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Why do people need to cheat in games such as Pathfinder?


Gamer Talk

Silver Crusade

The term I am hearing now is "creative interpretation" but I still call it cheating because that's what it is and I don't understand why people need to cheat at a role-playing game. Whether it's fudging the dice, loop holes, interpreting rules in an abusive way, writing things down wrong on purpose etc is something that I really crack down on because I don't want them in my games. I want my games to be fair and I want everyone to be on the same page. If your character dies, or loses his weapon or whatever then that's a part of the game and should be accepted. I mean I could understand if this was an actual game of life and death but it's not, it's a fictitious game that is played for fun.

I have had a few player's that cheated in games that I ran and games that I played in and I always called them out on it. We had one guy that cheated so much that we began checking his character sheet to make sure he wasn't cheating.

I just don't get the need for cheating.


shallowsoul wrote:
I just don't get the need for cheating.

It's a game and some people will do anything to "win".

Luckily, when I have my DM panties on, I just carve them out an extra slice of abuse :)

Osirion

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Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

From my experiences:
Many players have a mental image of their character. While they know that a random element is connected with the game and with the abilities and action of their character (and are fine with that), sometimes this random element threatens the image of their character (not only for the 'my character is the superduperhero crowd, if you make bad rolls for an entire evening whenever the ability you see as your characters 'thing' is involved it can start to be tedious). Some accept that fate, some don't.

Silver Crusade

feytharn wrote:

From my experiences:

Many players have a mental image of their character. While they know that a random element is connected with the game and with the abilities and action of their character (and are fine with that), sometimes this random element threatens the image of their character (not only for the 'my character is the superduperhero crowd, if you make bad rolls for an entire evening whenever the ability you see as your characters 'thing' is involved it can start to be tedious). Some accept that fate, some don't.

The ones that don't, need to learn to accept it. That would be like not accepting when you land on your friend's Boardwalk and you have to cough up the money.

Osirion

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Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Sorry, that idiom is lost on me, I am not a native speaker and I can't find it anywhere.

I agree that cheating isn't good, but you asked for possible reasons in a game that isn't about winning, I provided a perspective.

For many players, playing and imagining their character is the most fun element of the game. All other elements, challeging combat, facing overwhelming odds and survive, character building etc. come second.

For them, possibly a great deal of fun is lost when constant bad luck (and I have seen the same player rolling in the lower third of possible numbers for more than one session, using different dice) makes their character just look like the comic relief. I don't say I would start cheating in that situation, but I certainly understand the frustration that leads to it.


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I think too many players confuse the idea of succeeding with winning.

Silver Crusade

feytharn wrote:

Sorry, that idiom is lost on me, I am not a native speaker and I can't find it anywhere.

I agree that cheating isn't good, but you asked for possible reasons in a game that isn't about winning, I provided a perspective.

For many players, playing and imagining their character is the most fun element of the game. All other elements, challeging combat, facing overwhelming odds and survive, character building etc. come second.

For them, possibly a great deal of fun is lost when constant bad luck (and I have seen the same player rolling in the lower third of possible numbers for more than one session, using different dice) makes their character just look like the comic relief. I don't say I would start cheating in that situation, but I certainly understand the frustration that leads to it.

Boardwalk is from the game Monopoly and if you land on it during the game you have to pay the person who owns it a lot of money.

Silver Crusade

feytharn wrote:


For them, possibly a great deal of fun is lost when constant bad luck (and I have seen the same player rolling in the lower third of possible numbers for more than one session, using different dice) makes their character just look like the comic relief. I don't say I would start cheating in that situation, but I certainly understand the frustration that leads to it.

Unfortunately the "I'm losing so I'm not having fun" isn't a good excuse. Bad rolls happen. How would you feel if the DM decided to make some calls in favor of the monsters because he was rolling bad that night? Player's shouldn't get any special treatment any more so than the DM. Not all heroes are consistent with being heroic on a 24/7 basis, nor is this a book.

What would happen if you were playing football and you told the ref that you weren't having fun because your team was losing, or they just couldn't get those kicks into the goal that night so you want him to start deciding in your favor? He would probably laugh and hand you a red card for asking something so absurd?

Osirion

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Ah, thank you.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Utilizing a loophole if it is RAW would not be cheating, IMO, though for a home game one could clarify that said loophole would not be allowed for that specific game. Fudging rolls, intentionally listing incorrect info, etc though would be and while I may be able to understand the rational if one has rolled for crap all night long there is still no real justification for a player to do so.

As a GM though, fudging rolls, especially if the party is getting their collective butt kicked is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it helps build on the suspence or "cinematic" during a final confrontation. That said, doing so should be rare at best.

Silver Crusade

zylphryx wrote:

Utilizing a loophole if it is RAW would not be cheating, IMO, though for a home game one could clarify that said loophole would not be allowed for that specific game. Fudging rolls, intentionally listing incorrect info, etc though would be and while I may be able to understand the rational if one has rolled for crap all night long there is still no real justification for a player to do so.

As a GM though, fudging rolls, especially if the party is getting their collective butt kicked is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it helps build on the suspence or "cinematic" during a final confrontation. That said, doing so should be rare at best.

When you know for sure that it's a mistake and you continue to use it then that's still considered cheating in my opinion. You still have a moral obligation to play fair.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One reason I've seen is that their GM has shown that they don't like to play fair, so to preserve the characters the players have been enjoying, they cheat.

Osirion

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Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
feytharn wrote:


For them, possibly a great deal of fun is lost when constant bad luck (and I have seen the same player rolling in the lower third of possible numbers for more than one session, using different dice) makes their character just look like the comic relief. I don't say I would start cheating in that situation, but I certainly understand the frustration that leads to it.

Unfortunately the "I'm losing so I'm not having fun" isn't a good excuse. Bad rolls happen. How would you feel if the DM decided to make some calls in favor of the monsters because he was rolling bad that night? Player's shouldn't get any special treatment any more so than the DM. Not all heroes are consistent with being heroic on a 24/7 basis, nor is this a book.

What would happen if you were playing football and you told the ref that you weren't having fun because your team was losing, or they just couldn't get those kicks into the goal that night so you want him to start deciding in your favor? He would probably laugh and hand you a red card for asking something so absurd?

Ah, get it. You weren't really interested in the question you asked, you wanted to rant about cheating. Go on then, I have nothing to add there ;-)

Edit:
One small thing though - comparisons to monopoly or football aren't really insightful since those are competitive games where the reasons for cheating are pretty clear cut. Pathfinder isn't.

Silver Crusade

feytharn wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
feytharn wrote:


For them, possibly a great deal of fun is lost when constant bad luck (and I have seen the same player rolling in the lower third of possible numbers for more than one session, using different dice) makes their character just look like the comic relief. I don't say I would start cheating in that situation, but I certainly understand the frustration that leads to it.

Unfortunately the "I'm losing so I'm not having fun" isn't a good excuse. Bad rolls happen. How would you feel if the DM decided to make some calls in favor of the monsters because he was rolling bad that night? Player's shouldn't get any special treatment any more so than the DM. Not all heroes are consistent with being heroic on a 24/7 basis, nor is this a book.

What would happen if you were playing football and you told the ref that you weren't having fun because your team was losing, or they just couldn't get those kicks into the goal that night so you want him to start deciding in your favor? He would probably laugh and hand you a red card for asking something so absurd?

Ah, get it. You weren't really interested in the question you asked, you wanted to rant about cheating. Go on then, I have nothing to add there ;-)

Edit:
One small thing though - comparisons to monopoly or football aren't really insightful since those are competitive games where the reasons for cheating are pretty clear cut. Pathfinder isn't.

If you think about it people look at role playing games as being competitive. They see themselves versus the DM and his monsters. Being a competitive game or sport is still no reason to cheat so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Notice how I never said anything about asking for an opinion, I just made a statement.


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shallowsoul wrote:


Notice how I never said anything about asking for an opinion, I just made a statement.

If you weren't asking for other people's opinion, maybe you shouldn't have titled the thread "Why do people need to cheat in games such as Pathfinder?"


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
If you think about it people look at role playing games as being competitive. They see themselves versus the DM and his monsters.

When I have seen someone cheat, it is almost always tied to this. I think you have the core answer in this statement.

Silver Crusade

It's surprising the lengths people will go to for pretend items and such.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
zylphryx wrote:

Utilizing a loophole if it is RAW would not be cheating, IMO, though for a home game one could clarify that said loophole would not be allowed for that specific game. Fudging rolls, intentionally listing incorrect info, etc though would be and while I may be able to understand the rational if one has rolled for crap all night long there is still no real justification for a player to do so.

As a GM though, fudging rolls, especially if the party is getting their collective butt kicked is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it helps build on the suspence or "cinematic" during a final confrontation. That said, doing so should be rare at best.

When you know for sure that it's a mistake and you continue to use it then that's still considered cheating in my opinion. You still have a moral obligation to play fair.

In order for someone to cheat, there must be a violation of the rules. If the loop hole is in RAW, then the use of it does not break any rules. This point has been raised numerous times in the PFS threads, so I won't rehash it here.

To reiterate though, for a home game, you can make clear that a given rule or loop hole will not be allowed. If at that point a player uses the rule or loop hole, then yeah, that would be cheating.


shallowsoul wrote:

The term I am hearing now is "creative interpretation" but I still call it cheating because that's what it is and I don't understand why people need to cheat at a role-playing game. Whether it's fudging the dice, loop holes, interpreting rules in an abusive way, writing things down wrong on purpose etc is something that I really crack down on because I don't want them in my games. I want my games to be fair and I want everyone to be on the same page. If your character dies, or loses his weapon or whatever then that's a part of the game and should be accepted. I mean I could understand if this was an actual game of life and death but it's not, it's a fictitious game that is played for fun.

I have had a few player's that cheated in games that I ran and games that I played in and I always called them out on it. We had one guy that cheated so much that we began checking his character sheet to make sure he wasn't cheating.

I just don't get the need for cheating.

I can tell you why from personal experience this weekend. It's because some players (and GMs!) think the game is about player vs GM. You have some GMs who will cheat, break the rules for NPCs, and basically invalidate your PCs actions to "put you in your place" when you do something they don't want you to do.

Why wouldn't the player cheat when the GM is blatantly cheating? Personally, I would just leave the game / campaign. Anyway, that's one reason.

Osirion

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
feytharn wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
feytharn wrote:


For them, possibly a great deal of fun is lost when constant bad luck (and I have seen the same player rolling in the lower third of possible numbers for more than one session, using different dice) makes their character just look like the comic relief. I don't say I would start cheating in that situation, but I certainly understand the frustration that leads to it.

Unfortunately the "I'm losing so I'm not having fun" isn't a good excuse. Bad rolls happen. How would you feel if the DM decided to make some calls in favor of the monsters because he was rolling bad that night? Player's shouldn't get any special treatment any more so than the DM. Not all heroes are consistent with being heroic on a 24/7 basis, nor is this a book.

What would happen if you were playing football and you told the ref that you weren't having fun because your team was losing, or they just couldn't get those kicks into the goal that night so you want him to start deciding in your favor? He would probably laugh and hand you a red card for asking something so absurd?

Ah, get it. You weren't really interested in the question you asked, you wanted to rant about cheating. Go on then, I have nothing to add there ;-)

Edit:
One small thing though - comparisons to monopoly or football aren't really insightful since those are competitive games where the reasons for cheating are pretty clear cut. Pathfinder isn't.

If you think about it people look at role playing games as being competitive. They see themselves versus the DM and his monsters. Being a competitive game or sport is still no reason to cheat so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Notice how I never said anything about asking for an opinion, I just made a statement.

I am not trying to say a game being competitive is a reason to cheat. I said the reasons to cheat in competitive games are clear cut (aka people cheat to win). And I daresay people taking RPGs as competitive play a very different game then I am, thus I cannot speak for that mindset.

The title of this thread is a question. I took that literally - to literally as I have seen now.


Player in my group has cheated in the past, because he often rolls poorly in situations he wants his character to excel. What has helped to curb this effect is helping him understand "taking 10".

Another player has problems with his vision of his character after a few days of gaming, and will adjust the skills to reflect his new vision based on RP. What has helped with this, is discussing his concept before and during character creation, and just letting him adjust skills that seemed a good idea at first, but notsomuch after the first few nights.

As a DM, especially during the early levels, I adjust die rolls during combat to help the PC's survive. As level progression increases, I continue rolling behind the screen during minor battles, and in front of the screen during BBEG battles. Later in the campaign, at higher levels, I just roll everything in front of screen or have a series of prerolls I use. (for those times I don't want the players to hear dice).

None of this stops cheating. But, it does curb it for players at my table.

I think people cheat because they think it will make the game more fun.

The player that roll cheats, does it because failure at a specialty would make the game less fun for him. The player that cheats on character sheet, does it because his original ideas were not fun for him. I do it as a DM, because I think it is more fun for characters to survive the lowest levels or against minions early on in a game where an unlucky crit can just kill most any build.

As for Rules Lawyering, well, never have considered that as cheating in home games. I do not do society games. Nor have I hosted a table for a convention. I have done open games at gaming stores, but just like a home game, GM rules supersede any printed rule or player interpretation of said rule.

This is not a defense of cheating, just answering your question. I actually don't think anyone defends it, we just have different methods of handling different cases.

Greg


danielc wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
If you think about it people look at role playing games as being competitive. They see themselves versus the DM and his monsters.
When I have seen someone cheat, it is almost always tied to this. I think you have the core answer in this statement.

I think there is a fair amount of competition (or peer pressure) between players too, much more, in my experience, than between PCs vs DM.

Even if this competition is not direct, we all dislike to be the "weak element" of the group. Some players hate it to the point of cheating their success, which appears like a lesser evil. In addition, some players have an exaggerated opinion of what "weak contribution" is, even if they don't feel the need to put themselves above their peers.


I have always believed that players cheat because GM's cheat, and GM's cheat because most RPGs had writers that wrote "go ahead and cheat, it isn't really cheating because you are allowed to for being the GM" or worse in my opinion "go ahead and cheat if you think it makes the game more fun".

Naturally, with the game outright saying that cheating is fine if done for the "right reason" players at the table on either side of the screen are going to start listening to the game and cheating when they feel it is the "right reason" to do so - with the definition of "right reason" ranging from making sure a character that the player is invested in that has a very central position in the plot-line doesn't die until some arbitrary "good death" comes along to making sure nothing doesn't go in your character's favor.

Me, I don't have cheaters at my table - I believe it to be because I never cheat, even when a game tells me I "should", and I make sure that all my players know that... except when we play Munchkin.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Quote:
Why do people need to cheat in games such as Pathfinder?

Dunno.


I've seen cheating done at the table, but I think finding the reasoning behind it depends on the person doing it. I've only seen one major, blatant cheater, and his personality lent to his motivations.

The cheater in question is a good friend of mine, but the guy is very insecure. He's always felt "less cool" than the rest of us, and would come up with outlandish stories to try and make himself seem more interesting. In our games, he'd cheat on skill checks and combat rolls, sometimes even on his stats in character creation, so that his characters were more successful.

The weird thing is, he is not a competitive guy. When he cheated in-game, it wasn't to outdo anyone or steal the spotlight, he'd fudge die rolls just to be successful and have everyone like his characters more. So, while cheating is frowned upon(and he has been caught and dealt with), we almost felt bad catching him on it.

Qadira

If a player is cheating it's because is expectations fo the game are not being realised and he decides to go ahead and change the game to better fit what he sees as "fun". If a player does so once or twice I'm fine with it - as a GM I sometimes fudge rolls (in either direction) in order to make the game more fun, so it is acceptable that players would be tempted to do so as well.

However if a player is ALWAYS cheating then he is playing the wrong game - find a game that better fits with his idea of fun. For example, play Exalted instead of Pathfinder.

Silver Crusade

I've encountered one player who felt the GM's rule was "wrong". So he decided to just "change" it. In his mind, the reason for the ruling "against him" was not logical.

This lead to cheating.

This also was one of the straws on the camel's back...it lead me to enjoying the sessions where he was involved even LESS than I did. (The guy also had some social skills issues.)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

shallowsoul: you asked a question.

the title of the thread, as written by shallowsoul wrote:
Why do people need to cheat in games such as Pathfinder?

Thus, clearly...

shallowsoul wrote:
Notice how I never said anything about asking for an opinion, I just made a statement.

... is incorrect. That's why you're receiving opinions.

shallowsoul wrote:
I mean I could understand if this was an actual game of life and death but it's not, it's a fictitious game that is played for fun.

Emphasis mine. And there you go: the 'problem' is that what you find fun not everyone does.

Further, what you define as cheating, not everyone does.

Plus, ...

shallowsoul wrote:
The ones that don't, need to learn to accept it. That would be like not accepting when you land on your friend's Boardwalk and you have to cough up the money.

... is entirely "onetruewayism". You are literally saying that people who don't do it like you are "doing it wrong". That's bad.

But, to go by the rules for you, let's look at the 3.5 DMG.

The 3.5 DMG, pg 18 wrote:


DM CHEATING AND PLAYER PERCEPTIONS
Terrible things can happen in the game because the dice just go awry. Everything might be going fine, when suddenly the players have a run of bad luck. A round later, half the party’s down for the count and the other half almost certainly can’t take on the foes that remain. If everyone dies, the campaign might very well end then and there, and that’s bad for everyone. Do you stand by and watch them get slaughtered, or do you “cheat” and have the foes run off, or fudge the die rolls so
that the PCs still miraculously win in the end? There are really two issues at hand.
Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can’t cheat. You’re the umpire, and what you say goes. As such, it’s certainly within your rights to sway things one way or another to keep people happy or keep things running smoothly. It’s no fun losing a longterm character who gets run over by a cart. A good rule of thumb is that a character shouldn’t die in a trivial way because of some fluke of the dice unless he or she was doing something really stupid at the time.
However, you might not think it’s right or even fun unless you obey the same rules the players do. Sometimes the PCs get lucky and kill an NPC you had planned to have around for a long time. By the same token, sometimes things go against the PCs, and disaster may befall them. Both the DM and the players take the bad with the good. That’s a perfectly acceptable way to play, and if there’s a default method of DMing, that’s it.
Just as important an issue, however, is whether the players realize that you bend the rules. Even if you decide that sometimes it’s okay to fudge a little to let the characters survive so the game can
continue, don’t let the players in on this decision. It’s important to the
game that they believe their characters are always in danger. If the players believe, consciously or subconsciously, that you’ll never let bad things happen to their characters, they’ll change the way they act. With no element of risk, victory will seem less sweet. And if thereafter something bad does happen to a character, that player may believe you’re out to get him if he feels you saved other players when their characters were in trouble.

But wait! This is Pathfinder, not D&D 3.5, right? Well...

PFGMG pg 33 wrote:

Cheating

Though it’s considered more polite to call it “fudging,” cheating happens—sometimes a GM will be tempted to alter a die roll to make the story go a certain way, or to save a player character from a blow that would kill them and knock a fun personality out of the game. Should the
GM give in to the temptation to cheat? And if the GM is truly in control of the world, and making his or her rolls in secret—is it really cheating at all?
There are several schools of thought on the matter. One side says that the dice are there to assist the story, not determine it—if a GM needs to occasionally alter or totally fabricate some die rolls for the sake of making an encounter a perfect challenge for the players without
killing them, then he’s just doing his job. Others say that it’s the randomness which creates the realism and sense of danger, and that PCs who believe the GM won’t let them die lose half the fun. And a third
notes that GMs who clearly cheat or have too many coincidences—the party’s powerful new items always getting stolen by sticky-fingered half lings, or villains being saved by miracle rolls when a player comes up
with an unexpectedly effective strategy—undermine the players' enjoyment, and subtly encourage the players to cheat as well.
Where you fall on the spectrum is a personal call, but if you do decide to fudge rolls for the sake of the game, it’s best done in secret, and as infrequently as possible. And only—only—if it results in more fun for everyone.

"But," you may be thinking, "that's not Core!"

Welp:

PF Core Rulebook, pg 402 wrote:

Cheating and Fudging: We all know that cheating is bad. But sometimes, as a GM, you might find yourself in a situation where cheating might improve the game. We prefer to call this “fudging” rather than cheating, and while you should try to avoid it when you can, you are the law in your world, and you shouldn’t feel bound by the dice. A GM should be impartial and fair, and in theory, that’s what random dice results help support. Some players have trouble putting trust in their GM, but dice offer something that’s irrefutable and truly non-partisan (as long as the dice aren’t doctored or loaded, of course). Still, it’s no good if a single roll of the dice would result in a premature end to your campaign, or a character’s death

when they did everything right.
Likewise, don’t feel bound to the predetermined plot of an encounter or the rules as written. Feel free to adjust the results or interpret things creatively—especially in cases where you as the GM made a poor assumption to begin with. For example, you might design an encounter
against a band of werewolves, only to realize too late that none of the PCs have silver weapons and therefore can’t hurt them. In this case, it’s okay to cheat and say that these werewolves are hurt by normal weapons, or to have the town guard (armed with silver arrows) show up at the last minute to save the PCs. As long as you can keep such developments to a minimum, these on-the-spot adjustments can even enhance the game—so the town guard saved the PCs, but now that they have, it can give you leverage over the PCs to send them on their next quest as repayment to the guards!
Divine Intervention: The literary term for it is deus ex machina—“god from the machine.” This is what happens in a story when a plot device manifests in an unexpected (and usually unsatisfying) way to resolve a story element, typically in a way that renders the actions of the main characters meaningless. Even great authors use deus ex machina to resolve stories now and then, so don’t be afraid to use it in your game if things are looking grim. The town guard rushing in to save the PCs from the werewolves in the previous paragraph is an excellent example of deus ex machina, but so is the old classic of “divine intervention.” In this case, the PCs are faced with an impossible situation and you, as the GM, change the situation so that they can now achieve their goals, perhaps after a PC begs for aid
from his deity.
You can quantify divine interventions, if you wish, at the start of a campaign. Tell every player that they get a fixed number of interventions during the campaign (it’s often best to limit this to just one such intervention). Thereafter, the PC can use this divine intervention to save himself or the party, perhaps by preventing an effect that would otherwise cause a character’s death, or to suddenly manifest an escape from a deathtrap. You, as the GM, have full power over how the intervention resolves, of course, so players won’t be able
to use divine intervention to bypass plot elements you know they can handle—if a player tries this, simply tell him that his request for intervention is denied and that he can save his intervention for when it’s truly needed.
GM Fiat: The GM is the law of the game. His reading of the rules should be respected and adhered to. It’s easy to get hung up on complicated aspects of the game during play, but the game is never enhanced by long, drawn-out arguments over these complications between players and GM. When complications involving rules interpretations occur, listen to the player and make the decision as quickly as you can on how to resolve the situation. If the rule in question isn’t one you’re familiar with, you can go with the player’s interpretation but with the knowledge that after the game you’ll read up on the rules and, with the next session, will have an official ruling in play. Alternatively, you can simply rule that something works in a way that helps the story move on, despite the most logical or impassioned arguments from the players. Even then, you owe it to your players to spend time after the game researching the rule to make sure your ruling was fair—and if not, make amends the next game as necessary.
One handy rule to keep under your belt is the Fiat Rule—simply grant a player a +2 or a –2 bonus or penalty to a die roll if no one at the table is precisely sure how a situation might be handled by the rules. For example, a character who attempts to trip an iron golem in a room
where the floor is magnetized could gain a +2 bonus on his attempt at your discretion, since the magnetic pull exerted by the floor helps pull the golem down.
<snip>
Rolling Dice: Some GMs prefer to roll all of their dice in front of the players, letting the results fall where they may. Others prefer to make all rolls behind a screen, hiding the results from the PCs so that, if they need to, they can fudge the dice results to make the game do what they want. Neither way is the “correct” way; choose whichever you wish, or even mix and match as feels right for you.
The only time you should not reveal the results of a die roll to the player character is when knowledge of the roll’s result would give the player knowledge he shouldn’t have. A good example of this is saving throws against effects that the player shouldn’t necessarily realize his character has been exposed to (such as a disease or a subtle, long-acting poison), or a Perception check to spot a secret door that an
elven PC might notice just in passing.

Various emphasis mine that isn't a title is mine.

My point is, shallowsoul, your way isn't wrong at all: it's a perfectly justified and reasonable approach to the rules and games as a whole. However griping about others' methods of playing is wrong, just because it's not your style. And their methods of playing are actually backed up by the rules.

Now, if people cheating generally take the enjoyment of the game at the table down for everyone... don't do it! Of course not!

But it's a useful tool for some groups. And combined with that and the aggressive tone of your responses in this thread, the whole thing comes across as unpleasant.


If you cheat your die rolls, then you will never really have a chance to excel at roleplay.

In combat heavy rpg's, where the combat is continuous cheating may stem from a mixture of not wanting to roll up a new character and a desire to be [insert movie/video game action hero name here].

In a more conversational game, blowing a die roll and especially getting a '1' is the single best excuse to fail gloriously. And failure in roleplay can be better than success, paradoxically.


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How in the Nine Hells could you ever conceive that this thread needed to be bumped, I ask you?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

While I understand the point you are trying to make mousestalker, it has been my experiance that cheaters come from all types of games. And in sone case the person who cheated the most was the person who claimed just what you are saying, that he "liked" to fail because it gave him a chance to be a real role player. Then he cheated on the very next combat encounter we had.

I think cheating has more to do with lack of self worth and the need to not fail then it does with any Role vs Roll player issues.


Rynjin wrote:
How in the Nine Hells could you ever conceive that this thread needed to be bumped, I ask you?

Mousestalker is secretly a master necromancer attempting to hone his/her craft?

Anyway, seeing Feytharn's bow-out and Tacticslion's epic win made reading this thread totally worth it.

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