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How early is too early, and what is this thing?


Advice


Alright, I have four individually quick questions, and three are really more advice than anything else:

One... Two parts, sorry. Somewhere, either in the Paizo PFRPG source materials somewhere, or in a 3PP somewhere, I remember seeing a magic or wondrous item which was a piece of cloth, which you stored items in, the items appeared as if they'd been embroidered into the cloth while stored there. Does anyone know the name of this item & what piece of source material it comes from?

In clarification for the next three questions, here's a little preliminary information: I am running a high-magic campaign, under a slow experience progression, with Hero Point awards, but one where I am being pretty miserly with the awarding of magical items, as we have a character who down the road intends to go the whole craft magical doodad direction in the near future. I have been giving out plenty of gold, jewels, art objects, trade goods, and other general mundane treasures, to make up for it, and keep my players in potions and the other expendables. The party have an arc-ending battle against a single, well equipped, well prepared, opponent coming up in the not so distant future, and now, alright...

Two... What is the earliest in a campaign (I'm asking for an average player level here) at which you would award a group of four players a Portable Hole? They could seriously use the extra carry capacity/other features of one is why I ask...

Three... What is the earliest in a campaign (again, I'm asking for an average player level here) at which you would award a group of four players a Type II Bag of Holding, or Barrel of Holding, or Basket of Holding, as the case may be at my fickle GMing whim when it happens? Same reasoning here. Just to clarify, any way I cut this one it'd essentially be a Type II Bag of Holding, I just think it's a little bit more fun to add some flavor by making it another type of vessel, is all.

Four... Two... What is the earliest in a campaign (I know it's repetitive here, but of course I'm asking for an average player level here, again) at which you would award a group of four players the item I asked about in the first question?

Seriously, sorry for the repetitive nature of this, and thank you all so much for the help, and it really IS a BIG help!


Concerning all your "when would you..." questions: You give it to them at the point where you can reasonably "save" enough treasure awards from fights/traps/other encounters to get the money together. Given double wealth and slow progression as you stated, the portable hole would be ok as a reward for overcoming 3 CR 10 challenges for example, since each of them awards 3650gp on slow progression (x2 for high magic, x3 for 3 encounters = 21900 gp).

I remember seeing the item you asked for in the first question too, can't remember the name 'though.

You should be able to find it here I guess.

Edit: The 3 encounters are my basic rule if I really want to give something to my PCs, because if you save for mor then those 3, you might end up giving out stuff that is to powerful. I Would only do that for utility items by the way, a weapon or armor worth 3X appropriate CR would probably end up being very powerful.


Sounds kind of like the Robe of Useful Items, but not quite exactly.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Spell: Treasure Stitching... Can't remember which book it's in, though.


Chemlak wrote:
Spell: Treasure Stitching... Can't remember which book it's in, though.

Cool, that sounds like what he's talking about!

It's in the Advanced Players Guide.


Eh...

I'm one of those folks (as player and as GM) who thinks the whole WBL idea is a wonky, relatively useless piece of the game. Particularly given the way people seem to be taking a tool for building characters starting at higher-than-first-level and turning it into some kind of holy writ about how much treasure "should" be available to a group.

But that's a different thread, nevermind...

Anyhow, to deal with your questions.

All of these issues depend upon your game, your judgment. Given that you describe the campaign as "high-magic," it isn't beyond the pale that any or all of the above items might end up available.

It sounds to me like you're WANTING to give them some extra, portable storage space... so why not do it, regardless of their level? I mean... OMG, now they're above WBL! Teh Gamez Broked!

Not really, I promise; the game will be just fine. If you're really concerned about what it will do to WBL, just start handing out a little less treasure, and over time the party will fall back into WBL compliance.

In the meantime, letting them have some extradimensional space for their stuff isn't a hideously-game-changing choice. At worst, they'll make fewer trips back to town, and will be able to haul big treasures out of dungeons without multiple trips and/or needing wagon and oxen.

I submit that the earliest level to grant stuff like this to a party is "when you feel like it."

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Alitan wrote:

Eh...

I'm one of those folks (as player and as GM) who thinks the whole WBL idea is a wonky, relatively useless piece of the game. Particularly given the way people seem to be taking a tool for building characters starting at higher-than-first-level and turning it into some kind of holy writ about how much treasure "should" be available to a group.

But that's a different thread, nevermind...

Anyhow, to deal with your questions.

All of these issues depend upon your game, your judgment. Given that you describe the campaign as "high-magic," it isn't beyond the pale that any or all of the above items might end up available.

It sounds to me like you're WANTING to give them some extra, portable storage space... so why not do it, regardless of their level? I mean... OMG, now they're above WBL! Teh Gamez Broked!

Not really, I promise; the game will be just fine. If you're really concerned about what it will do to WBL, just start handing out a little less treasure, and over time the party will fall back into WBL compliance.

In the meantime, letting them have some extradimensional space for their stuff isn't a hideously-game-changing choice. At worst, they'll make fewer trips back to town, and will be able to haul big treasures out of dungeons without multiple trips and/or needing wagon and oxen.

I submit that the earliest level to grant stuff like this to a party is "when you feel like it."

That's cool with the right group of players.

With the wrong group they'll sell it to buy magic swords...

Shadow Lodge

If a group uses player deaths to cheat WBL and get extra gold, don't the WBL fairies take the extra away?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Answers to your questions about "when the characters should get...?"

When the plot calls for it.

I appear to have a similar reaction to the WBL system as Alitan. I believe it was a guide to help build higher level characters. I don't treat it like a character straightjacket.

Every now and then players in my campaigns will be dirt poor. Every now and then players in my campaigns will win the magic lottery.

I pay almost no attention whatsoever to the WBL guidelines unless I feel a need to re-balance things, or if a new character is being rolled up.

Shadow Lodge

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I believe it was a guide to help build higher level characters.

I'm about 99.95% sure that was it's originally intended purpose. I'm not sure when it became the etched in stone "THIS IS HOW MUCH WEALTH A CHARACTER SHALL HAVE" rule above all other rules that it's so often treated as these days.


GeraintElberion wrote:

That's cool with the right group of players.

With the wrong group they'll sell it to buy magic swords...

And then they find the market on magic swords has run dry, and don't get any more "free" goodies from the GM, or so I see it.

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Moved thread.


Kthulhu wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I believe it was a guide to help build higher level characters.
I'm about 99.95% sure that was it's originally intended purpose. I'm not sure when it became the etched in stone "THIS IS HOW MUCH WEALTH A CHARACTER SHALL HAVE" rule above all other rules that it's so often treated as these days.

Well, I don't think it is an etched in stone rule or should be used as a straitjacket. But I do think it is a decent guidline especially if you are not terribly experienced GM or at least not with this rule set.

I have seen GM's give out so little treasure, that the players constantly lose or at least have a real tough time with creatures that 'should' be much less powerful than they are.

Or

I have also seen GM's give out so much treasure that it becomes very difficult to challenge the party without out killing them.

Or

So much treasure that the characters are nearly irrelevant. When a 3rd level character has a weapon that is just shy of an artifact, it doesn't seem to matter much whether he is a fighter or a rogue. He seems to just become something to carry around the weapon. The weapon almost becomes the character.

Now some people like any or all of three of the above. That's fine. They aren't my favorite, but that's ok. But it is not the default or standard game. And I think it is a bit harder for someone to learn in that type of an environment.

So back to the OP questions.

1) I don't know for sure.

2) I would probably wait until around 10th level or so unless it is needed for something in the campaign story line. If they really want it sooner, they can save their pennies and make/commision it sooner.

3) Not unreasonable anytime after 3rd or 4th level.

Shadow Lodge

Myself, I tend to be heavy on the gold, jewels, etc and maybe a bit stingy on the magical items.


I give my players magical items that I know they will use. No +1 nunchucks come out in my treasure piles.

That being said, the entire concept of eating and storage capacity are things that are very easily forgotten. I tend to give my players some kind of food producing item and a portable hole early on in the game. No need to leave behind any swag/gems/art/coins.

The only thing to watch out for is creative characters. Portable holes can become extremely dangerous weapons in the wrong hands. Decanters of Endless Water and Murlynd's Spoons are less dangerous, but still could be misused by enterprising PCs.


Delthyn wrote:
... The only thing to watch out for is creative characters. Portable holes can become extremely dangerous weapons in the wrong hands. Decanters of Endless Water and Murlynd's Spoons are less dangerous, but still could be misused by enterprising PCs.

The thing I have done with players I don't know real well is give them charge or time limited magic items.

The general gives them a decanter and spoon that will function for the next 2 weeks since he is in a hurry and doesn't want to take the time (or be obvious) for them to provision for a long trek.

that gives me some time to learn if they are the 'creative type' that are likely to try and break the adventure. And if they are, it is a limited use item.

Lantern Lodge

The only time my players get items is when they strip it from the enemy's corpse and even then the gear is tailored for the enemy not the party so usually its useless to them other than vender trash.

Shadow Lodge

I've always found it to be more exciting to gain your gear by battling it's former owner than to gain your gear by boldy taking it to the counter and heroicly shelling out a small fortune.


Kthulhu wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I believe it was a guide to help build higher level characters.
I'm about 99.95% sure that was it's originally intended purpose. I'm not sure when it became the etched in stone "THIS IS HOW MUCH WEALTH A CHARACTER SHALL HAVE" rule above all other rules that it's so often treated as these days.

Isn't that how people who adhere only to RAW usually sound like, though?

Kthulhu wrote:
I've always found it to be more exciting to gain your gear by battling it's former owner than to gain your gear by boldy taking it to the counter and heroicly shelling out a small fortune.

Sounds like a murderhobo to me. Are any of your characters good-aligned by chance?


Eh, the problem with not really paying attention to WBL for existing characters is the CR system assumes a certain wealth level for the PCs to have to be able to over come the challenges.

Be overly generous and you look at a string of cakewalks or having to have high CR encounters to challenge them (and hard encounters increases the chance that a PC might accidentally die to a random roll like a crit or high CR save or die).

Be overly miserly and you will find even "easy" encounters can be difficult for gear dependent classes since they won't have the bonuses or weapon types or spells (in the case of wizards since they can't afford new scrolls and/or scribing costs).

You don't have to be married to the system, but from experience deviating to far from the WBL guidelines is a source of player and GM frustration. Players like to have their things, GMs like to provide a challenge to the players. The WBL guide strikes a healthy balance between two interests.

As for the OPs question, the proper time for players to get storage magic is the level where you think that the items are low enough a percentage of player wealth that they probably won't sell them for a +X ring/weapon/armor/cloak/stat item. I would say about 10% of a players expected wealth. Maybe higher if its a handy haversack (as that is considered an essential item by most experienced players in my experience).

Shadow Lodge

Icyshadow wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
I've always found it to be more exciting to gain your gear by battling it's former owner than to gain your gear by boldy taking it to the counter and heroicly shelling out a small fortune.
Sounds like a murderhobo to me. Are any of your characters good-aligned by chance?

1. You seem to think I'll take offense to the murderhobo label. I don't really. I'll freely admit to generally playing in a murderhobo style.

2. A murderhobo who aims himself at evil targets is perfectly capable of being good-aligned. Perhaps not LG, but LG has never appealed to me much. My most common alignment is NG.


The other concern, to some extent, is that wealth by level is one of the balancing mechanisms for classes. Specifically, martial types get a LOT more bang for their buck from treasure than caster-types get.

You may find, if you deviate vastly from WBL, an imbalance between party members.

-Cross (Not saying this will happen, just that it's a possibility)

Shadow Lodge

notabot wrote:

Eh, the problem with not really paying attention to WBL for existing characters is the CR system assumes a certain wealth level for the PCs to have to be able to over come the challenges.

Be overly generous and you look at a string of cakewalks or having to have high CR encounters to challenge them (and hard encounters increases the chance that a PC might accidentally die to a random roll like a crit or high CR save or die).

Be overly miserly and you will find even "easy" encounters can be difficult for gear dependent classes since they won't have the bonuses or weapon types or spells (in the case of wizards since they can't afford new scrolls and/or scribing costs).

You don't have to be married to the system, but from experience deviating to far from the WBL guidelines is a source of player and GM frustration. Players like to have their things, GMs like to provide a challenge to the players. The WBL guide strikes a healthy balance between two interests.

As for the OPs question, the proper time for players to get storage magic is the level where you think that the items are low enough a percentage of player wealth that they probably won't sell them for a +X ring/weapon/armor/cloak/stat item. I would say about 10% of a players expected wealth. Maybe higher if its a handy haversack (as that is considered an essential item by most experienced players in my experience).

The thing is, I don't hold myself to encounter CR = APL any more than I restrict myself to the WBL. In my opinion, some encounters SHOULD be cakewalks, just as there should be encounters that the PCs would do best to run away from.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would just make sure that what you give them does not have odd uses that could be used game-breakingly too early. Extra storage space is fine as far as I can tell, but I am sure if you loaded a "how to do unexpected things with a portable hole" thread, you would get a ton of crazy ideas, some of which might allow them to beat "too high" level encounters.

I would personally like to give them some way of carrying the stuff that was a little more interesting. Maybe a caravan style wagon that fits may more gear than it should be able to, but only holds x (the number of people in the party) people. This would mean they could carry a lot of things, but would need to find someone to protect the wagon/drive the horses. It would be useful for loading things into, but would only be practical after completing the task at hand. It would also be cool :)

Dark Archive

In our kingmaker game we found a bag of holding type 4 at 6th lvl. If Paizo APs are giving those out you can give out magic storage whenever you feel the need to.

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