Sleet Storm wrote:

Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

Something I had built earlier today while testing sCoreForge:

** spoiler omitted **...

This is not a Monk though:).The Magus has its own issues. I could nitpick your build now and say that you can´t get Powerattack with 11STR ,that damage per hit is totally off(should be more like 1d4+15). But I wont. Instead I will admit that it´s a good build.Still not even close to the package the summoner gets.

Going to sleep the sleep of the righteous now...

So, what, because it's not on the level of a Monk it's not acceptable? Let's face it, you have opinions on the balance of classes that seems intensely out of whack to me.

I can go find a Zen Archer that's soloing the Tarrasque, will that make you happy? You can do stupid things with any class.

So, what, because it's not on the level of a Monk it's not acceptable? Let's face it, you have opinions on the balance of classes that seems intensely out of whack to me.

I can go find a Zen Archer that's soloing the Tarrasque, will that make you happy? You can do stupid things with any class.

No, the problem is that you can not prove that a class/archetype is not broken by matching it with "the other broken class".There is something in this game called the core assumption. And all this stuff is miles away from that.

So... wait, you're presenting a fully optimized synthesist build, calling it broken, then saying no other fully optimized classes can be used to suggest that it's actually balanced, because we should be assuming that we're considering this in relation to all the not broken (i.e. not optimized) stuff.

Um...?

Also, who says Magus is broken? How many classes do you consider to be broken?

Edit: Hmm... retracted, to see the answer to the below question before I start saying stuff.

Edit 2: Nevermind, no longer retracted after quoting I suppose.

Seranov wrote:

So, what, because it's not on the level of a Monk it's not acceptable? Let's face it, you have opinions on the balance of classes that seems intensely out of whack to me.

I can go find a Zen Archer that's soloing the Tarrasque, will that make you happy? You can do stupid things with any class.

No, the problem is that you can not prove that a class/archetype is not broken by matching it with "the other broken class".There is something in this game called the core assumption. And all this stuff is miles away from that.

What's the core assumption?

So... wait, you're presenting a fully optimized synthesist build, calling it broken, then saying no other fully optimized classes can be used to suggest that it's actually balanced, because we should be assuming that we're considering this in relation to all the not broken (i.e. not optimized) stuff.

Um...?

Also, who says Magus is broken? How many classes do you consider to be broken?

Currently:Summoner,Magus,Sylvan Sorcerer and Gunslinger.But the Synthesist tops it all.

Sleet Storm wrote:

Seranov wrote:

So, what, because it's not on the level of a Monk it's not acceptable? Let's face it, you have opinions on the balance of classes that seems intensely out of whack to me.

I can go find a Zen Archer that's soloing the Tarrasque, will that make you happy? You can do stupid things with any class.

No, the problem is that you can not prove that a class/archetype is not broken by matching it with "the other broken class".There is something in this game called the core assumption. And all this stuff is miles away from that.

What's the core assumption?

The CRB

Darkwolf117 wrote:

So... wait, you're presenting a fully optimized synthesist build, calling it broken, then saying no other fully optimized classes can be used to suggest that it's actually balanced, because we should be assuming that we're considering this in relation to all the not broken (i.e. not optimized) stuff.

Um...?

Also, who says Magus is broken? How many classes do you consider to be broken?

Currently:Summoner,Magus,Sylvan Sorcerer and Gunslinger.But the Synthesist tops it all.

How is Sylvan broken?

That synthesist/monk is rather easy to take down.

a) Dispel magic cast by a 11th level caster is going to strip the Bestow Grace on any die roll other than one. That is the problem with casting from a wand, minimum caster level.
b) Ensure the fight is in a five foot wide corridor. The charge and pounce is stripped away. The synthesist is reduced to one attack a round and double movement costs.
c) Shrink the 5' wide hallway to 4' wide by adding a wall of stone along one side. Now, the synthesist has lost his dex (and likely monk) AC bonuses and is making escape artist checks to be able to even move. Oops! He forgot to invest in the escape artist skill.
d) A Dimensional Anchor to block the Dimension Door every synthesist has, and now he is a sitting duck just waiting to be pounded upon.

Of course, the proper order is b, d, c then a.

Paizo has done a great job of making sure, for every advantage you think you have, you will have some disadvantage that someone can exploit.

How is Sylvan broken?

Because Full Arcane Casting, Share Spells and an Animal Companion are a Paradigm Shift on a Class that is already one of the most powerfull classes out there.

That synthesist/monk is rather easy to take down.

a) Dispel magic cast by a 11th level caster is going to strip the Bestow Grace on any die roll other than one. That is the problem with casting from a wand, minimum caster level.
b) Ensure the fight is in a five foot wide corridor. The charge and pounce is stripped away. The synthesist is reduced to one attack a round and double movement costs.
c) Shrink the 5' wide hallway to 4' wide by adding a wall of stone along one side. Now, the synthesist has lost his dex (and likely monk) AC bonuses and is making escape artist checks to be able to even move. Oops! He forgot to invest in the escape artist skill.
d) A Dimensional Anchor to block the Dimension Door every synthesist has, and now he is a sitting duck just waiting to be pounded upon.

Of course, the proper order is b, d, c then a.

Paizo has done a great job of making sure, for every advantage you think you have, you will have some disadvantage that someone can exploit.

Yeah and he is just going to stand there and watch you dismante him.

Katz wrote:

How is Sylvan broken?

Because Full Arcane Casting, Share Spells and an Animal Companion are a Paradigm Shift on a Class that is already one of the most powerfull classes out there.

sorcerers aren't really one of the most powerful classes...spontaneous casting is awesome, yeah, but they have a fairly limited spell list.

Sleet Storm wrote:

Katz wrote:

How is Sylvan broken?

Because Full Arcane Casting, Share Spells and an Animal Companion are a Paradigm Shift on a Class that is already one of the most powerfull classes out there.

sorcerers aren't really one of the most powerful classes...spontaneous casting is awesome, yeah, but they have a fairly limited spell list.

Are we going to start the Sorc/Wiz discussion now? Sorcerers are one of the most powerfull classes if you believe it or not.

Because Full Arcane Casting, Share Spells and an Animal Companion are a Paradigm Shift on a Class that is already one of the most powerfull classes out there.

As opposed to the druid who gets one of their normal level, rather than 3 lower, along with higher BAB, larger hit die, the ability to change into animals at will, and which also has full spellcasting?

I mean, I like spontaneous casting more than prepared as well, but really?

Are we going to start the Sorc/Wiz discussion now? Sorcerers are one of the most powerfull classes if you believe it or not.

I'm beginning to wonder if there are any classes you don't think are broken. If you have a bunch of different classes that you consider horribly broken or overpowered, how are you calling any of them horribly broken or overpowered?

Sleet Storm wrote:

Because Full Arcane Casting, Share Spells and an Animal Companion are a Paradigm Shift on a Class that is already one of the most powerfull classes out there.

As opposed to the druid who gets one of their normal level, rather than 3 lower, along with higher BAB, larger hit die, the ability to change into animals at will, and which also has full spellcasting?

I mean, I like spontaneous casting more than prepared as well, but really?

Sleet Storm wrote:

Are we going to start the Sorc/Wiz discussion now? Sorcerers are one of the most powerfull classes if you believe it or not.

I'm beginning to wonder if there are any classes you don't think are broken. If you have a bunch of different classes that you consider horribly broken or overpowered, how are you calling any of them horribly broken or overpowered?

I listed four and one archetype so its actually pretty easy to differenciate between them and the rest of the field.

I listed four and one archetype so its actually pretty easy to differenciate between them and the rest of the field.

Not so much when everything that gets considered is suddenly on your list as well.

-Synthesist is totally broken, and nothing even compares.
-Oh, that build is irrelevant, because that's a broken class too.
-Also, these other 3 things are broken as well.
-Yeah, sorcerers are OP in the first place, and they get more broken with this bloodline.

You started with one and now you're at 4-5 with archetypes/alternate features. So... no, it's not actually that easy to differentiate at this point.

Incidentally, you didn't even respond on how you think a sylvan sorcerer is obviously better than a druid that gets pretty much everything they do and more.

If you're not interested in talking about how classes compare to each other in order to decide what is or is not 'broken,' and would rather just keep your notions of them, that's fine. But at that point, this discussion is fairly pointless.

I mean what other class gets a permanent +8 to strength and +4Con that stacks with Belts and the likes?

Any class that has a wizard friend buffing em like wizards frequently do?

The synthesist class is not broken, it's usually built horribly wrong by most people.

The most glaring issues created do not involve the synthesist, but with combining manufactured weapons with natural attacks and pounce.

a large critter is often workable, but the huge are not always. Banish and other things stop it cold.

The dumping of stats will hurt, if you banish the skin the summoner is in there's issues there, likewise anything you can make at X level, something else can be made as powerful that's not quite as situational.

One thing I find funny, barbarian raging and spellsundering the summoned eidolon off.

While the damage he's doing is considerable,

Claw,Claw, +21/+21 1d6+25/1d6+19 x2

Claw,Claw, +21/+21 1d6+19/1d6+19 x2
Bite +20 1d8+13 x2

a lvl 11 paladin or barbarian stock can come up with those kinds of numbers... and a spell caster of many sorts, specifically if ready for this kind of baddie, can handle it handily as well.

at level 11 the Wizard will often have anti-magicfield. Dismissal can and will often work although I will admit the DC is not too hard to beat while fused if those numbers are accurate which I think it's will save is only +14 fused, so it's against a dc of at least 17, and more likely 20... If he's casting bestow blessing like it says, it only lasts a few minutes, so he's given a free round to the opponent, if he's casting haste, that's another free round..

Known 0level 6: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Acid Splash, Guidance, Message, Open/Close

Known 1st 5: Mage Armor, Shield, Grease, Rejuvenate Eidolon Lesser, Expeditious Retreat

Known 2nd 5: Barkskin, Evolution Surge Lesser, Haste, See Invisible, Cat’s Grace

Known 3rd 4: Evolution Surge, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Heroism

Known 4th 2: Evolution Surge Greater, Hold Monster

yes incredibly strong spells... the point of the spells for the combat monster is to make combat monstery... And these (while evo surge is nice) just don't break the bank.

A same level bard can greater invis, a same level paladin can magic circle against etc (great now the synthesist can't enter, as it's also summoned!) a ranger well water walk is about the only thing useful for this scenario (I'm on the lake and shooting you!) Sorcerers and Wizards and Clerics and Witches and any other full casting class can have many answers for this. Wizards can ennervate all day long, no save!

And that comes to a interesting point, because the eidolon will suffer the 1d4 negative levels and so will the host. the 1-3 free castings you'd get against this eidolon is enough to get rid of it. And to top it off, the poor sucker underneath (I'm assuming -8 levels) has gone to sub zero or nearly zero due to how hp and reduced con and the negative levels work!

It'd be very easy to make a barbarian, a paladin, another summoner, a wizard, a sorcerer, a fighter, a magus, a druid... that could all handle this thing easily.

Now doing more or same damage?

A barbarian, a paladin, a monk, a fighter, a rogue.

The same defenses?

That's going to require some splashing around but it'll feature a paladin for saves and or a monk.

Yeah the synthesist is a great package, but it's got a seriously large chink in it's armor.

namely this

He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected.

This also includes very elementary spells such as circle of protection XXX that prevents it from even entering said area. Damage reduction will nerf the heck out of it's damage as well where most things at that level can handle most DR if they are combat focused.

Big Lemon wrote:

The synthesist nearly gets 2d8 hit die per level thanks to Fused Link. He can get permanent bonuses to Str and Con by 8th levee that exceed l the Barbarian's rage, except they are not temporary and the drawbacks do not balance it.

He's dumped Con. If the eidolon ever goes down and he's taken any relevant amount of damage, he's already dead. He's dropping 66 real hp when the eidolon goes away with a con of only 7.

But that's only at risk of happening if the party faces something capable of banishing the eidolon, which is possible, but not for the majority of monsters in the bestiary. Barring that, he can just funnel hp into the eidolon until he would be dead anyway or until he has just enough to get out of there.

Artanthos wrote:

Sleet Storm wrote:

Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

Something I had built earlier today while testing sCoreForge:

** spoiler omitted **...

This is not a Monk though:).The Magus has its own issues. I could nitpick your build now and say that you can´t get Powerattack with 11STR ,that damage per hit is totally off(should be more like 1d4+15). But I wont. Instead I will admit that it´s a good build.Still not even close to the package the summoner gets.

Going to sleep the sleep of the righteous now...

It is what I had available. Did not want to spend 2 hours building a Monk at 2am.

My initial strength was 13. sCoreForge did not have Elemental Body I as an available buff so I used reduce person and manually adjusted. I missed the -2 str.

My damage breakdown is thus:

Given that both have sufficient AC to be hit only on a 20, how does the magus not compare to the synthesist. He has fewer HP and a lower will save, but will go first and is more versatile in other areas.

As a bonus, the magus can Pounce starting at 4th level a limited number of times per day.

Katz wrote:

Sleet Storm wrote:

Seranov wrote:

So, what, because it's not on the level of a Monk it's not acceptable? Let's face it, you have opinions on the balance of classes that seems intensely out of whack to me.

I can go find a Zen Archer that's soloing the Tarrasque, will that make you happy? You can do stupid things with any class.

No, the problem is that you can not prove that a class/archetype is not broken by matching it with "the other broken class".There is something in this game called the core assumption. And all this stuff is miles away from that.

What's the core assumption?

The CRB

There are CRB druid builds stronger than the synthesist. Are you going to exclude druids from consideration as well?

It is very easy to state anything is overpowered if you bar everything capable of matching or exceeding it from consideration.

I don't know what got into this thread but I removed a bunch of personal insults.

Another difficulty the Syntehsist Summoner seems to have is that he/she/it is going off the Summoner's base Saves, which will be inferior to the Eidolon's.

I don't know what got into this thread but I removed a bunch of personal insults.

Including some of mine I see. Sorry about that.

An invisible summoner (buffs don't break invisibility) ediolon combo is far more powerful than an ediolon alone. You can have a combat bunny with stats that compare and surpass that of any other class (IMO) and have one of the best buffers in the game acting at the same time.

Seranov wrote:

So, what, because it's not on the level of a Monk it's not acceptable? Let's face it, you have opinions on the balance of classes that seems intensely out of whack to me.

I can go find a Zen Archer that's soloing the Tarrasque, will that make you happy? You can do stupid things with any class.

No, the problem is that you can not prove that a class/archetype is not broken by matching it with "the other broken class".There is something in this game called the core assumption. And all this stuff is miles away from that.

Dude...if we are going by core assumptions in the CRB, then my FIGHTERS break that and as such, fighters are broken too. In fact I don't think there is a single class that won't be broken beyond belief compared to the core assumption when optimized by those who are good at it. Even monks can be made pretty much above what is considered core assumption. The issue is how much effort and system mastery one has to know to reach that and what the upper limit of silly is. Most games are not played with silly theorycrafted characters. Those that are have silly theorycrafted NPC and monsters to challenge said party. Most other games...even those with optimized cheese monkey players will have more reasonable characters and more closely aligned with the core assumptions.

I listed four and one archetype so its actually pretty easy to differenciate between them and the rest of the field.

So...4 class + 1 archetype means the summoner isn't OMG it's OP BS...it means it's top middle of the pack. Which is very much in the real of balanced.

No, I had meant balanced in a different way. I was on my tablet, so didn't feel like typing a ton, but here's what I meant. Percentages are made up.

50% of all evolution points can go towards combat enhancing evolutions. Examples include more natural attacks, higher Strength / Constitution / Dex, pounce, size increases,

25% of all evolution points can go to movement and senses based evolutions, like flight, mount, the ones that increase speed, darkvision, etc

25% of all evolution points can go towards others.

The easy way - bann the synetesist - is it broken. Yes.

The hard way - nerf it.
1) changing to size large - WTF should it give such a huge bonus? Change size large to the same bonus as enlarge person.

2) Natural Armor. That's just crazy high. He even have barkskin on his list... Needs to be lower - by how much? Don't know. I'm playing with a syntesist - we haven't bought him ny AC items - he might have a ring of pro +2 at lvl 14 - no sense selling it. His touch Ac is bad - but normal AC; people needs a natural 20 to hit him. Im walking around in a +5 full plate with having spend 50% or more of the parties loot, having bought every Ac improving item i coul get my hands on - And i'm still behind Does that seem fair?

3) Natural attack. Every thing is freaking primary attacks these day.
Make all but the first secondary.

4) Spell - why should the syntesist get so many spells at an earlierfe level? Sometimes before the wizard. That just wrong.

There is no need to ban the synthesist, the problem is either with the summoner class (it's fine honestly) or with how natural attacks interact.

The spells the summoner has available is a reasonable list and not crazy, they are on a slow progression and if they happen to get haste at lvl 4 (one prior to the wizard) it's not really a super huge deal. That's one of two spells the know...

Mostly the wizard is ahead and has way more versatility and in general has as many spells per day at a base (with specialization)

You mention the natural armor issue, the natural armor is quite reasonable and just thinking about the ac a normal synthesist can have (tops at lvl 14) it's not a natural 20 situation like you say considering CR 12 things are usually operating on either a +9 touchish area, or dealing with at least a +22 to hit.

if I'm counting right at lvl 14 he could have +18natural armor, +4-7 from dex, however much from bracers of armor or mage armor (lets say +6) the ring of defelection you said +2, shield ac +2, and barkskin +5. so we're looking at ac 10+18+7+6+2+2+5. Ac = 50. If he's gone huge he gets a net increase of 1 ac out of it. Then again that'll eat up 10 of the 19-25 evolutions they might have.

Now what's available at lvl 14 for your guy? a Basic fighter can get +5 tower shield, +5 full plate, +3-4 deflection +6 dex.

10+14+9+4+6. 41 ac... dodge, shield focus, greater shield focus, weapon expertise... now your ac is 49. Seems like you're right there with him AC wise. forgot to include the same casting of barkskin on you, so that's 54ac...

Just looking at the wealth (and since he's in your party he can cast barkskin on you as well)

assumed wealth 185k.

+5 mithral full plate. 35.5k (14ac)
+5 tower shield roughly 26k (9ac)
+6 dex/con belt 64k (6 dex bonus)
+5 ring of pro 50k (5)
casted barksin (5)
Dodge, expertise, greater shield focus (8)
57 ac.

of course you don't have much in the way of + whatever weapons, but that gets you to exceed his ac. And you've got plenty of feats left over for doing cool things with your crits.

1) Let's look at the Build presented.
AC 43 - 5 from Monk - lets remove those - 38.

Basic fighter can get +5 tower shield, +5 full plate, +3-4 deflection +6 dex. - NO.
Tower shield - you just nerfed damage output, so I don't use that either. +6 dex in a fullplate? No. +1 or +3 with a mithral fullplate - but then 15 point buy - so I don't have 16 to put into dex...
Don't have my sheet with me - but around 32 with a barkskin.

It could be higher with a +5 ring of pro og an jingasa of fortunate soldier, a mithralfull plate and a +6 dex item - I could get +4...

Syntesist - could take extra evolution points...
And I'm lvl 14 he's ll!

Your exsample - really have to try, spend feats, items - syntesist cast 2 spells, use mondane items and a +2 ring of pro. An still have a monster AC. How can you not see that is unbalanced?

1)

Your exsample - really have to try, spend feats, items - syntesist cast 2 spells, use mondane items and a +2 ring of pro. An still have a monster AC. How can you not see that is unbalanced?

And it still came out with about the same AC while dealing almost 20% less damage than the magus build I posted.

And then some of the snearios that "proves Syntesitist are weak/balanced"

Surprised at night: At lvl 4 - use 1 round to get the eidolon summoen via a spell. That can be hard - but the fighter doesn't have his fullplate - and he isn't getting it this fight...

Eidolon disappers because of HP loss. Now the syntesist is weak and exposed. He can still summon things, fly, turn inv. and what not... The fighter would just be unconsoius or dead...

Hahah,you guys are giving me the lulz

@Artanthos,Interzone and Seranov:

Since all you guys are so "experienced" and can build "broken" monks(isn´t that an oxymoron by the way?), here is a sample build

Synthesist

So show me. Build me a Monk,Fighter or Rouge that comes even close to that.

This is still Theorycrafting. I like to see if someone played a character in PFS from level 1. Those findings would be worth discussing. The rest of this thread is speculation.

Synthesists are banned in PFS. :3

Every Synthesist I've played with has ended up being kinda hard to hit, but more importantly, they rarely did the kinds of ridiculous damage I've heard people claim they can do.

It's one thing to look at a character sheet and say "lol that's overpowered" and another to actually play with that character so you can claim you know how it actually interacts with the game world.

Surprised at night: At lvl 4 - use 1 round to get the eidolon summoen via a spell. That can be hard - but the fighter doesn't have his fullplate - and he isn't getting it this fight...

Eh?

It takes a whole minute to perform the ritual to summon the Eidolon. That's 10 rounds, not one.

I think he means this spell, which has the obvious drawback of only being minute/level.

Funky Badger wrote:

Seen a fifth level monk/synthesist (1/4) with 29AC, 70+HP that could charge over all terrain doing a full attack sequence at the end, had 60ft darkvision, 50ft movement and evasion.

And could cast haste.

Pretty impressive.

Its a shame the mechanics of the archetype are so broken because the idea's really cool...

I would like to see the build. Curious what the attacks look like having spent the evolutions on additional movement, armor class, and having added in a 0 BAB level of monk. Without magic items he should be looking at the following attack sequence (assuming he spent 2 evolution points on strength):

claws(2) +6 (1d6+3/20/x2)
bite +6 (1d6+3/20/x2)

He's got a 3 BAB, can't have more than 4 attacks, and he can't have higher than a 17 strength without using magic (given build details I would be curious how he fit a 4th attack in without dropping strength down to 15). Only 1 set of claws can be on legs, the rest have to go on arms.

At this same level, a barbarian (dumping int and cha down to 7) could easily have (assuming 24 str while raging):

earthbreaker +12 (2d6+10/20/x3)

The barbarian is also getting his full attacks every round.....

I'm not counting feats. Both classes have the same number and will likely spend them in a similar fashion. The barbarian will spend less than the sythesist for an equivalent enchanted weapon.

If the synthesist is stopping to cast in combat, he's acting as a second tier sorcerer instead of a front line fighter.

Any character can permanently ignore difficult terrain for 2000 gold. It's called Feather Step Slippers

I misspoke - twas 40ft movement (when not hasted) not 50ft. Dragon Style (via Master of Many styles) allows charging across all terrain, eidolon has pounce = full attacks every round. Wasn't putting out an enourmous amount of damage, but was pretty much untouchable.

The strong thing about the synthesist is it can act as a secondary spellcaster (about the only thing summoners are useful for normally) and a front-line tank *at the same time*.

As I said before its a shame the archetype is so broken, because there are so many cool things you could do with it...

...I suspect any fix would make it so complimacated as to be unplayable.

:-(

I misspoke - twas 40ft movement (when not hasted) not 50ft. Dragon Style (via Master of Many styles) allows charging across all terrain, eidolon has pounce = full attacks every round. Wasn't putting out an enourmous amount of damage, but was pretty much untouchable.

The strong thing about the synthesist is it can act as a secondary spellcaster (about the only thing summoners are useful for normally) and a front-line tank *at the same time*.

This matches my experience playing a synthesist. I was never more than mid-range dpr but was capable of tanking and acting as a secondary spellcaster.

I filled approximately the same role as a paladin, using a different toolbox.

There's nothing broken about the synthesist, and the reason it's banned in PFS is more for flavor than anything else. Look at what else got banned at the same time, Vivisectionist, Grave walker, and several "death" oriented archetypes.

You're saying he's broken because he's strong with his defenses, ok? You're choosing not to be as strong defensively (or stronger) and you're deciding to do more damage.

What class are you, perhaps we can help you optimize what you're playing, rather than trying to swing a nerf bat at your friend.