|
Unreadable dice, people actually moving a die after it's been rolled, people doing fuzzy math on their hit points, never running out of smite evils, spells, potions, scrolls, wand charges. I've seen it all, and mostly... I don't care. Why? Because that's what those people need in order to have fun. I can still have fun as the GM, especially when they're cheating and still not that good. :-)
So sorry for adding to the derail, but I had to make a comment here...
So it is rare when I see cheating though I have, most of the time they cheat through dice but I have seen other forms.
Every cheater I have known may have done so for the benefit of their enjoyment but at the same time it was against the other players enjoyment.
A player cheating just pisses of other players which I don't care who you are your fun is not more important the the table as a whole.
I don't look for cheaters, but If you get caught cheating at my table you are gone if we are at a Con or will get a lecture and a chance for you to change your ways if we are at a local game (Not enough time usually for a lecture at a Con I leave that up to the organizer).
Back on Subject.
Audits - I do Audits all the time, rarely a full Audit. Usually I just check that the stats add up, they are counting weight and keeping track of consumables and ammo if needed and they have chronicle sheets and adding resources bought on them. I don't do audits to find cheaters, but to find mistakes. That takes less then a minute per character unless there is a mistake then I mention the mistake for the PC to correct if possible at the table. Improper use of chronicle sheets is a much larger issue and can't be done in a reasonable time at the table so I put that aside for now and re address it after the game and help the player fix the issue. or point him to the organizer to do so if the game ran long and I am at a convention.
Additional Resources and having the Books - This rule is not there to make sure everyone has the book and spending money at Paizo though that is a side affect of it. The rule is there to make sure the GM has access to the Non core rule if needed. I deal with this 2 different ways.
At Conventions I don't bring it up unless I don't know the rule of something they are using from an additional resource, then I ask them for the source to show me. If they don't have the source on hand I don't let them use it, even if they say they know the rule by heart. I explain why and we move on.
At Home or local games I don't bring it up unless I don't know the rule then I ask them if they have the source if they say Know I ask them if they own the source and they know the page, if they say yes I look at it on my Tablet since I own all the PDFs. I have a lot more time for this in this scenario so I don't require the player to have the source on hand only that they know the source and page number and they own the source. If they don't own the source then I don't allow them to use it, I explain why and we move on. This only happened once when I had a new player who used Herolabs as the source but did not actually own anything but the Core book. I explained HeroLabs is not a legal source and is known for errors anyway at times. He did get a bit upset because for some reason like everyone who buys herolabs and not the books they feel that if they spent the money on herolabs they should not have to spend it on the books... sigh...
|
|
I find that many of peoples' questions would be answered if they'd just RTFM.
And RTFAR and RTFFAQ. ;)
Edit: and RTFT
|
|
I'm still amazed that consumables aren't supposed to be tracked on chronicle sheets as used (items sold, value - used).
But that all fall under the old outlook. If players are going to cheat they are going to cheat. it's sad, but that is the case.
They don't have to be as far as I know, but I do know players that do so they can keep track.
I keep track during the game, replace anything that can be replaced and just reduce the numbers of those I can't (Wands) on my character sheet.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(3) the, yes, prideful flouting of the requirement to have legal copies of the Additional Resources or even the Core Assumption materials.Again, the core assumption is assumed. You don't need to police it and players don't actually need to own it. It's the additional resources that need to be presented at the table.
I think you're wrong about that. The core assumption - that players will actually own legal copies of at least the minimum materials - might mean that there's no need for you to insist that the books be presented at the table, but it doesn't mean players don't need to own the materials. That's been made pretty clear in the past - a player might get a free pass for a few sessions, but if they intend to play on a regular basis it is expected that they will eventually acquire their own copies. If a player informs you they don't actually own the book in question, you are in an awkward position, but they are technically not living up to the campaign requirements.
I'm not going to go looking for violations, but if somebody waves one under my nose I'm not going to deliberately close my eyes and ignore it.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
|
I read that as "the AC for you" will be impossible to hit.Ah, well, if it was that obvious, then I concede the point. Based on the post, I didn't think there was any evidence more than "always rolls 18-20" and "other GMs had same experience."
I still think that raising monster AC, though, is a poor reaction to a cheating player. Make them roll in the open, boot them or report them, but don't prejudice the other players at the table due to one player's poor behavior.
That still could lead to a TPK, depending on who is causing the issues and who is in the rest of the party. Even if it couldn't, though, you're still the GM and are supposed to be held to a higher standard.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Note that auditing is a duty of a GM at a store or convention game.
Quote page 31:
"As a Pathfinder Society Organized Play Game Master running a session at a convention or an in-store event, you have the following duties.
...
Look over each player’s character sheet and previous Chronicle sheets, quickly checking wealth, equipment, calculations, and so on."
|
I don't look over chronicle sheets before I start a game. A high tier table of level 8 players will have 21 chronicles each *minimum*. I don't have the time to thumb through 100 sheets of paper, checking for PFS number and signature, just to play the game.
Now, if someone claims this is their high level character, but is acting really unfamiliar with it, and something just seems off, I'll ask them about it after the game.
|
|
RE: buying your way to a better PC. In PFS it most certainly is possible.
Look at the spells in the Andoran book, not to mention some others which I have purchased and use. Some of the resources on the "additional resources list" would be must haves for any true power gamer.
Maybe that is by design, maybe not.
Of course, the chicken and the egg in this discussion for me is 100% due to scenarios like Dalsine and similar.
1) make the scenarios harder
2) kill some PCs
3) list some really nice powerful spells and items in obscure sourcebooks
4) remind everyone that in order to use said sources you must purchase them
5) profit
Some of it makes sense, especially from a business standpoint, but when we approach the level of a CCG I'm out. :P
|
Contributor
|
I oh-so-highly doubt your five point EVIL MASTER PLAN is at work, seriously.
You really think the Andoren spells are all that overpowered? At least one of 'em is available in one of the Ultimates, I think. The one with the flight of eagles is pretty cool, but the Pathfinders high enough level to cast it are few and far between, at least in my neck of the woods.
|
|
Both liberating command and suppress charms and compulsions are VERY useful low level spells and hold their own in HL combats. And that was but one example. There are several others but I am not going to post them here. I like using my ideas at tables before sharing them. :)
As far as the evil master plan goes, those are your words and I was being facetious.
I oh-so-highly doubt your five point EVIL MASTER PLAN is at work, seriously.
You really think the Andoren spells are all that overpowered? At least one of 'em is available in one of the Ultimates, I think. The one with the flight of eagles is pretty cool, but the Pathfinders high enough level to cast it are few and far between, at least in my neck of the woods.
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cool cool.
I still don't see it as pay-to-play, and even if it is, I dunno. I don't make use of intellectual property I haven't paid for unless it was offered by the makers and/or owners for free use.
I know you're coming at it from a different angle, though, and don't mean to suggest you think all this material should be free (which, for home games of course, some of it is in one form on the PRD).
Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring that players own resources in order to make use of them, and I personally find it deeply distasteful when people do (or attempt to). It's sort of like--hmmm, no, I'll say it's exactly like--saving up your chore money to buy a toy that your buddy gets by shoplifting.
|
|
Both liberating command and suppress charms and compulsions are VERY useful low level spells and hold their own in HL combats. And that was but one example. There are several others but I am not going to post them here. I like using my ideas at tables before sharing them. :)
As far as the evil master plan goes, those are your words and I was being facetious.
I oh-so-highly doubt your five point EVIL MASTER PLAN is at work, seriously.
You really think the Andoren spells are all that overpowered? At least one of 'em is available in one of the Ultimates, I think. The one with the flight of eagles is pretty cool, but the Pathfinders high enough level to cast it are few and far between, at least in my neck of the woods.
I agree that liberating command is really good. Someone saved my behind with it and now I have two different characters with it. Fortunately it got reprinted in Ultimate Combat so I didn't have to purchase the Andoran book. And thank god. That book has the andoran cooties.
(But small examples like liberating command aside, I've found that the large amount of splat books generally lets me build weirder characters, not necessarily more overpowered characters. My sorcerer is almost entirely core and he does perfectly well, but I would never have gotten to play with my drunken monk if I didn't get to use APG, Faiths of Purity, Gnomes of Golarion, Taldor, Echoes of Glory, UM and UC. Sure, you can't help but increase the power level slightly whenever you increase a new book, but each book opens up a whole new world of flavorful options, and honestly, that's the way it should be.)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I'll freely admit audting most of my characters would be a bear. They're a mix of GM credit and real time play (well except for Mayim, she's purely GM credit) so I have some items bought early on, then big items that I drop gold on from the GM credit. It's going to look weird. (Also bad about not writing down what sheet I bought stuff on.)
That said, I can explain everything. I know the builds are legal, since I've HeroLab, and I have all* of the chronical sheets. If I go to a friendly place, are you going to tell me I can't play Dex because I didn't write down which sheet he bought his mithral breastplate on? If I'm running a +32 to hit, then I expect to be called out, but for a clerical ("But I'm an inquisitor!" yells Dex) error, an item purchased on the wrong sheet, I can't play at your table?
When I GM, I assume people aren't cheating. I'll let them prove me otherwise. What's the worst that can happen? Characters don't die? If I want to see afterwards, I'll ask. If the person ducks out, I'll let my VC know.
As to dice... I use my Q-workshop Runelords dice (all 10 of 'em) when I play. They cause some confusion when I roll a 20 or max damage, but I've no qualms about showing that the high numbers are runes. I also have a couple sets of Koplow dice if someone has a snit.
I *won't* use my Second Darkness dice, since even I can't read them quickly.
*
|
Contributor
|
Oh, I don't know. I'm attracted to HeroLab, if only as a timesaver. My experience of it is just from playing with other folks who use it (and a little from interacting with the people who put it out, and they seem like standup folks).
The players who would be careful, knowledgeable, and fair about their characters are the same whether they're using it or using books and pencils (as I do) in my experience. And yeah, the players who are sloppy, ignorant (often willfully), and cheesed out about their characters find a way to do it with HeroLab from what I can tell.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't trust Hero Lab. To date I've never looked at a hero lab character that didn't have errors, some of them major errors. Many times on experienced, knowledgeable players who think because its hero lab its right.
really? I make sure to research pretty carefully to know everything on my character, Herolab is exceptionally good in my experience.
I have reported a decent number of bugs with it also, but it's usually just tooltips. ALSO it doesn't stop players from cheating it just gives them a little red diamond that says they are cheating, which can be ignored.
in most cases if you find something that is wrong on a herolab print-out, it's because the player ignored a warning.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All the HeroLab printouts I've seen are just so soulless and ugly.
Give me a photocopied character sheet template from the back of the core rulebook any day!
With 3B pencil marks on it, and eraser marks on the skills, BAB and hitpoints... that's the stuff.
And the little box with room for the character illustration too!
Extra points for asterisks in the skills and saves section.
Don't judge me!
|
Contributor
|
The one error that I know it makes, but which I was told by one of their developers is a bug they're aware of and is on their list to fix, is that it doesn't calculate the weight of the initial costless set of clothes as part of a characters weight carried.
This is important to me since I tend to usually be within a pound or two of medium encumbrance on most of my characters. ;)
|
|
Interesting. I have seen significantly more errors on non-herolab sheets. I will admit it's quite easy to make mistakes in herolab.
I think the most common herolab mistakes are made with people not correctly stuff when they do re-works or change their minds. Honestly accounting errors are a player's fault (and actually might be harder in herolab..). It's very easy to pay nothing or half for items if you don't know what you're doing. Honestly though, your chronicles should have the correct gold.
I think a "starting equipment" sheet needs to exist for every character, and any consumables used should be reported in the "gold spent" section as "used"
I regret not doing this up till now, but I really feel it should be a requirement. Just a sheet that has up to 150gp worth of stuff on it as starting equipment.
I've never reported it because I don't use Hero Lab my self.
How recent were the problems you cite above? There was a massive overhaul with extensive bug fixes that we completed a couple months ago. If these bugs were awhile back, you might find that they've been fixed by now.
The complexities of Pathfinder are extreme, with all sorts of conflicts and exceptions throughout the rules, so we rely on users to report bugs that slip through all of our testing. We make a point of fixing bugs when they are reported.
In fact, Hero Lab is significantly more accurate than the spreadsheet Paizo has been using in-house, which is why Paizo is in the process of adopting Hero Lab internally right now. That doesn't make Hero Lab perfect by any stretch, but we're constantly refining and updating it in an effort to achieve that goal.
All that being said, if we don't know about bugs, we can't fix them. :( It's certainly not your responsibility if you don't use Hero Lab, but please encourage any players who do to report bugs to us so we can get them fixed! :)
Thanks!
|
|
And many of these are actually on hero labs with their tablets, so I know the mistakes are actually on hero lab.
This is unlikely to the point of being nearly impossible. Hero Lab is not available for tablets yet. There is hopefully going to be a character-sheet-only version launching in the next few weeks but it will be the first appearance on tablets and it will not handle the character-building calculations itself.
The only way they could accomplish this is to use a Remote Desktop software to access their home computer from their tablet at the gaming store. Which may occur occasionally, but I doubt that it has been the case in "many" of your experiences.
|
|
People make mistakes with pencil and paper, too. If they believe Hero Lab to be infallible, that's on them. It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
The nice thing about Hero Lab is that everything is in the same place, so it's relatively easy to do a quick audit at a glance. Not so much when it's scrawled on a sheet of notebook paper.
Also, for those who don't like the standard layout of the Hero Lab character sheet, you may want to check out some of the custom output options. I'm a huge fan of AncientOne's.
|
|
There were two guys at my table tonight using HeroLab character sheets on their tablets. I think they're static exported .pdfs that they're looking at maybe?
Well sure, it's the exact same as printing it out. But it's no more "on Hero Lab with a tablet" than the printout is "on Hero Lab with a piece of paper."
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, Hero Lab runs beautifully on my Samsung Ativ Windows 8 tablet. This is a full Windows 8 tablet, not an RT, and it runs desktop software. I use Herolab at the PFS table every week now, with paper printouts to show the GM and as backup in case power runs out.
As to the person who has never seen a Hero Lab character that was right, I have the opposite experience. When used correctly (it is a tool, after all), it produces far superior results and significantly faster. I wholeheartedly endorse it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, Hero Lab runs beautifully on my Samsung Ativ Windows 8 tablet. This is a full Windows 8 tablet, not an RT, and it runs desktop software.
First of all, thanks for the endorsement!
I think the important distinction here is that you're running the desktop version of Hero Lab on a desktop-caliber tablet computer. Those machines are comparatively very uncommon these days and not what most people think of when someone says "tablet". Most are thinking of iPads and Android tablets (and now Windows Surfaces). But the lines are blurring with devices like yours readily available, and that's only going to foster more confusion among users who haven't yet learned the sometimes subtle yet critical distinctions between the different platforms.
We're getting ready to wrap up the in-play character sheet version of Hero Lab, and we're striving to get it submitted to the AppStore in the next few weeks. After that, we'll continue to get full Hero Lab functionality implemented on the iPad.
And before anyone starts asking, we'll provide an update in our monthly newsletter at the end of December. So stay tuned for that. :)
|
|
I don't understand the hate for the default sheet. I have no problems with it.
It doesn't have enough room for a characters abilities, and it sucks at prioritizing which ones get printed. For example if i have a druid it will list what weapons a druid is proficient with (which having druid on the character more or less already specifies) and has no room left for feats.
|
|
Rinaldo has it correct. Hero Lab is a tool, which means there is human input required to make it work correctly. It's not magic, and it's not perfect, but it does make some things easier.
As a player - I usually punch in my characters in SECOND to building them on paper to double check my math. Things like remembering small characters get + to stealth are easy to forget. Or making sure I remembered to add that +1 to attack from my MWK weapon.
As a GM - applying templates to creatures. Sometimes scenarios call for quick templating, and I will be the first to admit that I am not yet to the point in my GMing experience to do all of them "on the fly". HL is a great tool to stat these up quickly and spit them out.
|
Contributor
|
As a player - I usually punch in my characters in SECOND to building them on paper to double check my math. Things like remembering small characters get + to stealth are easy to forget. Or making sure I remembered to add that +1 to attack from my MWK weapon.
This is why I want to get it, largely. I'm still not confident I'm figuring the damage right when my 1st level ranger with STR 16 power attacks with his masterwork greatsword.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
As a player - I usually punch in my characters in SECOND to building them on paper to double check my math. Things like remembering small characters get + to stealth are easy to forget. Or making sure I remembered to add that +1 to attack from my MWK weapon.This is why I want to get it, largely. I'm still not confident I'm figuring the damage right when my 1st level ranger with STR 16 power attacks with his masterwork greatsword.
2d6+7
|
Contributor
|
2d6+7Five minutes flat. ;)Sure, if you count the time it took for me to even discover your post in the first place. ;)
Meanwhile, your attack bonus is +4 (though if you have Furious Focus, that'll be +5).
Jiggy E. Coyote, Super-Genius.
What I have on my PFS character sheet for Silas in the five weapon slots is:
masterwork greatsword | +5 attack | 2d6+4 damage
masterwork greatsword (power attack) | +4 attack| 2d6+7 damage
silvered morningstar (wielding two-handed) | +4 attack | 1d8+3 damage
silvered morningstar (wielding two-handed, power attack) | +3 attack | 1d8+6 damage
light crossbow | +3 attack [DEX is 14] | 1d8 damage
He made second level last night, but he's taking it as his first bard level, so I don't think those numbers will change.
And once I get HeroLab this will all be the click of a button! (Or will be, after I do it all by hand first, for I am old.)