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RPG Superstar 2015

If I told you to make a gunslinger monk...


Advice

Sczarni

how would you make it at lvl 12?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I'd hit myself in the head until the notion went away. If you had to create something new it would be an analogue to the Zen Archer build, but I'm not of the idea that every single class needs a gun analogue. If I wanted to play a gunslinger...I'd play a gunslinger.

Sczarni

Not really what I was asking for, but thanks for playing?


pistoler with dual revolvers, rapid shot, many shot if works(don't think so) improved TWF and speed enchantment and rapid reload for 10 attacks a round each dealing on average 6.5dmg a total of 65 on average before other bonuses.


Dump Str, focus on Wis and Dex for maximum AC and to-hit, and probably only take 4 levels of Monk. Perhaps take the Sacred Mountain archetype.

Sczarni

run just run this isn't a optimize damage bit, I've seen all the "dual wielding pistol threads" I can tolerate, the idea is someone that gets in with a gun and beats with a fist alternatingly. I'll post a build in a bit, having to kick around several ideas right now.


oh ok whoops sorry then thought it was more about the multiple attacks in that case 1lvl. gunslinger for weapon proficiency rest monk.


Hmm. Tough. There's wisdom synergy, but flurry doesn't multiclass well. None of the flurryless monks really do any better. I think I'd take a gunslinger and take Improved Unarmed Strike or maybe dip a level or two of Many Styles. Not sure what style would help though.

Maybe flowing monk. Might even be worth taking that to level 4 to get 2 round sickening off redirection so the save for half still sickens for 1 round and to be able to support allies.

With reposition this will let you stick anyone that attacks you in melee without reach 5' outside your reach, interrupting their attack sequence. Then you shoot them.

While less fun the straight gunslinger with improved unarmed strike and a greater emphasis on wisdom than normal is probably more optimal.


Dip two levels of Master of Many Styles to go into Crane Style, keep the free hand doing double duty reloading and negating attacks.

Then pretty much straight single pistol pistolero.

I am picturing a lightly armored cowboy type in a poncho and wide brimmed hat that is as much of a Raiden look as a cowboy.

Sean Mahoney


I'd make a gunslinger and just quote the matrix a lot.

Sczarni

yeah that's kind of the idea is making a interesting pistoler. =P I think alot of the monk stuff is cool so I'm trying to mix two things I like together! =D

Liberty's Edge

Sean Mahoney wrote:

Dip two levels of Master of Many Styles to go into Crane Style, keep the free hand doing double duty reloading and negating attacks.

Then pretty much straight single pistol pistolero.

I am picturing a lightly armored cowboy type in a poncho and wide brimmed hat that is as much of a Raiden look as a cowboy.

Sean Mahoney

This is about the best suggestion so far. Maybe use Kirin Style as your secondary style since you took Master of Many Styles? It actually works fairly well with ranged characters. It requires some points in INT, but DEX, WIS, INT is doable, especially when you're combing Kirin and Crane.

Silver Crusade

Talk to your GM about modifying the Sohei monk Archetype. This looks to be what you're aiming for - in regards to using your pistol with cool monkishness. You may have to take the Exotic Firearm proficiencies separately though.


there was a gun kata gun monk build floating around a while back, used crane style and other fun stuff iirc.

Sczarni

no we're not going to do any custom class work, just an idea I'm kicking around for PFS heh.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

At least four levels of the Sohei Monk archtype. They get light armor and at fourth level, they gain the ability to use their Ki pool to give their weapons enhancement bonuses.


Get my GM to give me a god with favoured weapon pistol and dip cleric and go the monastic training to make the pistol a monk weapon. Then make sure using a reliable weapon with alchemical cartidges and quick reload to get off lots and lots of shots.


Sean Mahoney wrote:

Dip two levels of Master of Many Styles to go into Crane Style, keep the free hand doing double duty reloading and negating attacks.

Then pretty much straight single pistol pistolero.

I am picturing a lightly armored cowboy type in a poncho and wide brimmed hat that is as much of a Raiden look as a cowboy.

Sean Mahoney

Alternately.... How well does Gulch Gunner synergize there with a defensive Monk build like Crane Style....

- Fighting Defensively...
- Shoot at an adjacent target with dead shot,
- Provoke an attack of Op for firing at adjacent.
- Reflect the attack of Op with Crane riposte.
- Regain a point of grit for provoking an attack of op from adjacent.
- Flash and shock for +4 AC,
- Powder burns for additional damage....

Can you fight defensively while taking a full round action for dead shot?

Sczarni

lol Lovestha, I'm picturing that crappy movie with keanu reeves that had him doing gun katas... lol

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Very cool idea. Sticking with OP solicitation for a gunslinging monk, am thinking 12 levels pure Monk maybe isn't crazy talk.

Perhaps the Wanderer archetype for a Human monk? Would enable a pure Monk build - would get any exotic weapon - including a firearm - for free. Could then use feats to pickup Amateur Gunslinger for Grit and Gunsmithing at first opportunity.

Definitely go with the high Wisdom, high AC, high Grit route. Build for this kind of character favors Wisdom and Dexterity with other stats back-burnered.

As posted already, flurry doesn't synergize well with a non-Zen Archer shooter so stick with one of the non- flurrying archetypes. Flowing Monk and Master of Many Styles both work well. Maybe Snake Style for additional Wisdom synergy on Sense Motive. You'll eventually have a Wisdom bonus on CMB with same for CMD early on. All of this makes a maneuver specialist viable.

You end up with a Caine style figure. Well, Caine with a gun. Sense Motive and Survival would be in play with the Wanderer archetype and high Wisdom. Combat maneuvers, even without a great Strength, are viable with a Hugh Wisdom and Dexterity. Could be interesting!


Still think MoMS/Sacred Mountain would be fun since you could carry around a Culverin and not be knocked down when you use it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lantzkev wrote:
how would you make it at lvl 12?

Monk of the Sacred Mountain 4/Musket Master 8

Bastion Stance: "If the monk starts and ends his turn in the same space, he cannot be knocked prone or forcibly moved until the start of his next turn, except by mind-affecting and teleportation effects." Allows you to fire a culverin or a double hackbut without a rest and not be knocked prone (although the -4 penalty still applies).

Fast Musket deed: "At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm." With Rapid Reload (Culverin or Double Hackbut) and alchemical cartridges, you can reload as a free action.

For those that want to fire really big guns. You only give up +1 BAB for it, too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
lantzkev wrote:
no we're not going to do any custom class work, just an idea I'm kicking around for PFS heh.

You can't carry a gun in PFS unless you have at least one level in gunslinger.

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
lantzkev wrote:
no we're not going to do any custom class work, just an idea I'm kicking around for PFS heh.
You can't carry a gun in PFS unless you have at least one level in gunslinger.

I kind of assumed that based on the title people would have some levels of monk and gunslinger together....

Sczarni

well I think this looks decent to me.

MoMS 3/Weapon Master ftr 3/Gunslinger 6

BAB +11 base saves +14/16/14

Gear gloves of dueling, +1 reliable pistol, +4 headband of wisdom, +6 belt of dex, +3 cloak of resistance, monk robes.

all stats but dex/wis at 10.
Dex 25 (+7)
Wis 20 (+5)
base speed 40
AC/touch ac 10+3(dodge/nimble)+2 monk robes +7 dex +5 wis
Unarmed strike +18/+13/+8 1d10x2
Pistol +23/18/13 1d8x4 +11 dmg per shot.

Feats Dragon style, Crane style, Crane Wing, Weapon focus, Dodge, Rapid Reload, Weapon finesse, Two weapon fighting, Pointblank shot, Rapid shot, Snap shot, Sword and pistol

Basically can ignore terrain, two weapon fight up close and flanking with pistol, crane wing one hit a round.

Rapid shot while in melee (and flanking)
Good saves due to evasion.


Here's someone else's build - Gunslinger 5/MoMS 2/Unarmed Fighter 2


Interesting. A weapon finesse monk might be indistinguishable statwise from a gunslinger expecting a bit of melee. So good synergy.

Personally, I'd like using muskets (and musket master archetype) for a switch hitter...without the switch. Since a monk can use any part of his body for an unarmed strike, you'd never have to bother with the whole dropping weapons and quickdraw other switch hitters have to deal with.

Really, after getting your guntraining at level 5, I'd think that you could just generally go with monk for the other 15. I have little advise beyond maybe getting gunslinger level, one monk level, and then the other gunslinger levels. I only suggest this since your possession of a firearm is easier to explain in backstory rather than in game. But you want both the advantages of monk and guntraining as soon as possible. Others are far more qualified than me to handle the finer details.

Sczarni

I hadn't actually considered using a musket, the only downside is that it removes the ability to really use the pistol in melee (and flanking) which was party of the big idea on this when I saw sword and pistol.

It's a good suggestion! I'm really thinking my DM baby will go this route, the ability to move through allies and ignore difficult terrain is pretty potent, and he's not worried about getting hit either!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

personally i'd go Gunslinger 3/Sohei 6/Weaponmaster[pistol] 3 (though probably not straight through that way if you're playing up to 12)...
i'm not sure how optimized that would be (and i'm too tired to start doing math), but you'd have good AC, a great initiative bonus, bonuses to your mount and the ability to flurry with your pistol (i know its kind of cheap but, unless there's FAQ/errata that i haven't seen, RAW would allow a 6th level sohei to flurry with whatever weapon he chooses for weaponmaster Weapon Training).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

also- it doesn't matter if you use a 1 or 2 handed gun for melee/flanking... monks can freely attack with any part of their body (heads, feet, etc) so you threaten adjacent squares even if holding/wielding a two-handed weapon. the big loss with two-handers is that you can't deflect/snatch arrows or use crane wing or other feats that require "a free hand."

Silver Crusade

@ Nate Lange - "At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons." No firearms for their weapon training, so no flurrying with firearms.

If I were to combine the two, I would go with Musket Master and Monk of the Empty Hand so you can shoot at a range and then Flurry of Blows with your Musket once they get close.

I can imagine you shooting from the front lines, picking off enemies as they rush at you and then twirling the gun like a baton as you smash the enemies' faces in before resuming fire at a distance.

You'd also only need to enhance a single weapon, the musket, since you'd be using the gun both as a ranged weapon and an improvised melee weapon! XD


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A single Cleric of Cixyron dip and the Crusader's Flurry feat will allow you to flurry with the Musket.

I suggest Crusader Cleric at third level.

Sczarni

Greenz that's a pretty cool idea as well. I'm leaning pretty heavily towards this set up. I may alternate how far the monk vs gunslinger levels go though.

As an aside, why did you link to d20pfsrd when the PRD here contains the relevant link?


Perhaps pure sohei monk with amateur gunslinger feat.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

@greenz- "A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training."

I said that is was kind of cheap but- weaponmaster grants "weapon training" in your chosen weapon at 3rd level (and both are equivalent to the base fighter ability), so RAW a sohei 6/weaponmaster[whatever firearm] 3 does have weapon training with firearms and, so, can flurry with their firearm. I don't think that's RAI but it does work (unless, like I said, there's some FAQ or errata I haven't seen).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
nate lange wrote:

personally i'd go Gunslinger 3/Sohei 6/Weaponmaster[pistol] 3 (though probably not straight through that way if you're playing up to 12)...

i'm not sure how optimized that would be (and i'm too tired to start doing math), but you'd have good AC, a great initiative bonus, bonuses to your mount and the ability to flurry with your pistol (i know its kind of cheap but, unless there's FAQ/errata that i haven't seen, RAW would allow a 6th level sohei to flurry with whatever weapon he chooses for weaponmaster Weapon Training).

You really can't flurry with a pistol unless you're talking about using the blunt end as a mace. There's that reloading problem to consider.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
lantzkev wrote:
LazarX wrote:
lantzkev wrote:
no we're not going to do any custom class work, just an idea I'm kicking around for PFS heh.
You can't carry a gun in PFS unless you have at least one level in gunslinger.
I kind of assumed that based on the title people would have some levels of monk and gunslinger together....

And you know what happens when you assume....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
lantzkev wrote:
lol Lovestha, I'm picturing that crappy movie with keanu reeves that had him doing gun katas... lol

You'll need to be specific... there've been so many crappy movies with Reeves. :) A lot of them however, aren't his fault.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was also about to recomend the Gulch Gunner archtype for the gunslinger half, but now see that you want this for PFS, so no luck there - it's a Ratfolk archtype for melee range gunfighting.

The "really big guns" that someone mentioned synergizing with the Mountain Monks also aren't allowed in PFS.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

reloading is a problem- you can only flurry with a pepperbox.
like i said, i'm not sure its an optimal build but thematically i like the idea of a cowboy type who's super quick on the draw, great at brawling, has a special mount, and can empty his pepperbox in a single round if need arises...

Marathon Voter 2014

Christian Bale, "Equilibrium", Gun Katas.

Liberty's Edge

Don't forget the feat deft shootist (grit) so you do not take an AoO every time you reload if you are going to be in melee range.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:


You really can't flurry with a pistol unless you're talking about using the blunt end as a mace. There's that reloading problem to consider.

I don't think that the pistol used in that fashion would work. Flurry has to be with a monk weapon if I am reading it right. And the grit feat Pistol Whip says that you can use it as a blunt object as if you were proficent with it while spending the grit. As clubs are simple weapons and most classes are proficent with clubs I would think that using a gun as a "club" is not something most can do. I very well could be wrong though....


I'd try to talk the GM into letting me use this:

Zen Gunslinger::

Zen Gunslinger
Some monks seek to become one with another weapon entirely—the gun. The zen gunslinger takes a weapon most other monks eschew and seeks perfection in the pull of a trigger, the haze of a gun's smoke, and the flight of a bullet fired true.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Zen gunslingers are proficient with firearms in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a zen gunslinger can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a gun (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen gunslinger's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen gunslinger cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his gun.
Bonus Feats: A zen gunslinger's bonus feats must be taken from the following list: Combat Reflexes, Deflect bullets, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Focused Shot*, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, and Parting Shot*. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run, and Snatch bullets. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. These feats replace the monk's normal bonus feats.
Perfect Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a zen gunslinger gains Perfect Strike as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A zen gunslinger can use Perfect Strike with any gun. At 10th level, the monk can roll his attack roll three times and take the highest result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, the monk must choose one of his other two rolls to use as his confirmation roll. This ability replaces Stunning Fist.
Way of the gun (Ex): At 2nd level, a zen gunslinger gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one type of gun. At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces evasion.
Zen gunslinger (Ex): At 3rd level, a zen gunslinger may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier on ranged attack rolls when using a gun. This ability replaces maneuver training.
Point Blank Master (Ex): At 3rd level, a zen gunslinger gains Point Blank Master* as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces still mind.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, in addition to the normal abilities of his ki pool, a zen gunslinger may spend 1 point from his ki pool to increase the range increment for his gun by 50 feet for 1 round.
Ki bullets (Su): At 5th level, a zen gunslinger may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of bullets he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen gunslinger's short gun normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his bullets deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.
Reflexive pistolwhip (Ex): At 9th level, a zen gunslinger can make attacks of opportunity with blow from the butt of his gun. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes). This ability replaces improved evasion.
Trick Shot (Su): At 11th level, a zen gunslinger may hit targets that he might otherwise miss. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the zen gunslinger can ignore concealment. By spending 2 points, he can ignore total concealment or cover. By spending 3 points, he can ignore total cover, even firing bullets around corners. The bullet must still be able to reach the target; a target inside a closed building with no open doors or windows cannot be attacked. These effects last for 1 round. This ability replaces diamond body.
Ki Focus gun (Su): At 17th level, as long as he has at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, a zen gunslinger may treat bullets fired from his gun as if they were ki focus weapons, allowing him to use his special ki attacks as if his bullets were unarmed attacks. This ability replaces tongue of the sun and moon.

Only downside to this is you'd need revolvers to flury effectively at higher levels...

Liberty's Edge

Lexica Rose wrote:
LazarX wrote:


You really can't flurry with a pistol unless you're talking about using the blunt end as a mace. There's that reloading problem to consider.
I don't think that the pistol used in that fashion would work. Flurry has to be with a monk weapon if I am reading it right. And the grit feat Pistol Whip says that you can use it as a blunt object as if you were proficent with it while spending the grit. As clubs are simple weapons and most classes are proficent with clubs I would think that using a gun as a "club" is not something most can do. I very well could be wrong though....

The post he was answering was suggesting taking levels of Sohei and a fighter archetype. The fighter archetype could provide Weapon Training in a firearm, and the Sohei can flurry with any weapon she has Weapon Training in (even though the Sohei archetype only grants a limited number of Weapon Training groups and this is probably intentionally exploiting an unintended loophole). Technically a Sohei with the right fighter archetype can flurry with pretty much any weapon in the game.

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