Hello, all.
My friends are going to be starting a lvl 1 pathfinder campaign pretty soon. I've been beating my head against the wall trying to make something for a while now, since I wanted to make something interesting, but still good. I came up with a few things, but this one sticks out as the one I'm most confused about. I can't decide if it's bad or good.
I came up with a 20 point buy Elf fighter with these stats:
Str:14, Con: 11, Dex: 18, Int: 14, Wis: 12, Cha: 8
I'd take Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting at level 1, and I'd dual wield Kukris. The idea is that I'd have decently high AC to offset the low health somewhat, I'd have all the skill points I want (for Acrobatics, Climb, Swim, and Perception), I could take combat expertise for combat maneuvers later, and I could switch to a bow if the situation called for it.
But it just seems like everything about it is delayed gratification. I went with two kukris because they're light and if I use the same weapon in each hand, the weapon expertise and focus feats apply to both hands. And I could do neat stuff later with the crit feats. But the damage is so piddly, what with the D4's and +2 strength mod.
And 19 AC isn't bad, but I don't trust it to keep me safe with 11 starting hit points. But then again, at high levels I could fill out the dex allowance on full plate with fighter armor mastery, and do backflips in it.
And all of those skills would start out pathetic, with a breastplates check penalty, and with only two of them being class skills. But I figured they'd catch up if I spent a point at level two to make them class skills (not sure if that's a real rule or a house rule), and keep putting points into just them after that.
Lastly, I was worried about saves. I'd start out with low fort, low will, and kind of good reflex. But the reflex wouldn't scale very well, what with me being a fighter and all. I guessed I might have room for the feats that increase them, but I've also heard that two weapon builds are feat starved.
Anyway, I just was hoping to see some opinions from some people with a little more experience making Pathfinder characters. I probably won't be using it this time around, because our party is kind of wonky. Me and a cleric with a rapier will be the front line, with a weird experimental whip magus behind us, and a bard and an archer monk behind that. So I'm probably going to do something with more reliable damage, like a barbarian with a greatsword. But I do like the idea of this fighter, so I still figured I'd ask.
lore warden'd take some of the edge off those low skills (though you probably want teh TWF archetype), but dude, chill: you're level 1, everyone's antsy about their character.
your build seems pretty solid, and so long as you keep clear of castys early on you should be pretty much fine (grab iron will later, you wont regret it). your BAB and weapon finesse let you hit fairly regularly, and your "piddly" damage is offset by your respectable crit range, as well as the number of attacks you're dishing out to level-appropriate targets.
personally: i'd say bump that con to at least a 12. from what i dont know--you could take a point from dex (gasp) to give you three extra build points and have a nice cozy place to put that 4th level increase.
Loving the feedback. I didn't even notice short swords on the weapon list, that's definitely a good option.
I did think about making this build a lore warden, and going with an Elven curve blade. That way, I could take Breadth of Experience and be really good at knowledge checks. I kind of drifted away from that since one of the others decided to play a bard, but I don't think I'm ready to take it off the table.
And don't worry, I totally was building towards a character concept. This is is a retooling of my first pathfinder character who was an Elf barbarian with an Elven Curve Blade. I was trying to make it like this obscure character named Artemis from Wonder Woman comics. She was a badass amazon warrior with a lot of finesse, and who seemed to be good at melee and range (be it guns or bows). Then I gravitated towards the Kukris when I reread this Secret Six comic where she was featured heavily, and one of the bad guys was this chick with two kukris. So I thought that was cool too. And with the Elf angle thrown in, I liked the idea of adding some knowledge skills, since Elves are known for being smart, and so I wouldn't just be captain fight man. But then, like I said, I drifted away from it because of the bard. But I still thought it could work roleplay-wise, if I played it like a mix of Artemis and Michonne from walking dead. An anti-social warrior who doesn't care what anybody thinks, and who focuses almost solely on honing their skills.
Oh, and I definitely was going to swap out Elven Magic for something. And I probably will end up dumping Cha down to seven for the con. And the only reason it's an elf is because I like elves, is all. I know they're not the best race for this (or as far as I can tell, anything except wizards).
I think a two handed option would be better for you here. The thing about two weapon fighting is you really need some additional source of damage for it to be worth it, whether its sneak attack dice, or higher strength, or agile weapons, etc.
The extra attacks aren't worth a whole lot if you don't do any damage per attack
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Forget Lore Warden 4 skills per level is plenty. You're going to need a lvl dip for acrobatics to be a class skill. So why not Urban Barbarian?
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 7
lvl 1 Fighter (TWW): Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
lvl 2 Barbarian (Urban):
lvl 3 Fighter (TWW): Weapon Focus (Kukri), Extra Rage
lvl 4 Fighter (TWW):
lvl 5 Fighter (TWW): Weapon Specialization (Kukri), Pirahna Strike
lvl 6 Fighter (TWW):
lvl 7 Fighter (TWW): Improved TWF, Extra Rage
lvl 8 Fighter (TWW):
lvl 9 Fighter (TWW): Greater Weapon Focus (kukri), Improved Critical (Kukri)
lvl 10 Fighter (TWW):
At lvl 5 you'll have 11 rounds of rage. Because you can boost Dex, you'll be able to sacrifice attack for Pirahna Strike and increase DPR. At lvl 10 you'll have 17 rounds of rage. More than enough for an adventuring day. Make sure to enchant your kukris with the agile property asap. Stay with Kukri for the 18-20 crit range and also avoid dual wielding elven curved blades. 1d10 vs 1d4 does not outway a -2 penalty on attack.
A 2-weapon fighter is going to have "delayed gratification" no matter what you do. In fact, regardless of what class you take, two-weapon fighting takes some time to really shine.
From personal experience by far my favorite dual-wielding build is Barbarian 1 / Two-Weapon Warrior 19. Get 17 DEX, save up for a Mithral Full Plate of Speed, and watch the insanity unfold. Any more DEX than 17 is wasted AC, and any less than that means you're not eligible for the best TWF feats (namely Two Weapon Rend), so 17 DEX is the sweet spot. With Mithral Full Plate none of your DEX is wasted, your armor check penalty is paltry, and you are eligible for L1 barbarian Fast Movement goodness.
The cool thing about this for YOU is that right now you would just be taking Barbarian 1 and could enjoy some power right now. The key is to plan ahead. Some benefits of this build are:
* You should have no trouble maintaining a high AC with Defensive Flurry, 17 DEX, and your gear.
* Improved Balance means that your off-hand weapon can be 1-H instead of light, which opens up some nice options. You can still have the same kind of weapon in each hand to double the benefit of Weapon Focus, etc.
* You get Doublestrike, which in my opinion is one of the most underrated abilities in the game. It's the only way I know of that lets you attack TWICE as a standard action. Combined with Two Weapon Rend, lunge, and Haste, you're still a threat even when you can't do Defensive Flurry.
* Equal Opportunity + Combat Reflexes + Lunge = win. Attack with both of your weapons when you make an attack of opportunity... can do that 4 times per round... with a 10 ft. reach... and you even have the option of RENDING your target!? Tell me that's not awesome.
* Two Weapon Rend is awesome (in case I haven't said it enough). It's even better with this build because you have WAY more opportunities to use it besides just with full attacks. You can also use it with Doublestrike and with AoOs because of Equal Opportunity. It's a beautiful thing.
* 30 ft. movement speed + Haste when needed + Lunge means that nothing escapes you. You can melee far away enemies in 1 turn if you need to... all while wearing full plate.
Also with this build you can still get 14 INT for skills if you absolutely want to do that... but this is what I would recommend as an elf with this particular build:
17 STR
15 DEX (17 elf)
12 CON (10 elf)
10 INT (12 elf)
10 WIS
8 CHA
The starting 17 STR will serve you better than the extra 1 skill pt. per level, but you could still lower the STR to compensate for INT/CON if you feel the need.
If you are worried about damage, gladius allow for either piercing or slashing and counts as a short sword. But I understand kukris for crit range. If you want to burn a feat for sawtooth saber which is a longsword that can be dual wielded like it is a light weapon, which would help damage wise.
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You want a female Elven warrior because you think it's cool? Good! I can think of no better motivation for a player to make his character!
Weapon Master or Two Weapon Warrior archetype. Make Con 12 and Cha 7. Kukri are cool, so is Elven curve blade. Have both! Choose when to use which! Use a chain shirt instead of a breastplate to start. Yes, it's 1 less AC, but your move will be 30-feet instead of 20, and your armour check penalty will be negligible. Upgrade to a mithral breastplate as soon as funds allow, ditto for a composite longbow.
If I were to dip it would be 2 levels of ranger; more skill points, turns desired skills into class skills, one favoured enemy and the combat style feat at level 2 replaces the fighter bonus feat you'd get for 2 levels of fighter anyway. For fluff the ranger training is extremely appropriate for an Elven fighter; think stealth-trained, black-ops special forces. She's an ex-recruit who was trained by the Avant Guard, a top-secret arm of the Elven military whose very existence is denied by those in power!
The most important thing you must do is to create a character that you think is cool!
* * Equal Opportunity + Combat Reflexes + Lunge = win. Attack with both of your weapons when you make an attack of opportunity... can do that 4 times per round... with a 10 ft. reach... and you even have the option of RENDING your target!? Tell me that's not awesome.
You can only lunge when it you turn. The AoO you are taking is when it not your turn.
Lunge (Combat)
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
Kukris are OK when the crit feats (Imp Crit, Stunning Crit, etc) kick in, but pretty feeble until then. And it's a long wait. Without some substantial damage bonus, the extra crits won't make up for the lesser base damage. And TWF already imposes its own feat tax, so you don't want to be lumbered with 2 feat-heavy styles. So go with shortswords and pretend that they're slightly curved and look kewl.
Dip 2 ranger or one urban barbarian by all means, but remember that you'll be losing the favoured class hp. As an elf, your con is pretty poor. So you'll want to make up for that somehow. Possibly Toughness.
If you're looking to dip barbarian, then go with two levels of Titan mauler with two weapon warrior fighter and dual wield elven curve blades. Increase your damage but keep the high crit range finesse-able weapon.
If you're looking to dip barbarian, then go with two levels of Titan mauler with two weapon warrior fighter and dual wield elven curve blades. Increase your damage but keep the high crit range finesse-able weapon.
Possible, yes. Practical, no. They will count as 1H weapons, imposing a -4 penalty attacks made with them when using TWF, and a further -2 for being 2H weapons wielding them in one hand (as per the class feature). -6 to hit is nothing to shake your head at, that's a 30% reduction in your chance to hit an enemy. Would you rather hit on a 5, or an 11? At level 13 (TWF 11, Titan Mauler 2), this is reduced to a -4 penalty, but that's still a hefty penalty, and finally decreases to -3 on each hit at level 17. Not that bad, but it comes WAY to late.
Now, if you're making a high level character, then this is a viable option, but it's seldom characters get past level 12, let alone 17.
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And it's a long wait. Without some substantial damage bonus, the extra crits won't make up for the lesser base damage.
Mathematically, a 1d4 18-20 crit weapon will put out more damage than a 1d6 19-20 crit.
On a similar note, for those advocating dual elven curved blades the -4 penalty to hit is not worth the increase from 1d4 to 1d10 base damage.
If you ask me, I'd take mobile fighter archetype. This is the guy who is going to do backflips in full plate. He gets Leap attack instead, which applies to any weapon group as long as you move 5 feet.
Which is good because you never know when you need to switch up weapons.
The other interesting thing is the cool way it's seemingly melee abilities work equally well for a bow, making an ultimate switch hitter build. Full move and full attack with my bow? yes please.
My advice, don't take TWF at first level. I have always found it's too EARLY. Even tho I know Thematically it's what you want to visualize.
At first level, fight with a long sword and a shield. Take toughness at level 1 and dodge.
Now you have 3 more AC and 3 more HP then you thought you were going to have. you've technically lost +2 to hit without weapon finesse, but you haven't because your main weapon isnt suffering the TWF penalty, so you will still hit with the main just as much as the other build out of the gate.
You now have 14 hp and an AC most non bosses will not be able to hit. If you really wanted to use a buckler instead of a heavy shield you drop one AC but have the ability to switch between Bow and longsword without putting down your shield, or switching to two handing the longsword when you don't need the extra point of ac.
At 2nd level pick up combat reflexes and at 3rd mobility. By fourth take TWF and 5th you could take weapon focus kukri.
dont worry about the shield any more as you are into your TWF build. The point of ac wont have the impact at this level anymore, and you will be moving more often anyway.
Along the line pick up a few Fleet feats to offset the armor if you can afford it. Good fun.
Whoa, more then I expected.
Thanks again for the feedback. I was thinking I might could make it a half elf instead. That way, I could get the same stats (dumping charisma to seven to get con to twelve), get all the same good stuff about being an elf (+perception, elven immunities), and I can take exotic weapon- Wakazashi (which I'm only now aware of). Sawtooth sabre sounded good too, but I don't think our GM has the book it's in, which could be an issue. Also, it would make cross classing barbarian better, which I noticed a few of you advised.
I could carry two around, but instead of taking two weapon fighting at level 1, I could take Weapon Focus and just use one of them. Then if I have the money for one or two masterwork ones at level 2, I could take two weapon fighting then, and my attack bonus might be tolerably high enough to use both of them. Or wait till later.
Kensai magus might be cool, but one of my friends is already doing one. We would be a lot different, but I still think I might rather do something else.
Oh, and I just remembered Elves make decent rangers and rogues too.