Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

A whip, Whirlwind Attack and Greater Trip.


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 56 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Is there anything stopping a fighter from using WA and a whip to attack everything within reach with a trip attack? If not, and assuming he has Combat Reflexes and a crazy high Dex, could he not then hit use the AoO from the Greater Whip feat to hit each if those creature with another special attack, such as disarm? Also, when does the AoO counter reset? If I have seven AoO per round, and use all seven during my action, am I SOL until the beginning if my next turn?

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Based on my reading of the feats in question... Nothing really stopping you from doing that no...

And yes AoO don't reset until the start of your next turn.


I believe you could do a whirlwind trip, but since the whip doesn't actually threaten an area, you would not be able to capitalize on all the AoO from tripping enemies. I have always played that your attacks of opportunity reset at the beginning of your turn, but I don't know of anywhere in the rules it states the specific moment they reset.


Joex The Pale wrote:
Is there anything stopping a fighter from using WA and a whip to attack everything within reach with a trip attack? If not, and assuming he has Combat Reflexes and a crazy high Dex, could he not then hit use the AoO from the Greater Whip feat to hit each if those creature with another special attack, such as disarm? Also, when does the AoO counter reset? If I have seven AoO per round, and use all seven during my action, am I SOL until the beginning if my next turn?

Yes to all, since you've taken the feat that lets you threaten squares with the whip and assuming that those that you've tripped are in those threatened squares (10' threat vs 15' reach).

Your AOOs reset at the start of your turn.

Trip, disarm, and sunder can be used whenever you could make an attack with the weapon.. including AOOs with that weapon.

-James


I agree with James Maissen's assessment of the situation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You can't make AoOs with a whip, they don't threaten an area, even with whip mastery.


Martiln wrote:
You can't make AoOs with a whip, they don't threaten an area, even with whip mastery.

Actually you can, with Improved Whip Mastery: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Corodix wrote:
Martiln wrote:
You can't make AoOs with a whip, they don't threaten an area, even with whip mastery.
Actually you can, with Improved Whip Mastery: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat

I forgot about improved whip mastery. Still it limits you to only threatening enemies 5-10 feet away...unless you're large.


Combat Patrol would allow me to threaten out to the limit of my reach with a whip, at 20th level. Combine that with an Enlargement spell to make me Large and I would threaten out to the full 25' of my new reach without moving. Correct? (Never did get a final answer on that Large whip reach question in the other thread, I believe...)


Throw Lunge in there too, for good measure.


Joex The Pale wrote:
Combat Patrol would allow me to threaten out to the limit of my reach with a whip, at 20th level. Combine that with an Enlargement spell to make me Large and I would threaten out to the full 25' of my new reach without moving. Correct? (Never did get a final answer on that Large whip reach question in the other thread, I believe...)

You are combining a lot of things there, better to ask them in smaller bites.

A non-whip wielder enlarged using combat patrol with a 20BAB.. would have their reach doubled (enlarged) and then increased (combat patrol).

They would not be able to make direct attacks beyond that which an enlarged wielder could, but they could move to make them via combat patrol.

Now the feat letting a character threaten with a whip seems no different from a weapon that can normally attack adjacent and 10' distant.

Enlarged this should double to 5-20' then increased by combat patrol.

Lastly the question of the enlarged whip- I would have it double to 30' rather than be 25' as I think the former is more in the spirit of the rules than the later, for whatever that is worth.

Hope this helps,

James


I second the lunge comment.


Mechanical Pear wrote:
I second the lunge comment.

Lunge is only on your turn.. combat patrol is mostly NOT on your turn. Won't work well together unless someone's readied action goes off when you start your combat patrol (full round action) but before your end your turn (giving up any other free, swift, etc actions).

-James


james maissen wrote:

Now the feat letting a character threaten with a whip seems no different from a weapon that can normally attack adjacent and 10' distant.

Enlarged this should double to 5-20' then increased by combat patrol.

The difference is in the precise wording of the feat. Enlarged, your natural reach plus 5' would be 15'.

Improved Whip Mastery wrote:
While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet.


I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.


....I would disagree. But that's just me. Whirlwind trip everyone around you, then AoO all those that fall (within your threatened area). Power-wise, at least, it's strong, but not broken, so I'd allow it.


Gnomezrule wrote:
I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.

Mechanically, Trip merely replaces the melee attack involved. You're not "stopping" to trip anyone no more than you are "stopping" to attack an individual target. To trip using whirlwind attack, you're merely swinging your weapon towards someone's legs to sweep them out from under them. Sweep one d00d and just keep on going to the next.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Gnomezrule wrote:
I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.

So what do you think of Rime Spell?

Also, do you know how many feats what the OP is talking about would require?

EWP: Whip
Weapon Focus (Whip)
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Combat Reflexes
and probably Weapon Finesse to have the high Dex for Combat Reflexes

13 feats. A fighter spending every feat on this couldn't do it before level 11, when the wizards are tossing around 6th-level spells.

Pathfinder is brutal to martials attempting to do anything more interesting than "I poke him with my pointed stick for damage", and you would discard a rare interesting (but obscenely expensive) option out of hand because it might let the player actually have fun? Man I can't wait to play in your games sounds like a real blast let me roll up my autopilot DPR full-attacker assuming that's boring enough to earn your blessing.


Fredrik wrote:
james maissen wrote:

Now the feat letting a character threaten with a whip seems no different from a weapon that can normally attack adjacent and 10' distant.

Enlarged this should double to 5-20' then increased by combat patrol.

The difference is in the precise wording of the feat. Enlarged, your natural reach plus 5' would be 15'.

Improved Whip Mastery wrote:
While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet.

Where would the wording of natural reach precisely be?

I see:

Quote:
As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus.

And if he threatens squares out to 20feet, you'd add from that...

-James


james maissen wrote:
Where would the wording of natural reach precisely be?

Page 278 of the CRB. "A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet."


Fredrik wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Where would the wording of natural reach precisely be?
Page 278 of the CRB. "A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet."

Yes, and?

If that creature is wielding a long spear then the threatened area is not 10 feet around him...

-James


So an enlarged creature with a whip has a natural reach of 10', and the Improved Whip Mastery feat grants a threatened area of natural reach plus 5', therefore his threatened area is 15'. Not 20'. If you want to make a house rule for your home game, then great, but the text is clear.

ETA: I'm not being such a stickler for the literal wording just for the heck of it. This looks to me like a really interesting option, that could actually be PFS-legal. I would be interested in possibly making a PFS character that does this -- and for that, I have to take into account how it works without fudge.


Fredrik wrote:
the Improved Whip Mastery feat grants a threatened area of natural reach plus 5'

That was my question! When you quoted the core rulebook, I figured that you had things confused. It seems I missed the wording on the Improved Whip Mastery feat (not sure why as you quoted it).

Okay so his threatened area is within 15' from him, and then combat patrol takes that and would add (by 20BAB) 20' to that, so he could move to take AOOs within 35' of his squares and be able to attack out to a distance of 30feet.

Sorry I somehow missed where you were going with things.

-James


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, to summarize:

prd wrote:
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Source

A large creature has a natural reach of 10' (can attack targets 5'-10' away) and with a normal reach weapon, this range goes to 15-20'. A Whip effectively triples your natural reach and also includes the intermediate range. So, by reach rules, a Large creature with a whip can attack 5-30' away.

prd wrote:
Improved Whip Mastery: While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet...

The natural reach of a Large creature is 10'. His reach with a whip when attacking is up to 30'. His threat range with IWM is 15'.

Now with Combat Patrol, you increase your Threat Range but it doesn't increase your available reach. Say you get +20' of threat. The Large creature with a whip normally threatens 15' and has a reach of 30'. With Combat Patrol, he has a threat radius of 35' and a reach of 30'. If someone 35' away provokes an AoO, he can move 5' to get into the 30' whip reach and take the AoO provided he has enough movement left for it.

If you used Lunge, then your reach on your whip will go to 35' but your threat range is still 15'. So you could whirlwind strike everyone within 35' to trip them, but only those within 15' of you will trigger AoO when they fall. Furthermore, any within 10' of you will additionally trigger Vicious Stomp (provided you have sufficient AoO through Combat Reflexes).


Kazaan wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:
I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.
Mechanically, Trip merely replaces the melee attack involved. You're not "stopping" to trip anyone no more than you are "stopping" to attack an individual target. To trip using whirlwind attack, you're merely swinging your weapon towards someone's legs to sweep them out from under them. Sweep one d00d and just keep on going to the next.

Maybe its a failure of my imagination. But I envision whirlwind attack as either twirling or snaping the whip out is rapid succession hitting everything in the threated area. When I envision a trip attempt I see someone wrapping the whip around a single target and pulling the person off balance. Hence at least as I am picturing it I would not allow it. I guess the enemies could fumble all over each other and fall.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gnomezrule wrote:


Maybe its a failure of my imagination. But I envision whirlwind attack as either twirling or snaping the whip out is rapid succession hitting everything in the threated area. When I envision a trip attempt I see someone wrapping the whip around a single target and pulling the person off balance. Hence at least as I am picturing it I would not allow it. I guess the enemies could fumble all over each other and fall.

Might as well house rule a lot of whirlwind attacks as not viable. The whip in the first place would need to recover and lash out again, any stabbing weapon, polearms in general, etc.

Likewise you can force (as another houserule) polearm users to declare facing as there's no reasonable way to have them spinning around in a narrow corridor to threaten both in front of them and behind..

Sorry, accept it. But if you don't want to, enjoy your game.. but it doesn't have that much place in a rules' discussion. The 'I would not allow it' as a house rule doesn't have much of a purpose here. You might as well not allow a character to take all their iterative attacks before another can act (to make the interchange 'more reasonable') etc.

In other words, this is way into house rules in that you are wanting your picture to dictate the rules, rather than the converse.

-James


I just don't see how someone could possibly trip two different people in just six seconds. Also I cast Dazing Fireball followed by Quickened Fireball.


Roberta Yang wrote:
I just don't see how someone could possibly trip two different people in just six seconds. Also I cast Dazing Fireball followed by Quickened Fireball.

Then your problem is with the core rules on trip combat maneuvers and has nothing to do with Whirlwind.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:


Maybe its a failure of my imagination. But I envision whirlwind attack as either twirling or snaping the whip out is rapid succession hitting everything in the threated area. When I envision a trip attempt I see someone wrapping the whip around a single target and pulling the person off balance. Hence at least as I am picturing it I would not allow it. I guess the enemies could fumble all over each other and fall.

Might as well house rule a lot of whirlwind attacks as not viable. The whip in the first place would need to recover and lash out again, any stabbing weapon, polearms in general, etc.

Likewise you can force (as another houserule) polearm users to declare facing as there's no reasonable way to have them spinning around in a narrow corridor to threaten both in front of them and behind..

Sorry, accept it. But if you don't want to, enjoy your game.. but it doesn't have that much place in a rules' discussion. The 'I would not allow it' as a house rule doesn't have much of a purpose here. You might as well not allow a character to take all their iterative attacks before another can act (to make the interchange 'more reasonable') etc.

In other words, this is way into house rules in that you are wanting your picture to dictate the rules, rather than the converse.

-James

Are you suggesting that at certain times certain attacks aren't viable. Cause I have played plenty of cames where narrow corradors or environment hindered action. I was not disallowing any whirlwind attacks I was simply suggesting that using it to trip everyone in a 15 foot radius might streach the laws of physics. I get that it is a fantasy game but part of strategy, creativity and many of the reasons we play these games involes overcomeing limitations, engaging clever fixes to situation and so on. So can someone use whirlwind attack with a whip sure. Its just the nature of the weapon. As for pole arms using whirlwind attack makes perfect sense, even tripping with it. Its just apples and oranges.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Ha ha ha... physics. There's your problem.


Gnomezrule wrote:
I was not disallowing any whirlwind attacks I was simply suggesting that using it to trip everyone in a 15 foot radius might streach the laws of physics.
Gnomezrule wrote:


I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does

Umm.. yes you were.

Besides what is the difference between whirlwinding making 4 attacks, and full attacking making 4 attacks for your 6 second argument? Nothing.

Again this is that your wanting your picture to dictate the rules rather than the converse. That's not a rules' argument, but a homebrew defense. You're still in the wrong forum.

You know the rules allow it, but don't like it because it doesn't fit your vision. Them's the breaks. Doubt a turn based combat system really fits ANYONE's vision, but that's the game we play.

We accept Gargantuan and Colossal fire breathing dragons being able to attack a tiny creature with claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, AND tail in six seconds.. but your laws of physics have problems with the trip maneuver doing too much more than once per 6 seconds?

I even have problems with your houserules. Why don't we take it to the proper forum and debate that there?

-James


The real problem with Pathfinder is that it gives fighters too many options and lets them get away with too many unrealistic things.


Unrealistic things? As in, larger than life? Fantastic, even? :p


Roberta Yang wrote:
The real problem with Pathfinder is that it gives fighters too many options and lets them get away with too many unrealistic things.

Roberta, I have yet to read a post of yours that I didn't like. It is a fine art to convey through text alone.


Kazaan wrote:
So, to summarize:

Nice summary! I wouldn't bother with something like Vicious Stomp, since the attack must be an unarmed strike. Assuming that we're still talking about with Whirlwind Attack, by the time you have all the other feats (including Combat Patrol), you'd be at least level 12, right? It has been a very long time since I played that high, but I think it would be more important to make sure you get the AoOs and can use them the way you want. I'm thinking Pin Down, some way to increase what size you're considered to be for combat maneuvers, and maybe Improved Precise Shot.

I know that last one sounds kind of crazy, so I made a new thread for it. My reasoning is that if it works for reach weapons, then you could eliminate that pesky soft cover with six levels as an archery ranger and no need to meet the pre-reqs. (Or you could just stay a fighter and meet the pre-reqs.)

ETA: Tandem Trip might be nice!


Fredrik wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
So, to summarize:
Nice summary! I wouldn't bother with something like Vicious Stomp, since the attack must be an unarmed strike. ...

Depends on how you're building. If you use Lunge, your unarmed strike has 15' reach and for weapons other than whips, reach = threat. So if you did Lunge + Whirlwind Attack as a trip and had Stomp, you could trip everyone within 35' and any who fell within 15' could take AoO from your whip and another AoO from your Unarmed Strike.


Is everyone reading a different version of Whirlwind Attack than I am? It explicitly says in the feat:

Whirlwind Attack wrote:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

So no, your Greater Trip is not active when you are Whirlwind Attacking.

In fact, your Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip are also deactivated, and if you have them so are Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, and Improved Whip Mastery.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Is everyone reading a different version of Whirlwind Attack than I am? .

No, we're all just reading it different from you. We don't impose non proficiency penalties on the attacks, etc

-James


james maissen wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Is everyone reading a different version of Whirlwind Attack than I am? .

No, we're all just reading it different from you. We don't impose non proficiency penalties on the attacks, etc

-James

Proficiency doesn't give a bonus, it removes a penalty. So EWP is unaffected. Weapon Focus gives a bonus, so it is deactivated during a Whirlwind Attack.


And so would weapon training weapon spec. If magic weapon special abilities are considered abilities so no +5 flaming or any of that. Better hope the wizard doesn't ready dominate for when you whirlwind cuz your Iron Will is gone. Heck toughness is a bonus so there goes you HD in HP. That might knock you out. See how ridiculous this gets. I'm fairly certain it's talking about bonus attacks not any kind of bonus.


You're going to have to explain to me how Weapon Finesse is providing you with bonus attacks.


Talonhawke wrote:
I'm fairly certain it's talking about bonus attacks not any kind of bonus.

I considered that, but I checked and as far as I can tell there is no such thing in Pathfinder as a "bonus attack." Therefore, I think it makes more sense to read it as "you also forfeit any bonus... granted by other feats." Losing Iron Will wouldn't hurt you unless you're making will saves during your attack, and you wouldn't lose Toughness because it's not a bonus.

Roberta Yang wrote:
You're going to have to explain to me how Weapon Finesse is providing you with bonus attacks.

Nothing provides you with "bonus attacks", as far as I can tell. Bonuses are numbers that you add to other numbers, like Weapon Focus.


If it meant what you're reading it as, it would say bonuses. Otherwise it has an agreement error.

Also that would be stupid.


Roberta Yang wrote:

If it meant what you're reading it as, it would say bonuses. Otherwise it has an agreement error.

Also that would be stupid.

Where's the agreement error in "you also forfeit any bonus granted by other feats"?

Anyway, regardless of which way you read it, it's clear that you do not get to use Combat Reflexes when making a Whirlwind Attack.


Medusa's Wrath calls the extra attacks it gives Bonus attacks. For starters


Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer) Nov 13, 2008 wrote:
I will get this clarified. Whirlwind will now state that you lose any additional attacks, but you should be able to use other feats, such as Weapon Finesse.

Note: That post is from Prerelease.

Whirlwind Attack didn't actually get changed from the text quoted further up in that thread.

What we can take this to mean:

At the time of posting, JB's intent was that Whirlwind doesn't remove actual bonuses (like weapon finesse), just extra attacks.

Since it didn't change, he might have changed his mind as to the intent of the feat.

OR, he could have decided that the feat works as written, since the majority of the posters read the feat that way (only the OP seemed to think it removed actual bonuses).

Since it makes more sense to read it that way, and that's what the intent was when JB posted, I think the 2nd interpretation is more valid. Whirlwind Attack does not remove bonuses, you just don't get extra attacks from high BAB, haste, TWF, etc.


Thanks for the clarification, Grick, looks like I was reading it wrong. Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesses and such should still work.

Combat Reflexes, however, is a feat that grants you extra attacks, so it would still not be active.


The chart text for Hellcat stealth uses the term bonus attacks.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
RumpinRufus wrote:

Thanks for the clarification, Grick, looks like I was reading it wrong. Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesses and such should still work.

Combat Reflexes, however, is a feat that grants you extra attacks, so it would still not be active.

If you're going with intent, why not use the whole intent?

The extra attacks are because (inexplicably) Whirlwind Attack uses a full-attack action, and normally you get extra attacks when using a full-attack action, so they wanted to specify you only get the attacks from Whirlwind, not your normal attacks from a full-attack.

The intent is you're giving up your regular attacks. "you can give up your regular attacks..." Those regular attacks are from BAB, haste, TWF, etc. The attacks you would normally get from a full-attack.

That text wouldn't be needed if Whirlwind attack said "As a full-round action..." instead of "When you use the full-attack action..."

Allowing someone to make one AoO during a whirlwind trip but not more (since they're granted by a feat) doesn't really make much sense.


Why would Greater Trip not be active? It doesn't grant you any attacks.

1 to 50 of 56 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / A whip, Whirlwind Attack and Greater Trip. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.