For more natural attacks, you can have someone cast Monstrous Extremities on you.

First, may I suggest lizardfolk? You can find it inthe 'More Races' section of the SRD. It does not list a specific book since it appears that those races are the examples released in various bestiary entries, examples set forth by Paizo in their creating new races, and other such places, but they are still all official. It is still fairly vanilla compared to the other examples. It's main features are three natural attacks, +2 natural armor, and bonuses to strength and con. Good for a thug build.

I would not suggest using manufactured weapons (outside of situations with DR) until you get up to two or three iteratives. Just not worth it, since you lose an attack and lose some BAB on other natural attacks in return for a manufactured weapon attack that is BAB-5.

Ah, and Barry, Mother's teeth entry is here. Yeah, it is that 1d2 attack that is a secondary natural attack(so multiattack would be needed from the very beginning to make it worth anything)

Not really a fan of the lizard folk. Just not my type.

Helm of the Mammoth Lord - Grants you a gore attack (which is primary)

Ring of Rat Fangs - Grants you a bite attack (again primary)
Wyvern Cloak - Expensive, but grants you a sting attack (primary as well)
Tentacle Cloak - Gives you two secondary natural attacks

There are also some 'fleshcrafting potions' that can give you some secondary natural attacks for a permanent penalty, although I wouldn't recommend using them. Essentially the above magic items are your best (and probably the least cheesiest) bet to acquire more natural attacks. In truth, natural attacks only really shine on something like a ninja, rogue, alchemist, etc. If you already have a Full BAB, you probably don't need them (just go ahead and stick with two-handing a weapon, unless you REALLY wanna have the natural attack flavor).

These Items look cool but I don't want a ring that makes me look more rat like lol. Helm of the mammoth lord looks the coolest. I can picture a feral catfolk throwing on another creatures skull for protection.

For more natural attacks, you can have someone cast Monstrous Extremities on you.

Monstrous Extremities is cool but then i have to convince the caster to save a spell slot just for me. Which may not be hard to do actually lol.

It appears with the restrictions I'm putting on myself, the main options im leaving myself with are Feral Catfolk or Mothers bite. the 1D2 isn't a big deal since i would be adding tons of sneak to it later.

Make sure mothers bite is a primary..

Make sure mothers bite is a primary..

It would be secondary. so yeah at -5 to hit. well i guess id be picking up multi attack.

so level 8 for example i would be at:
Claw +6
Claw +6
Bite +4
Straight BAB no Str or anything

While a 2-handed or sword board fighter 8 would be at
+8/+3
Straight BAB no Str or anything

Thats not so bad i don't fall behind all that much really.

so adding the crippling strike rouge talent
Crippling Strike (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents

Benefit: A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.

would i deal 2 str dmg per sneak attack? am i reading this right? so i could do 6 str dmg a turn as soon as advanced rouge talents become available?

Remember, the orc trait in orcs of golarian is a primary at full bab. So s the bite from my feral catfolk.

I have to admit, getting a natural attack (of any kind) from a trait seems a bit too overpowered to me. Honestly, it just screams of cheese (and trust me, I've made some cheesy characters in the past). The truth is this: secondary natural attacks SUCK (especially if you have an average BAB). To be fair, I think you would have better luck being a catfolk ninja with 2 claw attacks, 1 bite, and 1 gore (from the ring, helm, and racial feat respectively). Catfolk can make excellent party faces, and have enough skill points to invest in the 'stealth' and disable device aspects as well.

I would also recommend taking the 'climber' and 'clever cat' abilities, and to also focus mostly on being dex based as well (weapon finesse, and perhaps eventually getting the 'agile property for your amulet of mighty fists).

with 4 primary natural attacks (5 if you want the wyvern cloak) on top of sneak attack damage, you should be able to produce a great deal of damage with a greater degree of accuracy than most other classes that rely on average BAB.

It would also be benifical to the party if you took on the rolls of both party face and scout (investing in things like bluff, diplomacy, stealth, disable device, and intimidate). If you combine all this with the ability to climb, along with all the tricks a ninja can produce, u should do very well.

Remember, the orc trait in orcs of golarian is a primary at full bab. So s the bite from my feral catfolk.

Im having trouble finding the orc trait. I will only take mothers bite if Feral Catfolk aren't allowed. still waiting on the gm apparently i have a few days to get everything in order still.

I have to admit, getting a natural attack (of any kind) from a trait seems a bit too overpowered to me. Honestly, it just screams of cheese (and trust me, I've made some cheesy characters in the past). The truth is this: secondary natural attacks SUCK (especially if you have an average BAB). To be fair, I think you would have better luck being a catfolk ninja with 2 claw attacks, 1 bite, and 1 gore (from the ring, helm, and racial feat respectively). Catfolk can make excellent party faces, and have enough skill points to invest in the 'stealth' and disable device aspects as well.

I would also recommend taking the 'climber' and 'clever cat' abilities, and to also focus mostly on being dex based as well (weapon finesse, and perhaps eventually getting the 'agile property for your amulet of mighty fists).

with 4 primary natural attacks (5 if you want the wyvern cloak) on top of sneak attack damage, you should be able to produce a great deal of damage with a greater degree of accuracy than most other classes that rely on average BAB.

It would also be benifical to the party if you took on the rolls of both party face and scout (investing in things like bluff, diplomacy, stealth, disable device, and intimidate). If you combine all this with the ability to climb, along with all the tricks a ninja can produce, u should do very well.

I'm not going for cheese here. I just want a viable character that, as the rest of the party progress in levels won't leave me obsolete.

I looked at ninja doesn't do it for me. Not a fan of the ki point system for them. would rather have the rogue's talents that are always there once unlocked.

I plan on climber. but not clever cat i will not have claws then and that kinda defeats the purpose of the build.

The mothers bite isn't overpowered its a secondary attack with D2 Dmg. even a fighter using it with a 28 str score would only do between 10-11 Dmg thats pretty minor.

Tusked Trait - Orcs of Golarion

Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

So take adopted and get it as a trait.

I remembered another drawback of the feral catfolk I listed- without bonus languages from Int, they can't even speak common.

Tusked Trait - Orcs of Golarion

Quote:

Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

So take adopted and get it as a trait.

I also seem to remember a discussion where one of PF's writers said natural attacks should always use bestiary rules, and when "secondary natural weapons" mention full attacks and being secondary, they are assuming a physical weapon as the primary. They didn't foresee all the natural attack builds that would pop up. Post a thread in the rules forum if you like. Regardless, "secondary natural attacks" have not been erratta'd yet.

Sweet man thanks for the help. ill have to look into that more later i guess then.

I put together a build very similar to this idea on the boards a few months ago. Here's the first 13 levels.

I used the Adopted-Tusked trait to get a bite attack. There's some debate as to whether it would be at full BAB or -5. I don't know. Even at -5, it's way better than a Two-Weapon Fighting rogue.

I built is as a Scout Rogue. I dipped one level of Unarmed Fighter for the free Dragon Style Feat (and the free Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus). Note that in my build I accidentally wrote down the Nimble Striker feat twice. The 5th level feat should be Dodge.

Also, note that my GM said that the claws could count as concealed weapons for the Underhanded Rogue Talent. If you don't want to use Underhanded, I suggest swapping in Fast Getaway.

Some other ways of building it that were suggested on that thread: Vivisectionist Alchemist, Ninja, or dipping levels into Urban Barbarian to get a rage bonus to Dex. Or Synthesist Summoner for the crazy overpowered version.

I still like the idea of worshiping Lamashtu, whether you take the Mother's Teeth trait or not.

If you take the Adopted/Tusked trait, that will eat up your Social and Racial traits.

Something to consider.

I still like the idea of worshiping Lamashtu, whether you take the Mother's Teeth trait or not.

If you take the Adopted/Tusked trait, that will eat up your Social and Racial traits.

Something to consider.

I am for sure worshipping lamashtu regardless. Not sure what direction i am going to gain the bite attack still.

I put together a build very similar to this idea on the boards a few months ago. Here's the first 13 levels.

I used the Adopted-Tusked trait to get a bite attack. There's some debate as to whether it would be at full BAB or -5. I don't know. Even at -5, it's way better than a Two-Weapon Fighting rogue.

I built is as a Scout Rogue. I dipped one level of Unarmed Fighter for the free Dragon Style Feat (and the free Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus). Note that in my build I accidentally wrote down the Nimble Striker feat twice. The 5th level feat should be Dodge.

Also, note that my GM said that the claws could count as concealed weapons for the Underhanded Rogue Talent. If you don't want to use Underhanded, I suggest swapping in Fast Getaway.

Some other ways of building it that were suggested on that thread: Vivisectionist Alchemist, Ninja, or dipping levels into Urban Barbarian to get a rage bonus to Dex. Or Synthesist Summoner for the crazy overpowered version.

This is a pretty cool build. I really like redchigh's feral catfolk and BBT's idea of being a Lamashtu follower. If i can (per GM) this is all i would need to achieve my goals.

Underhanded should totally count for cats claws! Retractable claws should be pretty easy to hide. Im sure the GM would allow this, thanks.

I thought about scout rouge because as far as power goes for this character its a good choice but as far as flavor i like the Acrobat archetype. I feel like it just fits a sneaky cat. I have seen cats do some crazy stuff lol.

I thought about scout rouge because as far as power goes for this character its a good choice but as far as flavor i like the Acrobat archetype. I feel like it just fits a sneaky cat. I have seen cats do some crazy stuff lol.

You're not going Cat Burglar for flavor?? Being Catfolk I thought that might be a given...

While I hate to say it (and I'm sure some people will disagree with me), the ninja class on the whole is far more superior than the rogue class. You have more options, more powerful ninja tricks, and you can basically do a lot more than anything the rogue has to offer. You still gain access to the catfolk rogue tricks, and don't forget about using the feat Catfolk exemplar (which basically grants claws, which in turns allows you to take clever cat as a racial trait).

I can assure u that 4 (or 5) primary natural attacks with sneak attack, the ability to scout and disable traps, AND the ability to act as the party face will keep your character VERY relevant throughout the entire game (again, I while I realize you might not enjoy the ninja, catfolk really fit this class extraordinarily well).

I have already taken an in-depth look at both the rogue and ninja class, and each and every time, the ninja comes out on top. Keep in the mind that the ninja IS allowed to learn one rogue trick (and to be honest, there really aren't that many good ones anyway...and most of the really good ones, a ninja can already learn).

Also, its important to note that a ninja is MUCH better at wielding a wand than a rogue will ever be (Charisma is an important stat after all). And in truth, the 'ki point' system really isn't that different from the 'rage' mechanic with the barbarian, and it gives your character A LOT more options.

but meh, that's just my advice. Like I said, catfolk exemplar is a REALLY good feat, and I wouldn't be surprised if u end up taking it multiple times (getting the 'sharp claws' and the 'low-light vision/scent' options).

I used the Adopted-Tusked trait to get a bite attack. There's some debate as to whether it would be at full BAB or -5. I don't know. Even at -5, it's way better than a Two-Weapon Fighting rogue.

I'm curious what the "debate" is for the -5, given the following:

Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

If used as a full attack, you'd get your normal attacks at normal BAB progression. Then, you also get a 1d4 bite at BAB-5.

If used as a single attack, you'd get a 1d4 bite at full BAB.

That's how all natural attacks work, isn't it?

While I hate to say it (and I'm sure some people will disagree with me), the ninja class on the whole is far more superior than the rogue class. You have more options, more powerful ninja tricks, and you can basically do a lot more than anything the rogue has to offer.

Minus the fact that the OP does not want to be a Ninja. He's stated multiple times he's not after optimization, he's after flavor and character, he simply wants to stay viable. This can be done with the rogue class if we help him build it correctly.

If he doesn't want to buy a ninja, don't try to sell him a ninja. If he doesn't like Ki, don't try to make him like it.

Let's help him build his rogue the way he envisions it, not the way WE envision it.

(for instance, the Adopted/Toothy trait. Something I might use for a Catfolk in the very near future. Very clever way of getting something very useful out of the trait system.)

KatoCha04 wrote:

I thought about scout rouge because as far as power goes for this character its a good choice but as far as flavor i like the Acrobat archetype. I feel like it just fits a sneaky cat. I have seen cats do some crazy stuff lol.

You're not going Cat Burglar for flavor?? Being Catfolk I thought that might be a given...

Thought about this but I'm not going for a hey I'm a rouge I'm gonna rob you lol. I liked the idea of being all nimbly bimbbley(real word swear).

Thought about this but I'm not going for a hey I'm a rouge I'm gonna rob you lol. I liked the idea of being all nimbly bimbbley(real word swear).

Are you going to drink milk from a saucer?

While I hate to say it (and I'm sure some people will disagree with me), the ninja class on the whole is far more superior than the rogue class. You have more options, more powerful ninja tricks, and you can basically do a lot more than anything the rogue has to offer. You still gain access to the catfolk rogue tricks, and don't forget about using the feat Catfolk exemplar (which basically grants claws, which in turns allows you to take clever cat as a racial trait).

I can assure u that 4 (or 5) primary natural attacks with sneak attack, the ability to scout and disable traps, AND the ability to act as the party face will keep your character VERY relevant throughout the entire game (again, I while I realize you might not enjoy the ninja, catfolk really fit this class extraordinarily well).

I have already taken an in-depth look at both the rogue and ninja class, and each and every time, the ninja comes out on top. Keep in the mind that the ninja IS allowed to learn one rogue trick (and to be honest, there really aren't that many good ones anyway...and most of the really good ones, a ninja can already learn).

Also, its important to note that a ninja is MUCH better at wielding a wand than a rogue will ever be (Charisma is an important stat after all). And in truth, the 'ki point' system really isn't that different from the 'rage' mechanic with the barbarian, and it gives your character A LOT more options.

but meh, that's just my advice. Like I said, catfolk exemplar is a REALLY good feat, and I wouldn't be surprised if u end up taking it multiple times (getting the 'sharp claws' and the 'low-light vision/scent' options).

I'm not disagreeing that the ninja is good just not what i picture for my character you know.

Also i don't like the barbarian 'rage' mechanic either lol. I know I'm a blasphemer.

I will most likely be picking Catfolk exemplar anyways it is just a good feat for them.

If you already have claws, my dm let me use the feat to bump my die damage up a step.

I'd also reccomend you take a look at scout. More specifically, scouts charge..
(Lets you deal sneak damage after a "charge".)
Then look at "Claw Pounce"
(Lets you swing with both claws after a move)

So, if your sneak damage is 4d6...
You scout ahead for the group...
You can spot a flat-footed opponent...
scouts charge at them..
claw pounce for your attack..
Left claw- 1d4 + str + 4d6
Right claw- 1d4 + str + 4d6
Go back to your group, and tell them "There was a bandit up ahead, but not anymore..." as you grin evilly and lick the blood off your claws.

At least, that's how I play my feral catfolk XD

If you already have claws, my dm let me use the feat to bump my die damage up a step.

I'd also reccomend you take a look at scout. More specifically, scouts charge..
(Lets you deal sneak damage after a "charge".)
Then look at "Claw Pounce"
(Lets you swing with both claws after a move)

So, if your sneak damage is 4d6...
You scout ahead for the group...
You can spot a flat-footed opponent...
scouts charge at them..
claw pounce for your attack..
Left claw- 1d4 + str + 4d6
Right claw- 1d4 + str + 4d6
Go back to your group, and tell them "There was a bandit up ahead, but not anymore..." as you grin evilly and lick the blood off your claws.

At least, that's how I play my feral catfolk XD

lol awesome.

I know scouts charge looks so good... I wish my freaking dm would just back to me so i can know what i can take... it would make this process easier.

Gnoll are their native enemy (being doglike). This can be swapped out for another.

I know this is largely irrelevant, but gnolls, being basically anthropomorphic hyenas, are actually more closely related to cats than dogs. From Wikipedia:

"Hyenas or Hyaenas (from Greek "ὕαινα" - hýaina[1]) are the animals of the family Hyaenidae of suborder feliforms of the Carnivora."

However, it's true that hyenas are dog-like in many ways:

"Although phylogenetically close to felines and viverrids, hyenas are behaviourally and morphologically similar to canines in several aspects (see Convergent evolution); both hyenas and canines are non-arboreal, cursorial hunters that catch prey with their teeth rather than claws."

Helm of the Mammoth Lord - Grants you a gore attack (which is primary)

Ring of Rat Fangs - Grants you a bite attack (again primary)
Wyvern Cloak - Expensive, but grants you a sting attack (primary as well)
Tentacle Cloak - Gives you two secondary natural attacks

This is probably your best option. Even with just the Ring of Rat Fangs that give you three attacks at your highest BAB. Although the d8 sneak attack rogue talent for catfolk only applies to claws, ANY additional attacks that can sneak attack is good. Wyvern cloack and Tentacle are pretty expensive but the helmet and ring are both under 10k. There are also the third party item Raptor Boots (or Boots of the Raptor can't remember off the top of my head) that once you have 10 ranks in acrobatics gives you an additional attack.

As a note Speed does not apply to natural attacks.

If you already have claws, my dm let me use the feat to bump my die damage up a step.

I'd also reccomend you take a look at scout. More specifically, scouts charge..
(Lets you deal sneak damage after a "charge".)
Then look at "Claw Pounce"
(Lets you swing with both claws after a move)

So, if your sneak damage is 4d6...
You scout ahead for the group...
You can spot a flat-footed opponent...
scouts charge at them..
claw pounce for your attack..
Left claw- 1d4 + str + 4d6
Right claw- 1d4 + str + 4d6
Go back to your group, and tell them "There was a bandit up ahead, but not anymore..." as you grin evilly and lick the blood off your claws.

At least, that's how I play my feral catfolk XD

I thought the sneak attack damage would only apply to the first claw in this case? After the first claw, isn't your opponent no longer flat-footed?

Or do you only make one attack roll for both claws kind of like a rend attack?

Duskblade wrote:

Helm of the Mammoth Lord - Grants you a gore attack (which is primary)

Ring of Rat Fangs - Grants you a bite attack (again primary)
Wyvern Cloak - Expensive, but grants you a sting attack (primary as well)
Tentacle Cloak - Gives you two secondary natural attacks

This is probably your best option. Even with just the Ring of Rat Fangs that give you three attacks at your highest BAB. Although the d8 sneak attack rogue talent for catfolk only applies to claws, ANY additional attacks that can sneak attack is good. Wyvern cloack and Tentacle are pretty expensive but the helmet and ring are both under 10k. There are also the third party item Raptor Boots (or Boots of the Raptor can't remember off the top of my head) that once you have 10 ranks in acrobatics gives you an additional attack.

As a note Speed does not apply to natural attacks.

Where does it say that about speed??

Amulet of Mighty Fists
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot neck; Price 4,000 gp (+1), 16,000 gp (+2), 36,000 gp (+3), 64,000 gp (+4), 100,000 gp (+5)*; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5)

Speed

Price +3 bonus
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Cost +3 bonus

I thought the sneak attack damage would only apply to the first claw in this case? After the first claw, isn't your opponent no longer flat-footed?

Or do you only make one attack roll for both claws kind of like a rend attack?

It's an admittedly strange interaction, but it's RAW.

I'm not able to post sources, but feel free to post a reference for me. :P

Speed does work with natural attacks, it just doesn't grant more than 1 bonus attack. It only grants 1 additional attack at full bab.
(Yes, the speeded bonus attack gets sneak damage if applicable)

On the subject of how many sneak attacks you get:

As far as I can tell, there's nothing in the rules for being Flat-Footed that state that you stop being Flat-Footed after you get attacked. The Flat-Footed condition only goes away when you get your first turn in combat.

So yes, if an opponent is Flat-Footed, then you'll get your Sneak Attack on all your attacks.

There are other circumstances in which your opponent could be denied their Dex bonus, though. In some of those, they might regain it after being attacked.

If you're getting Sneak Attack by flanking your target, you'll also get it on every single one of your attacks, so long as you're flanking for all of them.

You might consider a non-shaping druid. Urban Druid can get you the Nobility domain, which has a couple of clericzilla buffs (divine favor and magic vestment) and can cast them spontaneously rather than being limited to the domain slots. And you've got spells like (greater) magic fang, lockjaw, and strong jaw. That basically puts you in battle cleric territory with the much more control and damage oriented druid spell list.

Ranger is also possible, but gets much slower spell access.

Much slower spell progression in ranger, but you gain access to feats like rending claws, eldritch claws, claw pounce, etc in a full bab class... Plus you don't lose anything from getting the shapeshifting ranger archtype, and gain (with form of the bear) a nice str bonus, and eventually a lesser shapechange.

Another option would be to go for Vital Strike. You'd still have only 2 claw attacks, but you'd be dealing damage as if you had 4 (like a TWF fighter using manufactured weapons).

Vital strike can only apply to 1 attack. Great feat for a T-rex or hippo familiar with only one attack, but not for a creature or pc with more than one.
(But you could perhaps build a character around a improved-vital-striking furious-finishing barbarian immune to fatige with improved natural weapon-bite and trying to bump up the bite damage die as much as possible...The barbarian could carry two shields)