paizo.com Recent Posts in Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helppaizo.com Recent Posts in Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need help2012-12-16T14:25:35Z2012-12-16T14:25:35ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpWestphalian_Musketeerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2362014-07-20T19:16:15Z2014-07-20T19:16:15Z<p>If it were my game, that's a fall, with a shift to Lawful Neutral in my opinion. The Paladin was applying a blanket policy of "It pings evil, it dies." This smacks something more of a lawful neutral character that just goes through the law book, and finding the appropriate clause, but it into effect. If the single-step shift doesn't seem like it'd show the player what it means to be a paladin, have that wererat's child come back eventually, either sobbing and distraught after having lost a parent, or coming back some time later to confront the paladin, Ignoya Montoya style.</p>
<p>However, reading some more, I see that the same paladin had given a free pass to two evil characters because they had a good character to vouch for them. This makes me think that a slight shift towards chaotic be made as well.</p>If it were my game, that's a fall, with a shift to Lawful Neutral in my opinion. The Paladin was applying a blanket policy of "It pings evil, it dies." This smacks something more of a lawful neutral character that just goes through the law book, and finding the appropriate clause, but it into effect. If the single-step shift doesn't seem like it'd show the player what it means to be a paladin, have that wererat's child come back eventually, either sobbing and distraught after having lost a...Westphalian_Musketeer2014-07-20T19:16:15ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpRumpinRufushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2352012-12-19T15:46:23Z2012-12-19T15:46:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Starbuck_II wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">RumpinRufus wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it <b>honorable?</b> No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is <b>not</b> honorable.</p>
<p>The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage. </blockquote>But if he does enough nonlethal it converts to lethal, so it still dies. </blockquote><p>Well yes, but only if you keep wailing on it after it hits the ground.
<p>Nonlethal doesn't convert to lethal until they are already unconscious. So to kill someone with nonlethal, you have to do 2xHP+con, instead of HP+con to kill someone with lethal. Either way, once you've done HP damage, they are unconscious. The only way to kill someone with more than a couple HD from nonlethal is either hitting them while they're unconscious, or an unlucky crit.</p>Starbuck_II wrote:RumpinRufus wrote:I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it honorable? No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is not honorable.
The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage.
But if he does enough nonlethal it converts to lethal, so it still dies. Well yes, but only if you keep wailing on it after it hits the ground. Nonlethal doesn't convert to lethal until they are already unconscious. So to kill someone with...RumpinRufus2012-12-19T15:46:23ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpJohn Kerpanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2342012-12-19T13:43:23Z2012-12-19T13:43:23Z<p>There seem to be two huge problems that arise in almost every thread that rises to move than 100 replies:
<br />
1) Ignorance of the rules.
<br />
2) Disregard for other people.</p>
<p>1) In this thread, the rules for lycanthropy make it clear the wererat cannot be cured so late in the affliction, so debating whether or not it is possible in the abstract is not really useful for this thread.</p>
<p>How detect evil works is vital to being able to judge the situation and the players. It strikes me as possible that the GM or the player was not quite sure exactly how it worked (the online PRD defines no aura as having 4 hit dice or lower, being a cleric/paladin devoted to evil, or a creature actively planning something evil). If the creature had 5+ HD, 12 damage should not almost kill it. If it were planning something evil, then killing it seems justified, and the entreaty to leave was hoping the Paladin was Stupid Good. If it was a cleric dedicated to evil, then it is a active threat to society.) It seems likely that some little detail got missed by the player or the GM.</p>
<p>2) This problem is more prevalent. The GM is clearly not a bad one, or he would not be here, and people would not being saying he is good. However, just because you like your GM, that does not mean he does not make mistakes, or deals with all situations in an optimal manner.</p>
<p>For people who really think they can tell other people how they should play their own Paladins, it seems a little silly. Clearly you have a way that you really like, and you GM also likes, but there is no one way to play the game. Some GMs like paladins who are too noble for their own good, some like paladins who uphold the quest to kill evil at no cost. Some GMs make frequent uses of atonement possible, and others want their paladin to roll a new character if he falls. As long as the GM and the players are able to have reasonable discussions, any play style is possible.
<br />
•••••</p>
<p>It was an interesting situation, and looking at it with the GM hat on, it is a shame the wererat got killed before it could develop any sort of character. Looking at it from the players perspective, I would want it dead quickly, and would probably high-five the Paladin. It is a chance for both sides to gain GM/player EXP ^_^</p>There seem to be two huge problems that arise in almost every thread that rises to move than 100 replies:
1) Ignorance of the rules.
2) Disregard for other people.
1) In this thread, the rules for lycanthropy make it clear the wererat cannot be cured so late in the affliction, so debating whether or not it is possible in the abstract is not really useful for this thread.
How detect evil works is vital to being able to judge the situation and the players. It strikes me as possible that the...John Kerpan2012-12-19T13:43:23ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpSnorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2332012-12-19T12:27:54Z2012-12-19T12:27:54Z<p>Does all this contract negotiation take place in real time, while the rest of the party are fighting for their lives againt the BBEG and his other minions?</p>
<p>I can see the other PCs shouting "Aren't you finished yet? Just kill it already!".</p>Does all this contract negotiation take place in real time, while the rest of the party are fighting for their lives againt the BBEG and his other minions?
I can see the other PCs shouting "Aren't you finished yet? Just kill it already!".Snorter2012-12-19T12:27:54ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpIcyshadowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2322012-12-19T11:53:04Z2012-12-19T11:53:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chemlak wrote:</div><blockquote><p> That's an interesting point, and it's part of the way I deal with paladins in my games: honour is for honourable foes. (In all cases here, there is an unspoken "barring knowledge to the contrary".)</p>
<p>If an Erinyes cries "Mercy!", I would expect a paladin to stay his sword (assuming he knows enough to know that she is LE), because while she is Evil, it is fair to presume that her lawful nature would require her to repay the mercy. Should she not pay him back in kind before the paladin becomes aware of another evil act, she becomes fair game. She also becomes fair game if she violates either the spirit or the letter of her parole.</p>
<p>In the same situation with a Succubus, however, knowing that she is CE, the paladin cannot trust that she would ever abide by either the spirit or letter of any parole offered, and I'd let him smite away without a second thought.</p>
<p>In the case of the wererat begging for its life, I do not think the paladin had enough information to judge it worthy of death, since the only source he paid attention to was his Detect Evil. Yes, he knew that it was capable of wilfully harming innocents by its very nature, but he is required to be compassionate and act with honour: continuing to attack a target who chooses to not fight back is not honourable. That is a code violation. </blockquote><p>Lawful beings aren't banned from lying. Also, forcing an Erinyes to swear an oath that doesn't have some nasty loophole is going to be nearly impossible for a Paladin. I'd rather have the Paladin roll a Sense Motive check with a massive bonus to see if the Erinyes would stay true to her word. If the Paladin still can tell "this thing is planning to backstab me or attack an innocent" then off with her head. Being honorable is one thing, but it is <b>not</b> about being as moronic as someone with Int and Wis below 7.Chemlak wrote:That's an interesting point, and it's part of the way I deal with paladins in my games: honour is for honourable foes. (In all cases here, there is an unspoken "barring knowledge to the contrary".)
If an Erinyes cries "Mercy!", I would expect a paladin to stay his sword (assuming he knows enough to know that she is LE), because while she is Evil, it is fair to presume that her lawful nature would require her to repay the mercy. Should she not pay him back in kind before the...Icyshadow2012-12-19T11:53:04ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpjohnlocke90https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2312012-12-19T11:47:28Z2012-12-19T11:47:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tryn wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">RumpinRufus wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it <b>honorable?</b> No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is <b>not</b> honorable.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Thats right but a nonhonorable action is only a reason to fall if "honor" is part of this paladins code.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote> who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features </blockquote><p>If you use the basic code from PRD it is against it, but every paladin could have his own code, that's why you have to settle down this code BEFORE the play. (some good examples are in the "Faith of Purity").
<p>Good example were this action would not be against his code would be a "Oath-Paladin Against Savagery" as Were-creatures are in fact a threat for a community. </blockquote><p>A paladin who ignores portions of the PRD code is using houserules. We are discussing Pathfinder as it was created.Tryn wrote:RumpinRufus wrote:I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it honorable? No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is not honorable.
Thats right but a nonhonorable action is only a reason to fall if "honor" is part of this paladins code. Quote:who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
If you use the basic code from PRD it is against it, but every paladin...johnlocke902012-12-19T11:47:28ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpTrynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2302012-12-19T11:39:59Z2012-12-19T11:39:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">RumpinRufus wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it <b>honorable?</b> No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is <b>not</b> honorable.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Thats right but a nonhonorable action is only a reason to fall if "honor" is part of this paladins code.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote> who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features </blockquote><p>If you use the basic code from PRD it is against it, but every paladin could have his own code, that's why you have to settle down this code BEFORE the play. (some good examples are in the "Faith of Purity").
<p>Good example were this action would not be against his code would be a "Oath-Paladin Against Savagery" as Were-creatures are in fact a threat for a community.</p>RumpinRufus wrote:I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it honorable? No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is not honorable.
Thats right but a nonhonorable action is only a reason to fall if "honor" is part of this paladins code. Quote:who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
If you use the basic code from PRD it is against it, but every paladin could have his...Tryn2012-12-19T11:39:59ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpCrosswindhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2292012-12-18T17:39:22Z2012-12-18T17:39:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">RumpinRufus wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it <b>honorable?</b> No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is <b>not</b> honorable.</p>
<p>The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage. </blockquote><p>If only somebody has summarized all the wisdom of these boards into 5 easy points which are more concise an useful than the preceding 227 posts...
<p>http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9ew?Should-the-Paladin-Fall-A-Guide</p>
<p>-Cross</p>RumpinRufus wrote:I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it honorable? No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is not honorable.
The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage.
If only somebody has summarized all the wisdom of these boards into 5 easy points which are more concise an useful than the preceding 227 posts... http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9ew?Should-the-Paladin-Fall-A-Guide
-CrossCrosswind2012-12-18T17:39:22ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpStarbuck_IIhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2282012-12-18T17:37:53Z2012-12-18T17:37:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">RumpinRufus wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it <b>honorable?</b> No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is <b>not</b> honorable.</p>
<p>The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage. </blockquote><p>But if he does enough nonlethal it converts to lethal, so it still dies.RumpinRufus wrote:I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it honorable? No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is not honorable.
The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage.
But if he does enough nonlethal it converts to lethal, so it still dies.Starbuck_II2012-12-18T17:37:53ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpRumpinRufushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2272012-12-18T15:15:19Z2012-12-18T15:15:19Z<p>I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it <b>honorable?</b> No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is <b>not</b> honorable.</p>
<p>The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage.</p>I agree with the post directly above. Regardless of whether it was an evil act, was it honorable? No, killing a creature who refuses to fight back is not honorable.
The pally should have been doing nonlethal damage.RumpinRufus2012-12-18T15:15:19ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpChemlakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2262012-12-19T11:45:34Z2012-12-18T14:56:57Z<p>I'll say it again: continuing to attack a creature with lethal damage when it makes no move to attack you back is not honourable. That is a violation of the paladin's code.</p>
<p>The first strike, I'll let slide. Getting the first hit in is not dishonourable. If it had died on the first hit, it wouldn't bother me. But continuing to attack when all it did was defend itself and ask you to leave, when it could have fought back, definitely is.</p>I'll say it again: continuing to attack a creature with lethal damage when it makes no move to attack you back is not honourable. That is a violation of the paladin's code.
The first strike, I'll let slide. Getting the first hit in is not dishonourable. If it had died on the first hit, it wouldn't bother me. But continuing to attack when all it did was defend itself and ask you to leave, when it could have fought back, definitely is.Chemlak2012-12-18T14:56:57ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpshallowsoulhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2252012-12-18T14:53:50Z2012-12-18T14:53:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Starbuck_II wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ozymand wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>A Paladin would never slaughter someone who has attempted surrender and could, possibly, be redeemed. And, according to expanded rules in Pathfinder #45 and Classic Horrors Revisited, there are ways to cure lycanthropy beyond the 3 day period. A paladin would attempt to talk to the creature, toss out a skill check, find out <b>why</b> it is there.
<br />
</blockquote>The wererat never surrendered. It just asked them to leave. Who said it surrendered? </blockquote><p>Leave, so I can finish my evil plan. Paladin swears that's what he heard.Starbuck_II wrote:Ozymand wrote:A Paladin would never slaughter someone who has attempted surrender and could, possibly, be redeemed. And, according to expanded rules in Pathfinder #45 and Classic Horrors Revisited, there are ways to cure lycanthropy beyond the 3 day period. A paladin would attempt to talk to the creature, toss out a skill check, find out why it is there.
The wererat never surrendered. It just asked them to leave. Who said it surrendered? Leave, so I can finish my evil plan....shallowsoul2012-12-18T14:53:50ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpStarbuck_IIhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2242012-12-18T14:37:25Z2012-12-18T14:37:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ozymand wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>A Paladin would never slaughter someone who has attempted surrender and could, possibly, be redeemed. And, according to expanded rules in Pathfinder #45 and Classic Horrors Revisited, there are ways to cure lycanthropy beyond the 3 day period. A paladin would attempt to talk to the creature, toss out a skill check, find out <b>why</b> it is there.
<br />
</blockquote><p>The wererat never surrendered. It just asked them to leave. Who said it surrendered?Ozymand wrote:A Paladin would never slaughter someone who has attempted surrender and could, possibly, be redeemed. And, according to expanded rules in Pathfinder #45 and Classic Horrors Revisited, there are ways to cure lycanthropy beyond the 3 day period. A paladin would attempt to talk to the creature, toss out a skill check, find out why it is there.
The wererat never surrendered. It just asked them to leave. Who said it surrendered?Starbuck_II2012-12-18T14:37:25ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpTrynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2232012-12-18T14:30:51Z2012-12-18T14:30:51Z<p>I have to admit, even if I understand the paladins player and for me the killing of this creature is no act of evil, the better solution would be to capture it, if it begging for mercy (no a "LEAVE!" is no begging for mercy).
<br />
The question then is, what will happen with the captured creature? If it's brought back to the legitimate ruler, will he sentenced it to death?
<br />
I yes, why not execute the judgement directly... </p>
<p>Paladins code and behaviour is always difficult, as a DM i would not let a player fall without letting him know that what he WILL do is probably an act of evil. ("Willingly commit an act of evil")</p>I have to admit, even if I understand the paladins player and for me the killing of this creature is no act of evil, the better solution would be to capture it, if it begging for mercy (no a "LEAVE!" is no begging for mercy).
The question then is, what will happen with the captured creature? If it's brought back to the legitimate ruler, will he sentenced it to death?
I yes, why not execute the judgement directly...
Paladins code and behaviour is always difficult, as a DM i would not let a...Tryn2012-12-18T14:30:51ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpWind Chimehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2222012-12-18T14:14:16Z2012-12-18T14:14:16Z<p>Is killing the wear rat lawful, the answer is probably yes most laws are pragmatic rather than moral and the were curse is a very significant threat to 'humanity'. So I imagine the laws regarding the treatment of were creatures are along the line of smite with extreme prejudice. </p>
<p>Which leaves wherever the action was evil, killing the rat because you enjoy killing things would be evil, killing the rat because it was the lawful thing to do would be neutral and killing the rat to ensure it doesn't spread its curse to others would be a good act.</p>Is killing the wear rat lawful, the answer is probably yes most laws are pragmatic rather than moral and the were curse is a very significant threat to 'humanity'. So I imagine the laws regarding the treatment of were creatures are along the line of smite with extreme prejudice.
Which leaves wherever the action was evil, killing the rat because you enjoy killing things would be evil, killing the rat because it was the lawful thing to do would be neutral and killing the rat to ensure it...Wind Chime2012-12-18T14:14:16ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpjohnlocke90https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2212012-12-18T15:12:48Z2012-12-18T12:47:19Z<p>Whether or not attacking the wererat is a "good" action, I definitely wouldn't consider it honorable. Attacking a target who has done nothing to fight back isn't honorable.</p>Whether or not attacking the wererat is a "good" action, I definitely wouldn't consider it honorable. Attacking a target who has done nothing to fight back isn't honorable.johnlocke902012-12-18T12:47:19ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpChemlakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2202012-12-18T12:37:01Z2012-12-18T12:37:01Z<p>That's an interesting point, and it's part of the way I deal with paladins in my games: honour is for honourable foes. (In all cases here, there is an unspoken "barring knowledge to the contrary".)</p>
<p>If an Erinyes cries "Mercy!", I would expect a paladin to stay his sword (assuming he knows enough to know that she is LE), because while she is Evil, it is fair to presume that her lawful nature would require her to repay the mercy. Should she not pay him back in kind before the paladin becomes aware of another evil act, she becomes fair game. She also becomes fair game if she violates either the spirit or the letter of her parole.</p>
<p>In the same situation with a Succubus, however, knowing that she is CE, the paladin cannot trust that she would ever abide by either the spirit or letter of any parole offered, and I'd let him smite away without a second thought.</p>
<p>In the case of the wererat begging for its life, I do not think the paladin had enough information to judge it worthy of death, since the only source he paid attention to was his Detect Evil. Yes, he knew that it was capable of wilfully harming innocents by its very nature, but he is required to be compassionate and act with honour: continuing to attack a target who chooses to not fight back is not honourable. That is a code violation.</p>That's an interesting point, and it's part of the way I deal with paladins in my games: honour is for honourable foes. (In all cases here, there is an unspoken "barring knowledge to the contrary".)
If an Erinyes cries "Mercy!", I would expect a paladin to stay his sword (assuming he knows enough to know that she is LE), because while she is Evil, it is fair to presume that her lawful nature would require her to repay the mercy. Should she not pay him back in kind before the paladin becomes...Chemlak2012-12-18T12:37:01ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpTrynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2192012-12-18T12:25:11Z2012-12-18T12:25:11Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rynjin wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Tryn wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
@Cheliax: Every Paladin who walks the streets of Cheliax and not doing anything against the evil there only because it's common, should fall.</blockquote><p>This is pretty much the definition of Stupid Good.
<p>Because picking a fight with an entire country is both idiotic and pointless. </blockquote><p>I'm not saying he should pick the fight (this would be stupid), but even small things matter and could have big impact. (giving a poor man in this town somethign to eat, free a unjust jailed person etc.)Rynjin wrote:Tryn wrote:
@Cheliax: Every Paladin who walks the streets of Cheliax and not doing anything against the evil there only because it's common, should fall.
This is pretty much the definition of Stupid Good. Because picking a fight with an entire country is both idiotic and pointless. I'm not saying he should pick the fight (this would be stupid), but even small things matter and could have big impact. (giving a poor man in this town somethign to eat, free a unjust jailed person...Tryn2012-12-18T12:25:11ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpDudeacleshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2182012-12-18T12:14:57Z2012-12-18T12:14:57Z<p>Sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread, so if my comment is redundant, please forgive me.</p>
<p>1- Yeah you have a frikin evil Paladin there who has lost his 'inhood :D</p>
<p>2- Detect evil won't detect any evil under 5th level, unless that creature is about to OR in the act of committing an evil act.</p>
<p>3- Paladin will not just kill anyone whom they detect as evil, while walking don the street (he'd never get sleep for one-thing - And -
<br />
It would be quite funny if he ran this character through pfs 1st steps, because he would detect evil on the Para-Countessa of Cheliax :)</p>
<p>4- On a side note, if you had a Porthole to Abyss open, with a view to a DemonPrinces private den.., A low level Paladin 'detecting evil' on him would have to make a huge save to NOT go into <span class=messageboard-bigger><b>SHOCK</b></span> - as per spell description as I recall (always fun: )</p>
<p>Paladin's stand by a strict moral code (which is helpful to have written out by the character).
<br />
While a Paladin will not just attack anyone radiating evil in the street, he can have a conversation of redemption with them.
<br />
Paladin's should always react to 'detect evil' within a town, for it usually represents an evil act 'about' to be committed: Justy is strolling down the street scanning for E-V-I-L.., Hello Mr. Baker, Hello Mr. Fishmonger, Hello... <b>-BING-Bing-Bing!!!</b> GOLY GEE Batman Mr. Baker is suddenly radiating evil, as he produces a knife to wield against that wife-covetting Fishmonger!
<br />
Now the Paladin can try to prevent an evil act from happening, and save the soul of the distraught Baker ;)</p>
<p>Paladin's can be quite fun to play, but u as the GM too, have to be careful of what positions you get him into. If he's going to be stupid, then it's not your fault - lol</p>
<p>Paladin's adhere strictly to THEIR own moral code, law and goodness in this order: Good/Law.
<br />
=========================================================
<br />
• A Paladin walking through an mostly evil city, is already in trouble on many levels.
<br />
He can see lots of 'evil' going on, and in dismay realizes there is little he can do at the moment.
<br />
• He spots smugglers freeing slaves, thus breaking one of the few laws within the forsaken town. He's glad, it's not one of his laws because he dislikes slavery with a passion, and looks the other way.
<br />
• He spots a thug about to club some one from behind, and he 'accidentally' sticks out his foot to trip the ruffian, and then continues on his way...
<br />
—- The Paladin has completed his mission of scouting out the town without getting himself or any party members killed - lol —</p>
<p><i>Finally a paladin doesn't have to sound like a wuss - I've played some very intimidating 'Clint-Eastwood' sounding paladin's. I've also played Justy the Justifier who was a very prim-'proper' totally gay paladin. They all had their own Moral Codes of 'good' 'law' and 'honor' :D</i></p>Sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread, so if my comment is redundant, please forgive me.
1- Yeah you have a frikin evil Paladin there who has lost his 'inhood :D
2- Detect evil won't detect any evil under 5th level, unless that creature is about to OR in the act of committing an evil act.
3- Paladin will not just kill anyone whom they detect as evil, while walking don the street (he'd never get sleep for one-thing - And -
It would be quite funny if he ran this character through...Dudeacles2012-12-18T12:14:57ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpSnorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2172012-12-18T11:43:55Z2012-12-18T11:43:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jason Terlecki wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I once had to stop a paladin, in a game I played a long time ago, from dealing a death blow to an Erinyes while we were storming an enemy stronghold. Why? She said one word: Mercy. We had just made it to the room that had the main villain and some of his henchmen and her. the bad guy commanded her to attack us, while we did our best to attack them. As we basically defeated all but her (though she was nearly dead), she begged for mercy.</p>
<p>Now, at the time, it was likely an act but to me, she genuinely looked scared, so as the paladin went for her, regardless of her plea, I found myself defending her. I told her to get out of here and that she owed me one. Needless to say I got into an argument about ethics with the paladin (which I have to admit, was one of the finest role-playing moments I ever had the pleasure to partake in). All but the wizard of the group claimed I was played for an idiot (even the GM hinted I may have been a bit foolish to do so, but not necessarily wrong either).</p>
<p>A few months later, in a fight that went horribly wrong (I have never seen every single PC being completely disabled by a single spell via bad saving throw rolls), we end up prisoners. The GM took a moment to contemplate the situation and then you could see he was thinking up something and said we woke up in cells. Now we are all getting ready for our •obvious• torture sessions, but behold a guard comes, relieves the current guard and then opens my cell once the other one is gone. "My debt has been paid." It did took me a moment to click it was "her". Ultimately, one act of compassion sorta led to another one, even if it was performed by a devil. The whole thing also lead to a whole new slew of adventures, involving her.</blockquote><p>That's a good story, and if I were that GM, I would probably have done something similar.
</p>
Though I would have started by checking the list of non-fiendish, non-evil NPCs who had been shown mercy in the past, and defaulted to one of them, if possible, using the eryines as a last resort, if none of the other suspects had the tools to save the PCs.</p>
<p>I do have some NPCs repent, or change sides; some are even sincere, though for others it's an opportunity to get in with the winning side, when the writing's on the wall.</p>
<p>But I generally have an idea which NPCs are susceptible to this, before the game is run. Some NPCs know their crimes are so foul they will never be granted amnesty. Some claim ignorance "I was just hired to guard this building, I didn't know what was going on upstairs, honest!". The latter are more likely to surrender, turn on their employer, or just run into the sunset.</p>
<p>I think you're mistaken, if you believe this account proves anything about the wisdom of granting mercy to enemies.
<br />
From your own account, the GM was as surprised as the players, that a plea for mercy had actually worked.
<br />
Under a lot of GMs, including ones I've gamed with, that one action would have been the catalyst, which doomed the PCs. The erinyes would have ported off, healed up, buffed, and come back to kill them when they were weakened. No question.
<br />
"But why? When it was granted mercy?"
<br />
Because it's a devil. It's evil. That's what evil creatures do. They don't spend much time mulling over their past deeds, wondering whether they were mistaken, to have caused suffering. They justify themselves as always being in the right, and their enemies/victims as being in the wrong, and deserving of their fate.
<br />
The erinyes had a reason for being there, an agenda for the overall campaign. And the PCs are still, presumably, interfering in that. So they have to die.
<br />
And if she even remembers that one of the PCs failed to take the killing blow, or shielded her from it, that is most likely to cause her contempt. Might Makes Right, in Hell, after all.
<br />
If by some miracle, she decides to reward that PC, it will be in the form of "I owe that one. I will kill him last.".</p>
<p>What you are actually describing, with that story, is a GM trying to rescue his campaign from a series of unbelievably unlucky dice-rolls.
<br />
Since any party able to fight such a group of creatures (of whom an Erinyes is not even the focus), should have "<i>Save vs Everything at 2+, With Re-Rolls</i>" as a universal ability.</p>
<p>He also likely predicted, that if he adjudicated the most likely consequences of the erinyes escaping (the party being hunted down and killed by the erinyes), the group would implode in angry recriminations, which may even wreck their ability to ever sit at the same table again.</p>
<p>Given the choice, between having the campaign end in an explosion of bitter infighting, or on the whimper of a freakish run of bad luck (and throwing months of prep and playtime down the toilet);
<br />
or keeping it going, via some out-of-character retcon, he chose the latter.
<br />
I'd have done the same. I'm only human, and I don't want to see everything end on a downer, when there's still 100 pages of scenario to go.</p>
<p>You have a sympathetic GM, there, who wants his group to have fun. He sounds like a keeper.
<br />
But don't mistake his choice, to mitigate the consequences of a player's boneheaded decision, as proof that the original decision was any less boneheaded.</p>Jason Terlecki wrote:I once had to stop a paladin, in a game I played a long time ago, from dealing a death blow to an Erinyes while we were storming an enemy stronghold. Why? She said one word: Mercy. We had just made it to the room that had the main villain and some of his henchmen and her. the bad guy commanded her to attack us, while we did our best to attack them. As we basically defeated all but her (though she was nearly dead), she begged for mercy.
Now, at the time, it was likely an...Snorter2012-12-18T11:43:55ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpIcyshadowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2162012-12-18T11:41:12Z2012-12-18T11:41:12Z<p>"What's a Paladin?"</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>"What is a Paladin?! A miserable little pile of secrets!"</p>"What's a Paladin?"
and
"What is a Paladin?! A miserable little pile of secrets!"Icyshadow2012-12-18T11:41:12ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpVincent Dagomir (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2152012-12-18T11:30:27Z2012-12-18T11:30:27Z<p>They should at least call it something else...</p>
<p>If you want to play a paladin that puts convenience above good and death above salvation on the priority list you should al least rename it like 'abnormally super self righeous murderhobo' instead of paladin.</p>They should at least call it something else...
If you want to play a paladin that puts convenience above good and death above salvation on the priority list you should al least rename it like 'abnormally super self righeous murderhobo' instead of paladin.Vincent Dagomir (alias of tennengar)2012-12-18T11:30:27ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helpJhidurievdrioshka (alias of tennengar)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2142012-12-18T11:17:15Z2012-12-18T11:17:15Z<p>RAT: I mean you no harm. My human baby is in the other room. Help us.</p>
<p>PAL: I'm sorry rat. I don't have time to sort your situation out for you at the moment so get to the temple and fix your stuff or the next time I see you I flip the switch... ok?</p>
<p>or...</p>
<p>PAL: I'm sorry rat. I don't have time to sort your situation out for you at the moment so I'll be back for you later so we can get you the help you need.</p>
<p>any of that kind of thing is ok... not</p>
<p>PAL: I'm sorry rat. I don't have time to sort your situation out for you at the moment so i'm afraid I'm gonna have to keell you.</p>
<p>What a lazy copout. A paladin full of excuses is no kind of paladin.</p>RAT: I mean you no harm. My human baby is in the other room. Help us.
PAL: I'm sorry rat. I don't have time to sort your situation out for you at the moment so get to the temple and fix your stuff or the next time I see you I flip the switch... ok?
or...
PAL: I'm sorry rat. I don't have time to sort your situation out for you at the moment so I'll be back for you later so we can get you the help you need.
any of that kind of thing is ok... not
PAL: I'm sorry rat. I don't have time to...Jhidurievdrioshka (alias of tennengar)2012-12-18T11:17:15ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helptennengarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2132012-12-18T11:01:44Z2012-12-18T11:01:44Z<p>Was it saving private Ryan where they let the guy go only to have to kill him again later?</p>
<p>It was very paladin to let the guy go. It put them in a very dangerous situation.</p>
<p>And it was also very paladin when he popped back up again killin people to kill him later.</p>
<p>The right choice is often not the easy choice, but its the choice the paladin signs up for.</p>
<p>They don't get to walk the 'easy path' that another class could.</p>
<p>Its not something that they do... <b>it's who they are.</b></p>
<p>Thats what makes them <b>Paladins</b>, and if they don't do it, they're not paladins.</p>Was it saving private Ryan where they let the guy go only to have to kill him again later?
It was very paladin to let the guy go. It put them in a very dangerous situation.
And it was also very paladin when he popped back up again killin people to kill him later.
The right choice is often not the easy choice, but its the choice the paladin signs up for.
They don't get to walk the 'easy path' that another class could.
Its not something that they do... it's who they are.
Thats what makes...tennengar2012-12-18T11:01:44ZRe: Forums: Advice: Paladin (Alignment) Debate - Need helptennengarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9o4&page=5?Paladin-Debate-Need-help#2122012-12-18T10:57:22Z2012-12-18T10:57:22Z<p>I'm afraid I have to side firmly with letting the paladin fall.</p>
<p>I don't feel like an alignment check is carte blanche for stabbity 'salvation', 'Fog of war' or no...</p>
<p>'Oh should a paladin just wait and see if the Rat then tries to stab him in the back at an inopportune moment?" Yes... He absolutely should...</p>
<p>Does that make life difficult for the poor widdle paladin? <b>Yes. Its supposed to. Thats the point. </b></p>
<p>You are held to a higher standard. To walk a path that is more demanding than simply turning on the evil radar and stabbing evil in the face. Thats what makes paladins revered (the way a good cop is revered)... Yeah. You have to wait for the man barracaded in his own home to shoot before you can shoot back. That makes a cop's job difficult.</p>
<p>Oh we have to take the rat to the temple to cure the lycanthropy and that would be inconvenient... Sorry sir. Paladin is like the furthest thing from being about convenience. It's about doing the right thing even when it isn't convenient. Sometimes that means the bad guy you were originally after gets away... The price you pay for doing whats right.</p>
<p>Rat: please leave
<br />
Pal: sorry mam. I'm afraid I can't do that...evil radar... you know how it goes.
<br />
Rat: i mean you no harm and my human baby is in the next room
<br />
Pal: you're an unfit mother. on my word of honor we will deliver your baby safely to the temple...</p>
<p>Then either the rat bravely but foolishly gives in to maternal (not evil) impulse and attacks to defend its young, or it realizes its plight and hands its baby over, or it lets the pal go about his business and hope he never comes back... or becomes the pally's prisoner and is delivered with its baby to the temple for cure/redemption... or becomes the pallys prisoner and gives in to its evil nature and attacks at an opportune moment at which point stabbity death is fine...</p>
<p>So many ways to handle it but that doesn't sound like how it went down at all.</p>
<p>Its sad that the rat didnt explain itself but the responsibility is still on the paladin to use murderhobo as a last resort, not the first resort... Even if its a pain in the butt.</p>I'm afraid I have to side firmly with letting the paladin fall.
I don't feel like an alignment check is carte blanche for stabbity 'salvation', 'Fog of war' or no...
'Oh should a paladin just wait and see if the Rat then tries to stab him in the back at an inopportune moment?" Yes... He absolutely should...
Does that make life difficult for the poor widdle paladin? Yes. Its supposed to. Thats the point.
You are held to a higher standard. To walk a path that is more demanding than simply...tennengar2012-12-18T10:57:22Z