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Succubus in a grapple.


Rules Questions

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Mikaze wrote:


Attack from behind, grappler's arms up under the succubus' arms, reaching back and pulling those arms back, reach back under the succubus' wings, push them up, hands on the back of the succubus' head, holding that down, pin to the ground, knee on the back.

Completely non-sexy hold on the monk's part, and nothing the succubus can do on her part.

Heh, not to be too off-topic, but there appears to be an entire library's worth of erotica that you appear to have completely overlooked...


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Ssalarn wrote:
At the end of the day, while there have been a few dissenting voices, I think majority opinion is clear. If you're silly enough to grapple a succubus, you deserve to get screwed.

LOL, I see what you did there Ssalarn...

Totally agree though. Leaping forward into intimate physical contact with a level-draining hypersexual erotica-demon is something to discourage.

Unless you have cameras...

Cheliax

Now once you've pinned the succbi, she may not be able to use her power to drain you. She'll be at your mercy then.

Thoughts?


Ssalarn wrote:
At the end of the day, while there have been a few dissenting voices, I think majority opinion is clear. If you're silly enough to grapple a succubus, you deserve to get screwed.

That one actively hurt as it made its way into my occipital lobe.


10 people marked this as a favorite.

I nominate this thread as "Best thread title of the Month".

Cheliax

7 people marked this as a favorite.

This is putting the Tie Up rules covered under Grappling in a whole new light.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I nominate this thread as "Best thread title of the Month".

Seconded.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


Attack from behind, grappler's arms up under the succubus' arms, reaching back and pulling those arms back, reach back under the succubus' wings, push them up, hands on the back of the succubus' head, holding that down, pin to the ground, knee on the back.

Completely non-sexy hold on the monk's part, and nothing the succubus can do on her part.

Heh, not to be too off-topic, but there appears to be an entire library's worth of erotica that you appear to have completely overlooked...

I was going to say something fairly similar. I think there's an annotated kama sutra diagram that uses almost identical verbage as Mikaze's "non-sexy" hold.

Do succubii have tails? This may be important to the conversation.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Totally agree though. Leaping forward into intimate physical contact with a level-draining hypersexual erotica-demon is something to discourage.

Unless you have cameras...

Heh, I can just see some dirty old man wizard, sealed away in his tower, finding novel new uses for Scry spells, just for situations like these...

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:


Do succubii have tails? This may be important to the conversation.

Dammit they do. There goes that hold.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Do succubii have tails? This may be important to the conversation.

Dammit they do. There goes that hold.

Woohoo! That's a win that everyone gets to enjoy.

Including the monk.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Do succubii have tails? This may be important to the conversation.

Dammit they do. There goes that hold.

Oh crud, now the grappler has some hot tail to grab too... This just gets better... er, I mean WORSE by the minute.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Heh, not to be too off-topic, but there appears to be an entire library's worth of erotica that you appear to have completely overlooked...

Nah, I've just been making my Will save every five minutes to continue acting OOC in the face of this thread's title. Somehow.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Heh, not to be too off-topic, but there appears to be an entire library's worth of erotica that you appear to have completely overlooked...

Nah, I've just been making my Will save every five minutes to continue acting OOC in the face of this thread's title. Somehow.

.... and here I've been deliberately failing mine the whole time... :)

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Do succubii have tails? This may be important to the conversation.

Dammit they do. There goes that hold.
Oh crud, now the grappler has some hot tail to grab too... This just gets better... er, I mean WORSE by the minute.

Do the grappling rules allow you to grab someone by the tail?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

The way I see it, there's two ways to interpret the bolded passage.

1.) The target must have the grappled condition. It doesn't say the succubuss has to have the grappled condition, so it appears the succubuss could Energy Drain any target with the grappled condition.
Furthermore, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss has to be adjacent to the target, so it appears that the succubuss could drain any target to which she has line of effect.
Actually, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss needs line of effect... problematic.

Since, as a general rule, I dislike interpretations that are vague and nonsensical, I'm gonna go ahead and discard this one.

2.) The target must be grappled by the succubuss. This interpretation makes more sense. Several posters have already written that they believe this interpretation is RAI, and since it is also a valid interpretation of RAW, I'm gonna go with this one.

So, in the OP's example, the PC was grappling (not grappled by) the succubuss, so the succubuss could not have used her Energy Drain.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

That does it, I'm taking on a self-imposed challenge to write a female monk vs. succubus fight scene tonight while staying on the high ground and have the succubus entirely in character and make it classy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:
That does it, I'm taking on a self-imposed challenge to write a female monk vs. succubus fight scene tonight while staying on the high ground and have the succubus entirely in character and make it classy.

Will there be snacks?

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Quantum Steve wrote:
Quote:
Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

The way I see it, there's two ways to interpret the bolded passage.

1.) The target must have the grappled condition. It doesn't say the succubuss has to have the grappled condition, so it appears the succubuss could Energy Drain any target with the grappled condition.
Furthermore, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss has to be adjacent to the target, so it appears that the succubuss could drain any target to which she has line of effect.
Actually, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss needs line of effect... problematic.

Since, as a general rule, I dislike interpretations that are vague and nonsensical, I'm gonna go ahead and discard this one.

2.) The target must be grappled by the succubuss. This interpretation makes more sense. Several posters have already written that they believe this interpretation is RAI, and since it is also a valid interpretation of RAW, I'm gonna go with this one.

So, in the OP's example, the PC was grappling (not grappled by) the succubuss, so the succubuss could not have used her Energy Drain.

That post was lucid, well presented, well reasoned (whether I agree with the conclusion or not) and completely serious. Cut it out!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ssalarn wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

<snip>

Oh crud, now the grappler has some hot tail to grab too... This just gets better... er, I mean WORSE by the minute.

Do the grappling rules allow you to grab someone by the tail?

As far as I can tell, the grappling rules were left intentionally vague so you can flavor a grapple as grabbing them anywhere.

Anywhere.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:
That does it, I'm taking on a self-imposed challenge to write a female monk vs. succubus fight scene tonight while staying on the high ground and have the succubus entirely in character and make it classy.

I'll try not to make any succu-bi jokes.

Osirion

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ermehtar wrote:


Heh, I can just see some dirty old man wizard, sealed away in his tower, finding novel new uses for Scry spells, just for situations like these...

I can see some dirty old wizard, sealed away in his tower, summoning succubii.

To verify the functionality of his novel new Scry spells.

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ssalarn wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
That does it, I'm taking on a self-imposed challenge to write a female monk vs. succubus fight scene tonight while staying on the high ground and have the succubus entirely in character and make it classy.
I'll try not to make any succu-bi jokes.

Too late, AD and I covered those on page 1.

Andoran

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Quantum Steve wrote:
Quote:
Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

The way I see it, there's two ways to interpret the bolded passage.

1.) The target must have the grappled condition. It doesn't say the succubuss has to have the grappled condition, so it appears the succubuss could Energy Drain any target with the grappled condition.
Furthermore, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss has to be adjacent to the target, so it appears that the succubuss could drain any target to which she has line of effect.
Actually, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss needs line of effect... problematic.

Since, as a general rule, I dislike interpretations that are vague and nonsensical, I'm gonna go ahead and discard this one.
***

As long as they have the grappled condition, I don't have a problem with the ability being a little vague. Why couldn't a creature grappled and held down by a pair of the succubus' love-slaves be the target of this ability? Or someone tied down to a stone slab? Or someone hog-tied with a ball gag? Or..... I'll get back to you, need to go take a brisk walk.


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I think Ssalarn makes a valid point about slight vagueness with the ability.
As well, there was the bit from the rules regarding the abilities you can use when you're grappled; a succubus's drain ability seems rather reasonable.

Maybe make it a special grapple DC that you have to exceed the succubus's check by? So if you're a superhumanly good grappler, you can perhaps avoid the Drain, but otherwise, well, you should have known what you were getting into.

Also, AD, I'm bringing popcorn and cucumber sandwiches and little smokies.


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KnightDisciple wrote:


Also, AD, I'm bringing popcorn and cucumber sandwiches and little smokies.

Sigh, I am going to have to try to make my will save before commenting on the number of hands required for those snacks KnightD...

Oops... failed.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
KnightDisciple wrote:


Also, AD, I'm bringing popcorn and cucumber sandwiches and little smokies.

Where is this thing going down? I'll bring beer, or soda.

KnightDisciple wrote:


I think Ssalarn makes a valid point about slight vagueness with the ability.
As well, there was the bit from the rules regarding the abilities you can use when you're grappled; a succubus's drain ability seems rather reasonable.

Maybe make it a special grapple DC that you have to exceed the succubus's check by? So if you're a superhumanly good grappler, you can perhaps avoid the Drain, but otherwise, well, you should have known what you were getting into.

Right, I don't think the ability is anywhere outside of anything else you could accomplish during a grapple under any other set of conditions, and it seems unnecessary to limit this ability beyond what is explicitly stated in the description which is "An unwilling victim must be grappled..." and that the victim must be "lured into an act of passion, such as a kiss". As long as there's skin contact and the vitcim has the grappled condition, it seems groovy to me.

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Quantum Steve wrote:
Quote:
Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

The way I see it, there's two ways to interpret the bolded passage.

1.) The target must have the grappled condition. It doesn't say the succubuss has to have the grappled condition, so it appears the succubuss could Energy Drain any target with the grappled condition.
Furthermore, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss has to be adjacent to the target, so it appears that the succubuss could drain any target to which she has line of effect.
Actually, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss needs line of effect... problematic.

Since, as a general rule, I dislike interpretations that are vague and nonsensical, I'm gonna go ahead and discard this one.
***

It seems to me that this ruling would mean that a succubus blows when she is the one being grappled and if she the one grappling then she sucks. So either way it is a win win.


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
KnightDisciple wrote:


Also, AD, I'm bringing popcorn and cucumber sandwiches and little smokies.

Sigh, I am going to have to try to make my will save before commenting on the number of hands required for those snacks KnightD...

Oops... failed.

Well there's a table, obviously. I just want to provide options!

Ssalarn wrote:
KnightDisciple wrote:


Also, AD, I'm bringing popcorn and cucumber sandwiches and little smokies.
Where is this thing going down? I'll bring beer, or soda.

I'm assuming Mikaze is doing a test reading for a target audience later? Wherever that is!

Bring some bottled water, too.

Ssalarn wrote:
Right, I don't think the ability is anywhere outside of anything else you could accomplish during a grapple under any other set of conditions, and it seems unnecessary to limit this ability beyond what is explicitly stated in the description which is "An unwilling victim must be grappled..." and that the victim must be "lured into an act of passion, such as a kiss". As long as there's skin contact and the vitcim has the grappled condition, it seems groovy to me.

Exactly.

Cheliax

6 people marked this as a favorite.

At this point there are succubi, female druids, bears, incubi and monks of both genders involved in this, so I really don't see how anyone would be in favor of the "no way the succubus could pull this off" interpretation.

We have something for everyone.


I'd probably let you avoid the succubus' drain if you won the grapple by 20 or more, if and only if you had some idea that her 'activities of passion' were dangerous moreso than the usual thrashing, bashing, twisting, etc that goes under the usual rubric of 'grappling'. Otherwise, you grapple her and she's going to do SOMETHING that drains a level. All the safe positions described in this thread are pins, not grapples. My usual rule of thumb for what constitutes an 'activity of passion' is anything that would REALLY piss off my wife if done to or with another woman. Anyone who has any experience grappling with a woman will...ahem...KNOW...that avoiding any such contact while grappling her is damned near impossible. Fortunately such avoidance isn't usually the desire either on either part.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Quote:
Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

The way I see it, there's two ways to interpret the bolded passage.

1.) The target must have the grappled condition. It doesn't say the succubuss has to have the grappled condition, so it appears the succubuss could Energy Drain any target with the grappled condition.
Furthermore, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss has to be adjacent to the target, so it appears that the succubuss could drain any target to which she has line of effect.
Actually, the ability is non-specific as to whether the succubuss needs line of effect... problematic.

Since, as a general rule, I dislike interpretations that are vague and nonsensical, I'm gonna go ahead and discard this one.

2.) The target must be grappled by the succubuss. This interpretation makes more sense. Several posters have already written that they believe this interpretation is RAI, and since it is also a valid interpretation of RAW, I'm gonna go with this one.

So, in the OP's example, the PC was grappling (not grappled by) the succubuss, so the succubuss could not have used her Energy Drain.

Interpretation 1.) doesn't look that vague. The line of effect issue would not come into play, because even if you took advantage of the lack of a stated range, the succubus is not going to lure an unwilling grappled victim into an "act of passion, such as a kiss" from across the room. Conceivably, the succubus might be able induce desire from any distance at which the victim could perceive her, but that does not equate to an act on the victim's part or an act in which the victim is a part. It doesn't say that the act of passion the victim is "lured into" has to be initiated by the victim, but as the victim has to be a part of the act, I'd think bodily contact would almost always be required. I suppose in the case of an unwilling grappled victim with BDSM tendencies, a whip could be employed in some instances.

It talks about the grappled condition being required for unwilling victims. What about unwitting victims? Someone in a bawdy house might get a lapful of squirmy level-draining fun that never requires a kiss or a grapple. Afterwards, the weakness and light-headedness might be rationalized away as the result of, well, something else entirely.


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Lamontius wrote:


At this point there are succubi, female druids, bears, incubi and monks of both genders involved in this, so I really don't see how anyone would be in favor of the "no way the succubus could pull this off" interpretation.

We have something for everyone.

Well, I haven't seen the alchemist with the tentacle evolution yet....


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This = Best Thread

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


At this point there are succubi, female druids, bears, incubi and monks of both genders involved in this, so I really don't see how anyone would be in favor of the "no way the succubus could pull this off" interpretation.

We have something for everyone.

Well, I haven't seen the alchemist with the tentacle evolution yet....

no no no no no no

I'd rather have the bear involved, at that point.

Andoran

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


At this point there are succubi, female druids, bears, incubi and monks of both genders involved in this, so I really don't see how anyone would be in favor of the "no way the succubus could pull this off" interpretation.

We have something for everyone.

Well, I haven't seen the alchemist with the tentacle evolution yet....

I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lamontius wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


At this point there are succubi, female druids, bears, incubi and monks of both genders involved in this, so I really don't see how anyone would be in favor of the "no way the succubus could pull this off" interpretation.

We have something for everyone.

Well, I haven't seen the alchemist with the tentacle evolution yet....

no no no no no no

I'd rather have the bear involved, at that point.

Wasn't there a Reaper "Sophie: Christmas ornament" miniature like that?

Andoran

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EWHM wrote:
*** My usual rule of thumb for what constitutes an 'activity of passion' is anything that would REALLY piss off my wife if done to or with another woman. Anyone who has any experience grappling with a woman will...ahem...KNOW...that avoiding any such contact while grappling her is damned near impossible. ***

Word man. It is virtually impossible to grapple an atractive person without doing something that resembles an "act of passion". That virtually impossible pretty much becomes impossible when the other person is actively trying to initiate said "act of passion".

I mean heck, I can barely cuddle on the couch without simulating an "act of passion".... Or skipping the simulating and jumping straight to....

Anyways, those who grapple sexy succubi should be ready to be left feeling drained..... And hopefully satisfied.


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11 more to go and we can call this done...

Cheliax

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no no no how are we taking something worthy of discussion like this succubus and lady druid all rolling around with each other and instead turning it into tentacles and grapple checks and vague RAW/RAI interpretations and oh man guys don't let me down now.


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Lamontius wrote:


no no no how are we taking something worthy of discussion like this succubus and lady druid all rolling around with each other and instead turning it into tentacles and grapple checks and vague RAW/RAI interpretations and oh man guys don't let me down now.

You're looking at this all wrong!

We're talking about both, man. We're, ah, satisfying everyone!

People who look in here for crunchy peanut butter find it!
People looking for creamy peanut butter: Find it!

Everyone goes away both happy and having eaten peanut butter.

Except for whoever gets drained by the succubus. They don't get peanut butter.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lamontius wrote:


no no no how are we taking something worthy of discussion like this succubus and lady druid all rolling around with each other and instead turning it into tentacles and grapple checks and vague RAW/RAI interpretations and oh man guys don't let me down now.

OK, so we need to know if this lady druid was all buff while she was bare.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


no no no how are we taking something worthy of discussion like this succubus and lady druid all rolling around with each other and instead turning it into tentacles and grapple checks and vague RAW/RAI interpretations and oh man guys don't let me down now.
OK, so we need to know if this lady druid was all buff while she was bare.

Bears are usually pretty buff, right?

Andoran

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KnightDisciple wrote:

You're looking at this all wrong!

We're talking about both, man. We're, ah, satisfying everyone!

***

That's what's called "The Succubus Approach". You try to be a part of as many grapples as you can, and, if you stretch things just right, everyone goes home drained and satisfied.

Andoran

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KnightDisciple wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


no no no how are we taking something worthy of discussion like this succubus and lady druid all rolling around with each other and instead turning it into tentacles and grapple checks and vague RAW/RAI interpretations and oh man guys don't let me down now.
OK, so we need to know if this lady druid was all buff while she was bare.
Bears are usually pretty buff, right?

The buff bare druid buffed her bear form?

Silver Crusade

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Nearly five hours ago several people on this thread suggested that pictures would help them adjudicate the action. I've got an Internet, so I wondered if they had any pictures of succubi/grapples....

....sorry I've been so long. What was the question again?

Andoran

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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Nearly five hours ago several people on this thread suggested that pictures would help them adjudicate the action. I've got an Internet, so I wondered if they had any pictures of succubi/grapples....

....sorry I've been so long. What was the question again?

Go ahead and Google "Succubus grapple" and let us know what comes of it.

Or don't.

Silver Crusade

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...Oh, yes! I remember! A grappler counts as being in a grapple, so some sucking (of levels) is a definate danger! You could pin the succubus and avoid an act of passion...if you really wanted...

Anyway, about the research, it seems that the pursuit of science is it's own reward...!

Cheliax

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No no no I think the whole point was that he has spent the last five hours doing exactly that and man why am I explaining jokes


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Ssalarn wrote:
KnightDisciple wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lamontius wrote:


no no no how are we taking something worthy of discussion like this succubus and lady druid all rolling around with each other and instead turning it into tentacles and grapple checks and vague RAW/RAI interpretations and oh man guys don't let me down now.
OK, so we need to know if this lady druid was all buff while she was bare.
Bears are usually pretty buff, right?
The buff bare druid buffed her bear form?

Not enough buff!

Remember, the bear is in the buff! And buff in a way disctinct from the buff-ness of the druid's bare non-bear form!

So:
The buff bare druid buffed her buff bear-in-the-buff form.

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