You think that's a lot? Try dealing with TWF Alchemists who throw bombs as their primary form of attacks. Level 20 you have 8 attacks (6 from TWF, one rapid shot, one haste), each dealing 10d6 + Int Mod + other damage, all hitting touch and dealing splash damage. That gets ridiculous.
Expensive. 120 gp a pop... unless you make your own cartridges with Alchemy. Then it's a mere 60 gp a turn.
Are you remembering misfires? With paper cartridges, you're at a 1-3 misfire range, and just one of those will stop your whole attack chain.
Pistoleros don't have misfire shooting one-handed firearms.
Well, at level 13 they don't. Their gun training states that they don't at that level. Which is why I think this build is built around level 13, since I personally would not risk that many misfires.
And yes, with a 19-20 range, then probability states that you will crit with 10 shots (that a critical range of 2 numbers out of 20, which is the same as 1 out of 10).
Also, there have been debates on whether double-barreled firearms give you one extra attack vs. double your attacks. So, if you get 5 attacks with a full action, is it 5+1 attacks, or 5+5 attacks?
It's still unclear and a lot of people have interpreted both ways.
Pistol, Double Barreled "This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."
So, no firing both barrels does not double the number of actions.
"Signature Deed (+3d6 to each shot without spending grit)"
What deed are you using as your Signature Deed?
"Basic 3 attacks: +22/+17/+12 (1d8+3d6+11 damage)"
Where does your initial +11 damage come from? I see +1 for the magic weapon, and +DEX. Do you have a DEX of 30?
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Dexterity calculations:
18
+2 racial modifier
+1 4th level
+1 8th level
+1 12th level
+6 belt
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29 DEX
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I, personally, have always interpreted the double barrelled guns to effectively double your number of attacks, except that in my games each pair of shots must be aimed at the same target.
I've never heard the "+1" interpretation before, but for game balance it makes sense. Anyone have a rules basis for this line of thinking?
Well I better go read pistolero.
I don't see *anything* in here that changes the number of actions the character has. You fire both barrels with one action - you get one attack roll. Roll damage for both barrels.
Thanks for answering my other questions. I'd accidentally neglected to include the Pistelero abilities in my search!
I semi-understand the argument about double-barreled pistols now and the word "action", but it's still not clear. Here's how the double-barreled stuff is worded:
"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot." (Note: Perfect Tommy, this is why you don't just do one attack roll and roll damage for each)
So using "action" literally, this would allow you to shoot both barrels at one target (at the -4), or shoot the second barrel in the next turn as your standard action? Is that what it's supposed to mean when it says "as a separate action"? Why in the world would anyone choose to use that wording as opposed to just specifying you can fire the second barrel before having to reload or something more clear? Also, since you reload for free, why would you ever need to "save" that second barrel?
If you're being literal, that same "action" is giving you all your attacks from your combination of BAB, rapid fire, and haste, right? If you were holding your second barrel for the next turn, would you get all your BAB, rapid fire, and hasted attacks there?
I think my gaming group will be happier if we take it literally and just use the second-barrel as one additional attack, but I hope we can all agree it's not clear.
I would read the double barrel benefits similar to Manyshot, the only other ranged combat ability that launches two missiles with a single act. So, one attack action, one attack roll, precision and critical damage are only calculated once, damage dice and static bonuses are doubled.
I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o
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I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o
"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
Design Manager
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As for the question of misfires at lower levels, please correct me if I am wrong: You roll each attack separately, one after another. The would prevent me from rolling too many misfires in a single attack.
Just as a note though, when firing both barrels of a double-barreled pistol together, you make that decision at the time you take the attack, since you're firing them with a single action. That means if you misfire with the first barrel, you still have to make the second shot. You could single barrel fire for the rest of your iteratives, but you can't break up your paired shots. That means you could very well blow your gun up if you had two poor rolls in a row, and you have to make that second roll once you've declared that you're firing both barrels as a single action.
I've also heard it argued fairly successfully that the -4 penalty for firing both barrels is cumulative, because it says "If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot." and the Core Rulebook states that "Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another."
So an attack routine from an 11th level gunslinger who fired both barrels on all three shots would have penalties of -4/-8/-12. I don't run it that way, but there's a case for it.
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The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.
That is not the case. Power Attack specifically denotes that it is a single penalty applied to all attacks, essentially a "mode" that you activate before an attack. The penalty for firing both barrels simultaneously shares none of the same verbage, and is listed only as a penalty to each shot. Penalties, as noted in the CRB, usually stack.
I'm not putting my own opinion in there one way or the other, but Power Attack has nothing in common with the Double-Barrel penalty.
I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
Isn't that what I said?
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Design Manager
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Isn't that what I said?I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
That text means that you can use Deadly Aim since the attack is not considered a touch attack.
That text means that you can use Deadly Aim since the attack is not considered a touch attack.Isn't that what I said?I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
Ohh, silly me.
The group protested against my NPC being to hit Touch AC with Deadly Aim.Good to know I didn't screw up after all :)
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Design Manager
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Ohh, silly me.
The group protested against my NPC being to hit Touch AC with Deadly Aim.
Good to know I didn't screw up after all :)
Yep, Guns get a specific exemption allowing them to use Deadly Aim even when targeting Touch AC. You were right, they were wrong, savor it but don't get obnoxious with it, people hate that :)
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This is my first gunslinger, and I do have to agree with you about the damage output. I am only level 6 right now but I have noticed that I can keep up with most Barbs and out damage (single target) the rest of them.
I have been playing the Double Barreled Pistol "special" as two attacks on a standard action only, if I get a full round action I do not use the "both barrels" at the same time function. GM's that I have played with agree with me on the way that it functions.
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The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.That is not the case. Power Attack specifically denotes that it is a single penalty applied to all attacks, essentially a "mode" that you activate before an attack. The penalty for firing both barrels simultaneously shares none of the same verbage, and is listed only as a penalty to each shot. Penalties, as noted in the CRB, usually stack.
I'm not putting my own opinion in there one way or the other, but Power Attack has nothing in common with the Double-Barrel penalty.
Firing two barrels is also a mode. Nothing in the rules suggest they'd by cumulative and logic clearly argues against it.
While penalties stack, there are not penalties here, only one penalty - from shooting double-barreled.
The idea you're putting forth is clearly wrong, and I'm shooting it down.
Since you were playing devil's advocate, you should be thankful :)
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Design Manager
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The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.That is not the case. Power Attack specifically denotes that it is a single penalty applied to all attacks, essentially a "mode" that you activate before an attack. The penalty for firing both barrels simultaneously shares none of the same verbage, and is listed only as a penalty to each shot. Penalties, as noted in the CRB, usually stack.
I'm not putting my own opinion in there one way or the other, but Power Attack has nothing in common with the Double-Barrel penalty.Firing two barrels is also a mode. Nothing in the rules suggest they'd by cumulative and logic clearly argues against it.
While penalties stack, there are not penalties here, only one penalty - from shooting double-barreled.
The idea you're putting forth is clearly wrong, and I'm shooting it down.
Since you were playing devil's advocate, you should be thankful :)
Just making sure the subject is fully explored :)
This may sound dumb, but uh...never start any fight loaded with paper cartridges. Load normal ammo for your first shots per barrel, everytime.
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RAW according to this post, the DBL-BARREL pistol would work as described in the OP. As in, both barrels can fire with every attack, not just one extra attack on a full action.
So, I believe the OP was generally correct. Personally though, I'd think they'd have added that precision damage couldn't be added when firing a weapon that shoots multiple barrels at once.
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I think the "penalties stack" is referring to deadly aim stacking with twf stacking with double pistol, etc. the reference to "do not have a type" is alluding to the bonus types (like competence bonus) and how they dont stack, so it is clarifying that the penalties do. but I dont think this means that they would increase in anyway.
How are you reloading? You need a hand free to reload, but you have a pistol in each hand. If you are using a glove of storing and assuming that changing weapons between hands is a free action, you will need something like 30 free actions to constantly stow, load, load, retrieve, switch, stow, load, load, retrieve, fire, fire, fire, fire, repeat. Sane DM's may get twitchy about that.
He's only using 1 pistol. The pistol has two barrels.
I am also of the mind that you can shoot both barrels each time you fire. The rules say that it takes X type of action (full, move, swift, free) to reload each barrel. If reloading is a free action, you can reload each barrel every time you fire.
EDIT: A Bandoleer of Abundant Ammuntion will solve all your cost concerns also. Keep standard rounds in your gun between fights, then use the Abundant Ammo during the fight.
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Design Manager
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How are you reloading? You need a hand free to reload, but you have a pistol in each hand. If you are using a glove of storing and assuming that changing weapons between hands is a free action, you will need something like 30 free actions to constantly stow, load, load, retrieve, switch, stow, load, load, retrieve, fire, fire, fire, fire, repeat. Sane DM's may get twitchy about that.
When TWF you actually make all of your attacks with your main hand, then all of your attacks with your off-hand. So with a double-barrel pistol, rapid shot, a 20th level character, haste, a Glove of Storing and all the TWF fighting feats you max out at needing like 16 free actions per full attack routine (plus an additional 4 if you count reloading after completing your attack sequence), as opposed to 7 for an archer or 11 for a character doing the same routine with hand crossbows.
It's definitely a lot, but....Frankly, I think it's more of a problem with the TWF rules, but since this is like, the one and only TWF build that's legitimately OP... Whatchya gonna do?