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Another school shooting


Off-Topic Discussions

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Andoran

For those of you living in the USA. My condolscences to all families who lost a child or children.

What the hell is this world coming too

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12 ... -says?lite


The death toll continues to rise, and it's already well past Columbine levels. The last year has seen a rash of violent mass shootings (this isn't even the first one this week!) and yet for some reason we still haven't given any serious attention to the issue of curbing gun violence and mass shootings. Every time someone tries to bring it up, he's immediately shut down by hordes of gun nuts with idiot-speak like, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," or, "If everyone had a gun, people could protect themselves better!"

Yeah, 60 year-old Mrs. Henderson should be issued a firearm she doesn't know how to use so that in the event of an armed gunman with intent to kill entering her classroom, she can efficiently take him out while managing to avoid hitting any of the thirty panicked children in the process, before he has a chance to shoot her.

That's way better than restricting who is allowed to get ahold of what weapons.


Here's a working link.

This one is close to home.


Scott Betts wrote:

The death toll continues to rise, and it's already well past Columbine levels. The last year has seen a rash of violent mass shootings (this isn't even the first one this week!) and yet for some reason we still haven't given any serious attention to the issue of curbing gun violence and mass shootings. Every time someone tries to bring it up, he's immediately shut down by hordes of gun nuts with idiot-speak like, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," or, "If everyone had a gun, people could protect themselves better!"

Yeah, 60 year-old Mrs. Henderson should be issued a firearm she doesn't know how to use so that in the event of an armed gunman with intent to kill entering her classroom, she can efficiently take him out while managing to avoid hitting any of the thirty panicked children in the process, before he has a chance to shoot her.

That's way better than restricting who is allowed to get ahold of what weapons.

Scott, let's not go there preemptively. If people here start bringing that nonsense up, I'll help shut it down, but let's not start the argument if we can avoid it.

Andoran

This is only about 30 miles from where I live. I know people who have kids at that school and others nearby. Don't know how they are yet but keeping my fingers crossed. This is just too sad for words.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:

The death toll continues to rise, and it's already well past Columbine levels. The last year has seen a rash of violent mass shootings (this isn't even the first one this week!) and yet for some reason we still haven't given any serious attention to the issue of curbing gun violence and mass shootings. Every time someone tries to bring it up, he's immediately shut down by hordes of gun nuts with idiot-speak like, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," or, "If everyone had a gun, people could protect themselves better!"

Yeah, 60 year-old Mrs. Henderson should be issued a firearm she doesn't know how to use so that in the event of an armed gunman with intent to kill entering her classroom, she can efficiently take him out while managing to avoid hitting any of the thirty panicked children in the process, before he has a chance to shoot her.

That's way better than restricting who is allowed to get ahold of what weapons.

Scott, let's not go there preemptively. If people here start bringing that nonsense up, I'll help shut it down, but let's not start the argument if we can avoid it.

No one is doing it here, but it's being said right now, all over the place. Everyone with a vested interest in protecting their imagined gun rights is coming out of the woodwork. They've seen this before, and they know they have to address it head-on. They're going there preemptively.

This should be the focus of discussions regarding mass shootings - why do they happen, and how can they be prevented. We haven't had any serious gun control regulations presented on a national level for years, now, and miraculously we've had more mass shootings than just about any time I can remember. It's abundantly clear that unrestricted ownership of firearms and the associated glorification of gun ownership and gun use is doing nothing to stop mass shootings, so why do we continue to allow the gun-rights crowd to run roughshod over the idea that weapons that make mass killings a fairly trivial matter ought to be tightly controlled?


I still don't understand why the US don't restrain the sale of firearms.
I don't believe Americans to be significantly more violent than Europeans but for historical reasons they own significantly more firearms and I'm afraid it explains (partly) why these wild shooting are happening that often.

Qadira

normanak wrote:
This is only about 30 miles from where I live. I know people who have kids at that school and others nearby. Don't know how they are yet but keeping my fingers crossed. This is just too sad for words.

I hope to every power in heaven that those children at least are unhurt, I truly do hope that you and those you care for are spared that anguish.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is so horrible, I can't even process it. I just heard on the news that an entire kindergarten class was killed.

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Callous Jack wrote:
This is so horrible, I can't even process it. I just heard on the news that an entire kindergarten class was killed.

My youngest starts Kindergarten next year, I know it sounds trite, but that is all I keep thinking about, about what it would do to my world... I am so torn between tear-filled grief and unabated rage.


The evil that men do.


I am impressed by the powers that be not cowing to the media pressure to release more than basic details before they get their ducks in a row to speak to those affected and search out evidence.

Qadira

Moorluck wrote:
I deleted my last post, the vulgarity directed towards you Bill was called for. I need to step away, so that is what I will do.


Why do these shootings always happen when a big movie comes out? Something fishy going on about these shootings and I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Something needs to be done to deal with the underlying mental health issues that are at the root of all these incidents.

Hopefully the families that lost loved ones, as well as the families that had to live through this, can somehow find peace and closure.


I heard there's an average of 24 people killed everyday by firearms in the US...


HangarFlying wrote:

Something needs to be done to deal with the underlying mental health issues that are at the root of all these incidents.

Hopefully the families that lost loved ones, as well as the families that had to live through this, can somehow find peace and closure.

Mental health is a huge problem. But, unfortunately, it's super hard to diagnose (though we are getting better), and we can't rely on identifying all of the mentally ill in order to stop gun violence. We need to do more than just addresses mental health.


SuperSlayer wrote:
Why do these shootings always happen when a big movie comes out? Something fishy going on about these shootings and I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

There's nothing "fishy" about it. These are independent events only very loosely connected by the occasional shared cultural element.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Scott Betts wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:

Something needs to be done to deal with the underlying mental health issues that are at the root of all these incidents.

Hopefully the families that lost loved ones, as well as the families that had to live through this, can somehow find peace and closure.

Mental health is a huge problem. But, unfortunately, it's super hard to diagnose (though we are getting better), and we can't rely on identifying all of the mentally ill in order to stop gun violence. We need to do more than just addresses mental health.

Agreed. This is not politics, or at least it shouldn't be - it's common sense. If fewer people had guns (meaning just the police, the military and others that had a necessary, legitimate reason for needing firearms) and it was much harder to obtain said guns (significant waiting periods, thorough background checks, mental health professionals being able to flag patients they feel might be dangerous etc.), there WOULD be fewer instances of this ... another shooting tragedy.

The entire situation makes you angry and want to cry all at the same time.


Angstspawn wrote:
I heard there's an average of 24 people killed everyday by firearms in the US...

It's much higher than that.

According to the CDC (which tracks causes of death), in 2009 (the most recent year for which the CDC has a finalized report) there were 11,493 deaths in the United States due to homicide committed with a firearm. That translates to roughly 31.5 deaths per day.

When you factor in suicides committed with firearms and deaths due to accidental discharge of firearms, the total comes to 30,782 deaths annually, or roughly 84.5 deaths every day.

Paizo Employee Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed several posts that are out of line. This is a very tough day for all of us. This hits especially close to home as I lived in Connecticut for 8 years and I am still waiting for a call from a friend that lives Newtown, to make sure his family is ok. He has a five year old daughter in kindergarten but I don't know what school the child attends. She is the same age as my daughter.

Feel free to talk about this incident, the politics around it, etc... But, please keep this post civil or it will be locked.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, take it from me, CT is not a fun happy place right now.

Too many people are hurt right now to make a meaningful decision regarding future rights/laws/etc.

I just hope no more tragedy stems from this incident.


psionichamster wrote:
Too many people are hurt right now to make a meaningful decision regarding future rights/laws/etc.

That is false, and you should stop saying stuff like that.


There's something like 200 millions firearms in the US so I'm afraid it's impossible now to limit gun availability but wouldn't be possible to put a high tax on bullets (to multiply their price by 5 or 10) expecting it will slowly reduce the use of firearms over 10 or 20 years??


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

So the idea with taxing bullets would accomplish what exactly? The only people who go through a lot of ammo are target shooters. Hunters don't, someone commiting suicide doesn't, most people out to kill someone don't. They only other people that might is a mentally upstable individual like this person who is planning as many people as possible before being killed or killing themselves. They really wouldn't be concerned that the murder spree was going to cost a little extra.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:

The death toll continues to rise, and it's already well past Columbine levels. The last year has seen a rash of violent mass shootings (this isn't even the first one this week!) and yet for some reason we still haven't given any serious attention to the issue of curbing gun violence and mass shootings. Every time someone tries to bring it up, he's immediately shut down by hordes of gun nuts with idiot-speak like, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," or, "If everyone had a gun, people could protect themselves better!"

Yeah, 60 year-old Mrs. Henderson should be issued a firearm she doesn't know how to use so that in the event of an armed gunman with intent to kill entering her classroom, she can efficiently take him out while managing to avoid hitting any of the thirty panicked children in the process, before he has a chance to shoot her.

That's way better than restricting who is allowed to get ahold of what weapons.

You say that last line with the sarcasm it deserves, but many gun advocates would mean it literally.

Fact of the matter is we have a culture that worships the idea of personal violence as redress, our heroes all use guns, break all sorts of rules, and frequently get almost as nasty as the villains they pursue. Not to mention movies like "Falling Down". When violence becomes an acceptable method of redressing one's problems than violence will become a more common response.


Scott Betts wrote:
Every time someone tries to bring it up, he's immediately shut down by hordes of gun nuts with idiot-speak like, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," or, "If everyone had a gun, people could protect themselves better!"

You probably shouldn't say that (that just sounds like an invitation for people do that, not to mention make some angry.) Although I have noticed (for the most part), most people on the forums don't support guns, I could be wrong

I don't approve of what they have done, but I still believe there are some people that just do not deserve to own a gun period. I also believe we could seriously use better gun control laws.

(My opinion on gun bans: Ultimately, I think it would make it worse. I feel that it would punish the sane good responsible people more so than the insane bad irresponsible crazies. Also, at this point in time, I just don't think it's even possible.)


Nim Folkor wrote:
So the idea with taxing bullets would accomplish what exactly? The only people who go through a lot of ammo are target shooters. Hunters don't, someone commiting suicide doesn't, most people out to kill someone don't. They only other people that might is a mentally upstable individual like this person who is planning as many people as possible before being killed or killing themselves. They really wouldn't be concerned that the murder spree was going to cost a little extra.

I agree with most of your point but don't believe a law making illegal the possession of a firearm is possible in the US, someway the idea is to break the "cool image" of having a gun.

I submit to your point of view that just a tax on bullets is useless.

A better idea somewhere???


LazarX wrote:
You say that last line with the sarcasm it deserves, but many gun advocates would mean it literally.

Sure, but fortunately we don't have to listen to people offering solutions that aren't grounded in a solid grasp of reality.

Quote:
Fact of the matter is we have a culture that worships the idea of personal violence as redress, our heroes all use guns, break all sorts of rules, and frequently get almost as nasty as the villains they pursue. Not to mention movies like "Falling Down". When violence becomes an acceptable method of redressing one's problems than violence will become a more common response.

I don't think that the idea of guns being used in entertainment is as problematic as the entrenched belief by a huge segment of the American population that gun ownership is inherently good, and is a patriotic act that expresses a love for what that person believes the underpinnings of American culture to be. I have a few friends who are firearms enthusiasts, and they have friends who are quintessential gun nuts (one of them sports a profile picture of him in camo with an assault rifle in hand). My Facebook feed this morning is terrifying. They honestly believe that the government wants to take their guns away, they believe that requiring a psychological clean bill of health is equivalent to Orwellian thought police, they believe that government cannot be trusted to do anything right, and they believe that teachers should be armed. I wish I could say that I was inferring some of that, but I'm not. It's all things that they literally said.

This doesn't have anything to do with them watching too much Die Hard growing up. It has to do with radical conservative beliefs that view firearm possession as an expression of patriotism (which, paradoxically, they believe to be the same thing as hating the government).


Marthian wrote:
You probably shouldn't say that (that just sounds like an invitation for people do that, not to mention make some angry.) Although I have noticed (for the most part), most people on the forums don't support guns, I could be wrong

You're probably right, at least on these forums.

Qadira

This isn't an argument about Gun control - its about you feeling no obligations to laws that guarantee everyone's right to life


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber
Angstspawn wrote:
Nim Folkor wrote:
So the idea with taxing bullets would accomplish what exactly? The only people who go through a lot of ammo are target shooters. Hunters don't, someone commiting suicide doesn't, most people out to kill someone don't. They only other people that might is a mentally upstable individual like this person who is planning as many people as possible before being killed or killing themselves. They really wouldn't be concerned that the murder spree was going to cost a little extra.

I agree with most of your point but don't believe a law making illegal the possession of a firearm is possible in the US, someway the idea is to break the "cool image" of having a gun.

I submit to your point of view that just a tax on bullets is useless.

A better idea somewhere???

I don't believe guns should be made illegal even if we could. I do agree that attitudes towards guns have changed over time but I don't know what to do about it. There used to be a lot more respect for guns by people who owned them. Somewhere along the line, a gun became a means to make someone feel tougher or respected. You have innercity kids who feel nobody cares about them or kids who are picked on and both types feel that a gun makes them somebody. They don't know enough about respect or self respect to know the difference between someone fearing them and someone respecting them.

There is a lot that needs to be done in our society to shift back to parents raising their children, not society, television, schools, or other children (gangs). I don't have an easy answer and the situation seems to be getting worse as people are leading increasingly fast paced lives leaving them little time to properly focus on the next generation.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
Angstspawn wrote:
I heard there's an average of 24 people killed everyday by firearms in the US...

It's much higher than that.

According to the CDC (which tracks causes of death), in 2009 (the most recent year for which the CDC has a finalized report) there were 11,493 deaths in the United States due to homicide committed with a firearm. That translates to roughly 31.5 deaths per day.

When you factor in suicides committed with firearms and deaths due to accidental discharge of firearms, the total comes to 30,782 deaths annually, or roughly 84.5 deaths every day.

According to the CDC, there were 10,228 deaths due to alcohol impaired crashes in the US in 2010. They further state that 1.4 million drivers were arrested in the same year for driving under the influence of alcohol.

Furthermore, the CDC states that there were 32,885 deaths in motor vehicle accidents in 2010.

Shall we adopt your stance against firearms and apply it to alcohol and/or motor vehicles?

Ultimately, the problem is much much deeper than just guns and gun control.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:

Something needs to be done to deal with the underlying mental health issues that are at the root of all these incidents.

Hopefully the families that lost loved ones, as well as the families that had to live through this, can somehow find peace and closure.

Mental health is a huge problem. But, unfortunately, it's super hard to diagnose (though we are getting better), and we can't rely on identifying all of the mentally ill in order to stop gun violence. We need to do more than just addresses mental health.

It's very difficult to keep someone above the age of eighteen on pills, seeing a shrink, or in the hospital against their will. There are good historical reasons for that (and of course we also gutted spending on mental health back in the 80s because the only thing more evil than taxation is helping people with taxation) and most people with mental health problems are not dangerous to others.

So yeah, improving how we handle mental health would be a huge good thing to do all on its own but probably would not help much with mass shootings.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

I woke up this morning read the news and cried.

I live in Australia and my heart goes out to all of you in the US. We feel your tragedy all the way over here.

I do hope you guys take this chance to hold your families close. Tell them you love them.

I also hope you guys use this time to do some good for your nation and look at the state of mental health and gun control and maybe make some changes. You have a right to a well armed and regulated militia. Maybe it's time to look at the regulation part? I know some folks are saying its too soon. For 18 children today it's already too late.

Taldor

Very sad news.

It seems this is becoming the norm in the States these days though.

Qadira

More on this

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I woke up this morning read the news and cried.

I live in Australia and my heart goes out to all of you in the US. We feel your tragedy all the way over here.

I do hope you guys take this chance to hold your families close. Tell them you love them.

I also hope you guys use this time to do some good for your nation and look at the state of mental health and gun control and maybe make some changes. You have a right to a well armed and regulated militia. Maybe it's time to look at the regulation part? I know some folks are saying its too soon. For 18 children today it's already too late.

20 kids, unfortunately. 18 at the school and two later died at the hospital.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


I also hope you guys use this time to do some good for your nation and look at the state of mental health and gun control and maybe make some changes. You have a right to a well armed and regulated militia. Maybe it's time to look at the regulation part? I know some folks are saying its too soon. For 18 children today it's already too late.

We have those. We also have this other thing where nutbags are convinced that anybody who caresses a trigger is a member of the militia and so covered.

Qadira

Samnell wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


I also hope you guys use this time to do some good for your nation and look at the state of mental health and gun control and maybe make some changes. You have a right to a well armed and regulated militia. Maybe it's time to look at the regulation part? I know some folks are saying its too soon. For 18 children today it's already too late.
We have those. We also have this other thing where nutbags are convinced that anybody who caresses a trigger is a member of the militia and so covered.

The right to self representation vs bring represented (poorly) by others will be the battle line for this.

Qadira

As a quick thought: Would a twenty feet high wall around the edge of the School with a security gate have stopped this?

Paizo Employee Project Manager

Given that this is a highly-emotionally-charged subject from several angles, please remember the posting guidelines and be civil to one another.

I'd recommend avoiding inflammatory names for people with different interpretations of the Constitution -- one can disagree with a point of view without name-calling, and it's likely to take the thread downhill fast. :-) Thanks!

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No. The gunman already had a connection to the school and got into the school after the doors were supposedly locked.
EDIT: @Yellowdingo

Taldor

HangarFlying wrote:

According to the CDC, there were 10,228 deaths due to alcohol impaired crashes in the US in 2010. They further state that 1.4 million drivers were arrested in the same year for driving under the influence of alcohol.

Furthermore, the CDC states that there were 32,885 deaths in motor vehicle accidents in 2010.

Shall we adopt your stance against firearms and apply it to alcohol and/or motor vehicles?

Ultimately, the problem is much much deeper than just guns and gun control.

Anyone caught drinking and driving should automatically loose their license. Period. There are no excuses. Trouble with drinking and driving is that for some reason people think they're exceptions.

But of course a car isn't designed to kill, nor is a bottle of alcohol, but guns are designed for exactly one purpose and they're extremely good at it. If guns were restricted or controlled it wouldn't end gun deaths, nor would it put an end to murder, but there would be less mass murder. Then again someone's right to own a firearm is probably more valuable then the lives of future mass murder victims.

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