When 90% of people says it's fine and the 10% of the people says it's not, you can look at the 10% and things to fix...OR you can see it as 90% is okay with it...why muck things up for the 90% that is okay with it. You DO NOT MODIFY A PRODUCT THAT HAS 90% SUCCESS RATE TO TRY AND GET 10% TO BE HAPPY WITH IT.
Actually, you do. You look if there are ways to solve it for those 10% without breaking it for the other 90%.
No it is NOT clear RAW wise. There is MUCH discussion of if the spell should be applied to small/medium or not and the devs are pretty much on the side of resize to medium/small and then apply spell effect.
From the PRD:
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type."That is crystal clear. There's no room for interpretation. That the intent might be something else is true, it could always be something else, but the rules are clear. And as said, there's published monsters that heavily imply that it's intended to work like that.
Umm...who says the theorycraft people don't? The reason why you see the data points you see is because that is the basic data point that most people are interested in. That does not mean that is the ONLY data point that theorycrafters care about or calculate.
That's all fine and dandy, but when you look at the actual posts that are made in theorycrafting threads - which I readily participate in I'd like to add; i'm not against theorycrafting - that's not what happens. What actually is posted is in most cases average DPR assuming a full attack on an enemy with average AC for it's CR, and that has CR equal to the level of the character. Some go into more detail (I try to do this at least) and report standard attack average DPR and against varying CR's and against DR, but much more than that is only very, very rarely seen.
No it is NOT clear RAW wise. There is MUCH discussion of if the spell should be applied to small/medium or not and the devs are pretty much on the side of resize to medium/small and then apply spell effect.From the PRD:
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type."That is crystal clear. There's no room for interpretation. That the intent might be something else is true, it could always be something else, but the rules are clear. And as said, there's published monsters that heavily imply that it's intended to work like that.
If you've taken the form of a small or medium creature, shouldn't you no longer be getting your large/huge size bonuses? I think that's the part he's saying isn't clear RAW-wise.
|
I would very much assume you don't get Strength, Constitution, Natural Armor or damage bonuses when you're not the actually the size to benefit from those things. Of course you could argue "but it doesn't say you do!" but we all know that's some Lawful Evil stuff right there. Using RAW as a shield when RAI is obviously something else is the clearest form of playing in bad faith.
Plenty of classes look ridiculous when you completely ignore the spirit of the rules to abuse their class features. I bet that wannabe dragon loses a big chunk of his Strength and such when he turns into a normal human to hunt pretty ladies.
If you've taken the form of a small or medium creature, shouldn't you no longer be getting your large/huge size bonuses? I think that's the part he's saying isn't clear RAW-wise.
It's irrelevant as the discussion is about being able to use Alter Self to get around in tight spaces.
|
If you've taken the form of a small or medium creature, shouldn't you no longer be getting your large/huge size bonuses? I think that's the part he's saying isn't clear RAW-wise.It's irrelevant as the discussion is about being able to use Alter Self to get around in tight spaces.
Okay...so you want the theorycrafter to go into every possible detail in their calculations but your willing to hand wave away losing 14 str, some con, lots of armor and reach when encounters happen in tight spaces as irrelevant. Sorry, but you just lost ALL credibility in your stance with that statement.
|
You'll have to explain your abbreviation PfE...
And you'll note, if you can read, that the character can only use the summons when the Eidolon is not present.
no need to get snippy but if you're using this feature, you're not using any of the other features you're happy to crow about.
So lets put together your eidolon since you haven't.
lvl 1 monk / lvl 4 synth summoner.
I'm unsure of which flavor monk you're going for, but I'm willing to assume a master of many style.
The stats we know is that you have a 18 wisdom and you said dex is also at a 18 as an eidolon (I'm assuming) You mentioned favored class bonus to hp, so I'm assuming you're not one that gives a 1/4 lvl to bonus evolutions. (which is not optimal)
So I'll for the sake of argument assume it's a racial aasimar variant that goes wis/cha. and you have a 16 and 16 in both physical stats are dumped to bump your con or your int as you see fit (although con would be beneficial)
lvl 4 Summoner
Spells known lvl 1 - Mage Armor, unknownx3 lvl 2 - Bears Strength, Haste, (wait you can only know two lvl 2 spells at lvl 4... so the others have to come from wands!?)
Duration is measured in, minutes? so you're buffing with the knowledge you're in a fight, or you're preparing somehow (generally not the case) A case can be made for the 10min/lvl barkskin though.
So your lvl 5 "uber" eidolon that's broken compared to others, spends anywhere from 1-4 rounds getting all these buffs up you claim.
Lets look at your pounce and hps.
Assuming you have bears endurance at lvl 4/1 like you've done we can assume the max hp while in synthesist form is monk(8) summoner (20) + eidolon (15) + con while in eidolon (5) + favored class (4) so you have a total of 37hp and 15 temp hps while in this form, another set of 10hp if you have bears so total of 47(15)
BAB is +3 and STR bonus is +2(+3 if evolution)...
Lets look at your evolutions now then, I'm assuming you're taking two "extra evolution" feats lvl 1 and 5.
so you have 9 to work with. We know you have three primary attacks, so we'll start there.
(Bite and legs x2 free) Claws 1pt, Natural Armorx2 2, pounce 1. You have 5 points left to do as you see fit, one should of course go to making magical attacks. so 4 pts, I'd assume since you're big in the defense we're looking at the last 4 in either str/dex or str/con.
AC = 32 base 10 + 6 (natural armor) + 4 wisdom +4 mage armor +4 shield +4 dex + 1 dodge
So on the charge you have a grand total of 3 attacks at +8 (bab+str+charge bonus) doing 1d4+3/1d4+3/1d6+3.
So to summarize (and this is guessing since you don't post the build)
hp 47(15)
ac 28-29 or 32-33 (although you're also self casting several spells in combat to do this logistically speaking)
Saves +3/+3/+6 base. (you can add other items like cape of resistance etc, but most likely you're around +4/+7/+10ish.
Attacks +6/+6/+6 1d4+3/1d4+3/1d6+3 MAX possible damage in a round 23. first 1-3 round spent buffing.
let's look at a simple lowly barbarian with a invulnerable rager archetype. Superstitious rage power and beast rage. 16 in str/con racial takes str to 18.
Flip rage and charge first turn even with a power attack penalty his BAB +5+6str+1 weapon focus -2 power attack...
+10 and his base two handed damage is +15 and whatever his weapon does. Regardless of what DR he runs against he can blow through it, he has darkvision, he has 40ft movement. His saves (as a human) are +4/+1/+1 base, and +11/+4/+4(+2 while raging)
HPs barbarian 40 +15 con +10(rage) = 55(10)hp
It looks like this "incredibly broken synthesist summoner" has way less offensive potential, and same hp as a barbarian, and better defenses.
Which would you rather take to a fight? I know my answer is the barbarian because it'll ya know hit things and kill things. The synthesist will be ignored until the party is dead because it can't do anything offensively speaking. He spent all the spells he knows on buffs and self buffs, spends the first few rounds buffing, and then does little effectively in combat.
Oh sure he's hard to hit, and somewhat difficult to land spells on, but he'll go down and there's no worry about his damage if you have say DR silver/coldiron/-/alignment. Lvl 5 is when we start to see many targets pop up with silver or cold iron (juju zombies, devils, etc)
I'm sorry I can't think of anything with pounce at lvl 5, I'm sorry that you're synthesist isn't broken like you want it to be, your pounce is cool but just doesn't do anything. If we took all these characters to lvl 6, we'd have just as many attacks, just only one on the charge. But they'd all be as effective (cept the secondary natural attack would be roughly on par with your primary attacks)
If we went the paladin route, we could meet your ac and saves or come close and with smite bypass any and all DR.
My thoughts here would be as follows:
1. It is much easier to build a demonstrative 11th level Summoner who has bought down his physical scores to the minimum than it is to play a 1st level summoner who has done the same thing up to level 11.
2. Characters built at a higher level are almost always more powerful than characters played from low level up to high level, because they have the magic items they desire, the ability scores they desired at the end, the feats they want in the most favorable order, and so forth. This was a frequent problem in 3.5 Char Op builds that ran to level 20.
3. Depending on the level of system mastery, virtually any character class can be built into an absolute destroyer of Bestiaries that requires special tactics by the GM to challenge or overcome. Similarly, any character class can be played in a way that is not disruptive to the GM. For my part, my goal is typically to mitigate the headaches for the guy who is kind enough to put all the time each week into build an immersive game world for me.
4. Having played around with the synthesist a fair bit, my largest concern would be their interactions in the world and the ability to to wear around a giant sized monster body while interacting with the general public without breaking immersion. I understand this is not an argument for mechanical balance, but often overlooked in arguments about overpowered options in general is how the choices made to take advantage of those options tend to shatter character immersion and work best in war gaming tables.
5. Finally, my experience tends to be that while synthesist defense can be stout, they tend to fall behind in attack bonus and damage at high levels relative to others, which makes them a sort of specialized class rather than a generally dominate class. The class feels very front loaded, and in my experience tends to plateau quite early.
Just my two cents.
|
|
See peter, that's exactly the issues here. The archetype is not broken in the slightest. Gaming it up causes issues (like with any character)
As I've demonstrated above, despite the "zomg I can pounce" and I've got great hps!
A simple barbarian is more effective in combat, and has better hp, I personally think the dr 2/- for a barbarian is more effective than having an AC.
As to the whole alter self debate
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
It's clear that the size bonus to your natural attacks will go down/up and your ac will change. If you read read the description of polymorph you'll see that anything that gives you a form makes you that size and size related bonuses change (which if you read sizes further down you have adjustments to make!)
So reading this we can easily see since alter self reads
ALTER SELF
School transmutation (polymorph); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
|
|
Interesting note is that reduce/enlarge person is not covered by the polymorph rules since it's not in that category of spell.
Interestingly I just got to thinking about shrink item and reduce person, It's possible to make a Colossal throwing knife with shrink item (or even a bullet for a sling) and have it be small while thrown by like a halfling or something who then after throwing it says command word and suddenly it's back from small to colossal size!
The archetype is not broken, neither is anything else unless a very high percentage of GM's have trouble with it. "Broken" is mostly subjective.
Builds can be broken, but I dont know of any broken PF classes.
If "any" synthesis build would cause issues then I would agree, but that is not the case, and the normal summoner is more of an issue than the synthesist. This is based on actually playing, not theorycrafting.
|
|
And at high level play, I expect to see anti-magic areas fields, dimensional anchors, etc.
It doesn't make sense in a magical world that places of high value and importance wouldn't have such things either in place or available. And these things make a synthesist and any other spell caster fairly dead weight.
Anti-magic areas fields are a GM creation, and I see no reason an NPC could get a hold of them,if they are common, but PC's could not.
@lantkvev
Not gonna defend the choises. But loss of +2 str and imp nat attack
Is +1 to hit and +1 dam from the loss of str. Lets add a +2 str item.
And a flaming amulet of mighty fist.
The build still isnt close to WBL. And it just gained a free feat and 2 evolution points.
Now where your build?
We seem to have moved to lvl 5 builds instead - why? The syntesists first major capstone is when it get the stupid huge bonus for being large. At level 8. Before that he's okay. But with that one evolution he just gets silly.
Syntesists and the world...
If the gm has a problem with the syntesist (and i think he should) he can make people react hostile to the giant troll shape syntesist walking through town.
But to be fair he should also make people react to all the other weird stuff that pc's tend to have.
Shining swords and armor from greater magic weapon, magic vestment.
Did the paladin wear his fullplate to the ball?
The drunken barbarian that carries alcohol in huge quantities.
The alchemist with 4 arms.
And so on...
In 3.5 i had a anima mage with several vestiges, persistend bite of wererat and greater blink, elemental body - he was pretty weird looking.
I have followed this thread for the last days; count me in the camp that does not think the Synthesist is OP. It's OK, not broken - at least not more than any other class for which you try to make a "broken" build :-)
@lantkvev
...
Syntesists and the world...
If the gm has a problem with the syntesist (and i think he should) he can make people react hostile to the giant troll shape syntesist walking through town.
But to be fair he should also make people react to all the other weird stuff that pc's tend to have.
Shining swords and armor from greater magic weapon, magic vestment.
Did the paladin wear his fullplate to the ball?
The drunken barbarian that carries alcohol in huge quantities.
The alchemist with 4 arms.
And so on...In 3.5 i had a anima mage with several vestiges, persistend bite of wererat and greater blink, elemental body - he was pretty weird looking.
The reaction of the world towards a synthesis argument is what I had considered bringing up, but someone else already did. I think it is very important because there is a VERY big difference between something decidedly not human/elven/..., large/huge, with claws etc., vs someone with shiny swords or armor but still human/elven/...
The paladin who did not bring is fullplate still has his ability scores and can still hurt and defend himself adequately. The ridiculously ability dumped min-maxed builds here won't stand a chance at all without their synthesist armor.I agree on the multi-armed alchemist, though - personally when I DM I make sure reactions are appropriate :-)
And as others have mentioned, there are more than enough easily available and reasonable counters to a synthesist, and in may situations you will not be able to use that big, hulky armor (tight spaces, indoors etc.) - so I am not worried :-)
|
|
Level 5 is addressing Funky Badger (who for whatever reason arbitrarily picked that level, I think because he knew no other class could pounce at that point, although I guess he forgot that it's also not relevant, because even pouncing it'll be less effective than most other classes!)
Lets look at what other classes get around lvl 8-9.
Wizards at lvl 8, get a new school ability and clerics and wizards get lvl 5 at 9...
Sorcerers get bloodline powers at 9
Most the melee's start getting the "cool stuff" at 10, so they're a tad behind but it's no biggie.
let's look at the highest possible str a barbarian can have at 8 (without being an orc)
20+4 item + 4 rage + 4 size (lesser mask of giants)
str 32. at lvl 9 it can pounce as well, and will hit more accurately and for more. Oh, and DR while raging 5/- and similar hp pools.
...
We have what I imagine to be a typical table, with 20-25 point buy for nearly every game, and most of the time it's all available PF material only.
That said, the greater hat of disguise was used by the synthesist at our table, but it was largely used to blend in with the people, and making it very simple to be combat-ready (a free action to lose the hat, if I remember that right), and not in any way used to work himself into tight spaces and still fight like that (not that I'm sure how that's supposed to work anyway, losing his reach and all, too).
I threw all the tricks available to me by the AP at him, and killed the rest of the party instead. His defenses were just too good, and none of what people are saying on this thread should have worked on him did. It was my deadliest game, and he barely had a scratch on him. To all of us, then, it was enough to know that we can't do this again.
Maybe it was our game that was in the margins, but thinking upon our setup, I kinda doubt that.
|
|
ENERVATION
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray of negative energy
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If you hit, the subject gains 1d4 temporary negative levels (see Special Abilities). Negative levels stack.Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of becoming permanent, but the negative levels from enervation don't last long enough to do so
I've always treated the negative levels as applying both to the "shell" and the summoner since when they are separated they are still subject to the conditions they received while together, and it makes sense.
Each ray will knock of 10hp and -1 everything pretty much.
You can also try things like Baleful Polymorph, the fort saves, even with size bonuses are going be the lower of his stats I'd imagine. You could decide to treat it as a polymorph effect and let a tetori grappler negate it.
You can also use trap the soul, but that's just mean.
Frankly I'd either look at the encounters and/or audit his sheet. Most synthesists that are untouchable, also aren't worth touching because they simply don't do much offensively!
If you can post the build of the offending eidolon, I'm sure we can either show you the chinks in its armor, or where it's illegally built.
|
|
...We have what I imagine to be a typical table, with 20-25 point buy for nearly every game, and most of the time it's all available PF material only.
That said, the greater hat of disguise was used by the synthesist at our table, but it was largely used to blend in with the people, and making it very simple to be combat-ready (a free action to lose the hat, if I remember that right), and not in any way used to work himself into tight spaces and still fight like that (not that I'm sure how that's supposed to work anyway, losing his reach and all, too).
I threw all the tricks available to me by the AP at him, and killed the rest of the party instead. His defenses were just too good, and none of what people are saying on this thread should have worked on him did. It was my deadliest game, and he barely had a scratch on him. To all of us, then, it was enough to know that we can't do this again.
Maybe it was our game that was in the margins, but thinking upon our setup, I kinda doubt that.
Umm...okay so you run a bit higher then normal point buy...no biggie.
The hat is a standard to turn off or on...not a free. If he argues that he should be able to remove the hat(a move action I would say...certainly not a free since dropping an item in hand is a free...I could see swift) and drop it as a free, why isn't a mook picking up that 6k magic item and running off with it? I suspect that a few hats later, your player may want to keep expensive magical items off the ground.
No combat in normal sized hallways and rooms and you honestly threw everything the AP had at him? Seriously, you HAVE to adjust the AP for this to happen...so no, you did not throw everything the AP had. And considering this lapse, I suspect there were many...oh so many other aspects that let your synth shine.
And I noticed you still failed to show the offending summoner still.
From what you posted, it really doesn't sound like it's a class issue...it's how you ran the game issue. And there maybe a illegally built issue as well.
Okay...so you want the theorycrafter to go into every possible detail in their calculations but your willing to hand wave away losing 14 str, some con, lots of armor and reach when encounters happen in tight spaces as irrelevant. Sorry, but you just lost ALL credibility in your stance with that statement.If you've taken the form of a small or medium creature, shouldn't you no longer be getting your large/huge size bonuses? I think that's the part he's saying isn't clear RAW-wise.It's irrelevant as the discussion is about being able to use Alter Self to get around in tight spaces.
In my experience it's quite rare that the fight itself takes place in a 5ft corridor, rather they are means of transportation. My thought was that Alter Self was used to counter partly the difficulty moving around out of combat and the social implications of being something really weird. My though was that Alter Self was used to be able to quickly (standard action Dismiss) turn into the monster when a fight is at hand.
I agree that in the situation where the actual fighting is in a 5ft narrow corridor, the large eidolon is quite screwed. In my experiences that's quite rare though, and in those situations the summoner can spend it's turns buffing.
I think it might also be quite a dissonance in the discussion. People seem to say "it's fine" or "it's broken" - what seems weird is that there seems to be no middle-ground; "it's too strong compared to the weaker classes, but won't break the game unless you try to break the game".
That's kind of my viewpoint, though I've only seen two synthesists in games and those where definately not combat monsters (about 0 optimization on their part) but the combination of theorycrafting and people's experience seems to point to them being very easy to make really strong, and I can very well understand that a fighter, rogue, monk or similar class, or at lower levels a wizard, cleric or similar might feel that it does what they do and better than them, especially if the other player isn't a master of optimization.
...We have what I imagine to be a typical table, with 20-25 point buy for nearly every game, and most of the time it's all available PF material only.
That said, the greater hat of disguise was used by the synthesist at our table, but it was largely used to blend in with the people, and making it very simple to be combat-ready (a free action to lose the hat, if I remember that right), and not in any way used to work himself into tight spaces and still fight like that (not that I'm sure how that's supposed to work anyway, losing his reach and all, too).
I threw all the tricks available to me by the AP at him, and killed the rest of the party instead. His defenses were just too good, and none of what people are saying on this thread should have worked on him did. It was my deadliest game, and he barely had a scratch on him. To all of us, then, it was enough to know that we can't do this again.
Maybe it was our game that was in the margins, but thinking upon our setup, I kinda doubt that.
Umm...okay so you run a bit higher then normal point buy...no biggie.
The hat is a standard to turn off or on...not a free. If he argues that he should be able to remove the hat(a move action I would say...certainly not a free since dropping an item in hand is a free...I could see swift) and drop it as a free, why isn't a mook picking up that 6k magic item and running off with it? I suspect that a few hats later, your player may want to keep expensive magical items off the ground.
No combat in normal sized hallways and rooms and you honestly threw everything the AP had at him? Seriously, you HAVE to adjust the AP for this to happen...so no, you did not throw everything the AP had. And considering this lapse, I suspect there were many...oh so many other aspects that let your synth shine.
And I noticed you still failed to show the offending summoner still.
From what you posted, it really doesn't sound like it's a class issue...it's how you ran...
Having a mook run off with the hat... implies that a mook could get that close and escape. Also, that they know its value immediately, and that it's worth the risk. Further, that targeting several hats, assuming he kept replacing them, on the same character, implies that the hat is the actual problem, and it's not, when I can simply talk to my player and tell him ways in which to tone his character down (like ruling a more solid action economy for the magic item if that's really the issue, and looking back, I'm not convinced it was).
I'm not saying the hat was run just fine; I can be convinced that I needed to shore that up (and your case for that is compelling enough for me to listen), but when I look at the whole picture, the hat was hardly cause for concern considering the rest of the character.
The player who played the synthesist is on the forum; I'll let him post it if he wants to.
IIRC, he was large size for most of the AP. His size did come as a detriment at times, but not nearly an insurmountable problem. He would either work with the penalties in place or change strategies so he didn't have to melee that much. He is a pretty savvy player; he knew when he needed to crush things and when to alter tactics. And really, it's as I said before: making something come up as dangerous against him would usually mean certain death for his friends.
|
|
In my experience it's quite rare that the fight itself takes place in a 5ft corridor, rather they are means of transportation. My thought was that Alter Self was used to counter partly the difficulty moving around out of combat and the social implications of being something really weird. My though was that Alter Self was used to be able to quickly (standard action Dismiss) turn into the monster when a fight is at hand.I agree that in the situation where the actual fighting is in a 5ft narrow corridor, the large eidolon is quite screwed. In my experiences that's quite rare though, and in those situations the summoner can spend it's turns buffing.
It's not JUST 5ft wide corridors. How tall is the ceiling where you are fighting? If it's a building made for medium sized critters and it's NOT a grand hall, large maybe not an option and huge is definately out. And everytime an enemy walks past a medium sized door, well your outa luck there aren't you. Quite a few of the encounters in APs happen indoors...in normal buildings for medium sized critters.
|
|
Having a mook run off with the hat... implies that a mook could get that close and escape. Also, that they know its value immediately, and that it's worth the risk. Further, that targeting several hats, assuming he kept replacing them, on the same character, implies that the hat is the actual problem, and it's not, when I can simply talk to my player and tell him ways in which to tone his character down (like ruling a more solid action economy for the magic item if that's really the issue, and looking back, I'm not convinced it was).
I'm not saying the hat was run just fine; I can be convinced that I needed to shore that up (and your case for that is compelling enough for me to listen), but when I look at the whole picture, the hat was hardly cause for concern considering the rest of the character.
The player who played the synthesist is on the forum; I'll let him post it if he wants to.
IIRC, he was large size for most of the AP. His size did come as a detriment at times, but not nearly an insurmountable problem. He would either work with the penalties in place or change strategies so he didn't have to melee that much. He is a pretty savvy player; he knew when he needed to crush things and when to alter tactics. And really, it's as I said before: making something come up as dangerous against him would usually mean certain death for his friends.
So your synth player would stick around where he dropped the hat for the ENTIRE combat? Well if he is rooted in place, I don't see how he could be even remotely be a valid threat in combat. As for powerful magical items, the mook saw him take it off and magic happens as he resizes and reforms into his normal self. Kinda easy to conclude powerful magic...even if it's powerful supressive magic...and powerful magic = money. They don't have to know exactly what it is to want free money dropped on the ground.
His constant large size should have come up more then at times. Like I said above, it's not just 5ft wide corridors...it's pretty much combat in any building made for medium sized critters. Now if you enforce the action encomy of the hat without letting him go huge all willy nilly, I think you may have found it a lot easier to deal with. Course he would kinda win in outdoor fights vs none casters...but so does the flying invis wizard.
And so he's a good player it sounds like...were the other players equally savvy? If not...once again, not an issue with the class. Better players will be...well better. And if they did not optimize as much...well that just compounds the issue. But that is all not an issue with the class, that is a player issue.
|
|
yes because they are one at that point. Again, everyone who is claiming it's broke, is comparing it a) to others trying to do what they are doing and not playing a class suited for it, or are doing it sub-optimal.False.
In our Jade Regent game, the Synthesist (with a couple levels of Paladin) is better at combat (more attacks at higher bonuses for more damage AND more HP) than my Two-Weapon Warrior. A wizard variant that makes a Fighter superfluous by staying engaged in melee combat? That's me comparing a character whose class is designed to be the master at something to a Synthesist who is choosing to do it, not the other way around.
Also, every other class that gets "auto" spells has to burn spells from their standard casting slots to use the, The Summoner does not. Interesting departure from one of the controls to keep classes balanced, hunh?
Also, the Summoner spell list is built specifically to allow the Summoner to have access to the more limited selection of spells that he gets at the same level that a Wizard gets those spells. You might notice that all the other "partial" caster builds do that as a rare exception, keeping the majority of spells at the same spell level, not the same character level, for access.
The Summoner class as a whole was built by ignoring the rules which have been in place to keep the classes balanced with each other. In the home game, I don't care so much, because we're all having fun playing together. But claiming that the class isn't a violation of the balancing rules is refusing to even compare it to the rest of the classes in the system.
Fallacy. Just because somebody can make a better build then your TWF whatever does not mean the class is broken. It means they are better at optimizing then you maybe. For all we know, you took skill focus craft basket weaving instead of TWF feats while he took actually relivant feats. Like I said acedotal evidence without any detail is pretty much because I said so and is not a useful data point...at all. So give details or stop with such silly things.
Now I DO agree with you on the summoner spell list. It does have a pretty large number of adjusted spell level spells on it. And while that alone would not really bug me, the magus got pretty much ZIP adjusted for "balance" and so...yeah the summoner list kinda does bug me now. The fix however for me would be adjust the magus spell list to something more reasonable.
|
|
I don't think anyone will disagree that the Summoner spell list is kinda nuts. But remember, that's because most Summoners are pretty much full-casters with only 6 levels of spells, and the Eidolon is doing all the heavy lifting.
The Synthesist gives up its fantastic action economy for the ability to do the heavy lifting themselves... but they can't cast at the same time. So, yes, the Synthesist can absolutely buff his party, but he ain't eating people's faces at the same time.
and the synthesist also needs arms to cast--that's evolution points towards Arm evolution, if you started as quadrupedal for pounce. Not much, but should be considered.
|
|
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?You complained that people were comparing their (whatever) characters attempting to work outside of their specialties against the Synthesist. I replied with a real-practice example of the opposite, and your response is to dismiss the example by being dismissive of my capability to build effective characters?
Self-delusion is one thing. Going out of your way to spread the delusion and deny things that you don't want to hear is another. Going out of your way to insult people who dare address the holes in your arguments is far, far worse. Learn to support a position by supporting it, and you will find life actually does become simpler.
Nothing like proving to the studio audience that discourse is not on your agenda.
And STILL no details I see. I could make a wizard...straight up wizard that kicks the living snot out of the iconic warriors. You have failed to prove that there was an equal level of optimization for your assertion to be held correct...instead you go into vitriol mode. I suspect that I may have hit a bit to close to the truth no? Either put up or shut up. Post both builds...if they both had the same level or even remotely the same level of optimization, then we may have a discussion point...otherwise, your just another one of those "roleplayers" who makes gimped characters and they get prissy when they can't actually do anything (or not...but until you prove to me otherwise, I'll just assume that is the truth about you because your diatribe makes me believe so).
|
|
let's see a summoner is on medium BAB progression (3 attacks at lvl 20) and fighter is on, well fighter BAB prog, 4 at lvl 20.
He has access to fighter feats synthesist doesn't. Has a ton of those feats to boot
Also he isn't spending feats on extra evolutions etc...
at lvl 6 a two weapon fighter should have no problem pumping out three to four much more accurate attacks.
likewise lvl 11, 4 or 5 or more and lvl 16, 6 or more... lvl 20, 7 or more...
So let's start by asking what lvl your TWF was that was getting "beat" by this big mean synthesist... and how many attacks was the synthesist getting and at what bonuses.
Then we can show you the following, and I promise one of these will be true:
Where you weren't optimized or where the synthesist was breaking rules or what you're leaving out that it couldn't do.
|
|
I just got to thinking, since I don't think you will do the above, how about this.
Pick any level, and we'll assume standard PFS options (except you can be a synthesist) and standard wealth by level.
Most of us paying attention to this are good optimizers, and I'm sure we can show you what the max offensive capabilities are for a fighter of the chosen level and a synthesist.
I will tell you simply this. It's the same thing i heard from my rpga certified DM in 3.5 D&D and these words a are simple. If you have a problem with any material then CHUCK IT OUT THE AIRLOCK AND SHUT THE DOOR BEHIND YOU! Is it really worth pointing out broken builds so other players can exploit them? We are all adults here (we ARE all ADULTS here, right?)
So if a class is felt to be broken then don't include the build as a choice. All of these are simple suggestions anyway.
So if you want to "fix" the "problem" get rid of the problem. I've seen the build myself. Multiclassing isn't my thing anyway. If a players worth his salt he won't exploit loopholes and if he isn't then I look at the sheet and erase it. Simple. Why worry about broken characters if you can see them by "Staring at the sheet" just say NO! You have the power DM's so quit whining.
Because there are tons of people (specifically on these boards) claiming DMs shouldnt be able to do that, and it's a perfectly ok build because it follows the rules, and no one should be able to say "its my way or the highway"
Seriously, I'm not sure WHO these people play with.... each other?
Fallacy. Just because somebody can make a better build then your TWF whatever does not mean the class is broken. It means they are better at optimizing then you maybe. For all we know, you took skill focus craft basket weaving instead of TWF feats while he took actually relivant feats.yes because they are one at that point. Again, everyone who is claiming it's broke, is comparing it a) to others trying to do what they are doing and not playing a class suited for it, or are doing it sub-optimal.False.
In our Jade Regent game, the Synthesist (with a couple levels of Paladin) is better at combat (more attacks at higher bonuses for more damage AND more HP) than my Two-Weapon Warrior. A wizard variant that makes a Fighter superfluous by staying engaged in melee combat? That's me comparing a character whose class is designed to be the master at something to a Synthesist who is choosing to do it, not the other way around.
So, you're going to ignore the fact that the variant WIZARD class is a better melee combatant than a Fighter and respond with personal insults as a way of supporting your decision to ignore this reality?
You complained that people were comparing their (whatever) characters attempting to work outside of their specialties against the Synthesist. I replied with a real-practice example of the opposite, and your response is to dismiss the example by being dismissive of my capability to build effective characters?
Self-delusion is one thing. Going out of your way to spread the delusion and deny things that you don't want to hear is another. Going out of your way to insult people who dare address the holes in your arguments is far, far worse. Learn to support a position by supporting it, and you will find life actually does become simpler.
Nothing like proving to the studio audience that discourse is not on your agenda.
Show me this wizard you speak of.
A summoner is also not a wizard variant. It actually used the bard chassis if anything.
Having a mook run off with the hat... implies that a mook could get that close and escape. Also, that they know its value immediately, and that it's worth the risk. Further, that targeting several hats, assuming he kept replacing them, on the same character, implies that the hat is the actual problem, and it's not, when I can simply talk to my player and tell him ways in which to tone his character down (like ruling a more solid action economy for the magic item if that's really the issue, and looking back, I'm not convinced it was).
I'm not saying the hat was run just fine; I can be convinced that I needed to shore that up (and your case for that is compelling enough for me to listen), but when I look at the whole picture, the hat was hardly cause for concern considering the rest of the character.
The player who played the synthesist is on the forum; I'll let him post it if he wants to.
IIRC, he was large size for most of the AP. His size did come as a detriment at times, but not nearly an insurmountable problem. He would either work with the penalties in place or change strategies so he didn't have to melee that much. He is a pretty savvy player; he knew when he needed to crush things and when to alter tactics. And really, it's as I said before: making something come up as dangerous against him would usually mean certain death for his friends.
So your synth player would stick around where he dropped the hat for the ENTIRE combat? Well if he is rooted in place, I don't see how he could be even remotely be a valid threat in combat. As for powerful magical items, the mook saw him take it off and magic happens as he resizes and reforms into his normal self. Kinda easy to conclude powerful magic...even if it's powerful supressive magic...and powerful magic = money. They don't have to know exactly what it is to want free money dropped on the ground.
His constant large size should have come up more then at times. Like I said above, it's not just 5ft wide...
My overall point in that was that the hat was not the problem. Therefore, I didn't target it for removal by some idiot NPC who would simply mess with a hostile giant versus actually trying to kill it. By the way, there was a time when he rolled a 1 on a reflex save vs. a fireball and lost his hat. Not much changed, really, during the time it was gone.
And no, being large or huge wasn't that big of a problem. Penalties are in place for those situations, but not much harder to deal with than other conditions in the game (sickened, shaken, slowed etc). These are not the major drawbacks you make them out to be. In other words, we both were paying close attention to how big each room really was.
If it needs to be said, he is the best optimizer in the group. He generally does have the best characters. We have certain expectations in place for each of us. This group has been playing for years.
That said, the synthesist went above and beyond what any of us were expecting, and even the player agrees that they are too powerful. I don't at all have a problem with the player. The character was too much. So when any of us GM, including him, synthesists are banned.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I second that, for that & other reasons.
I don't have the sheet handy right in front of me, but it wasn't that complicated. He was a grappler. He got a bunch of those grappling feats, he'd just Zangief all over the place, combat reflexes and his eidolon was big and had reach. One level in a monk, not sure about archetype, but tetori would probably make sense there. Old human. Sorry I can't be more specific, but the game was a while ago.
EDIT: I had to talk to the group for a couple of details I missed upthread, to give you guys an idea of how much we've moved on since this game.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, so he was abusing things like age categories to get ridiculous mental stats, then replacing his awful physical stats with the eidolon?
So taking the spirit of the rules and just generally disregarding them. Fair enough. I have never played under a DM who would allow things like that. It's a shame, the archetype really isn't broken, you just have a friend who doesn't know when to calm it with the min/maxing, and now nobody can give it a shot.
Being old only gives +2 int/wis/cha. while it's powerful, it doesn't make or break a character. But I agree it's a bit cheesy and a rules interpretation that grants the eidolon more power (note that among the pregens, the wizard seems at least middle-aged but does not have ability score modifiers from age).
|
|
For a Monk/Synthesist, that's +1 Skill Point/Level, +1 Language known, +1 Will save, +1 to a huge number of useful skills, +1 DC to all of your spells, and +1 AC (if I haven't forgotten anything).
For absolutely no detriment. The whole idea of those old-age bonuses/penalties is that the penalty is actually pretty hard on you. To completely ignore it is ridiculous.
A middle-aged wizard not being as spry as his younger counterpart, but wizened and smarter? Completely reasonable. A venerable synthesist summoner who throws on his twelve-armed, four-legged Kamen Rider suit and starts doing German Suplexes on things? Very much less so.
The other part about that is that as far as I know, PF doesn't have any other class that outright replaces physical stats like that. Druids don't in PF for, what I thought, was this very reason. In hindsight, of course.
And for the record, it wasn't like he had all 6s in physical stats or anything. He didn't try that hard with this particular character to make it very powerful, which makes it all the more insulting that it was.
So when somebody brought up fixing the synthesist, my first thought was the stat replacing madness. Second, was the HP.
EDIT: I'm also not sure what you mean by abusing the age rules. Then again, I might just be a bit more permissible as a GM.
Aren't people saying you won't benefit from the Eidolon armor all the time? Isn't that pointed out as one of the major drawbacks of being a synth?
Aren't people saying you won't benefit from the Eidolon armor all the time? Isn't that pointed out as one of the major drawbacks of being a synth?
He wasn't up all the time. Most of the time, sure. When it mattered, almost all the time. He did cast spells. He did summon creatures. Those were still part of his toolbox, so certainly he used them when it called for it.
One part of the AP, and how I ran it, is that there were a lot of surprise encounters. Ambushes and such. The party either died or adapted (and boy were there deaths in this one). He, quite simply, was ready for nearly anything.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The situations where the Synthesist without his eidolon are:
1) In public, where he doesn't want to be seen as a horrific monster
2) Sleeping
3) When he needs to use Summon Monster
Other than these three, he can pretty much be in his eidolon shell all the time. Number 2 is really the big one, as it means he can be coup de grace'd in his sleep rather easily (weak Fort save combined with a -2 to Fort saves from a 6 Constitution) but the others can be worked around.
I agree that the Synthesist really should work more like the Druid's Wildshape, but I don't write the rules, I can only play with them as written.
My Synthesist doesn't have terribly dumped stats (she has an 11 Str and 10 Dex, but more Constitution than in her eidolon form (14 vs. 13), and I'm going out of my way to pick her evolutions for flavor, not because lol must charge pounce murder everything while being unkillable, and I think that if people didn't go digging for specific ways to bend the archetype to their will, the Synthesist would be far less maligned.
I find it interesting that at least two of the builds that are supposed to show that synthesists are OP are multiclassed, one with paladin and one with monk. To me that does not say much about the synthesist archetype but rather about potentially efficient combinations :-)
The discussion there reminds me of barbarian/oracle or barbarian/martial artist combinations which can rage cycle at low levels: some don't like it and ban it, others are fine with it...
Regarding the grappler: I don't see how that kind of tactic works at higher levels. Too many opponents get bonuses that are too high to guarantee success, the there are flying/ranged enemies, those utilizing freedom of movement or similar effects... What level are we talking about here?
The age thing is kind of cheesy, though. Personally I have played old (martial) characters a few times, but that was primarily for RP reasons and we froze those bonuses and penalties at the first step. "optimizing" like that monk/synthesist player apparently has done would have been difficult with my GMs... ;-)