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Gunslinger Damage Output Questions


Advice


Apologies in advance if this has been covered before. I did searches, but it's possible I missed an explanation of gunslinger damage output.

We've been playing for a while and my character is a Level 13 gunslinger. His single target damage output is out of this world, which makes me think I _have_ to be screwing something up. It just doesn't make any sense.

Here's the character set up (and this is probably typical of a L13 gunslinger, I think):

Pistolero
DEX 27 (+8 mod)
BAB +13
+1 Double-Barreled Pistol with the Distance mod (range inc 40')
Boots of Speed (Haste 10/rnds per day)

Feats and Class Benefits:
Clustered Shots
Critical Focus (+4 to confirm crits)
Deadly Aim (-4/+8)
Improved Critical (19-20)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload + Paper Cartridges (reload as a free)
Rapid Shot
Signature Deed (+3d6 to each shot without spending grit)
Gun Training (add DEX to damage rolls)

This might get lengthy, but I want to go step-by-step through the logic.

Basic 3 attacks: +22/+17/+12 (1d8+3d6+11 damage)
Add Deadly Aim: +18/+13/+8 (1d8+3d6+19 damage)
Add Point Blank Shot: +19/+14/+9 (1d8+3d6+20 damage)
Add Rapid Shot: +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+3d6+20 damage)
Add Haste: +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (1d8+3d6+20 damage)

So then I use the double-barreled option on the pistol which gives -4 to hit but you fire both barrels with one action. This doubles the number of attacks, right?

Add Double-Barrel: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4 and +14/+14/+14/+9/+4.

So if I am doing everything correctly (and I don't think I am), I get 10 attacks against touch AC while within 40', critting on 19-20 for x4 damage.

Each attack does 1d8+3d6+20. If I crit, that goes to 4d8+3d6+80 (because the precision 3d6 damage isn't multiplied).

An average hit does: 4.5+10.5+20=35 damage. An average crit does: 18+10.5+80=108.5 damage

Touch AC is pathetically easy to hit. With 10 attacks, 1 is probably going to crit. Let's say 7 attacks hit (with 1 crit). That's 318.5 damage.

I was slowing our game down so much with all these dice that I actually wrote a spreadsheet on my iPad to do all the dice rolls. Please tell me where I'm screwing up or tell me that other character are comparable when they are optimized.

Are we messing up reloading with rapid reload plus paper cartridges? Am I messing up the double-barreled rules?

Thank you in advance and I am sorry if I am missing something very basic.

Sczarni

Be sure to pick up those gloves that add 1d6 acid damage to every shot.


You think that's a lot? Try dealing with TWF Alchemists who throw bombs as their primary form of attacks. Level 20 you have 8 attacks (6 from TWF, one rapid shot, one haste), each dealing 10d6 + Int Mod + other damage, all hitting touch and dealing splash damage. That gets ridiculous.


Expensive. 120 gp a pop... unless you make your own cartridges with Alchemy. Then it's a mere 60 gp a turn.

Shadow Lodge

Are you remembering misfires? With paper cartridges, you're at a 1-3 misfire range, and just one of those will stop your whole attack chain.


ubiquitous42 wrote:
Are you remembering misfires? With paper cartridges, you're at a 1-3 misfire range, and just one of those will stop your whole attack chain.

Pistoleros don't have misfire shooting one-handed firearms.


Well, at level 13 they don't. Their gun training states that they don't at that level. Which is why I think this build is built around level 13, since I personally would not risk that many misfires.

And yes, with a 19-20 range, then probability states that you will crit with 10 shots (that a critical range of 2 numbers out of 20, which is the same as 1 out of 10).


Also, there have been debates on whether double-barreled firearms give you one extra attack vs. double your attacks. So, if you get 5 attacks with a full action, is it 5+1 attacks, or 5+5 attacks?

It's still unclear and a lot of people have interpreted both ways.


Pistol, Double Barreled "This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."

So, no firing both barrels does not double the number of actions.


"Signature Deed (+3d6 to each shot without spending grit)"

What deed are you using as your Signature Deed?


"Basic 3 attacks: +22/+17/+12 (1d8+3d6+11 damage)"

Where does your initial +11 damage come from? I see +1 for the magic weapon, and +DEX. Do you have a DEX of 30?

.

Dexterity calculations:

18
+2 racial modifier
+1 4th level
+1 8th level
+1 12th level
+6 belt
-------------------
29 DEX

Sczarni

@Blueluck: look up the Pistolero Gunslinger archetype and you shall understand all that you seek to.

Sczarni

I, personally, have always interpreted the double barrelled guns to effectively double your number of attacks, except that in my games each pair of shots must be aimed at the same target.

I've never heard the "+1" interpretation before, but for game balance it makes sense. Anyone have a rules basis for this line of thinking?


Well I better go read pistolero.

I don't see *anything* in here that changes the number of actions the character has. You fire both barrels with one action - you get one attack roll. Roll damage for both barrels.


Blueluck wrote:

"Basic 3 attacks: +22/+17/+12 (1d8+3d6+11 damage)"

Where does your initial +11 damage come from? I see +1 for the magic weapon, and +DEX. Do you have a DEX of 30?

Dex of 27 = +8

+1 Double-Barrel = +9
Pistol Training (Pistolero Level 13) - +2 damage (+1 at levels 9 and 13)

As for the other question:

Blueluck wrote:


"Signature Deed (+3d6 to each shot without spending grit)"

What deed are you using as your Signature Deed?

Up Close and Deadly.

As for the question of misfires at lower levels, please correct me if I am wrong: You roll each attack separately, one after another. The would prevent me from rolling too many misfires in a single attack.

In addition, at level 11 you get Expert Loading, which allows you to spend a grit to avoid keeping a broken gun from exploding. If you get a broken gun, use Quick Clear (as a standard or a move depending on the situation and the grit you have left), or suck it up and keep firing with the degraded stats (and spending more grit when you roll poorly).

I semi-understand the argument about double-barreled pistols now and the word "action", but it's still not clear. Here's how the double-barreled stuff is worded:

"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot." (Note: Perfect Tommy, this is why you don't just do one attack roll and roll damage for each)

So using "action" literally, this would allow you to shoot both barrels at one target (at the -4), or shoot the second barrel in the next turn as your standard action? Is that what it's supposed to mean when it says "as a separate action"? Why in the world would anyone choose to use that wording as opposed to just specifying you can fire the second barrel before having to reload or something more clear? Also, since you reload for free, why would you ever need to "save" that second barrel?

If you're being literal, that same "action" is giving you all your attacks from your combination of BAB, rapid fire, and haste, right? If you were holding your second barrel for the next turn, would you get all your BAB, rapid fire, and hasted attacks there?

I think my gaming group will be happier if we take it literally and just use the second-barrel as one additional attack, but I hope we can all agree it's not clear.


Thanks for answering my other questions. I'd accidentally neglected to include the Pistelero abilities in my search!

sandersn wrote:

I semi-understand the argument about double-barreled pistols now and the word "action", but it's still not clear. Here's how the double-barreled stuff is worded:

"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot." (Note: Perfect Tommy, this is why you don't just do one attack roll and roll damage for each)

So using "action" literally, this would allow you to shoot both barrels at one target (at the -4), or shoot the second barrel in the next turn as your standard action? Is that what it's supposed to mean when it says "as a separate action"? Why in the world would anyone choose to use that wording as opposed to just specifying you can fire the second barrel before having to reload or something more clear? Also, since you reload for free, why would you ever need to "save" that second barrel?

If you're being literal, that same "action" is giving you all your attacks from your combination of BAB, rapid fire, and haste, right? If you were holding your second barrel for the next turn, would you get all your BAB, rapid fire, and hasted attacks there?

I think my gaming group will be happier if we take it literally and just use the second-barrel as one additional attack, but I hope we can all agree it's not clear.

I would read the double barrel benefits similar to Manyshot, the only other ranged combat ability that launches two missiles with a single act. So, one attack action, one attack roll, precision and critical damage are only calculated once, damage dice and static bonuses are doubled.


imparting a –4 penalty on each shot

Bolded part implies to me a seperate attack roll on each barrel, unlike Many shot that states it is 2 arrows for one attack roll.

Double Crossbow:
Double Crossbow: This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you're proficient with it, or –8 if you're not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt. Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action

That is closer to Manyshot imo, as it says one attack roll, two bolts hits, and restricts crit and precision damage to one bolt.


I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o


1 person marked this as a favorite.
amir90 wrote:
I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o

"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
sandersn wrote:

As for the question of misfires at lower levels, please correct me if I am wrong: You roll each attack separately, one after another. The would prevent me from rolling too many misfires in a single attack.

Just as a note though, when firing both barrels of a double-barreled pistol together, you make that decision at the time you take the attack, since you're firing them with a single action. That means if you misfire with the first barrel, you still have to make the second shot. You could single barrel fire for the rest of your iteratives, but you can't break up your paired shots. That means you could very well blow your gun up if you had two poor rolls in a row, and you have to make that second roll once you've declared that you're firing both barrels as a single action.

I've also heard it argued fairly successfully that the -4 penalty for firing both barrels is cumulative, because it says "If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot." and the Core Rulebook states that "Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another."

So an attack routine from an 11th level gunslinger who fired both barrels on all three shots would have penalties of -4/-8/-12. I don't run it that way, but there's a case for it.

Cheliax

The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.

That is not the case. Power Attack specifically denotes that it is a single penalty applied to all attacks, essentially a "mode" that you activate before an attack. The penalty for firing both barrels simultaneously shares none of the same verbage, and is listed only as a penalty to each shot. Penalties, as noted in the CRB, usually stack.

I'm not putting my own opinion in there one way or the other, but Power Attack has nothing in common with the Double-Barrel penalty.


Blueluck wrote:
amir90 wrote:
I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o
"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."

Isn't that what I said?

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
amir90 wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
amir90 wrote:
I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o
"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
Isn't that what I said?

That text means that you can use Deadly Aim since the attack is not considered a touch attack.


Ssalarn wrote:
amir90 wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
amir90 wrote:
I thought you couldn't attack against touch AC with feats, when using firearms :o
"When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
Isn't that what I said?
That text means that you can use Deadly Aim since the attack is not considered a touch attack.

Ohh, silly me.

The group protested against my NPC being to hit Touch AC with Deadly Aim.
Good to know I didn't screw up after all :)

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
amir90 wrote:

Ohh, silly me.

The group protested against my NPC being to hit Touch AC with Deadly Aim.
Good to know I didn't screw up after all :)

Yep, Guns get a specific exemption allowing them to use Deadly Aim even when targeting Touch AC. You were right, they were wrong, savor it but don't get obnoxious with it, people hate that :)

Andoran

This is my first gunslinger, and I do have to agree with you about the damage output. I am only level 6 right now but I have noticed that I can keep up with most Barbs and out damage (single target) the rest of them.

I have been playing the Double Barreled Pistol "special" as two attacks on a standard action only, if I get a full round action I do not use the "both barrels" at the same time function. GM's that I have played with agree with me on the way that it functions.

Cheliax

Ssalarn wrote:
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.

That is not the case. Power Attack specifically denotes that it is a single penalty applied to all attacks, essentially a "mode" that you activate before an attack. The penalty for firing both barrels simultaneously shares none of the same verbage, and is listed only as a penalty to each shot. Penalties, as noted in the CRB, usually stack.

I'm not putting my own opinion in there one way or the other, but Power Attack has nothing in common with the Double-Barrel penalty.

Firing two barrels is also a mode. Nothing in the rules suggest they'd by cumulative and logic clearly argues against it.

While penalties stack, there are not penalties here, only one penalty - from shooting double-barreled.

The idea you're putting forth is clearly wrong, and I'm shooting it down.

Since you were playing devil's advocate, you should be thankful :)

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
The hit penalty for shooting two barrels would not get any higher on iterative attacks for the same reason that the penalty for Power Attack isn't doubled and tripled on iterative attacks.

That is not the case. Power Attack specifically denotes that it is a single penalty applied to all attacks, essentially a "mode" that you activate before an attack. The penalty for firing both barrels simultaneously shares none of the same verbage, and is listed only as a penalty to each shot. Penalties, as noted in the CRB, usually stack.

I'm not putting my own opinion in there one way or the other, but Power Attack has nothing in common with the Double-Barrel penalty.

Firing two barrels is also a mode. Nothing in the rules suggest they'd by cumulative and logic clearly argues against it.

While penalties stack, there are not penalties here, only one penalty - from shooting double-barreled.

The idea you're putting forth is clearly wrong, and I'm shooting it down.

Since you were playing devil's advocate, you should be thankful :)

Just making sure the subject is fully explored :)

Cheliax

This may sound dumb, but uh...never start any fight loaded with paper cartridges. Load normal ammo for your first shots per barrel, everytime.

Cheliax

RAW according to this post, the DBL-BARREL pistol would work as described in the OP. As in, both barrels can fire with every attack, not just one extra attack on a full action.

So, I believe the OP was generally correct. Personally though, I'd think they'd have added that precision damage couldn't be added when firing a weapon that shoots multiple barrels at once.

Andoran

I think the "penalties stack" is referring to deadly aim stacking with twf stacking with double pistol, etc. the reference to "do not have a type" is alluding to the bonus types (like competence bonus) and how they dont stack, so it is clarifying that the penalties do. but I dont think this means that they would increase in anyway.

Andoran

Lamontius wrote:


This may sound dumb, but uh...never start any fight loaded with paper cartridges. Load normal ammo for your first shots per barrel, everytime.

I dont think this is dumb at all!

I have suggested this in the past as well-- saves on money and lowers misfire chances


How are you reloading? You need a hand free to reload, but you have a pistol in each hand. If you are using a glove of storing and assuming that changing weapons between hands is a free action, you will need something like 30 free actions to constantly stow, load, load, retrieve, switch, stow, load, load, retrieve, fire, fire, fire, fire, repeat. Sane DM's may get twitchy about that.


Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
How are you reloading? You need a hand free to reload, but you have a pistol in each hand. If you are using a glove of storing and assuming that changing weapons between hands is a free action, you will need something like 30 free actions to constantly stow, load, load, retrieve, switch, stow, load, load, retrieve, fire, fire, fire, fire, repeat. Sane DM's may get twitchy about that.

He's only using 1 pistol. The pistol has two barrels.

I am also of the mind that you can shoot both barrels each time you fire. The rules say that it takes X type of action (full, move, swift, free) to reload each barrel. If reloading is a free action, you can reload each barrel every time you fire.

EDIT: A Bandoleer of Abundant Ammuntion will solve all your cost concerns also. Keep standard rounds in your gun between fights, then use the Abundant Ammo during the fight.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
How are you reloading? You need a hand free to reload, but you have a pistol in each hand. If you are using a glove of storing and assuming that changing weapons between hands is a free action, you will need something like 30 free actions to constantly stow, load, load, retrieve, switch, stow, load, load, retrieve, fire, fire, fire, fire, repeat. Sane DM's may get twitchy about that.

When TWF you actually make all of your attacks with your main hand, then all of your attacks with your off-hand. So with a double-barrel pistol, rapid shot, a 20th level character, haste, a Glove of Storing and all the TWF fighting feats you max out at needing like 16 free actions per full attack routine (plus an additional 4 if you count reloading after completing your attack sequence), as opposed to 7 for an archer or 11 for a character doing the same routine with hand crossbows.

It's definitely a lot, but....
Frankly, I think it's more of a problem with the TWF rules, but since this is like, the one and only TWF build that's legitimately OP... Whatchya gonna do?


Hopefully OP has a friend with wand of abundant ammunition


Got tired of reading the 6 zillion responses, however look at double crossbow, it has a more clear description of the double barrel. if you read both you can easily tell that double barrel pistol is simply a modified version of the crossbow the wording on both are extremely similar sept the crossbow goes into a few extra words showing that you add the base damage twice one for each shot. Though I have sean it argued the other way and for a while I used it the other way till I read both weapons side by side and am now pretty sure what the intended effect was even though the actual wording can be difficult to define clearly.

that said one way to slow down there shots per round is also by monitoring where there ammo is stored and track the action needed to retrieve the ammo between reloads. Sure reloading might be free but recovering a stowed item isn't. That said we also altered firearms to target flat footed AC as apposed to touch making it so they occasionally miss, he still ends up on the higher end of the damage scale but least he misses every so often now.

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