Black Blade Enhancement


Rules Questions


Straight to the point, and this is probably a no-brainer but I can't find a definitive answer so I figure I'll ask. A Black Blade gains an enhancement bonus as the Bladebound Magus gains levels, but can you enchant other effects onto the Black Blade?

For a Magus I'm sure everyone is wondering why the heck I would want to do that. Answer is I was thinking of giving the elven Spell Dancer archetype a try as well, but I'm concerned about giving up the ability to add enhancements to my weapon. So insight is welcome and if I can indeed enchant something like bane onto the Black Blade that would just be awesome.

Scarab Sages

Dot.


It's a hotly debated question. Don't be surprised if this turns into a long thread with people calling for FAQ rulings.

Basically there are two sides to this and it isn't clear cut at all. Check with your GM (which is not a satisfying answer, I know...).


Eragar wrote:
Dot.

Dot?

Sean Mahoney wrote:

It's a hotly debated question. Don't be surprised if this turns into a long thread with people calling for FAQ rulings.

Basically there are two sides to this and it isn't clear cut at all. Check with your GM (which is not a satisfying answer, I know...).

Thank you for the answer. Yeah not a very satisfying one, but such is the nature of debated questions. Thank you for giving one at least :) Will see what comes out of any more replies too.

Grand Lodge

I doubt you can, since there is no defined price for adding enhancements to it, although a home-game GM could work it out with you.

For general use, the Magus' Arcane Pool lets you add some of the most useful enhancements to his Black Blade, including, at 17th level and up, getting to the full +10 maximum enhancement ability.


kinevon wrote:

I doubt you can, since there is no defined price for adding enhancements to it, although a home-game GM could work it out with you.

For general use, the Magus' Arcane Pool lets you add some of the most useful enhancements to his Black Blade, including, at 17th level and up, getting to the full +10 maximum enhancement ability.

While this is quite true, elven Spell Dancer gives up the ability to add enhancements to a Magus' weapon using Arcane Pool.

Grand Lodge

Since both archetypes modify the Arcane Pool, it is entirely possible that they weren't designed to be stacked.

Grand Lodge

If your Blackblade is a Klar, then there should be no debate about adding shield enchantments.


kinevon wrote:
Since both archetypes modify the Arcane Pool, it is entirely possible that they weren't designed to be stacked.

They do still stack. Bladebound modifies the Arcane Pool, and Spell Dancer only trades the ability to use the pool to enhance a weapon. Gonna have to use spellstrike and high mobility to deliver precision damage I think, and hope for crits using a Scimitar with improved crit.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
If your Blackblade is a Klar, then there should be no debate about adding shield enchantments.

Can you use a Klar for a Black Blade? Bladebound says it's either a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a swordcane, and the Klar as a weapon says its treated as an attack with shield spikes.

Grand Lodge

Klar is a One-handed weapon that deals slashing damage.

Pistol Cane Sword is an option as well.


Why is this a "hotly debated issue"?

I see absolutely nothing in the rules that state it cannot be enhanced. In fact, the RAW seems to support enhancement. "treated as a masterwork weapon of it's kind".

What are people saying that would require an FAQ or clarification at all?

Is this about the enhancement limitations? Say you put a +2 enhancement on it, it would only ever be a +3 from levelling, because you decided to gimp it with your Bane enhancement. Any bonus from leveling beyond the +3 (making the total a +5) would be nullified.

That part certainly isn't in the RAW, I'm wondering if that's the issue...because that's how I'd handle it as a DM. I might give the PC the choice of whether to dump the static enhancement and take the leveling enhancement when it applies.

Either way, there's nothing in any book that states a Black Blade cannot be enhanced normally.

Grand Lodge

Barry Armstrong wrote:
Why is this a "hotly debated issue"?

This question is an often asked question amongst the boards.

Then again, you will be debating whether or not the subject should be debated.


A good general rule to go by when interpreting ambiguous or unclear rules, is to take the path which causes less exceptions, the path that causes less ambiguity (since that's what we're trying to avoid), or avoid a path which encourages counter-intuitive behavior.

In this case, allowing the black blade to be enchanted causes all kinds of exceptions and odd behavior:

Ego

Quote:
A black blade starts with an ego of 5, and that ego increases as the blade becomes more powerful... Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a black blade has a nonstandard ego progression.

There are no rules in the intelligent item section to explain what the ego increase of adding a +1 enchant to a weapon are. What there is, is rules for increasing the ego based on the new value of the weapon. Adding a +1 enchant could add anywhere from 0 ego (going from a +5 to a +6 weapon) to 4 ego (going from a +9 to a +10). The black blade has no defined base value, and its ego goes up in a progression that's entirely unrelated to its enhancement bonus. Therefore, there's no way to tell what adding an enhancement bonus would do to a black blade's ego. This leads to either ambiguity ("What's the new ego? I don't know how to calculate it.") or the counter-intuitive ruling that black blade ego does not go up as the weapon gets more enchants on it ("I can add enhancement bonuses to my blade because it's like a regular magic item, but the ego doesn't go up because it's not like a regular magic item").

Cost & leveling up
How much should an enchantment cost? Unlike what was pointed out above, the blade doesn't become masterwork in the hands of anyone but the magus - it just acts like it (i.e. it refuses to even be magically sharp, let alone use any other power). So we have to assume that it would be enchanted from whatever the current bonus is. Especially if you're doing the enchanting yourself. This leads to the entirely counter-intuitive result that it's cheaper to add keen as a 4th level character than it is as a 5th level one. So if you're 100 gold short, you're better off refusing to level up until you get that last little bit, get it enchanted, and then level. (There's no rule that I'm aware of which says you have to level the moment you get enough xp.)

"Overloading" enchantments
Based on the FAQ entry/errata that you can't ever go above a +10 bonus on a weapon, allowing the magus to enchant the blade means you have to figure out what happens if they reach a total of +10 at 16th level, then level to 17. With a paladin's divine bond (or any other temporary addition), you need to decide as a GM whether it overwrites some enchantments or whether points are just wasted. But either way, it's only a temporary change. With a black blade, you're permanently losing either part of your class feature (Enhancement bonus caps when the blade is "full") or the sizeable chunk of money you invested in enchanting it (and not even getting the half price back from selling it that fighters do).

In short, allowing the black blade to be enchanted causes a number of issues, ambiguities, and counter-intuitive behavior, which can all be resolved by resolving the initial ambiguity in the other direction. Obviously, if Paizo releases some errata to say that the blade can be enchanted, that takes precedence over the "better route" - but they'll have to address all the above issues first.

Another post I've made on the subject:

Virtua Monk wrote:

I don't see the two sets of rules for intelligent items as being in conflict. The progression of the black black uses Table: Black Blade Progression to determine Ego, the magical enhancement would use the Table: Base Magic Item Value and Ego Modifier. The key here is that the gp value adds a modifier not an ego score to the weapon.

Thus, if a black blade with an ego of 5 gets an enhancement worth 2000gp, the black blade's ego would be bumped up to 6. This is identical to the base ability stat progression of +1 every 4 levels. You can still use manuals (or other methods) to bump the stat permanently.

The problem with this line of thought is: What's the base value for a black blade? If it's worth 0gp, adding a +1 enchant for 2000gp would give it a +1. But if the base value is 10,000, adding a +1 enchant for 2000gp won't have any effect on the ego.

Intelligent magic item stats also start at 10/10/10, and go up to 20 from there, gaining a point of ego for each point of stat modifier. But the Black Blade starts at 11/7/7, which is flat out impossible under the intelligent item rules (and should provide a -4 ego modifer). Two levels later, it's at 12/8/8, which should grant +3 ego over where it started, and it does... but that means that the Energy attunement ability doesn't provide any ego. But two levels later, it goes up to 13/9/9, which shouldn't grant any ego, but it gains two more. So, to quote it: "Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a black blade has a nonstandard ego progression."

This means you can't apply any standard ego modifiers to it. They don't behave normally. There are no rules for how to modify the ego if you add any of the usual intelligent item properties. There are no rules for how to modify the ego if you add any other weapon properties. Therefore, there's only two possible conclusions:
1) Modifying a black blade does not affect it's ego at all.
2) Modifying a black blade is not possible.

The first is absurd. That leaves only the second option as a reasonable conclusion.

It's entirely feasible to rule otherwise for your home game, and the RAW doesn't explicitly say one way or the other, but I don't think anyone can argue that it makes sense to let it be enchantable.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Then again, you will be debating whether or not the subject should be debated.

Unnecessary.

Bobson, you have some good info there. But since it specifically says a Black Blade uses non-standard ego progression rules, I'd have to assume that they mean that the chart provided is the only way the blade progresses it's ego. Any "standard" ego rules are non-applicable.

For instance, if you decide to put a +2 enhancement bonus on your Black Blade, and it already has +3 from leveling, I would use the stats as a +5 Black Blade on the chart, and simply ignore the bonus from further leveling (because it's already capped out). All the extra "abilities" would still apply at their normal level range.

That's simply how I see it, and how I would rule it. Others may feel differently. I would definitely say enhancing your Black Blade certainly limits things, but I can't see anything that says you specifically cannot do it.

However, I do now see why it is a hotly contested issue.


Kaoshin wrote:
They do still stack. Bladebound modifies the Arcane Pool, and Spell Dancer only trades the ability to use the pool to enhance a weapon.

Arcane Pool (Su): "At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute."

Spell Dance (Su): "This ability replaces the magus's ability to expend points from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding magic bonuses for 1 minute."

I don't see how replacing one aspect of a class feature is not modifying it. Arcane Pool lets you do something, Spell Dance changes that. Thus, Arcane Pool is modified.

Grand Lodge

Can a person add enhancements to any other intelligent or specific ( i.e. Holy Avenger) weapons?


Bobson, unless there has been an errata, the blade had to start out as a masterwork weapon, it doesn't become one for a Magus (1st print of ultimate Magic). I would rule at my home games can only had magic abilities (dancing, flaming, vorporal, etc) not straight enchantments. But I can see the issues you present. As far as I know there is no way to not lvl up when xp is high enough, unless you have to do the training bit (which some dms do), but the blade like a familiar would still grow in power independently.


And in that ruling say blades ability add on can not be above +5 total (so you don't get cheep epic weapons).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Black Blade Enhancement All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.