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Yet another roguish assassin like build question


Advice


OK working on this guy and have some ideas to throw at you. Probably starting lv 2 if I know my DM. Im thinking it will be either in Crimson Throne path or homemade game.

Torn between Human and Tiefling. Human for the +1 feat and +1 hp/skill pt (+2 into dex) but then Tiefling for the +2 additional int/message ability (tiefling variant). I see the guy as a lurker to the party...shadowing the party on the rooftops, etc and communicating via the message ability. When it hits the fan, can descend with SA.

Wont be Evil so assassin is out. Not that I feel its worth having anyway with the pitiful DA save. Probably looking LN or TN.

I want him to be able to dump considerable damage with the SA as to take out the glass cannon NPCs lurking in the rear like wizards and such. For this I am going at least 1 level in Knife Master. Personally I think the +2 on SA dice is greater than the stand alone weapon damage of say using a sword or rapier. Plus I can weapon finesse the kukri for twf so having the same weapon helps. However, there will be times he has to deal with more heavily armored targets so having crap BAB would not be good.

I am currently proposing a homebrew PrC similar to the shadowdancer PrC but adding continual SA progression at cost of some abilities. I personally think leaving the SA out of the shadowdancer PrC made the PrC just worthless to rogues. The proposed PrC would require +5 BAB and +2d6 SA damage as part of the pre-req

So if we start with Rogue 1 (knife master) it gives us 0 BAB but 1d6 SA

So my notes:

Ftr 4 (weapon master:dagger): +4 BAB, 3 free feats. Ability to get +3/+3 with gloves of dueling due to weapon training ability from lv 3 WM, crappy +4/1/1 saves. This would probably require 1 lv ninja for the additional 1d6 SA to meet the pre-req

Monk 2: +1 BAB, 2 free feats, free unarmed strike (deflect arrows?), +10 move speed, evasion, +3/+3/+3 saves. Clearly would need at least 1 lv ninja to meet SA pre-req and then 4 lvs ftr. This is the longest route to meet the pre-req level wise but does give good saves and some neat tricks.

Ranger 3: +3 BAB, TWF free, +2/+2 FE vs humans, favored terrain (city), +3/+3/+1 saves. I would guess having to supplement with ftr 2 for the BAB along with ninja 1 to meet SA pre req.

additional Rogue 2 (Knifemaster): +2 BAB, +1d6 SA, evasion, Conceal light weap bonus, +1 rogue talent (Underhanded), 1/3/1 saves. Would have to supplement with ftr 3 or ranger 3.

Additional Ninja 2: Only benefit I see with ninja is the ability to get ki pts for tricks or +1 attack action if burning 1 ki (nice for opening round when you arent hasted) and the additional 1d6 SA.

Thoughts?


Also note, the Ftr 4 would give weap spec which is good for SA + crit dmg

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Unless your GM is extremely lenient, you can not have Rogue and Ninja levels, because Ninja is a variant of the Rogue class.

You need to post your variant shadowdancer because your build is focused on getting there and readers can't tell if it is worthwile. From the information provided, I don't see why you wouldn't just take a straight ranger who skulks on the rooftops and uses archery to attack the enemy squishies.


Shadow Dancer is a one-level class. Possibly two if you need the darkvision.

Don't over-estimate sneak attack damage. It's nice, but you don't get it all the time.

My advice is to build a character who's decent without it, and then can do better when they do get it. Most terrible rogues overinvest in dex and intelligence, and then end up standing there with a dagger doing d4 +1 against a barbarian or other sneak attack immune opponent.


rkraus2 wrote:

Shadow Dancer is a one-level class. Possibly two if you need the darkvision.

Don't over-estimate sneak attack damage. It's nice, but you don't get it all the time.

My advice is to build a character who's decent without it, and then can do better when they do get it. Most terrible rogues overinvest in dex and intelligence, and then end up standing there with a dagger doing d4 +1 against a barbarian or other sneak attack immune opponent.

I agree with you there. However, Shadowdancer has dodge and mobility pre -reqs that are really not useful imo to the build. Quite a cost for a 2 level dip into a PrC. The idea is to NOT get hit, do the damage, and get out. Clearly one must pick his targets when looking at the unbathed hairy dude with the greataxe.


sieylianna wrote:

Unless your GM is extremely lenient, you can not have Rogue and Ninja levels, because Ninja is a variant of the Rogue class.

You need to post your variant shadowdancer because your build is focused on getting there and readers can't tell if it is worthwile. From the information provided, I don't see why you wouldn't just take a straight ranger who skulks on the rooftops and uses archery to attack the enemy squishies.

Im not a great archery fan. I know, its counterproductive but something in me just prefers the thought of shoving something sharp between a targets ribs and feeling him jerk rather than popping him from 30 ft away.


Bump for some advice!


And GM did not allow rogue + ninja


rkraus2 wrote:

Shadow Dancer is a one-level class. Possibly two if you need the darkvision.

Don't over-estimate sneak attack damage. It's nice, but you don't get it all the time.

My advice is to build a character who's decent without it, and then can do better when they do get it. Most terrible rogues overinvest in dex and intelligence, and then end up standing there with a dagger doing d4 +1 against a barbarian or other sneak attack immune opponent.

I liked the artemis enteri build rogue 4, ranger 2, ftr ++ but that does leave a lot with the assassin concept to be desired. I may wind up going that route if the GM dumps my PrC idea.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

If you are set on attacking the enemy's rear, you will rarely have a flank, so you are looking at a single attack with sneak attack before they know you are there. Ninja works better there due to Vanish, but I have serious doubts about making this a viable character. (I don't know anything about how your GM runs his game, so it may not be as bad as I picture).


Tiefling with Blinding Sneak Attack. Basically, whenever YOU are within the area of magical darkness, if you hit a target with a sneak attack they are blinded with a DC 10+sneak attack damage dealt FORT. Save.

With a knife master at level 20, thatsan average DC of 55.

As soon as they are blind, they are flat footed for the rest of the round, which means full round sneak attack.

Luckily, Darkness is a 1 min/ level spell, so it's quite easy to cast it before combat, get your sneak attack one way or another, and then just keep laying them down.


Shadowstalker PrC

Role: A Shadow Stalker taps the power of shadows to deceive and hinder the opponents and weaves darkness itself into tools and weapons to be used as needed.

Alignement: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.

Skills per Level : 6 + Int Mod

Class Skills: The Shadow Stalker’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [local] (Int), Knowledge [planes] (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Pre-reqs - BAB + 5, Stealth rank 5, Acrobatic rank 5, Sneak Attack 2d6

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +1 +0 Hide in plain sight,darkvision, sneak attack +1d6
2nd +1 +1 +1 +1 Create Darkness, uncanny dodge

3rd +2 +1 +2 +1 Shadow illusion, sneak attack + 1d6

4th +3 +1 +2 +1 Shadow jump 40 ft.

5th +3 +2 +3 +2 Improved uncanny dodge, sneak attack + 1d6

6th +4 +2 +3 +2 Shadow jump 80 ft.

7th +5 +2 +4 +2 Improved evasion, Sneak attack + 1d6

8th +6 +3 +4 +3 Shadow Tentacles, Shadow jump 160 ft.

9th +6 +3 +5 +3 Sneak attack +1d6
10th +7 +3 +5 +3 Shadow mastery, shadow jump 320 ft.,

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A Shadowstalker can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Darkvision (Su): This ability grants darkvision of 60 foot range. If the Shadowstalker already possesses darkvision, then the range increases to 90 foot.

Create Darkness (Su): This functions as the Darkness spell, lowering the light level in a 20 foot radius by one level. This ability is useable int mod times per day and can be performed as a swift action.

Uncanny Dodge: At 2nd level, a shadowstalker cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A shadowstalker with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.
If a shadowdancer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Shadow Illusion (Su): When a shadowstalker reaches 3rd level, she can create visual shadowy illusions. This ability functions as silent image, using the shadowstalker's level as the caster level. The DC save is Intelligent based.

Shadow Jump (Su): At 4th level, a Shadowstalker gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowstalker can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowstalker can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 6th, 160 feet at 8th, and 320 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Su): At 5th level and higher, shadowstalker can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the shadowstalker by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has shadowstalker levels.
If a character already has uncanny dodge from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Shadow Tentacles (Su): This functions as the wizard spell except uses total level instead of caster level for CMB. This ability can be used int mod per day and last 1 round per level unless dispelled.

Shadow Mastery (Su): At 10th level, whenever a shadowstalker is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds whether said foe exits the dim lit area or not.


sieylianna wrote:
If you are set on attacking the enemy's rear, you will rarely have a flank, so you are looking at a single attack with sneak attack before they know you are there. Ninja works better there due to Vanish, but I have serious doubts about making this a viable character. (I don't know anything about how your GM runs his game, so it may not be as bad as I picture).

Actually you can full attack with SA which is anywhere from 2-5 SAs in the opening round (pending on having haste and various 2 weapon fighting feats). If there is a cloth wearing character that can live through five sneak attack strikes, I would have to see it to believe it.

Lantern Lodge

You could try either the shadowdancer or assassin PrC archetypes I made HERE

or TWF will always be inferior to 2H, however if you're bent on it you could try this:

BUILD:
Human, 20 bp buy Ranger (Urban) 3/Barbarian (Urban) 1/Fighter (TWW) 6
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha 7

lvl 1 Ranger (Urban): Weapon Finesse
lvl 2 Ranger (Urban): TWF
lvl 3 Ranger (Urban): Pirahna Strike, Now you can trapfind like a rogue
lvl 4 Barbarian (Urban): Now you can boost dex with rage
lvl 5: Fighter (Two weapon warrior): Weapon Focus (Kukri), Extra Rage
lvl 6: Fighter (Two weapon warrior): Improved TWF
lvl 7: Fighter (Two weapon warrior): Extra Rage
lvl 8: Fighter (Two weapon warrior): Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
lvl 9 Fighter (Two weapon warrior): Improved Critical (Kukri)
lvl 10: Fighter (Two weapon warrior): Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)

With this build you'll have fantastic skills paired with full BAB. By level 5 you'll have 12 rounds of +4 dex via controlled rage. By level 7 that's 18, more than enough to get through a day of adventuring (if you find 12 is enough then get a different feat).

It's critical you get the agile enchantment on both kukris and use proper TWF tactics (let the enemy come to you). That way they make one attack and you retaliate with a full attack.

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