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Mythic characters and creatures and the Simulacrum spell


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As far as I know it there is nothing that will stop a spellcaster with the appropriate spell to create a simulacrum of a mythic character or creature. As tiers aren't levels or HD they don't affect at all what you can duplicate and, in theory, the simulacrum mythic tiers wouldn't be halved.

From my point of view this is a potentially serious problem. The best solution seem to add a note about the simulacrum spell in the mythic rules, specifying that it is not possible to duplicate the mythic tiers with that spell.


Diego Rossi wrote:

As far as I know it there is nothing that will stop a spellcaster with the appropriate spell to create a simulacrum of a mythic character or creature. As tiers aren't levels or HD they don't affect at all what you can duplicate and, in theory, the simulacrum mythic tiers wouldn't be halved.

From my point of view this is a potentially serious problem. The best solution seem to add a note about the simulacrum spell in the mythic rules, specifying that it is not possible to duplicate the mythic tiers with that spell.

Well, me oh my! I never looked at this spell. There would be quite the complication. Yeah. Sadly a revision of the text would be needed to encompass halving the mythic tier as well. At any rate, this is a 7th level spell. So, at that point in the game this may not be too overpowered.


Nope, mortal magic cannot duplicate artifacts or creatures of deity level power. As Mythic power is akin to that of the gods, I would say that the spell simply fizzles!

That spell is broken enough!

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sorry Mirrel, but the spell don't say that you can't duplicate a creature of deity level power (that was in previous version of the spell). You can't duplicate a deity because he hasn't a listed number of HD and the HD are the only value limiting your capacity to duplicate something.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Simulacrum is limited by both "levels or HD," not just HD. Also, the duplicate has only half the original's "levels or HD." In this context, "level" has to be referring to "character level." But I seem to recall Jason stating that a creature's mythic tiers are added to its class levels when determining its effective character level. So simulacrum is a non-issue: mythic tiers increase effective character level, and simulacrum is limited by character level as well as HD.

Sczarni

Quote:

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

I can't think of how many movies and shows over the years have had the hero cloned to fight a shadow of himself... Why remove this spell or even modify lol.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Simulacrum is limited by both "levels or HD," not just HD. Also, the duplicate has only half the original's "levels or HD." In this context, "level" has to be referring to "character level." But I seem to recall Jason stating that a creature's mythic tiers are added to its class levels when determining its effective character level. So simulacrum is a non-issue: mythic tiers increase effective character level, and simulacrum is limited by character level as well as HD.

__________________________________________________________________________

I found where it says that you can add the Mythic Monster's mythic rating to its existing CR when determining how it will stand against non-mythic PCs. Anyways, could you show where it says that you adjust level based on tiers for mythic player characters? It makes sense I am just having trouble scanning the book.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Drowlord007 wrote:
Anyways, could you show where it says that you adjust level based on tiers for mythic player characters? It makes sense I am just having trouble scanning the book.

I don't think it's in the playtest document. It was in a thread where someone asked how experience was calculated for characters with mythic tiers. I seem to recall Jason replying that a mythic character should be treated as having an effective character level which equals their class level plus their tier. (I'm too lazy to search the forums for his exact quote.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Heh...

Simulacrum. Such a fun and cool spell, so full of story ideas! And so troublesome!

This is a particularly good observation, and it makes sense to me that a simulacrum of a mythic creature would not duplicate it's mythic powers, just the baseline creature.

Now... a MYTHIC version of simulacrum... that's a different story!

In any case... I'll make sure that there's something about how this works in the final book if I can.


James Jacobs wrote:

Heh...

Simulacrum. Such a fun and cool spell, so full of story ideas! And so troublesome!

This is a particularly good observation, and it makes sense to me that a simulacrum of a mythic creature would not duplicate it's mythic powers, just the baseline creature.

Now... a MYTHIC version of simulacrum... that's a different story!

In any case... I'll make sure that there's something about how this works in the final book if I can.

it would be pretty cool if spells like this were removed so you can actually kill a wizard


James Jacobs wrote:

Heh...

Simulacrum. Such a fun and cool spell, so full of story ideas! And so troublesome!

This is a particularly good observation, and it makes sense to me that a simulacrum of a mythic creature would not duplicate it's mythic powers, just the baseline creature.

Now... a MYTHIC version of simulacrum... that's a different story!

In any case... I'll make sure that there's something about how this works in the final book if I can.

It would be nice if you guys would actually explain what it does. Removing the body part requirement has opened up a can of worms.

Just off the top of my head here are some questions I have about it:

1) Can a wizard of appropriate level make a simulacrum Tarrasque? (someone else on these boards had this excellent idea)

2) What exactly can a simulacrum Tarrasque, or any other creature honestly do? It's half hit dice, but is is immune to rays for example?

3) Can you make a simulacrum of your BBEG and ask him questions?

4) Can you make a simulacrum of something you've never seen? Something with class levels?

5) Can you make a simulacrum of something that has never existed? Say an axiomatic, half-celestial, giant octopus named Bernie?

And there are lots more questions about this that have been asked on the boards.

This spell has never been really nailed down since the days of TSR. It seems like it has always depended on the dm to adjudicate it. But removing the body part limitation has kicked it up to 11 in my opinion.


CWheezy wrote:
it would be pretty cool if spells like this were removed so you can actually kill a wizard

BLASPHEMY!!!

It would absolutely be the farthest thing from cool to remove such a cool spell from the game!

sunbeam wrote:

It would be nice if you guys would actually explain what it does. Removing the body part requirement has opened up a can of worms.

Just off the top of my head here are some questions I have about it:

1) Can a wizard of appropriate level make a simulacrum Tarrasque? (someone else on these boards had this excellent idea)

2) What exactly can a simulacrum Tarrasque, or any other creature honestly do? It's half hit dice, but is is immune to rays for example?

3) Can you make a simulacrum of your BBEG and ask him questions?

4) Can you make a simulacrum of something you've never seen? Something with class levels?

5) Can you make a simulacrum of something that has never existed? Say an axiomatic, half-celestial, giant octopus named Bernie?

And there are lots more questions about this that have been asked on the boards.

This spell has never been really nailed down since the days of TSR. It seems like it has always depended on the dm to adjudicate it. But removing the body part limitation has kicked it up to 11 in my opinion.

They've answered a dozen+ questions on the spell already, yet I think you've managed to hit on some new ones. This spell does NOT need to be removed from the game, but some clarification on how they think it should work certainly wouldn't hurt.

James Jacobs answers a great many related questions in this thread.


Ravingdork wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
it would be pretty cool if spells like this were removed so you can actually kill a wizard

BLASPHEMY!!!

It would absolutely be the farthest thing from cool to remove such a cool spell from the game!

Seconded.

Motion carried.

Smite the infidel.

Wheezy, if you want that I recommend 4th Ed.

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