Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Fixing the Synthesist! Its relatively easy


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

1 to 50 of 442 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>

I guess its the consesus that Synthesits are OP.Something that I very much agree with. Nonetheless its a way to cool a concept to let this archetype drown in its own cheesiness. So here is my idea.

First:Limit the evolutions that Synthesits have access to.Concerning here are mostly the LARGE and HUGE evolutions.

That would stop the most egregious explotations of Stat optimization and tone this aspect of the brokeness down to acceptable levels IMO.

Second: Synthesists cannot profit anymore from any armor bonuses of their summoners.

That would stop them from taking a level of monk and boost wis to increase their AC to broken heights.

Thats it:)

I think this would still allow one to make a fairly superb melee monster but stop the most broken builds dead in their tracks.

Oppinions please...


I still don't see how Synthesist can possibly be OP but regular Summoner is perfectly okay.

Last I checked Summoner is the same thing but with twice as many actions.


I dont think the summoner or the synthesist are broken. And yes, a synthesist gives up alot of power (roughly half) in the long run as compared to a regular summoner. And if you still think the summoner is somehow broken, I suggest you read the current post of the 13th lvl pistolero gunslinger who is doing over 300 damage a round. Almost any class can, with considerable thought and planning, be optomized to the point of being broken. (i.e. overshadowing other party members, which shouldnt be an issue to begin with)


Rynjin wrote:
Last I checked Summoner is the same thing but with twice as many actions.

Not true. While regular summoners have a huge advantage on action economy a Synthesist can be nearly unkillable and at the same time do erroneus amounts of damage. A summoner can not really do much as long as his eidolon is out exept buff it up and pull off some very minor battlefield controll.Their spell list does not give them much opportunity to do much besides that. So the action economy thing is not as powerfull as many people seem to think.Now a Druid and a T-Rex,thats a whole different thing....


I believe Rynjin was referring to the summoner ability of Twin Eidolon, wherein you get all the benefits of a synthesist PLUS having an eidolon to boot. This was what I was talking about in that in an end game situation, a synthesist gives up a fair amount of power. Its all a matter of power now vs power later, though.


LOL the sythesist gets the exact same ability only 4 levels earlier and usable as a swift action. They also get Twin Eidolon.

Split Forms (Su)

At 16th level, as a swift action, the synthesist and his fused eidolon can split into two creatures: the synthesist and the eidolon. Both have the same evolutions. The synthesist emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon.

The synthesist can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his summoner level. He can end this effect at any time as a full-round action. For the duration of this effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the summoner’s class level.

This ability replaces merge forms.


Oh, somehow I missed that line of having the same evolutions. The difference being 1 minute per level vs 1 round per level. Hmm, definetly makes the synthesist more equal.

Cheliax

The Synthesist can either be a pretty strong martial character or a spellcaster. The regular Summoner can be both.

Synthesists are fine, as long as you don't completely ignore the rules about how Eidolons are built.


Again not true. A synthesist can dump all his physical stats so I don´t see how a regulear summoner would make a better spellcaster. On the contrary.

Also this

"as long as you don't completely ignore the rules about how Eidolons are built"

is a nonsense argument.You don´t need to ignore any rules to make a broken eidolon they are broken by RAW. That is offset by the relative squishiness of the summoner the split cost for gear and the relative uselesness of the summoner while his eidolon is out.

But all these things don´t apply to the synth.

Cheliax

Because it's kinda hard to cast while you're full-attacking. And you COULD dump all your physical stats, but then when you get jumped in the middle of the night you're dead meat. Or if you get his with a Dismissal, or any of the number of ways around a Synthesist's abilities.

Most Eidolons are meh fighters at best, and it's only early and easy access to things like Pounce and tons of extra attacks (which are limited by level, by the way) that make them good combatants. They still can't be healed except by the specific spell that the Summoner has (and hence the Synthesist can't be healed normally by anyone else, so he has to use his own action to heal himself) and I could go on.

Synthesists are not broken. Summoners (standard and Master versions) are ridiculously strong, and the Synthesist is slightly less so.


OK here we go...

Seranov wrote:
Because it's kinda hard to cast while you're full-attacking. And you COULD dump all your physical stats, but then when you get jumped in the middle of the night you're dead meat. Or if you get his with a Dismissal, or any of the number of ways around a Synthesist's abilities.

There simply are no ways around a synthesists abilities thats exactly the problem. With the stat dumping a synth can pull, plus maybe a level of monk and pumped wis those dismissals and banishments will just make "plop" against them.And if you get jumped while sleeping as a summoner you have bad cards, stat dumping or not. So thats not really an incentive against dumping them as a synth from an optimization standpoint.

Seranov wrote:
Most Eidolons are meh fighters at best,

You are kidding right?

Seranov wrote:
and it's only early and easy access to things like Pounce and tons of extra attacks (which are limited by level, by the way) that make them good combatants.

What other abilities are there that would make you a good combatant?They get lots of attacks with high strenght and plenty of special effects like rend,grab energy attacks and so on and so forth. And to top it all of they can pounce at level 1. Eidolons are the best melee monsters in the game.

Seranov wrote:
They still can't be healed except by the specific spell that the Summoner has (and hence the Synthesist can't be healed normally by anyone else, so he has to use his own action to heal himself)

So what? Synthesist can have 150plus Hitpoints at level 10 easy,plus AC 40 ,plus Energy resistance and immunity.It´s not like you would have to stop every round and heal.Its going to be a rare occasion when you get hurt at all.

Seranov wrote:

and I could go on.

Please do...

Cheliax

I get the feeling you've never actually played/played with a Synthesist. Are you complaining because of theorycrafting?

There's nothing a Synthesist can do that a normal or Master Summoner couldn't do better, except the other Summoners don't have to put themselves in harm's way. Nor do they have to do ridiculous stat-dumping that most DMs would give a single look and say "No, that's not acceptable."


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, what are people's thoughts on the subject, assuming in good faith that the premise is true? It's obviously causing a problem to someone, so let's help him rather than belittle.


Seranov wrote:

I get the feeling you've never actually played/played with a Synthesist. Are you complaining because of theorycrafting?

There's nothing a Synthesist can do that a normal or Master Summoner couldn't do better, except the other Summoners don't have to put themselves in harm's way. Nor do they have to do ridiculous stat-dumping that most DMs would give a single look and say "No, that's not acceptable."

Seen a fifth level monk/synthesist (1/4) with 29AC, 70+HP that could charge over all terrain doing a full attack sequence at the end, had 60ft darkvision, 50ft movement and evasion.

And could cast haste.

Pretty impressive.

Its a shame the mechanics of the archetype are so broken because the idea's really cool...


Cheapy wrote:
So, what are people's thoughts on the subject, assuming in good faith that the premise is true? It's obviously causing a problem to someone, so let's help him rather than belittle.

I have been on the boards long enough to know that most answers are people disagreeing with one another just for the sake of the argument.So I´m not surprised how this has turned out at all.


Funky Badger wrote:
Seranov wrote:

I get the feeling you've never actually played/played with a Synthesist. Are you complaining because of theorycrafting?

There's nothing a Synthesist can do that a normal or Master Summoner couldn't do better, except the other Summoners don't have to put themselves in harm's way. Nor do they have to do ridiculous stat-dumping that most DMs would give a single look and say "No, that's not acceptable."

Seen a fifth level monk/synthesist (1/4) with 29AC, 70+HP that could charge over all terrain doing a full attack sequence at the end, had 60ft darkvision, 50ft movement and evasion.

And could cast haste.

Pretty impressive.

Its a shame the mechanics of the archetype are so broken because the idea's really cool...

Exactly my point ,if we could just tone it down a notch or two it would be awesome.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I have yet to play a Synthesist. I played with one for one session & then the player never showed up again. Personally, I am inclined to agree with what I believe to be Seranov's point that the greatest degree of issue with either the Vanilla Summoner or any of the Archetypes is poor understanding in what the Eidolon can/can't do in terms of the mechanics of building the Eidolon. I will say that I feel the Eidolon does come 'front-loaded' so-to-speak. They get a lot of power right out of the box, but as characters level up, other classes match & even exceed them reasonably quickly.

Since I don't have the experience to give more suggestions one way or another, this will likely be my last post on the thread.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Funky Badger wrote:
Seranov wrote:

I get the feeling you've never actually played/played with a Synthesist. Are you complaining because of theorycrafting?

There's nothing a Synthesist can do that a normal or Master Summoner couldn't do better, except the other Summoners don't have to put themselves in harm's way. Nor do they have to do ridiculous stat-dumping that most DMs would give a single look and say "No, that's not acceptable."

Seen a fifth level monk/synthesist (1/4) with 29AC, 70+HP that could charge over all terrain doing a full attack sequence at the end, had 60ft darkvision, 50ft movement and evasion.

And could cast haste.

Pretty impressive.

Its a shame the mechanics of the archetype are so broken because the idea's really cool...

Um, how did he/she get haste? Was he/she able to cast spells?


Sleet Storm wrote:

Yeah thats what I thought about you.

BTW: I can see from a character sheet if something is broken or not

As an FYI, that's what he means by "theorycrafting".


I've never played them at high levels so I don't know how ridiculous they get, but I do think it's kind of nuts that they add the eidolon's natural armor bonus and hp to their own, and since he can funnel his own hp into the eidolon's so that it never goes away, and if the summoner is old aged, he gets those nice bonuses to his mental stats without suffering drawbacks to his physicals, since he has his eidolon's physical stats 24/7.

They also get full flight at 1st level. An elf summoner with a short bow could have a field day with that.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Um, how did he/she get haste? Was he/she able to cast spells?

Um... Summoners get spells. And haste is on the list :P

Big Lemon wrote:
They also get full flight at 1st level. An elf summoner with a short bow could have a field day with that.

How are you figuring that? If you mean via evolution, that's locked until 5th level.

Osirion

Cheapy wrote:
So, what are people's thoughts on the subject, assuming in good faith that the premise is true? It's obviously causing a problem to someone, so let's help him rather than belittle.

My thoughts on the subject: I can build completely broken synthesists and summoners.

I can also build a completely broken monk, magus, fighter, gunslinger, druid, paladin .....

The player is a lot more important than the class.


Artanthos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
So, what are people's thoughts on the subject, assuming in good faith that the premise is true? It's obviously causing a problem to someone, so let's help him rather than belittle.

My thoughts on the subject: I can build completely broken synthesists and summoners.

I can also build a completely broken monk, magus, fighter, gunslinger, druid, paladin .....

The player is a lot more important than the class.

I agree with this statement about 500%.

A poor/inexperienced player playing the most 'broken' class will get stomped and overshadowed by a strong player using the 'weakest' class. Knowing your stuff is huge, and if everyone in the party is equally knowledgable nobody is going to have to big an advantage


Darkwolf117 wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Um, how did he/she get haste? Was he/she able to cast spells?

Um... Summoners get spells. And haste is on the list :P

Big Lemon wrote:
They also get full flight at 1st level. An elf summoner with a short bow could have a field day with that.
How are you figuring that? If you mean via evolution, that's locked until 5th level.

Ah, nevermind. I didn't notice that.


Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

@Artanthos,Interzone and Seranov:

Since all you guys are so "experienced" and can build "broken" monks(isn´t that an oxymoron by the way?), here is a sample build

Synthesist

So show me. Build me a Monk,Fighter or Rouge that comes even close to that.

Osirion

Funky Badger wrote:


Seen a fifth level monk/synthesist (1/4) with 29AC, 70+HP that could charge over all terrain doing a full attack sequence at the end, had 60ft darkvision, 50ft movement and evasion.

And could cast haste.

Pretty impressive.

Its a shame the mechanics of the archetype are so broken because the idea's really cool...

I would like to see the build. Curious what the attacks look like having spent the evolutions on additional movement, armor class, and having added in a 0 BAB level of monk. Without magic items he should be looking at the following attack sequence (assuming he spent 2 evolution points on strength):

claws(2) +6 (1d6+3/20/x2)
bite +6 (1d6+3/20/x2)

He's got a 3 BAB, can't have more than 4 attacks, and he can't have higher than a 17 strength without using magic (given build details I would be curious how he fit a 4th attack in without dropping strength down to 15). Only 1 set of claws can be on legs, the rest have to go on arms.

At this same level, a barbarian (dumping int and cha down to 7) could easily have (assuming 24 str while raging):

earthbreaker +12 (2d6+10/20/x3)

The barbarian is also getting his full attacks every round.....

I'm not counting feats. Both classes have the same number and will likely spend them in a similar fashion. The barbarian will spend less than the sythesist for an equivalent enchanted weapon.

If the synthesist is stopping to cast in combat, he's acting as a second tier sorcerer instead of a front line fighter.

Any character can permanently ignore difficult terrain for 2000 gold. It's called Feather Step Slippers


Oh common, why are you wasting your time theorizing about builds you have not seen. I have posted a full build with all details.

Your turn

GO....

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darkwolf117 wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Um, how did he/she get haste? Was he/she able to cast spells?

Um... Summoners get spells. And haste is on the list :P

Not at level 4 they don't. If the synth was casting haste with only 4 levels of summoner, then yes something was done horribly wrong...and possibly more then just that one thing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Summoners get haste at level 4. It's a second level spell for them and guess which spell level they get at 4th?


Summoners get haste as a 2nd level spell. And those are available for them at Level 4.

EDIT Cheapy´d


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not sure the proposed changes would really fix the synthesist. Its issues are that

1) The ridiculous HP thing.
2) The elimination of just about every single 'balancing' factor of the summoner (the summoner being the weaklink between the two, splitting slots, etc)
3) The complete 180 degree turn on one of the primary selling points of PFRPG: the removal of Druidzilla. Yea sure, despite all this effort of fixing polymorph so you can't stat dump the physical attributes and boost up the mental attributes, let's make the Synth.

These don't really address the actual issues, and just kind of skirt around them. Honestly, the best bet is to just throw it out and make your own "become the beast" archetype. This one really suffered from the limited wordcount Paizo allows for their archetypes.


I will tell you simply this. It's the same thing i heard from my rpga certified DM in 3.5 D&D and these words a are simple. If you have a problem with any material then CHUCK IT OUT THE AIRLOCK AND SHUT THE DOOR BEHIND YOU! Is it really worth pointing out broken builds so other players can exploit them? We are all adults here (we ARE all ADULTS here, right?)

So if a class is felt to be broken then don't include the build as a choice. All of these are simple suggestions anyway.

So if you want to "fix" the "problem" get rid of the problem. I've seen the build myself. Multiclassing isn't my thing anyway. If a players worth his salt he won't exploit loopholes and if he isn't then I look at the sheet and erase it. Simple. Why worry about broken characters if you can see them by "Staring at the sheet" just say NO! You have the power DM's so quit whining.

Grand Lodge

Sleet Storm wrote:

Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

@Artanthos,Interzone and Seranov:

Since all you guys are so "experienced" and can build "broken" monks(isn´t that an oxymoron by the way?), here is a sample build

Synthesist

So show me. Build me a Monk,Fighter or Rouge that comes even close to that.

Sure when I don't follow the rules, I can make even a commoner broken.

Your eidolon is built all wrong. You should have ONLY 24 str...not 28 as you claim. Your dex should be 12 and your con 17...and that's just the start of your number mistakes. I do believe you kinda did prove the point of when somebody claims the synth is broken, you can pretty much bet that it was built breaking the rules.

Grand Lodge

Cheapy wrote:
Summoners get haste at level 4. It's a second level spell for them and guess which spell level they get at 4th?

Seriously?!? They wouldn't lower buffing spells for the magus and they drop haste to 2nd for the summoner?!? Sigh....

Grand Lodge

Cheapy wrote:


3) The complete 180 degree turn on one of the primary selling points of PFRPG: the removal of Druidzilla. Yea sure, despite all this effort of fixing polymorph so you can't stat dump the physical attributes and boost up the mental attributes, let's make the Synth.

Yeah...I dislike this about the synth as well. I like how all the polymorph effects are now stat adjustments...and then there is the synth, all alone. That honestly is the only aspect of the synth I would change. Not so much for balance issues...but for internal consistency issues.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Cold Napalm wrote:
Your eidolon is built all wrong. You should have ONLY 24 str...not 28 as you claim. Your dex should be 12 and your con 17...and that's just the start of your number mistakes. I do believe you kinda did prove the point of when somebody claims the synth is broken, you can pretty much bet that it was built breaking the rules.

Unfortunately, he does have a STR of 28. Eidolon's get a STR/DEX bonus at certain levels in addition to bonuses due to evolutions. The rest I haven't checked yet. DEX gets teh same bouns STR did, so, that checks out. Eidolon's get ability increses at lvls. 5 & 10, so he probably put those into CON.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:

Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

@Artanthos,Interzone and Seranov:

Since all you guys are so "experienced" and can build "broken" monks(isn´t that an oxymoron by the way?), here is a sample build

Synthesist

So show me. Build me a Monk,Fighter or Rouge that comes even close to that.

Sure when I don't follow the rules, I can make even a commoner broken.

Your eidolon is built all wrong. You should have ONLY 24 str...not 28 as you claim. Your dex should be 12 and your con 17...and that's just the start of your number mistakes. I do believe you kinda did prove the point of when somebody claims the synth is broken, you can pretty much bet that it was built breaking the rules.

First of all if you would look at the profile you would see that this is not my build.

Furthermore the stuff you pointed out changes nothing. Also the build is actually missing 2points of strenght 14 base+2Evolution+6Belt+8Large=30 so yeah there you have it.-2DEx and -2Con do not make this less broken.

EDIT forgot about the Leveling Increases and the +2 Con from the large evolution. That means all stats are correct only he has 30 strenght not 28.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That change was made for balance issues. BAM! Admittance of balance issues. :p

Enforcing a ' balanced approach' to spending evolution points might work too, much like the wbl guidelines suggest. Still allows a lot of variation. The magic that allows the eidolon to merge with the summoner also forces it to be a bit more humane and less monstrous.

Cheliax

Cold Napalm wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


3) The complete 180 degree turn on one of the primary selling points of PFRPG: the removal of Druidzilla. Yea sure, despite all this effort of fixing polymorph so you can't stat dump the physical attributes and boost up the mental attributes, let's make the Synth.
Yeah...I dislike this about the synth as well. I like how all the polymorph effects are now stat adjustments...and then there is the synth, all alone. That honestly is the only aspect of the synth I would change. Not so much for balance issues...but for internal consistency issues.

I admit I agree with this part.

But I would simply not allow someone to show up with a character with completely dumped physical stats and a random monk level and no way to connect all these things. It's just silly. To that point, I've never played with a DM who would, either, and this leads me to believe that most reasonable people would as well.

Anything can be broken when you're gaming the rules as hard as you can.


While I think that Synthesists are less powerful than vanilla Summoners, I ban it in my games because of its clunky overcomplicateds rules. Actually, those things are somewhat present in the regular Summoner too, but they are a much more serious issue with Synthesists.

I like the idea of Summoners, both vanilla and synthesists, but the class was not very well made... Not even its spell list!


This is just an extreme example that shows the problems with the archetype.You don´t have to dump stats or dip monk for this.Every Halfway optimized Synth (that means Large,Quadruped,Pounce,Full number of attacks and Pumped Physical stats) will be a Monster like no other class can be.


Cheapy wrote:

That change was made for balance issues. BAM! Admittance of balance issues. :p

Enforcing a ' balanced approach' to spending evolution points might work too, much like the wbl guidelines suggest. Still allows a lot of variation. The magic that allows the eidolon to merge with the summoner also forces it to be a bit more humane and less monstrous.

Thats exactly what I suggested. Prohibit Synthesists from taking Size increasing evolutions and limit their base form to Biped.That fits better anyway.Then make sure they don´t get wis to AC and it´s much more reasonable although still borderline OP.


Sleet Storm wrote:
Thats exactly what I suggested. Prohibit Synthesists from taking Size increasing evolutions and limit their base form to Biped.That fits better anyway.Then make sure they don´t get wis to AC and it´s much more reasonable although still borderline OP.

On the other hand, switching Armor to... well, Armor, in this case, is a direct shutdown to bypass a useful ability gained through dipping into a different class. If a player can put together a good build through mixing and matching archetypes, then kudos to the player. It's not just synthesists that allow that, it can be done with anything.

As for limiting to normal Size and Biped, again that's basically weakening the class arbitrarily. I understand that Size Increases and Quadruped are good in a straight-up combat-built eidolon, but saying 'No, you can't do that, it's too OP,' isn't a good way to fix it.

(Note: I'm also not necessarily agreeing on the Synthesist OP viewpoint in the first place. As has been said, optimizing can always result in something insane. That's by no means limited to the Summoner/Synthesist)

Edit: Honestly, I'm with Lemmy, my biggest problem with Synths is that their rules are not explained anywhere near well enough as to make it viable without being a major headache to the player, GM, or both.


Darkwolf117 wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:
Thats exactly what I suggested. Prohibit Synthesists from taking Size increasing evolutions and limit their base form to Biped.That fits better anyway.Then make sure they don´t get wis to AC and it´s much more reasonable although still borderline OP.

On the other hand, switching Armor to... well, Armor, in this case, is a direct shutdown to bypass a useful ability gained through dipping into a different class. If a player can put together a good build through mixing and matching archetypes, then kudos to the player. It's not just synthesists that allow that, it can be done with anything.

As for limiting to normal Size and Biped, again that's basically weakening the class arbitrarily. I understand that Size Increases and Quadruped are good in a straight-up combat-built eidolon, but saying 'No, you can't do that, it's too OP,' isn't a good way to fix it.

(Note: I'm also not necessarily agreeing on the Synthesist OP viewpoint in the first place. As has been said, optimizing can always result in something insane. That's by no means limited to the Summoner/Synthesist)

Edit: Honestly, I'm with Lemmy, my biggest problem with Synths is that their rules are not explained anywhere near well enough as to make it viable without being a major headache to the player, GM, or both.

Well to say that those evolutions are "good" is a massive understatement,don´t you think so?

I mean what other class gets a permanent +8 to strenght and +4Con that stacks with Belts and the likes?(I know the Barb but thats different) Its not like the class doesn´t get bonuses thrown at it left and right anyways.You increase STR/DEX just by leveling,you get free ability score increses for leveling twice(once for the summoner once for the eidolon),you get +2 to AC and saves wich increases to +4 later on and that also stacks with everything,you get a scaling natural armor bonus, you get buff spells,and I have not even started with evolutions yet.....seriously at some point one has to draw a line.


Sleet Storm wrote:

Well to say that those evolutions are "good" is a massive understatement,don´t you think so?

I mean what other class gets a permanent +8 to strenght and +4Con that stacks with Belts and the likes?(I know the Barb but thats different) Its not like the class doesn´t get bonuses thrown at it left and right anyways.You increase STR/DEX just by leveling,you get free ability score increses for leveling twice(once for the summoner once for the eidolon),you get +2 to AC and saves wich increases to +4 later on and that also stacks with everything,you get buff spells.....seriously at some point one has to draw a line.

Well, you pretty much just listed all of the summoner's class features. Like, literally, all of them. Spells+Eidolon is what they get and really, not much more. I would hope that amounts to some useful stuff as they level.

For comparison, a Barb gets their bonus to strength and con, as well, like you said. Along with uncanny dodge, full BAB progression, a larger hit die(I know, temp hp for synth, yeah), scaling DR (and even more with Invulnerable Rager archetype), a number of rage powers to choose from, and more skill points even (though, if we're straight up dumping every physical stat down to 7 on the synth, then I suppose they can probably keep this even)

So... yeah, Synths get a lot of stuff... and so do other classes. Those stat bonuses are cool, but are drawing from the evolution pool that powers the eidolon, which is pretty much one of the summoner's two class features. So, yeah, I would hope they get something useful out of that.


Yeah well, I said what I had to say...

Osirion

Sleet Storm wrote:

Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

Something I had built earlier today while testing sCoreForge:

Spoiler:
"LEVEL 11 MAGUS (Garundi)
(Garundi) Male Magus 11
Init +16; Senses Perception +11, Low-light Vision
==DEFENSE==
AC 41, touch 29, flat-footed 26 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +9 dex, +1 size, +4 natural armor, +2 deflection, +1 luck, +1 insight, +5 canny defense)
hp 91 (11d8+22)
SR 0
Fort +11, Ref +15, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Kensai Canny Defense (PFUC)
==OFFENSE==
Spd 60 ft/x4 Fly 90 ft
Melee Black Blade Scimitar +3 +18/+18/+13 (1d4+24) 15-20/x2 Spell Combat, CM +4, Power Attack
Melee Black Blade Scimitar +5 +20/+20/+15 (1d4+26 [+1d6 ACID]) 15-20/x2 Spell Combat, CM +6, Power Attack
==STATISTICS==
Str 11, Dex 28, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 11, Cha 7
BAB +8, CMB +7, CMD +35
Feats Arcane Strike (PFCR 118), Dervish Dance (PFCaS: ISWG 286), Extra Arcana (PFUM 149), Furious Focus (PFAPG 161), Improved Critical (Scimitar) (PFCR 127), Intensified Spell (PFAPG 163), Power Attack (PFCR 131), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Scimitar, Scimitar) (PFCR 136-137), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar) (PFCR 137)
Skills Acrobatics +20 [Jump +32, Jump with running start +32], Climb +4, Diplomacy +9, Fly +23, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +17, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (planes) +14, Linguistics +6, Perception +11, Perform (dance) +0, Spellcraft +15, Swim +4
Traits Magical Lineage (Magic) (PFAPG 329), Reactionary (Combat) (PFAPG 328)
Languages Abyssal, Auran, Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Osiriani, Varisian
Eq'd Magic Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6, Headband of Vast Intelligence +4, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Ring of Protection +2 (R), Cloak of Resistance +2, Ioun Stone:Dusty Rose Prism, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier

Notes:

  • Damage output does not reflect the 10d6 shocking grasp I'll be tacking on or the fact that I can deliver everything as a touch attack.
  • You added your buffs in. I'm fond of Mage Armor, Shield, Haste and Elemental Body I
  • I had to manually add a few items. The ioun stone did not print, attack sequence did not show me spellstriking a touch attack, unable to add my Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier via the program. Had to manually add the damage for my Black Blade Strike.
  • Output is not listing my Arcana. I have Accurate Strike and Spell Blending (mage armor/touch of fatigue)
  • Second set of Black Blade stats is after augmenting with my arcane pool


Darkwolf117 wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:

Well to say that those evolutions are "good" is a massive understatement,don´t you think so?

I mean what other class gets a permanent +8 to strenght and +4Con that stacks with Belts and the likes?(I know the Barb but thats different) Its not like the class doesn´t get bonuses thrown at it left and right anyways.You increase STR/DEX just by leveling,you get free ability score increses for leveling twice(once for the summoner once for the eidolon),you get +2 to AC and saves wich increases to +4 later on and that also stacks with everything,you get buff spells.....seriously at some point one has to draw a line.

Well, you pretty much just listed all of the summoner's class features. Like, literally, all of them. Spells+Eidolon is what they get and really, not much more. I would hope that amounts to some useful stuff as they level.

For comparison, a Barb gets their bonus to strength and con, as well, like you said. Along with uncanny dodge, full BAB progression, a larger hit die(I know, temp hp for synth, yeah), scaling DR (and even more with Invulnerable Rager archetype), a number of rage powers to choose from, and more skill points even (though, if we're straight up dumping every physical stat down to 7 on the synth, then I suppose they can probably keep this even)

So... yeah, Synths get a lot of stuff... and so do other classes. Those stat bonuses are cool, but are drawing from the evolution pool that powers the eidolon, which is pretty much one of the summoner's two class features. So, yeah, I would hope they get something useful out of that.

The problem is, although the stat and hp bonuses are supposed to be temporary, they are not.

The synthesist nearly gets 2d8 hit die per level thanks to Fused Link. He can get permanent bonuses to Str and Con by 8th levee that exceed l the Barbarian's rage, except they are not temporary and the drawbacks do not balance it. He can stack and stack natural armor bonuses without suffering any encumbrance.

Rage powers don't even come close.

Osirion

Big Lemon wrote:


The synthesist nearly gets 2d8 hit die per level thanks to Fused Link. He can get permanent bonuses to Str and Con by 8th levee that exceed l the Barbarian's rage, except they are not temporary and the drawbacks do not balance it.

He's dumped Con. If the eidolon ever goes down and he's taken any relevant amount of damage, he's already dead. He's dropping 66 real hp when the eidolon goes away with a con of only 7.

1 to 50 of 442 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew / Fixing the Synthesist! Its relatively easy All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.