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I've searched for this and keep finding threads where people argue about what properties should or shouldn't be allowed on the amulet and it seems to boil down to what your GM will allow, but for Society play I'm sure there is some standardized list some where. Anyone know where to find it?
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What abilities would not be allowed on an Amulet of Mighty Fists?
As far as I can tell, you can add any Weapon Enhancement abilities (that are legal for normal weapons in PFS) that you want, and you also don't need to have the initial +1 in order to get there.
Some people don't like it or house-rule it away, but you can indeed have a Flaming Frost Shock Amulet of Mighty Fists for 36,000 GP.
Speed is the problematic one, of course (the general consensus seems to be that you can only benefit from Speed once per round for adding to the number of attacks you have, in total), but that's been a problem ever since people have been debating over whether dual-wielding two Speed weapons lets you make two extra attacks as opposed to one extra attack.
Otherwise, though, I don't actually know what Weapon Enhancements pose a problem for Amulets of Mighty Fists.
By the way, in answering your question, I came up with the weirdest idea - get a Spell Storing Amulet of Mighty Fists for 4000 GP. Put a useful spell inside it and if you need to activate it, just punch yourself and have it cast on you.
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There was a thread recently in which people were (seriously, as far as I could tell) arguing that you could put the Dancing or Throwing enchantments on your unarmed strikes, apparently allowing you to detach your limbs and send them off to fight people on their own. Because, hey, the rules didn't specifically say you couldn't, right? *sigh*
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Throwing:
Your amulet of mighty fists allows you to "air punch" with such awesomeness that you may make one full attack per combat with a range increment of 10'. You can regenerate this ability by walking to the square where your opponent was and spending a Move action going "F#+$ YEAH!" or something similarly self aggrandizing.
Throwing + Returning:
As above, but you can replenish the ability with a free action provided. You still need to do self-aggrandizement.
Dancing:
Your Kung Fu is so strong that you can create a ghost-fist that attacks at your base attack bonus for a full flurry for four rounds.
All of these are at least as sensible as creating a ball of fire out of bat guano and righteous indignation. They're simply talismans for kung fu powers out of video games.
I have fewer problems with this than with the Captain Andoran clones I see...
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Throwing:
Your amulet of mighty fists allows you to "air punch" with such awesomeness that you may make one full attack per combat with a range increment of 10'. You can regenerate this ability by walking to the square where your opponent was and spending a Move action going "F&%# YEAH!" or something similarly self aggrandizing.
Throwing + Returning:
As above, but you can replenish the ability with a free action provided. You still need to do self-aggrandizement.
Dancing:
Your Kung Fu is so strong that you can create a ghost-fist that attacks at your base attack bonus for a full flurry for four rounds.
All of these are at least as sensible as creating a ball of fire out of bat guano and righteous indignation. They're simply talismans for kung fu powers out of video games.
I have fewer problems with this than with the Captain Andoran clones I see...
As cool as these ideas are, I'm pretty sure they just don't work in the RAW-only land of PFS on the basis that you're adding new mechanics to the game.
There are no rules for a ghost fist that is magically generated thanks to Dancing. It says the weapon itself must be the one to do the fighting. Similarly, Throwing weapons require that the weapon itself lunge over and do the damage, not a magical strong gust of air.
Let me try and change my position a little. If you want to add Dancing or Throwing to your Natural Weapons, then by all means, go ahead. But you need to have some easy way to dislodge these body parts from your body. Assuming that these Weapon Enhancements allow you to just sorta pluck them off and toss them with ease, you'd have the difficulty of actually putting them back on, not to mention that you'd most definitely suffer at least 1 point of Bleed Damage each turn until someone performed a DC 15 Heal Check or cast a healing spell on you. Then, even if the weapon had Returning, there's nothing in the magic of Returning that allows you to reattach a limb to your body.
A missing limb would require a Regenerate spell in order to replace it.
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I'm not changing the mechanics at all - these use the in-game-effects as written.
They just change the special effect in ways that don't alter the mechanic and don't require someone to throw body parts at the enemy, walk over, and staple them back to themselves.
This is no different from saying "My fireballs glow with lambant blue energies" or "My fireballs are shocking purple!"
Or saying "My character does a three beat pattern to set up his attack with his trident, stepping into the final strike to impale Razmore's spleen, saying "That got the point across, didn't it?" as his opponent bleeds out.
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I'm not changing the mechanics at all - these use the in-game-effects as written.
Not true.
If I put throwing on my sword, I can throw it at an enemy, but then I have to go pick it up. But if I didn't kill the enemy (or if they had a buddy), they can pick it up and run off (or use it against me in melee, along with all its other properties). And then I don't have my weapon.
Turn it into bursts of air or what have you, and suddenly that risk no longer exists.
That is a mechanical change.
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There was a thread recently in which people were (seriously, as far as I could tell) arguing that you could put the Dancing or Throwing enchantments on your unarmed strikes, apparently allowing you to detach your limbs and send them off to fight people on their own. Because, hey, the rules didn't specifically say you couldn't, right? *sigh*
LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Would so allow this in a home game and than "get what you ask for"
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Throwing still requires you to walk to the square your opponent was in and self-aggrandize (spend a move action, just like you'd have to spend to pick up the weapon).
Yes, there's a minor advantage that you cannot have your thrown weapon picked up and stolen...which happens exactly how often in PFS games?
I mean, hey, you also can't disarm a monk's Improved Unarmed Strike and take it with you. (Presumably you could sunder it and take it with you, but the game really doesn't have rules for severing limbs.)
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I'm not changing the mechanics at all - these use the in-game-effects as written.
They just change the special effect in ways that don't alter the mechanic and don't require someone to throw body parts at the enemy, walk over, and staple them back to themselves.
I'm afraid that the point of these Enhancements was that the weapon itself was the one physically going over and doing these things. By 'reflavoring' these Enhancements, you have actually removed the most significant downside to the interaction between these Enhancements and Natural Weapons. Reflavoring is fine, but getting rid of real mechanical downsides (in this case, physically losing a limb by having it removed from your body and tossed) constitutes 'changing mechanics.'
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Yes, there's a minor advantage that you cannot have your thrown weapon picked up and stolen...which happens exactly how often in PFS games?
Uh, pretty often. My Archers and Gunslingers have learned that shooting while in Melee is the quickest way to have their weapons disarmed and possibly stolen. I've definitely had bad guys try to steal weapons if they thought they could get away with it, and it seemed like it was in character for them (for instance, a band of thieves attacking a bunch of Pathfinders in an alleyway).
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Never, because there are no rules for detaching limbs in Pathfinder. Which should actually already prevent these Enhancements from ever working with an Amulet of Mighty Fists and Natural Weapons because there are no rules for detaching limbs.
I think the more pertinent question is where on earth do you read the rules for Throwing and Dancing weapons and draw the conclusion that you can conjure ghost fists or air blasts.
The thing is, you're using flavor to remove a downside, which is losing a limb. There is nothing in the Throwing Enhancement which allows you to swing your sword and generate a energy blast in place of actually throwing your sword. Why should an Amulet of Mighty Fists plus Natural Weapons get any special treatment by the rules?
Throwing:
Your amulet of mighty fists allows you to "air punch" with such awesomeness that you may make one full attack per combat with a range increment of 10'. You can regenerate this ability by walking to the square where your opponent was and spending a Move action going "F*+@ YEAH!" or something similarly self aggrandizing.
This sort of thinking worries me deeply, because I really don't feel it's the correct approach to take in playing a game like Pathfinder. All the things you've mentioned have other inherent rules interactions. What happens if I throw my fist into some square I can no longer reach? So does the Amulet just stop working? Is that to simulate the idea of losing one's weapon? What if I attack an enemy in the air? Do I need to go to the square up there, or to the one 'on the ground'? What constitutes self aggrandizing oneself? Can I do it in a zone of silence? Also, does doing this provoke an Attack of Opportunity? Because picking up a weapon from the ground always does. What if I attacked an enemy that was walking on some hazard like Acid or Lava or Water or floating over a Pit? Where does my fist go then? Is it damaged, like a normal Thrown Weapon would be? Also, if I somehow manage to lose my Weapon, can I use a Wish spell to bring it back? I can see arguments for both sides.
Jiggy was bringing up the stolen weapon problem simply because it's the easiest example of why doing something like this just isn't a good idea.
But more importantly, it's the fact that you're blatantly trying to get around the problem of having to give up your limbs and not having an easy way to reattach them to your body without some sort of heavy duty magic or surgery, that is the real problem with doing something like this. This is not reflavoring. It is creating a new mechanic.
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Do you permit male clerics to channel energy?
By RAW, only female clerics can do so.
Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.
A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.
So, if you allow male clerics to channel, you're already breaking the Talmudic Purity of Pathfinder Society.
Can we please drive a stake through the heart of this line of reasoning?
People play this game to do Awesome Things. Awesome Things are highly subjective.
If there is an oddball case (like Amulets of Throwing Fists), my first instinct is to say "yes" provided the following criteria are met:
0) Will it ruin someone else's fun? If "Yes", say "no."
1) Is it substantially better than another character's primary schtick? If "No" - permit.
2) Does it use the same number and type of actions as the "normal" use? If "Yes" - permit.
3) Does it confer any advantage that is so great that everyone must always take this ability/spell/item to remain competitive? If "No" - permit. I don't see any archers giving up their bows for Amulets of Returning Throwing Fists. On the other hand, any ranged character who doesn't take Clustered Shots by level 7 is probably so severely suboptimal that melee characters might actually feel useful.
As a PFS GM, I don't have TIME to police everyone's concepts, items, etc, beyond running my usual check-in form, which asks for AC/Touch/Flat Footed, HPs, Init, Saves, Passive Perception Roll, and most commonly used attack sequences for ranged and melee attacks.
I only skim those for obvious problems. If someone has an Amulet of Throwing Returning Fists, I fully expect the player who spent 16K gold on it to A) have a fun time, and B) be entertaining with it.
It's been my experience that rewarding creative flavor (as opposed to rewarding hideous rules builds) makes a better experience than trying to police everything.
I am also blessed with players (and convention players) who regard PFS as a fun game and who regard telling a fun story where everyone gets a spotlight moment or three to be the real reward. I periodically see the theorycrafters with the Heisenberg-Spell-List, or the guy who needs scientific notation to keep track of his DPR, because, well, if he can't get all four attacks off in a 5' step and full attack and drop six monsters, I'm clearly hosing him...but they are much rarer than people who want to come in, explore, report and cooperate.
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Do you permit male clerics to channel energy?
By RAW, only female clerics can do so.
So, if you allow male clerics to channel, you're already breaking the Talmudic Purity of Pathfinder Society...
Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.
A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.
This is the greatest argument against RAW interpretations that I have seen, ever. I am favoriting your post just because that argument made my day. Thank you so much.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Do you permit male clerics to channel energy?
By RAW, only female clerics can do so.
The pronouns used for each class is the same as that of the corresponding Iconic. If you're going to follow that reasoning, only characters that match the sex of their iconic would be able to use their class abilities.
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The pronouns used for each class is the same as that of the corresponding Iconic. If you're going to follow that reasoning, only characters that match the sex of their iconic would be able to use their class abilities.Do you permit male clerics to channel energy?
By RAW, only female clerics can do so.
That's his point. If you think rules should be followed so strictly as to require that "throwing" means "throwing", then you must also enforce absurdities like single-gender classes. Since both are "RAW", then you have to either believe both or let both slide. (Just don't challenge the equivalency of the two "rules" - it debunks his whole point and undermines his sense of superiority against those who disagree with him, and we can't have that.)
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If someone came to my table with a Keen Amulet, but without Boar Style or some other way of doing P/S damage with their unarmed or natural weapons, then the Amulet would do nothing. Keen property does not apply to Bludgeon damage.
Exactly. But if they came with the Boar Style, or some other way (I think Improvised Weapon Mastery allows them different damage types as well and Monk of the Empty Hand I think does as well), then sure, it would work just fine.
Anchoring is fun. Think of all the kinky things you can do with that.
For PFS, you should also avoid all static cost enhancements. They weren't around when the AoMF was introduced, I think, so they don't have any rules allowing them. Err on the side of caution.
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If someone came to my table with a Keen Amulet, but without Boar Style or some other way of doing P/S damage with their unarmed or natural weapons, then the Amulet would do nothing. Keen property does not apply to Bludgeon damage.Exactly. But if they came with the Boar Style, or some other way (I think Improvised Weapon Mastery allows them different damage types as well and Monk of the Empty Hand I think does as well), then sure, it would work just fine.
But, even in that case, Keen would only apply when they are using their attack in an S or P mode.
Same idea, different direction: You can make a bow Keen, since the "standard" arrow is P. Would you allow Keen to apply if the archer were using blunt (B) arrows for an attack?
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If someone came to my table with a Keen Amulet, but without Boar Style or some other way of doing P/S damage with their unarmed or natural weapons, then the Amulet would do nothing. Keen property does not apply to Bludgeon damage.Exactly. But if they came with the Boar Style, or some other way (I think Improvised Weapon Mastery allows them different damage types as well and Monk of the Empty Hand I think does as well), then sure, it would work just fine.But, even in that case, Keen would only apply when they are using their attack in an S or P mode.
Same idea, different direction: You can make a bow Keen, since the "standard" arrow is P. Would you allow Keen to apply if the archer were using blunt (B) arrows for an attack?
** spoiler omitted **
You don't pick a type of damage (B/P/S) for natural attacks. They are always all 3 unless specifically stated as only one type.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Anchoring is fun. Think of all the kinky things you can do with that.
For PFS, you should also avoid all static cost enhancements. They weren't around when the AoMF was introduced, I think, so they don't have any rules allowing them. Err on the side of caution.
I disagree. It doesn't have the line baring them like the bracers of armor does, and it was errata'd just last month. They didn't change it then, therefore RAW gives tacit permision to use the fixed price enchantments.
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On a related topic, are flat cost weapon enhancements legal to place on an amulet of mighty fists (such as duelist for +14,000 gp from ultimate equipment)? Bracers of armor are specifically called out as not being able to do so, but I see no such stipulation for the amulets and just want to check to make sure I didn't miss any vital text. Thoughts?
There were no flat bonuses for weapons that I recall at the time of the amulet of mighty fists being printed. I'd assume no until further clarification.
For what it's worth, amulet of mighty fists: throwing will not work at my table, for the reasons outlined above.
Yeah, it'd be really no different than using a throwing weapon with a locked gauntlet.
You'd go to throw the weapon, but since it's locked to your hand it won't go anywhere.
I mean, I'd totally let you get the enchantment done to the amulet, but unless you are some oddball that can normally detach limbs at will it simply won't do anything. Might be an odd sensation though.
Alternately, if you want it would work but you'd need a Regenerate or Heal to reattach your fist.
"Ahah! My new Amulet will let me pummel you from afar! Rocket Fist Acti- AUUUUGH! OH GODS IT HURTS!"
-j
Thread necromancy ahoy!
-j