If you attack with a weapon (unarmed strike), your natural attacks all become secondary attacks (-5 to hit, only 1/2 str). Multiattack reduces the penalty to -2.
Huh, that's been erratad now I see - you are correct. I was looking at my physical book which said you take TWF penalties, but apparently that was changed. DPR for full attack is about 3 higher with this in regard.
I actually didn't intend this build for calculations, I would boost AC more in that case - which can rather easily be done. More to show how natural attacks favor the eidolon at level 5, and that this can be turned when one tries :-)
Yeah I understand it wasn't a fully serious build, and said, the calculations was to a large degree because it was fun to do. I do think the point stands though that even this character that was so focused on offense that it gave up a LOT of defenses still only slightly outdoes the eidolon in damage.
If you attack with a weapon (unarmed strike), your natural attacks all become secondary attacks (-5 to hit, only 1/2 str). Multiattack reduces the penalty to -2.Huh, that's been erratad now I see - you are correct. I was looking at my physical book which said you take TWF penalties, but apparently that was changed. DPR for full attack is about 3 higher with this in regard.
I actually didn't intend this build for calculations, I would boost AC more in that case - which can rather easily be done. More to show how natural attacks favor the eidolon at level 5, and that this can be turned when one tries :-)Yeah I understand it wasn't a fully serious build, and said, the calculations was to a large degree because it was fun to do. I do think the point stands though that even this character that was so focused on offense that it gave up a LOT of defenses still only slightly outdoes the eidolon in damage.
Well, you factor the elemental damage into your build, which is quite a significant chunk for your DPR. It's not like everything is resistent to it, but it won't apply in all cases.
Also, martials are expected to be buffed somehow, particularly with haste and similar spells, so no news there.
The synthesist will have trouble with DR and things that can poison/hurt/... him when touching something with a natural attack.
Move+single attack is going to hurt him quite a bit as well, so that should be factored in.
And as you stated, ranged is a real problem for it.
What I kind of dislike a bit is using mage armor: It eats further into your spells per day, and you need to cast it at least twice (5 hours is too little), so from your total of 8 spells you're down to 6 - which you will need for all that healing stuffe ;-)
But, yes, as stated before, at level 5 the synthesist is at a sweet spot for him. I expect this to change significantly the next levels when the other martials finally get more attacks. :-)
As usually: Levels 1-2 martials shine, 3-5 they are OK but casters/mixed classes catch on, levels 6+ they start excelling again with all their additional options.
I'd love to see how this turns out at level 7? :-)
Finally, just to emphasize it, it's nice to do this kind of thought experiment :-)
Then you're lvl 11 before you can first be huge, level 13 before you get the lvl 10 abilities, and are behind on evolutions and caster levels. (which the caster levels I realize are moot, but still a consideration) The stronger you make this defensively the more you dilute and weaken it's offenses.
Again, back to the whole you can make it a bastion of defense that's nearly impregnable, but then it's like so what? (and to top it off, it's STILL able to be killed by AMF, things that don't care about saves or resists (magic missile baby, enervation!)
Sheild spell? Most Summoners would have it at 1st level... they're just as vulnerable to enervation as every other character with a poor touch AC...
Unless you can gimmick AMF as a ranged spell I can only really see it as a death sentence for the caster... (unless we're talking about tag-teams, in which case, fair enough, multiple high-level spells and multiple higher level characters do have a chance against a Synth. Maybe)
Uhm, I hope you don't think that but it reads like you intend to use shield to boost touch AC - which it does not.
Also, at least for the thought experiment Ilja and I are running buffing with shield eats up a full round due to its short duration, so it wouldn't really help you there... :-)
@Ilja: Since you mentioned a few times that you're ill - I hope you get well soon :-)
Well, you factor the elemental damage into your build, which is quite a significant chunk for your DPR. It's not like everything is resistent to it, but it won't apply in all cases.
Agreed, but it was also built heavily for defense. At level 5 not much is resistant to electricity (only 2/27 CR5 monsters in the first bestiary, didn't check the others) and even without that it'll out-damage the dwarf by far anyway. So I really think that's very minor; it's a lot less than the amount of flying enemies.
Also, martials are expected to be buffed somehow, particularly with haste and similar spells, so no news there.
Well, while the dwarf gains a lot by Haste, access is nowhere guaranteed at level 5, and other buffs (such as bardic performance or heroism) buff the synth and monk's damage far more than the fighter's.
The synthesist will have trouble with DR and things that can poison/hurt/... him when touching something with a natural attack.
With that fort save poison isn't a large issue, but yes, against oozes it will have issues much like the dwarf will have against rust monsters. I think these are pretty fringe cases that might very well come up in a campaign, but only rarely.
Move+single attack is going to hurt him quite a bit as well, so that should be factored in.
I don't see how that's the case. How would that hurt him more than anyone else? His AC is superb, he can fly up so many enemies at this level can't reach him... I just don't see it.
And as you stated, ranged is a real problem for it.
With both flight speed and Wind Wall (although only wind wall rarely) I feel as if ranged is _mostly_ taken care of. Most situations where range is useful can also be solved by fly-running 120 ft/round towards the enemy, and while the dwarf had some ranged option, it was still quite piddly damage, more useful for disrupting casters and dealing with annoyances than prolonged ranged combat.
What I kind of dislike a bit is using mage armor: It eats further into your spells per day, and you need to cast it at least twice (5 hours is too little), so from your total of 8 spells you're down to 6 - which you will need for all that healing stuffe ;-)
Many, many adventuring days are shorter than 5 hours (if you look at AP's as example most fighting is usually concentrated to an hour or two during a day), and notice he's got a wand of both healing and mage armor for when it isn't enough or when healing is needed. The pop of a wand costs only 15gp and lasts for an hour or heals avg 6.5 damage (and notice how hard it is to damage it mundanely - that's enough for quite a while); as soon as it reaches level 8 it'll unlearn healing for something more useful, and at level 11 I'd strongly consider trading away mage armor as well (though high CL has some use due to dispels and general laziness)
But, yes, as stated before, at level 5 the synthesist is at a sweet spot for him. I expect this to change significantly the next levels when the other martials finally get more attacks. :-)
That might very well be - haven't checked out the higher levels.
I can redo it quickly at level 7, if you just post your chosen feats etc! I'd strongly consider weapon spec for the fighter, just sayin'.
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@Ilja:
What I meant with move+attack is that in the case of a single attack (due to moving, e.g. when flying/moving to enemies) the Synthesist will suffer much more.
I also disagree on the ranged damage: The synthesist first has to get to it to hurt it, and I don't consider the damage as piddly as you make it out to be :-)
Casting spells shouldn't be factored in here, because you don't do damage then, and that was your point I thought... If we allow casting/using magic items then the game changes a lot. For example, potions and other consumables become an option, that changes things a lot IMO.
5 hours adventuring day is definitely too short for me, sorry. And the APs I've played definitely have more then 1-2 hours, especially since you don't know *when* the enemy will attack. Otherwise you will have to reduce one round of attacks with your synthesist for casting mage armor ;-)
Also, really, even APs aren't the only thing: People play different games, and I assume at least a 12-14 hour adventuring day: 8 hours resting plus a few hours for eating/cooking/...
Regarding level 7: I'll look at it. I would possibly change the build, but I gotta look into it :-)
@Ilja:
What I meant with move+attack is that in the case of a single attack (due to moving, e.g. when flying/moving to enemies) the Synthesist will suffer much more.I also disagree on the ranged damage: The synthesist first has to get to it to hurt it, and I don't consider the damage as piddly as you make it out to be :-)
Casting spells shouldn't be factored in here, because you don't do damage then, and that was your point I thought... If we allow casting/using magic items then the game changes a lot. For example, potions and other consumables become an option, that changes things a lot IMO.
5 hours adventuring day is definitely too short for me, sorry. And the APs I've played definitely have more then 1-2 hours, especially since you don't know *when* the enemy will attack. Otherwise you will have to reduce one round of attacks with your synthesist for casting mage armor ;-)
Also, really, even APs aren't the only thing: People play different games, and I assume at least a 12-14 hour adventuring day: 8 hours resting plus a few hours for eating/cooking/...Regarding level 7: I'll look at it. I would possibly change the build, but I gotta look into it :-)
Addition: Let's do level 8, at least additionally. Otherwise the next step for martials is lost again...
By the way, I have not yet seen anything that makes synthesists problematic or broken - just a nice package. So this is more for the fun and out of curiosity. Great to look into it together :-)
Tired, quickly posting before going to bed:
Dwarven Fighter Lvl7
Dwarf Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 7
N Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision; Perception +6
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 23 (+10 armor, +3 shield, +1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 53 (7d10+7)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +7; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +9/+9/+4 (1d3+7/x2) and
. . +1 Greatsword +12/+12/+7 (2d6+14/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +3) +11/+11/+6 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks backswing, hatred, overhand chop, relentless, shattering strike +2, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +10 (+12 Sundering); CMD 22 (22 vs. Bull Rush, 24 vs. Sunder, 22 vs. Trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+7 jump), Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +5, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +6 (+8 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride -4, Stealth -4, Survival +5, Swim +1, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant
SQ greed, hardy, slow and steady, stonecunning +2
Other Gear +1 Full plate, +2 Light steel quickdraw shield, +1 Greatsword, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +3), Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +1, 600 GP
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Special Abilities
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Backswing (Ex) Attacks after the first in a full attack receive 2x STR bonus.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Relentless +2 Gain CMB bonus to bull rush/overrun while both self and foe stand on ground.
Shattering Strike +2 (Ex) +2 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Dwarven Fighter Lvl8
Dwarf Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 8
N Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision; Perception +6
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 25 (+11 armor, +3 shield, +1 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 70 (8d10+16)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +7; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +12/+7 (1d3+4/x2) and
. . +1 Greatsword +15/+10 (2d6+10/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4) +11/+6 (1d8+4/x3)
Special Attacks backswing, hatred, overhand chop, relentless, shattering strike +2, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +12 (+14 Sundering); CMD 24 (24 vs. Bull Rush, 26 vs. Sunder, 24 vs. Trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+0 jump), Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +6, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +6 (+8 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride -4, Stealth -4, Survival +5, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant
SQ greed, hardy, slow and steady, stonecunning +2
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Full plate, +2 Light steel quickdraw shield, +1 Greatsword, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4), Belt of giant strength +2, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 240 GP
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Special Abilities
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Backswing (Ex) Attacks after the first in a full attack receive 2x STR bonus.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Relentless +2 Gain CMB bonus to bull rush/overrun while both self and foe stand on ground.
Shattering Strike +2 (Ex) +2 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Tactics for the fighter are:
- Attacking with two-handed weapon
- At the start of the turn he puts his shield away (free action, thanks to quickdraw+quickdraw shield), attacks two-handed, puts it on as a free action again
- He can haste himself for 10 rounds a day (+1 attack, +1 extra attack, +1 reflex saves)
- Thanks to furious focus his first attack is always with power attack at his best bonus starting at level 8
Attack bonus without PA:
- level 7: +14
- level 8: +15
thus his attacks at level 7:
- moving: +12 - 2d6+14
- full attack: +12/+7 - 2d6+14
- hasted: +13/+13/+8 - 2d6+14
thus his attacks at level 8:
- moving: +15 - 2d6+19
- full attack: +15/+7 - 2d6+19
- hasted: +16/+13/+8 - 2d6+19
Finally, an improved monk:
Monk 8th
Male Dwarf Monk (Drunken Master, Qinggong Monk) 8
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 21, flat-footed 21 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 59 (8d8+16)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +11; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +2 Temple sword +13/+8 (1d8+8/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +10/+5 (1d10+4/x2)
Ranged +1 Shuriken +9/+4 (1d2+5/x2) and
. . Sling +8/+3 (1d4+4/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +6/+6/+1/+1, hatred, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki), Dragon's Breath (2 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +12 (+14 Grappling); CMD 31 (31 vs. Bull Rush, 33 vs. Grapple, 31 vs. Trip)
Feats Dodge, Furious Focus, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Power Attack -2/+4, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 19), Weapon Focus (Temple sword)
Skills Acrobatics +12 (+16 jump), Appraise -1 (+1 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +10, Escape Artist +6, Heal +6, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (nature) +0, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +15 (+17 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +6, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +6, Swim +10
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ ac bonus +7, drunken ki, fast movement (+20'), greed, hardy, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, slow and steady, stability, stonecunning +2, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10)
Other Gear +1 Shuriken (50), +2 Temple sword, Sling, Sling bullets (20), Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Bracers of armor +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, 3140 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +7 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Dragon's Breath (2 Ki) (Sp) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Drunken Ki (Su) Drunken Ki pool allows the use of Ki powers.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
High Jump (+8) +8 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
He two-hands his temple sword, though only receiving 1x strength bonus he receives two-handed-power-attack bonus on all his attacks.
To improved defenses he can spend a ki for his monk bonus, spend a ki for barkskin +3, and while moving he has mobility.
He can blast with dragon breath for 8d6 at DC 19.
His attacks in a flurry are
- normal: +13/+13/+8/+8 for 1d8+8
- power attack: +13/+10/+5/+5 for 1d8+17
- power attack + ki: +13/+10/+10/+5/+5 for 1d8+17
- ranged: +9/+9/+4/+4 for 1d2+5 shuriken
- ranged with ki: +9/+9/+9/+4/+4 for 1d2+5 shuriken
Note that the shuriken are recoverable since they count as weapons.
For larger distances he can use his sling
He can regain ki over and over by drinking ale, he got lots of funds left, e.g. to buy tankards of ale...
Hope it's interesting :-)
EDIT: Forgot to add ranged to the dwarf fighter. He has acceptable output, particularly when hasted: 1d8+7 at level 7, 1d8+10 at level 8. Attack bonus is +9/+4 unhasted at level 7 and 8, +10/+10/+5.
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Because of it's duration shield is not really an answer to magic missile for the melee minded (kill what's casting it!)
Also, the summoner really doesn't have any ranged options, you can fly all you want, but that's just letting folks shoot at you for free.
Specifically alot of dungeons at high levels feature anti-magic fields in certain areas, which instantly strips you of your abilities to do anything worthwhile as a caster! It's why parties require non-magical things at many levels. Specifically martial classes at high levels.
Now if you had said Brooch of shielding that's something to actually consider! Specifically if you can craft it.
Calling the synthesist "underpowered" is a new one, though.
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I think the synthesist is only underpowered if you compare it directly to a normal summoner. The synthesist is in NO WAY weak compared to any of the Full BAB or 3/4 BAB classes.
If you built one in a reasonable manner (not dumping all of your physical attributes, for example?) then yes, you're still not as good as when you have your eidolon, but you're certainly less inept without it.
I am looking at the Druid's companion progression and seeing the real problem. Compare the Eidolon side by side with an animal companion and the difference is very clear. Eidolon's have more BaB then 3/4 characters, and with their evolutions are viable characters on their own. Bring the stat and BaB progression down to druid (edit: companion) levels and we will probably be good. The customization of the Eidolon should more then make up for the Druid's additional spells and other abilities.
Flavor does not really allow this. Animal Companions are animals. Eidolons are outsiders.
d8 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for animals: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim.
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
I personally think the fact that Paizo stuck to the template for them is pretty cool.
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Theishi, they already do, they add BAB from non-summoner classes to their BAB while merged.
Also your idea is terrible, as they don't have negative hp, they just *poof* and go home at zero hp.
Fighters are better at fighting than eidolons, the above posters that have stated to the contrary haven't really added why they think that.
So I'd love to know how a eidolon with a bab max of +15 is better at fighting than a fighter with all of his cool fighter feats and a bab +20...
Do you think it's because of the max natural attacks of 7@lvl 19? (I mean the fighter gets that and then some) or the higher amount when you combine natural attacks and weapon attacks (guess who can do that too)
I guess it must be pounce?
No the offense isn't just that crazy.
^ Just of note, that also applies -2 to AC and attack rolls, makes the eidolon take up 9 squares, and gives -4 Dex, along with some Fly and Stealth penalties.
Obviously the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, but for about a third or more of the eidolon's evolution points at level 20, they really should.
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yeah it's pretty awesome if that's the only thing you look at...
if they are combining natural attacks and weapon attacks, those naturals are now at half str, their touch acs are even lower than ever, they have issues in small areas (and if they shrink they lose much of the bonuses)
I think alot of people forget that if you're larger than medium, you have to look at this table and see what happens when you morph yourself down to a smaller critter through reduce or alter self..
so your huge eidolon to fight in a narrow area is now at -8 str, +4 dex, -4 con which has a pretty big impact on things.
Meanwhile the fighter or barbarian is free to be just as strong, and can be grown into larger variants as situations demand. Either through items (and at lvl 20, why not?) or friendly casters.
I think the synthesist is only underpowered if you compare it directly to a normal summoner. The synthesist is in NO WAY weak compared to any of the Full BAB or 3/4 BAB classes.You are right. Compared to fighters and Barbarians, he is very powerful and solid choice. The problem is we are dealing with the archetype, when the archetype isn't the problem. The problem is the summoner, fix him and the synthesist gets fixed as well. The synthesist is less powerful then the summoner.
However, the summoner has one glaring weakness: It has two weak points, both the eidolon and the summoner. I do think the summoner is a bit too strong as a class, but it has several limiting factors in that.
- If not using unfetter, the eidolon cannot move more than 100ft from the summoner, meaning the summoner has to be pretty close to the action and a lot of the eidolon's pounce and/or flight benefit is lost. If using unfetter, life link doesn't work.
- The summoner itself is pretty fragile. It's got d8 hp, no good armor, no shield, not that much in the way of defensive boosts due to very limited spells known/spells per day. If an enemy has range, it's very possible to just off the summoner quite easily, especially since it won't have any belt of dex/con.
- If the opponent has dismissal etc, that can be used on the eidolon and has a decent chance of working, since the eidolon's will save usually isn't that great.
Basically, if you're up against a summoner, having something that can hit the weak point of one of them will drastically weaken the other to. The synthesist merges those two and makes it much more buff, since it has no specific weak points (great will means dismissal is far less likely to land than a SoD against a fighter-type, great physical scores on summoner means less weakness to ranged etc).
I'm not saying the summoner is worse than the synthesist, but it is a rather severe penalty that should NOT be overlooked.
Summoner spellcasting is strong, very strong. I'd say it's the strongest of the non-full casters, at least considering the spells as they are.
They have very good buffing and battlefield control spells. The main limitation of summoner spellcasting is their very limited spells per day. Due to this they need to pick spells that affect many, and/or last a long time, or that really change the battlefield.
Many of their spells are also useful quite a while after they get them - when you're 10th level, you can start casting 2nd level spells quite freely without feeling you're wasting slots, and what do you have there? Wind Wall. Haste. Invisibility. Glitterdust. Create Pit.
All of those are still useful at 10th level - not always, but at 10th level the summoner can know all of those and cast 5 or 6 of them per day. It'll be pretty rare that none of them are useful.
(there's more good ones like Slow, Protection from Arrows etc, but those 5 would be my top choices and match it's spells known).
As a 10th level spell list (Cha22, SF: Conj):
4th (2/day) - Overland Flight, Teleport
3rd (4/day) - Black Tentacles (DC20), Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Ice
2nd (6/day) - Create Pit (DC19), Glitterdust (DC19), Haste, Lesser Restore Eidolon, Wind Wall
1st (7/day) - Alarm, Enlarge Person, Grease (DC18), Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, Mage Armor
This is NOT spellcasting that "blows". It is of course not as strong as a wizard or oracle, but it's good spellcasting that will change the outcome of battles.
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I've played a fair bit with high level summoners and been unimpressed by the spellcasting. Least useful of the casters, I'd say - certainly would much rather have a bard around...
The bard is also an excellent caster as a class, but if you remove it's class abilities otherwise I'd say it's pretty lousy as a spellcaster. The great thing with bard spellcasting is that it works so well with it's other class abilities. If a bard is somehow negated it's bardic music and similar abilities, and a summoner is somehow negated it's eidolon/SM abilities, I think the summoner would be the more useful caster.
Comparing summoner without the eidolon to a bard with other class abilities would be unfair.
That said, it of course also depends on party composition. If you already have a wizard, the bard would be more useful, but if you don't, the summoner has a lot of spells that can't be easily replicated by a bard (or about any other non-full caster except maybe the magus), like teleport and wind wall.
within the first party ruleset the synthesist is pretty crap to multiclass,
First off, you need to go pure to make the class work by RAW
You only get 7 attacks maximum, Haste/swift weapons DON'T WORK
Your hit points are amazing... but you have a hard time regaining them
you lose half your actions
your armor will be low
your spellcasting is decent
Taking the huge evolution is the most common path, but it lowers your armor class even more
you can't use any armor slot items, or gain the beneficial effects of it
you've probably ditched the summon monster abilities
your BAB wont stack with other classes, Because you're using the Eidolon's BAB not your own.
Doesn't sound broken, sounds like a DRUID THAT YOU CAN'T MULTICLASS WHO ROLLS ALL OF THEIR ABILITIES INTO ONE EASILY DESTROYED BASKET
Anti-magic field
Banish ousider
there's a list of spells that can get rid of your eidolon
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I think claiming that your AC will be low is a bit of a stretch. Natural armor, rings of deflection, casting Mage Armor/Shield on yourself (or wearing Bracers of Armor), etc. There are plenty of ways to have decent armor class as a Synthesist.
And your BAB does stack with other classes. A 2 Paladin/5 Synthesist would have +6 BAB when fused with their eidolon.
Really, all this thread has proven is easy is that misunderstanding, misreading, or misinterpreting the Synthesist Summoner's abilities is easy.
I think claiming that your AC will be low is a bit of a stretch. Natural armor, rings of deflection, casting Mage Armor/Shield on yourself (or wearing Bracers of Armor), etc. There are plenty of ways to have decent armor class as a Synthesist.
And your BAB does stack with other classes. A 2 Paladin/5 Synthesist would have +6 BAB when fused with their eidolon.
Really, all this thread has proven is easy is that misunderstanding, misreading, or misinterpreting the Synthesist Summoner's abilities is easy.
My current DM ruled that the Synth in our group stacked BAB, the synth I played that didn't actually was on par with the rest of the party, synth's BAB should stack only with it's own class level the way a monk's flurry of blows does, thus turning the synth into a tank-battlemage.
Then again i've acciedentally used first party writing to get +50 assured damage per round plus sixth level spells with a gunslinger magus build
Well so far the synths i've seen played aren't all that great, the best i've seen was a nat weapon build (Amazingly) and my groups are generally laiden with powergamers. I think the issue is that some classes are simply easier to optimize, and some are trickier, but a good stat builder will always have roughly the same results given enough time.
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and out of the 10 feats you have from all 20 levels, you've spent 3 to do that the duel wielding. (if not 4 for proficiency with better weapons, and 4 for extra evolutions, which leaves 2-3 depending on race left)
You've spent god knows how many evolution points to get. Lets see quadruped with claws(1) arms(2)(holding two weapons, arms(2)(claws), claws(1), arms (2), claws (1). (9points to get those max claw attacks and a bite)
So you've got 17pts left for your eidolon. your secondary attacks are at a +13(not including to hit modifiers like str) and do your 1d6 +1/2str.
within the first party ruleset the synthesist is pretty crap to multiclass,
What do you mean with first party ruleset?
First off, you need to go pure to make the class work by RAW
No, you don't.
You only get 7 attacks maximum, Haste/swift weapons DON'T WORK
No, that only applies to natural attacks. If you have 7 natural attacks haste won't help you (and neither would an AOMF Speed, if those are even possible) but you could have like Greatsword of Speed +X/+X/+X-5 and Natural Attacks +y/+y/+y/+y/+y/+y/+y, in theory.
Your hit points are amazing... but you have a hard time regaining them
Past the few first level they ain't that hard to regain, a wand of rejuvenate eidolon is only 750 gp and heals average 275 hp. If you want to save money going for craft wand isn't worthless (there's a lot of good wand material on the summoner's spell list), though it will cut into your available feats.
your armor will be low
No, not if you build for it. Your armor can be excellent (look at my example level 5 summoner that can cast quite well, has an excellent DPR and AC)
Taking the huge evolution is the most common path, but it lowers your armor class even more
Even without huge you can be pretty awesome, and with it you'll still have pretty good AC and fantastic hit points. And at the point where you can get Huge, healing isn't an issue at all.
you can't use any armor slot items, or gain the beneficial effects of it
Why not?
you've probably ditched the summon monster abilities
In combat, yes, mostly, but out of combat they're still useful (at least once you can communicate with them).
your BAB wont stack with other classes, Because you're using the Eidolon's BAB not your own.
No, they stack. This has been clarified in FAQ.
Anti-magic field
Works against any caster about equally well, and unless against an arcane archer it's a really hard tactic to pull of.
Banish ousider
What is this?
there's a list of spells that can get rid of your eidolon
Yes, but they're pretty much all save-reliant, so it's not unlike Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone or Blindness, just less chance of success.
Agreed, dual-wielding isn't particularly effective when building a synth - it also doesn't capitalize on the synth's greatest asset, it's magnificent strength score.