but yeah sounds right.

Also, the best description I have of how powerful a Dragon Disciple can be:

Kingmaker Spoiler:

My party all failed the fear aura of Ilthuliak, except for the Cleric. He couldn't hit the 48 AC and just kept full round attacking and missing (Yeah, leave him be. Not everybody is using their best options). We came buffed as we could however, so I certainly used my party for that aspect.

Otherwise I solo'd this dragon. Not only did the natural attacking Dragon Disciple solo it (with party's buffs they still get some credit), but it was a no-contest. The spell resistance cut my DR down a bit, but he was almost dead after the first round of me pummeling him. I beat the living hell out of Ilthuliak for daring to be an evil dragon in my Paladin-y Kingly dragon presence.

Kiinyan wrote:
Can you give me the AC on this build? Or just the entire build? It sounds pretty awesome.

I've been playing D&D (and other games) for 20+ years now and this character was in my top 10, so yes it was very awesome. ^.^

As I said earlier, I don't have the full build on me now and unfortunately it might take awhile to get it. AC was not SUPER impressive, but it wasn't bad either. Dragon Disciple gets natural armor and that's a boon. Also, I rolled very well on my hit dice, and having a D12 meant that I was a bit beefy and hard to kill regardless. I think my AC was mid 40s, but I am very fuzzy about this particular aspect.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Barry Armstrong wrote:


Yep. Here it is:

Orcs of Golarion wrote:

Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium

characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite
attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

Although I have heard and read that it's supposed to be a primary attack, the text here suggests secondary, since when used in a full-attack action, it's BAB-5 and not full BAB. Any clarity on that one?

Bites are default primary according to RAW.

Unless something calls out the bite as secondary, it's not.


Yeah, you can't very well full attack with only a bite (just do a standard and a move instead), and the game generally assumes you will not have any other natural attacks on hand. That was likely a way of mentioning that all natural attacks are treated as secondary when you use weapons.

Plus, any natural attack would be treated as primary if they are your only natural attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Err, would a Kobold Barbarian be able to claw, claw, bite, gore, tail slap if he somehow qualified for all the abilities at level 2?

Adopted, Tusked traits, Tail Terror feat, Lesser Fiend Totem rage power, and....somehow claw attacks....someone help me get natural claw attacks as a level 2 barbarian.....(wheels spinning)....


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Bites are default primary according to RAW.

Unless something calls out the bite as secondary, it's not.

So, even though it doesn't outright say it, the bite attack gained through Tusked is primary, but doesn't use full BAB, it uses secondary BAB. That doesn't make any sense, but I guess it's RAW.

lemeres wrote:

Yeah, you can't very well full attack with only a bite (just do a standard and a move instead), and the game generally assumes you will not have any other natural attacks on hand. That was likely a way of mentioning that all natural attacks are treated as secondary when you use weapons.

Plus, any natural attack would be treated as primary if they are your only natural attack.

Right, but it wouldn't be. I'd also have primary claws.


I was just commenting on whether the rules suggested it was always secondary, or just secondary when used with a manufactured weapon. As Blackbloodtroll said, they are usually primary.

I am probably getting into a weird habit of addressing the rules rather than the topic at hand. Sorry.


For the rogue build, only one sneak attack rider per attack, so bleed or 2str or 1dex not all together. Stick with just pressure points, take combat trick and feat instead?

Seems like you could ditch the improved natural attack feats, and instead invest in a wand or permanent Strong Jaw for better. Replace those and rend with boar style and feral combat training.

Could be worth lagging behind 1d8 sneak attack for a monk MA/MOMS dip and possibly dragon style to ignore difficult terrain.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cult of Vorg wrote:

For the rogue build, only one sneak attack rider per attack, so bleed or 2str or 1dex not all together. Stick with just pressure points, take combat trick and feat instead?

Seems like you could ditch the improved natural attack feats, and instead invest in a wand or permanent Strong Jaw for better. Replace those and rend with boar style and feral combat training.

Could be worth lagging behind 1d8 sneak attack for a monk MA/MOMS dip and possibly dragon style to ignore difficult terrain.

This build, so far, is about maximizing natural attacks. Where does it say that sneak attack "riders" are limited to one? A rogue cannot do ability damage AND bleed? He cannot bleed AND assassinate? That seems rather limiting and not worthy of investing in rogue talents...

I'm not giving up INA. I can use the AoMF and also get a wand or permanant Strong Jaw and all would stack, right?

The point of the Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists on the rogue build would be to get the DEX on both attack and damage. Wouldn't give that up if it didn't stack...


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Personally, I like the Unarmed Fighter/Barbarian for natural attacks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Personally, I like the Unarmed Fighter/Barbarian for natural attacks.

Indeed, I haven't looked into that yet, but I can already see the possibilities.

I'm actually toying with the idea of a dwarven ranger who is absolutely convinced that he's an Orc Barbarian.

Wild Stalker Archetype, Natural Attacks style, get him claw, claw, bite, gore, maybe headbutt with a dwarven boulder helm....etc....

Feasible? Only sticky point is getting claw attacks. Perhaps some druid levels to qualify for Aspect of the Beast?

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