OK, so reading thru the forums the judges have a low opinion on camping items (i.e. items that make it easy to camp.) Reasoning being that these items aren't very super star and make the game less fun b/c it takes away the DM cliche of attacking you in your sleep. I conformed even though quite honestly I'm a fan of these items and find the attack you while you camp thing a bit cliche.
But I do want to point out for general play,camping items are always a fun challenge to make creative use of as a player. My all time favorite wondrous item ever in 2nd ed was the Mist Tent in the hands of my rogue/thief.
I called it the mobile ambush platform, when my DM asked why I pointed out what it did.
The mist tent was a tent in a bottle that floated off the ground to a height of 10 feet and went invisible along with all its occupants. There was a generous time limit for this. You could also shoot arrows out of the flap. Anytime we had distance in an encounter I used the crap out of this thing to set up backstabs and sneaky as hell ambushed.
Don't even get me started on the shenanigans I've pulled with a portable hole.
What's your favorite camping item?
How did you use/abuse it outside of its intended purpose?
I'll throw down the gauntlet and challenge anyone to put forth a "useless" magic item, I'll find a way/situation in which that item is boss.
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But I think the potential for creative utility does.
But I think the potential for creative utility does.
This guy gets it...
No item is useless in smart hands!
I've had players that keep track of every mundane piece of equipment because they knew, knew that by doing so they could McGuiver their way out of things once in awhile.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
aka FaxCelestis
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The complaint isn't that an item is useless, or even that it makes camping 'safe'. The issue is that an item shouldn't metagame in such a way that it prevents the DM from doing what he wants to do.
Player: "My sleeping bag of early warning means I can't be ambushed when I'm sleeping in it! How did they ambush us?"
DM: "Maaagic." http://www.excusememe.com/pics/imagebase/5216.gif
Player: "So basically it only works when you want it to? Why the hell did I buy this then?"
But I think the potential for creative utility does.
I cannot agree with this more. When considering the uses of an item as intended, I think it's just as, if not more, important to consider the uses of an item not as intended, which are frequently more interesting. My item was expressly designed with possible player shenanigans in mind, given that player shenanigans are a constant in Pathfinder.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
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I cannot agree with this more. When considering the uses of an item as intended, I think it's just as, if not more, important to consider the uses of an item not as intended, which are frequently more interesting. My item was expressly designed with possible player shenanigans in mind, given that player shenanigans are a constant in Pathfinder.But I think the potential for creative utility does.
Wouldn't that be a superstar player, not a superstar item?
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But I think the potential for creative utility does.
This guy gets it...
No item is useless in smart hands!
I've had players that keep track of every mundane piece of equipment because they knew, knew that by doing so they could McGuiver their way out of things once in awhile.
Just because the user of the item finds superstar ways to use it, does not mean the item itself is superstar.
I mean, I can find a million ways to creatively use a spatula, but a spatula is not really that interesting.
So those who take interest in my spatula wielding awesomeness are probably more enamored with what I'm doing with it, rather than the spatula itself.
That's the point.
Superstar items stand on their own merit, not what you might be able to creatively use it for.
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Wouldn't that be a superstar player, not a superstar item?I cannot agree with this more. When considering the uses of an item as intended, I think it's just as, if not more, important to consider the uses of an item not as intended, which are frequently more interesting. My item was expressly designed with possible player shenanigans in mind, given that player shenanigans are a constant in Pathfinder.But I think the potential for creative utility does.
Yup
Just because the user of the item finds superstar ways to use it, does not mean the item itself is superstar.
I mean, I can find a million ways to creatively use a spatula, but a spatula is not really that interesting.
So those who take interest in my spatula wielding awesomeness are probably more enamored with what I'm doing with it, rather than the spatula itself.
That's the point.
Superstar items stand on their own merit, not what you might be able to creatively use it for.
I can dig what you're laying down... But I also hate players that swap out their +2 sword for a +3 sword just because its a little better. Items that just lay down pluses bore the crap outta me. You don't even want to know what I've done with items like shovel of digging and what not. Don't even get me started on some of the sneakier uses of what many consider "useless spells."
Take crafters fortune in kingmaker as a great example. Hey lets add $300 gp value to most any item by making master work...
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I can dig what you're laying down... But I also hate players that swap out their +@ sword for a +3 sword just because its a little better. Items that just lay down pluses bore the crap outta me. You don't even want to know what I've done with items like shovel of digging and what not. Don't even get me started on some of the sneakier uses of what many consider "useless spells."
Just because the user of the item finds superstar ways to use it, does not mean the item itself is superstar.I mean, I can find a million ways to creatively use a spatula, but a spatula is not really that interesting.
So those who take interest in my spatula wielding awesomeness are probably more enamored with what I'm doing with it, rather than the spatula itself.
That's the point.
Superstar items stand on their own merit, not what you might be able to creatively use it for.
Aside from the fact that you are coming across as incredibly egotistical and self-aggrandizing (I think many folks who peruse these boards can be extremely creative with what are otherwise mundane spells or items) how does your creativity with boring having anything to do with camping items generally not being superstar?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
aka FaxCelestis
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Aside from the fact that you are coming across as incredibly egotistical and self-aggrandizing (I think many folks who peruse these boards can be extremely creative with what are otherwise mundane spells or items) how does your creativity with boring having anything to do with camping items generally not being superstar?
This post! I like it! *smash* Another!
Aside from the fact that you are coming across as incredibly egotistical and self-aggrandizing (I think many folks who peruse these boards can be extremely creative with what are otherwise mundane spells or items) how does your creativity with boring having anything to do with camping items generally not being superstar?
Not really trying to come off that way, really just disagree with the perception that camping items suck. I've had a long time love affair with this game and I guess I perceive the judges opinions as company opinions. Items like Mist tent and Murlund's spoon (sp?) and spells like Ant haul and floating disk add awesome flavor to the game and I'd hate that to be quashed.
I'm starting to see this contest as a trendsetter for the game I love, as it not only develops the next generation of game design talent, but influences the perception of what good game design is.
I may very well be a minority in wanting more kooky, off the wall, history flavored, weird WTF do I do with this items in the game, but I think that there are allot of types of gamers and players out there and I can't be alone.
Again not trying to come off self aggrandizing. I love Pathfinder! They saved D&D in my opinion, as that company that shall not be named seems to be going in a direction that more resembles online MORPG content then story driven roleplaying content. I respect that the company listens to their customers so I was trying here to create some buzz for those that like flavor items, even if they are "camp" items.
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I concede that Jame Raine and Bbauzh ap Aghauzh are right:
"Superstar items stand on their own merit, not what you might be able to creatively use it for."
But again this thread wasn't lets change Super Star it was more intended as a what's some fun crap you've pulled with mundane items, camping items in particular.
This was supposed to be a fun distraction oriented thread since we're all waiting for voting to begin. It took a somewhat hostile turn at some point, so I'm done trying...
Again, it's not that camp items 'suck', it's that they interfere with the DM's ability to DM.
So does just about ANY magic item. I'm a DM to in fact its rare these days I get to cut loose as a player. But any magic item potentially pees in a DMs cheerios. Floating tower shield interpheres with the BBE's ability to hit you, flaming sword screws up the Troll's ability to regenerate, potion of vanish lets you sneak past a DMs guards, and you can make that argument over any magic item. Camping item inhibit the DM from screwing a player's wizard out of having spells prepared and a warrior being caught without his armor. Smart players get around allot of that anyway without magic items.
I guess I don't see how this screws the DMs fundamental ability to run a good story which to me is what the game is about. As a DM I often have to adjust to what my players pull, and as DM ultimately I get to decide what items are available in treasure or for purchase so if the players pull something silly with an item, isn't it sort of my fault? Heck when a player catches me flat-footed with something I give them props for pulling something cool.
I guesse too many DM's are relying on ambushes, usually in ways that they would never let players get away with.
I don't like to ambush. I like Surprise Rounds when it's necessary, like when my wraith comes out of the picture of itself.
I can't think of a *single* instance where I ran a game that did the campsite ambush. I like to use campfire scenes for the characters to RP a bit and maybe do some divining/oracling/etc.
So, in my games, sure go ahead and buy that mist tent. You wasted your money :)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
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There is the hypothetical situation I described above. Most camping items make it 'safe' to be in the wilderness. This means, among other things, that if the plot calls for the party to be ambushed, it can't happen. "Messing with the DM's ability to tell the story" is a bad thing. "Messing with the DM's ability to mess with the players" is not.
What would you say to an item that gave the wearer immunity to damage, all kinds? That, for all intents and purposes, makes the player basically unkillable barring something like phantasmal killer. The DM would have to rely on a specific kind of attack in order to even compete with you. This is a story-wrecker.
Camping items are just like this, in that they interfere with the DM's ability to tell a story. Sure, the DM can probably wrangle around your sleeping bag of early warning, but then it turns into a situation where the item you bought only succeeds at its intended purpose when it doesn't matter: your nights would be exactly the same as when you didn't have your sleeping bag, so why bother owning one?
And if someone asks "why bother owning one" about your superstar item, you've misunderstood the point of this contest.
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Also, remember Rule 27 applies. If your item is an AWESOME camping item, it can still get you into the Top 32.
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My all time favorite wondrous item ever in 2nd ed was the Mist Tent in the hands of my rogue/thief.
I called it the mobile ambush platform, when my DM asked why I pointed out what it did.
See, though, to me that's pretty much the opposite of a superstar item. Whoever came up with the mist tent was undoubtedly viewing it as just a 'safe camping' item. I very much doubt it was developed as being a sneaky way to insert a floating weapons platform with permanent improved invisibility affecting it and the characters inside. Your creative use of it was fine, but that's not at all to the credit of the item as designed. Look through some of the old critique threads and you'll see dozens of examples of the judges throwing an item out because, while it had a clear intended use it offered a lot of potential for abuse that, presumably, the item's creator hadn't thought of.
Which isn't to say there isn't a whole category of items that offer themselves up to creative usage; give a couple of immovable rods to your players, then sit back and watch. It's like putting a couple of shiny red balls and cardboard tubes into the lab rat's cage and seeing him put it to work to get food pellets. And there have been some really stellar superstar items over the years that do the same thing. Samuel Kisko's Migrus locker or Carl Klutzke's boundary chalk are really good examples of the 'wow, what uses can my players find for that?' items.
All of which is more me going on about the 'innovative use of items' side of this discussion rather than the 'camping items are dull' part. Personally I do find them dull and less than indicative of the superstar qualities the creator might have, but even that's hardly a rule set in stone. Using another previous year example, Carl Flaherty's lordly pavilion is just your standard 'make camping safer/more convenient' item, but the caliber of the writing manages to set it apart and earn it a place in that year's top 32.
I can see your point James, but I guess I'm more like Pendin Fust in that I think the attack you while you sleep is cheap theatrics and I tend not to do so. Ditto with targeting familiars and animal companions, I tend to frown upon it as a DM unless its absolutely stupid not to.
As a player, dam right I'm buying that mist tent or casting alarm or using some kind of fortification spell, I've had DMs that have a random encounter every night. As a player I despise that sort of DM, and I can tell you both DMs that pulled that crap quickly ended up with empty games.
APs do this occasionally too, and that's OK. Recently had a run with an NPC disappearing in the middle of the night with no explanation or rolls despite us having taken camping precautions and posting guards, and my character was sleeping with the NPC in question. It was bullcrap, but the DM throws up his hands and says "the AP says this happens and I cannot elaborate."
We let it go as a gaming group, but I generally frown on that kind of thing. I agree with you with regards to a sleeping bag of alarms certainly shouldn't be considered superstar, but then again that really wasn't the thread I was going for anyway.
This is an interesting conversation, but I was more looking for a sheenanigans kind of thread. I was going for stuff like "I once used murlond's spoon and enlarge to choke the BBE with gruel, it was fun." Not let's start a another 60+ post thread on what the judges are looking for in an item, that has been beaten to death.
So, going with the original intent of the thread...
Would a half-red dragon/elf ranger being thrown by a half-blue dragon/human fighter in the general direction of the BBEG slaver and his goons count? ;) She missed, landing right in front of him, and bit off his somewhat important bits. It was a heck of a distraction, although we still lost the fight.
Dragons are magical creatures, so half-dragon teeth are magic items, right? ;)
We had more fun in that campaign...
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Ye gods the crap I've seen pulled with that spell especially since it creates a gallon per caster level.
Player who was getting annoyed with sprite fly and run antics: How big is a pixy?
Me: diminutive so pretty small
Player: They have insect looking wings right
Me: like a moth
Player: I create 9 gallons of water over that little (expletive)
Me: Crap failed his reflex save guess he's grounded...
Player (after getting zapped on a Attack of Op): So that magus still has shocking grasp up
Me: yep
Player: how?
Me: Lingering spell
Player 2: Create water!
Me: ok guess I'll roll a fort save cause yeah electricity conducts and the spell protects his hands
Player 2: isn't he wearing metal armor
Me: yeah yeah I'll call that a -2 penalty I guess
Player: so there's a pressure plate over there... wonder if 9 gallons of water will trigger it...
Me: I'm starting to hate that spell
So, going with the original intent of the thread...
Would a half-red dragon/elf ranger being thrown by a half-blue dragon/human fighter in the general direction of the BBEG slaver and his goons count? ;) She missed, landing right in front of him, and bit off his somewhat important bits. It was a heck of a distraction, although we still lost the fight.
Dragons are magical creatures, so half-dragon teeth are magic items, right? ;)
We had more fun in that campaign...
Nice, good ole X-men fastball special!
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I had a player distract a group of feral dogs by using prestidigitation to make a handful of stones taste and smell like meat.
I should mention that most camping items are terrible and I'm really glad most of the designers agree. This is because camping items are almost solely designed to facilitate an ease of play over a story told.
I like the campy NPC gag items for camping...if I'm in that type of game. But any item that handicaps a GM is in my mind poor for the game.
That being said, I think items like an immovable rod, portable hole, and rope of entanglement create such an open-ended scope of utility that they are superstar even if used by a player with poor creativity. The potential for creativity makes those items superstar.
A spatula...or a towel...or a 10' pole all have their place: and if we were designing a contest for superstar mundane items...they might be competitors.
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I actually thought camping items and spells were a much larger category than mere "keep safe while we sleep". Anything that relegates your game to "adventure for half and hour and then rest after we're out of ninth level spells" falls into this category and abuses GMs who prepare encounters but can't always prepare for player preparation. To me, camping items are anything that takes the adventure out of adventuring. During 3.5, I would have called Leomund's secure chest, heroes' feast, or an instant fortress all "camping items", even though only one is related to camping.
And to Gehenna with find the path.
APs do this occasionally too, and that's OK. Recently had a run with an NPC disappearing in the middle of the night with no explanation or rolls despite us having taken camping precautions and posting guards, and my character was sleeping with the NPC in question. It was bullcrap, but the DM throws up his hands and says "the AP says this happens and I cannot elaborate."
But, is this a problem with the whole 'being attacked in your sleep' or the PCs being too prepared for the GM? There are lots of ways this could be handled. The NPC running off to the bathroom and not returning, the disappearance waiting until another time... etc.
It again comes down to use.
Sure, a good player can use any terrible item for a number of great effects. And sure, a number of plot hooks can be ruined any matter of ways. But the idea here is to not make more work for GMs or players. We want items that are creative *before* you factor in zany antics. We want plots that are usable before you consider how off the rails the players have gone.
This is the difference between a superstar designer and a great group. The first makes it fun for everyone. The second makes it fun for themselves
I keep reading about this "rule 27" but haven't ever seen a rule 27 out there...what is it?
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Here is something to contemplate as a player:
A bit of my history
I was once a GM who ran games in a GM vs. Player kind of way, where the monsters, traps, plot, npcs, et. al. were my characters, and I had to do everything humanly possible to keep them alive. I would create encounters specifically to mess with the players while they were at their weakest.
When I started GM’ing for Living Greyhawk, and indeed was one of the co-coordinators for Living Dragonstar as its developer, I learned a huge lesson. The job of a GM is to tell a cooperative story with the players, and the job of the monsters, traps, plots, and npcs is to be beaten by the player characters.
GM Perspective
If a player is playing in a style that players often play with when the dynamic is GM vs. Player, I will often try to direct that player back to the cooperative storytelling attitude. It does break some of the tension and/or verisimilitude to say things like, “don’t worry, you’ll figure it out, or you aren’t screwed,” when they start freaking out like I’m out to get them. But sometimes you have to calmly let them know that this is just the angst part of the story, and eventually they will figure it out and have a good shot at surviving and being the heroes of the story.
So while I do write very tough encounters (or modify existing encounters—I have to anyways, as I’m running 8 players with 25pt buys through Kingmaker), and sometimes the players have to think of unique ways to survive, they don’t have to twist the rules and intent of spells and/or items to do so. How should I respond to a player who wants to use a camping item outside of its intended use to completely derail an entire campaign? “Hey, ok guys, you win. Who wants to GM the next one?”
So saying all that, if I write into the plot (or the AP or module I’m using already has it, and it makes good sense and ties to the plot well) a camping ambush, then it isn’t me as the GM trying to screw over or screw with the players. And any over-the-top actions the players take to make such a thing impossible (setting guards or alarm spells should be SOP, so I’m not considering that), is playing with the attitude that they are trying to win or beat the GM rather than play a cooperative story telling venture. Over-the-top actions would be anything above and beyond what they would normally do. Spells like rope trick and the various magnificent shelter/mansion are not what I’m talking about.
My players can be very creative. But generally they don’t go over-the-top with their creativity because they know I’m not out to get them. And unless the dice are just unfriendly, I won’t create situations specifically to off one of their characters. That isn’t to say that I haven’t killed a character or two, here and there, but overall I take care of the characters for plot purposes, and they know that (don’t read this as I softball. I don’t.)
Player Perspective
I don’t want things to be easy or without danger. I want to sit on the edge of my seat and wonder if my character is going to survive, and then somehow pull it out at the end.
I only ever start making over-the-top creative use of items, when I’m playing with GM’s who feel they need to beat the players (i.e. when there is a GM vs. Player dynamic).
On the whole subject, of neat new ways of using the things we find in games:
I was running a game, where the halfling rogue of the party came across a ring of jumping, but had no clue what it was. Being the spontaneous sort that he was he just started pointing the ring at things making (various Green Lantern poses) and eventually made a Use Magic Device check, and failed horribly. As a result I had the ring throw him into a nearby wall.
From that point on, the halfling had convinced himself that he had found a ring of the ram (albeit one that worked in reverse). After various attempts to use the ring in the way he thought it was intended, he accidentally succeeded on his Use Magic Device check and ended up jumping on top of a nearby building. The act saved his life, but he was always a bit disappointed with the ring after that.
I keep reading about this "rule 27" but haven't ever seen a rule 27 out there...what is it?
Owch - Sean created a list of common design flaws, etc that often get entries into the "not superstar" pile.
One of the first posts every year is "the competition is open" usually preceded or followed immediately by the advice sticky thread...
This is the most important thread after the competition rules.
The first blue link is the fabled #27.
To answer Saffire, the often-mentioned Rule 27 is Sean k. Reynold's advice on creating a wondrous item for RPG Superstar:
"27. An awesome item may disregard the previous advice."
In other words, your item probably shouldn't be a toy or a spell-in-a-can or any of the things Sean advised against in rules 1-26 ... but even if your item does break one of the rules, if it is awesome enough, it may win anyway.
And, to GM_Solspiral, I also think that, although they don't necessarily fit the Superstar criteria, so-called camping items can be fun and useful . . . and as Eric Morton proved above with his creative and practical Veil of the Midnight Vigil, they might make it through the competition nonetheless!
Personally, on the order of useful little items or spells being used in creative ways, I am similar to Woodengolem's player as mentioned above . . . Prestidigitation is an invaluable way to keep myself clean, my rival in an important social situation dirty, my client's food tasty, that insufferable bore's nose green, the poisoned drink smelling amazing to my enemy, and the colorful magic graffiti on the wall insulting the rival adventurer's guild untraceable. Yep. Best cantrip ever. :)
Ah! Thank you, I am now in the loop :)Though I'm not sure how I missed that, I've been combing the boards in the last couple weeks. I feel kinda bad now.
We were all new to this competition once, so don't worry about it.