Goblin Squad Member
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I don't understand how they intend this bounty system to play out in character. No governing body (certainly no upstanding body) would allow a bounty to be placed based upon the hearsay of one individual. If you are murdered in the wilderness and no one else was around, even if you resurrect to tell the tale, it's the word of one man (or woman) who could easily be lying for personal reasons.
I am of the mind that certain conditions surrounding murders in the game (outside of lawful jurisdiction, no other eye witnesses, something of that sort) should activate a separate system; some kind of REVENGE system that would allow you, and whatever posse you drum up, to attack the individual without consequence (or mitigated consequence in the alignment/reputation/criminal flag domains). Maybe it would require the vengeful attack to occur in a similarly lawless region as the initial affront, maybe not. But once you have exacted revenge (or failed), the system deactivates and you are left to enjoy (or wallow in) the result.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, glad to have you interacting with the community on these matters. Would love to have more input from you in the new thread about bounties and narrowing down what you see as griefing behavior.
It seems nitpicky, but if we have a neurotically accurate idea of what you see as griefing then we can make suggestions that will make more sense to you about how to better tailor this bounty system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Beilian Trask - it's magic.....
Sure.
I poorly misrepresented my point. I didn't mean 'let's bring realism into a world of magic and monsters'. Though that's how it came out.
I meant, 'here is a suggestion for an alternative system that might be a cool way of bringing something that approximates real world phenomenology into Golarion for a more immersive experience'.
Edit: real world = tabletop phenomenology. my bad, its late.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Before the snarky bounty debate, I asked:
...did they mention if one can un-thread an item? If you only get a limited number throughout your career, and you can't release your claim to an item (or if the item becomes irreparably broken) then it seems like they would end up being conserved to the point that they're practically out of the game until you've capstoned a path.
So basically, are threads consumable, such that you are wasting them to put them on anything at low power levels, or are they a personal investiture of power that can be taken back off an item if you decide to get rid of it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar, my understanding is that you will have a set number of Threads that you can re-apply to different gear if you choose. You'll probably have to be in a state and location that also allows you to change your Ability Bar.
If a low-level character gets his hands on a high-level weapon, he will probably have to expend most of his threads to keep it, meaning the rest of his gear will be lootable.
That makes it sound to me like we'll be able to Thread the new gear we find.
Characters earn more threads as they advance in level, but they gain threads more slowly than they gain level-appropriate gear.
That makes it sound like there's a fixed number based on your "level". Although it's not stated explicitly, I think it's safe to assume that Threads are not permanently attached to gear. If it were, and characters gained Threads more slowly than they gained level-appropriate gear, then they would quickly have no Threads left.
Goblinworks Founder
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@Ryan
What do you plan to have in place to stop Player Killers from just running around naked and killing, therefore having no risk to themselves? I love the concept in the blog, both with encumbrance and with the looting itself providing a risk/reward to us, but as soon as I read the blog I thought to myself "What would one of those annoying RPK types do to exploit this in their favour?".
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan
What do you plan to have in place to stop Player Killers from just running around naked and killing, therefore having no risk to themselves? I love the concept in the blog, both with encumbrance and with the looting itself providing a risk/reward to us, but as soon as I read the blog I thought to myself "What would one of those annoying RPK types do to exploit this in their favour?".
A player's power falls under two categories
1. Badges/Skills2. Equipment
Equipment plays a major role in a players 'power'. I highly doubt it will be possible for naked rampages. Even if they are masters of unarmed combat, game balance dictates that there must be a 'equipped' item for unarmed combat, that you can lose, otherwise everyone will grief with unarmed combat.
If there is any naked PKing it will probably only work a few times. Once your rep is low enough, you get killed on sight by NPC's in the only area you can hunt people in this fashion(starting zones). Everywhere else people have beyond basic gear that is more than a match for you with no gear.
If GW does things right(in my eyes) you will not be able to thread everything you use in combat, I would like to see 25%new/50%average/75%veteran loss of effectiveness if you are only carrying what you can thread. This would make it so someone wanting zero item loss operates at a diminished capacity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the risk of showing my ignorance of MMOs (this one is the first I have seriously had an interest in playing) is there an easy way to distinguish NPCs from players before one interacts with the other? It seems that the easiest way for a PK to operate is to spoof being an NPC, to be attacked by a player, then taking them out. Also seems a good way to be a paid hit man.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Harad
Generally their names are labelled different IE players have a red name or blue name or something and then NPC's have a green name.
Although depending on how they handle names and disguise and the like it could be possible that NPC's have names auto visible to players where players only have names visible to players when they are formally introduced or named by the player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the risk of showing my ignorance of MMOs (this one is the first I have seriously had an interest in playing) is there an easy way to distinguish NPCs from players before one interacts with the other? It seems that the easiest way for a PK to operate is to spoof being an NPC, to be attacked by a player, then taking them out. Also seems a good way to be a paid hit man.
Until we develop an AI that can pass a Turing Test, we'll be able to tell. Most MMO's make it easier than that, though. For example, clicking on a player might give an option to add them to your friend list, while an NPC couldn't be added.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Harad
Generally their names are labelled different IE players have a red name or blue name or something and then NPC's have a green name.
Although depending on how they handle names and disguise and the like it could be possible that NPC's have names auto visible to players where players only have names visible to players when they are formally introduced or named by the player.
Would there be an option to always have one's name visible? I'm not only thinking of the spoofing, but if you build your character as a maker, you might want your reputation as a maker to draw potential customers if your name was on for everyone. Like a celebrity walking the street (no pun intended) they could easily be recognized on sight. That may not be apparent if we initially have a limited ability to alter our avatar appearance.
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Goblinworks Founder
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At the risk of showing my ignorance of MMOs (this one is the first I have seriously had an interest in playing) is there an easy way to distinguish NPCs from players before one interacts with the other? It seems that the easiest way for a PK to operate is to spoof being an NPC, to be attacked by a player, then taking them out. Also seems a good way to be a paid hit man.
You can generally tell them apart from the name. Imagine walking down an alleyway and you see two people up ahead, one is named Galanthor and the other is named Gankasaurus. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And the bounty system as it currently exists is, in my mind, overly harsh to apply to those conditions.
Not if you just issue a bounty once, no. But the way the blog describes it as something that can go on forever and have you constantly on the run no matter how many times you've already been punished is crazy.
So, a griefer being killed is punishment to them? I thought they were supposed to like combat, pvp and all that fighting stuff. If anything it should be a boon as they are, as long as the reporter has money, guaranteed to be hunted and have that added risk vs. reward excitement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@V'rel depends what you mean by griefing. If we look at the following continuum, Goblinworks is presently aiming to treat all point below the first three as the same, which seems absurd for a game advertised as open PvP:
-Two players playing patty-cake in a lawful good settlement?
-Fighting in a war.
-Hunting bounties
-assassinating evil targets
-Randomly killing players out in the wilderness for loot.
-assassinating good targets
-Killing new players as they leave controlled territory (entering wilderness)
-Repeatedly killing the same players out in the wilderness, not for the loot
-Repeatedly killing the same players as they leave controlled territory (entering wilderness)
-Repeatedly killing the same new players as they leave controlled territory (entering wilderness)
-Killing new players outside of town, in lawful areas.
-Running around at the newbie spawn point and killing new players as they enter the game for the first time.
-Running around at the newbie spawn point and assassinating new players as they enter the game for the first time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@V'rel depends what you mean by griefing. If we look at the following continuum, Goblinworks is presently aiming to treat all point below the first three as the same, which seems absurd for a game advertised as open PvP:
...
Just because it is advertised as open PvP doesn't mean it is open Jack Donkey too. A player has the option to attack a person in the ways you listed. That doesn't mean they are free from consequence.
1) The Consequences should matter;
2) The Consequences should seem a bit unfair because they are the result to breaking socially accepted laws
3) Deviant behavior, as generally defined by a given society, should not be encouraged or made glamorous except in Deviant societies.*
I just find it odd that folks who would engage in said deviant behavior wouldn't expect there to be harsh punishment for their actions. It should be considered part of the territory.
*Based on the absolute definitions of Good vs Evil in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's like a society making laws that give the exact same penalties for not paying a debt, theft, and murder.
Actually, I think it's more like a society making laws that give the exact same penalties for killing someone because of their race, killing someone because they pissed you off, or killing someone just for the hell of it...
At the risk of showing my ignorance of MMOs (this one is the first I have seriously had an interest in playing) is there an easy way to distinguish NPCs from players before one interacts with the other? It seems that the easiest way for a PK to operate is to spoof being an NPC, to be attacked by a player, then taking them out. Also seems a good way to be a paid hit man.Until we develop an AI that can pass a Turing Test, we'll be able to tell.
Actually, that would only work in one direction. If a Human Being were actively trying to appear to be an AI, they would probably stand a pretty decent chance of fooling us.
I have actually been asking for quite some time for there to not be obvious differences between NPCs and PCs precisely so that a PC could pretend to be an NPC.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't see a difference between PvP choosing random targets for the same of wealth versus specifically targeting the same person over and over versus taking out newbs at the spawn point?
It's not clear whom you're addressing.
Personally, I don't think there's a lot of difference between killing a random stranger for $40, killing a 10 year old girl on her way home from school, and killing your boss because he's been making you feel worthless for years, and I don't have the slightest problem with the punishment being the same for all of those cases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't see a difference between PvP choosing random targets for the same of wealth versus specifically targeting the same person over and over versus taking out newbs at the spawn point?
Really?!
No, I really don't. They are the same base deviant* behavior. That said I fully believe a player should be able to carryout either or, but I'm not going to whitewash or champion one as being better or more wholesome than the other.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... If a Human Being were actively trying to appear to be an AI, they would probably stand a pretty decent chance of fooling us.
I have actually been asking for quite some time for there to not be obvious differences between NPCs and PCs precisely so that a PC could pretend to be an NPC.
Along that tract, in a player settlement will there be the option for NPCs? (Again, this may have been covered in another thread. If so, please provide link.) If the player settlement were able to hire NPCs (certainly at the start of Beta where there may not be a plethora of skilled Player craftspeople) then spying becomes viable game play. In war spy's are a necessity. Depending on the disguise/alter self capabilities of the system, an interesting character development option would be to spy for your nation.
By the way, will there be alignment/reputation difficulties for player settlements as I seem to remember for NPC settlements? That would possibly negate this scenario.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Frankly, I'm still trying to understand how having a perpetual Bounty on your head is so terrible. If you're running around in the wilderness killing other players randomly, you should expect that you will develop a reputation (totally unrelated to any game mechanics) that will make you a hunted man. What does it matter to you whether or not the person hunting you gets paid for it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@V'rel if you don't see the difference, it baffles me, but that's the way you see it. Whatever.
@Nihimon you're relating it to real world good and evil. Now try again in the context of a world where resurrection is handed out like candy.
And you're next comment has the assumption that it's a habit, and that's the problem: the same penalty is being applied to one time offenders and habitual PKers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the real world, killing is killing, yes. But in a world overflowing with resurrection, no.
It's not a matter of having resurrection or not. If player A punches player B in the face and then hands them a cookie, Player B, though he/she may love cookies, is still going to be pained from the right cross they just took.
So yeah, a person may resurrect, but they still have to deal with the shock of being murdered and quite possibly having some of their stuff taken. That sense of being wronged persists.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Along that tract, in a player settlement will there be the option for NPCs? (Again, this may have been covered in another thread. If so, please provide link.)
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by an "option for NPCs". In general, the vast majority of NPCs you see will be mobs. There will probably be some quest-givers and flavor NPCs in the three NPC Settlements, but I think it's going to be rare that you see an NPC in a Player Settlement.
From Kingdom Come, Kingdom Go:
You have to imagine that along with the characters who live in a Settlement, most of the population are Common Folk - the "sims" of Pathfinder Online, who you never see, but have a huge impact on the world around them.
Butchers, Bakers and Candlestick Makers is probably the best blog to read to learn more.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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This is all going back to the bounty system. I don't think there's a question of whether or not there should be a bounty system for killing a player randomly. However there should be limit for the bounty system. As an example, a lawful good character randomly killing a chaotic character should still have the opportunity to have a bounty placed on them by the chaotic player because they were randomly killed.
I.e. they didn't have a pre-existing flag of attacker or criminal et cetera.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a person who has to deal with the shock of being murdered and then resurrected once is not dealing with anywhere near the same shock of someone who is constantly being hounded and killed over and over by the same person.
Again, a consequence of their deviant* actions. I don't feel any sorrow for them as they knew society's rules and chose to break them. That to me is consent to the repercussions of the socially accepted laws of the land. Going easy on them or providing circumstances that encourage them to do it again would be counter to law and good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Someone might tell the police sometimes: I'm ok with that. The police always find out instantly, no matter how remote the crime scene: that's silly.As stated before, there is always a witness because the victim is resurrected.
As stated before, people can wear masks. So witness, shmitness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a person who has to deal with the shock of being murdered and then resurrected once is not dealing with anywhere near the same shock of someone who is constantly being hounded and killed over and over by the same person.Again, a consequence of their deviant* actions. I don't feel any sorrow for them as they knew society's rules and chose to break them. That to me is consent to the repercussions of the socially accepted laws of the land. Going easy on them or providing circumstances that encourage them to do it again would be counter to law and good.
Alright, so we're clear on your stance: anyone playing anything but a lawful good play style needs to be treated like the absolute worst garbage possible. Gotcha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alright, so we're clear on your stance: anyone playing anything but a lawful good play style needs to be treated like the absolute worst garbage possible. Gotcha.And a person who has to deal with the shock of being murdered and then resurrected once is not dealing with anywhere near the same shock of someone who is constantly being hounded and killed over and over by the same person.Again, a consequence of their deviant* actions. I don't feel any sorrow for them as they knew society's rules and chose to break them. That to me is consent to the repercussions of the socially accepted laws of the land. Going easy on them or providing circumstances that encourage them to do it again would be counter to law and good.
Now Blaeringr, I didn't say that. Come on now. I myself don't intend to play LG. Just being objective laws are their to punish deviant* behavior, not encourage it.
I guess we are done discussing this then. Thanks for the chat! :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nobody suggested any encouragement, just degrees of punishment to match degrees of deviance. That was explained to you and you objected. If that's not what you actually meant, then you're just being stubborn about whatever point you think you're making.
Wait, are we done? Your last post made it seem like you were through with talking with me. It seemed a little exasperated.
Okay, just like lying by omission, lax laws or laws with no teeth encourage deviant* behavior. Sure, it may not be blatant proactive prodding, but it is pushing nonetheless.
Again, you may see degrees in your example, I do not. Just as Nihimon and another pointed out. We three see just plain ole murder, as was explained to you.
Point: Murder or deviant* behavior shouldn't be encouraged by lax laws in places where that type behavior isn't wanted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you may not directly admit that your stance is "anyone playing anything but a lawful good play style needs to be treated like the absolute worst garbage possible", but that's only because you don't see the very obvious differences in degrees. So from the perspective of anyone who can see those degrees, that's your stance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, I am wading through the Player-Created Buildings and Structures threads (fighting off lung crud gives me some down time). I can see (no pun intended) what you mean about the invisible background populous. The "spy as NPC" in a settlement question is about how player settlements are going to respond to players in that settlement, but not of that settlement. It seems that auto-reaction mechanics will be in play when a player with conflicting alignment/reputation issues tries to enter an NPC settlement. Will that be true of player settlements?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is indeed what "lawless" means. But Ryan has decided we were all just making assumptions to read it that way. Whatever the case is, they've settled their policy that bounties can indeed reach into the lawless wilderness.Just as a point of clarification. If you go out in the middle of the woods somewhere and kill someone, then go back to a city and tell the police you killed someone in the middle of the woods you would still be arrested.
Even though there isn't someone there to directly enforce the laws doesn't mean that the area of land you killed someone in is devoid of laws.
Where as if you had a settlement that controls a chunk of land and that settlement specifically did not have laws against killing someone (IE a Chaotic Evil settlement) this is truly lawless in regards to murder, since there isn't a law specifically against it.
Not to be too pedantic, but in order for there to be laws there most be some lawfull authority that claims or exerts jurisdiction over said area. While modern day planet earth may have nearly every square inch of land claimed by some government this is not neccesarly true for a frontier area in a fantasy world.
When Blaeringr say "wilderness" in this context what he is actualy saying (I presume) is not simply a patch of woods but a Hex which no Player or NPC settlement has claimed. By definition such a place would be "lawless" since there is no lawfull authority which exerts a territorial claim of jurisdiction over it.
Laws are not neccesarly determined by enforcment but by Sovereignty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If that's not what you actually meant, then you're just being stubborn about whatever point you think you're making.Actually that's pretty much the Pot and the Kettle on your part from my observations over the last eighteen hours or so.
If you're calling me stubborn, then we agree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you may not directly admit that your stance is "anyone playing anything but a lawful good play style needs to be treated like the absolute worst garbage possible", but that's only because you don't see the very obvious differences in degrees. So from the perspective of anyone who can see those degrees, that's your stance.
So, then, from the perception of those who see murder as murder, your stance is you want lax laws as to passively encourage continuous deviant* behavior.
Cool. I guess stances are cleared up now. Interesting.
Anyway, I've got to go make a couple of Warhammer Fantasy army lists for some gaming tonight. Take care!
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Elth - the classic problem with naked PK is that it remains a viable tactic over a long period of time.
What we want to do is create a feedback loop where the more you do that, the harder it becomes to do it again, and eventually it becomes so hard that the PKer abandons the tactic.
If that feedback loop operates swiftly enough then the average PK ganker who is just in it for the lulz won't get enough positive reinforcement to do it at all and the problem stops before it starts.
There's no one tactic that makes that happen. It has to be a layered approach.
Our layers are:
Flagging: If you get a flag (a state-condition with some meaningful in-game effect) that lets other characters kill you without penalty, then your character becomes a target for all the people who want to do PvP but who don't want negative consequences. In other words, you become their content.
Security: In certain areas NPCs will spawn, move rapidly to your location, and kill you. This is a graduated system - the closer you are to the "hub" of the secure area, the faster the response. At a certain point, the response is so fast that you die before you can kill your victim. And in some areas, it's so strong that you're prohibited from attacking your victim at all - if your victim can flee to one of those areas, they'll be safe.
Bounties: If someone kills you you can choose to put a bounty on that killer. Bounty systems have a lot of known flaws and we think we've worked around most of them with this tweak: You choose who can accept the bounty. That allows players to develop "bounty hunter" characters who are known to a) succeed, and b) not split the bounty with the target. We also envision a system where you can continue to re-instate the bounty as long as you wish, so if you are wealthy, and you get killed, you can make life miserable for your killer for a very, very long time.
Alignment: A character's alignment dictates what kind of Settlements they can belong to. A character's Settlement dictates what kind of training, resources, markets, allies, and potentially character abilities that character can use. The more grief you cause, the worse your alignment, and eventually you'll only be able to access the worst sort of Settlement. That will have a direct influence on your character's relative power vs. other characters of a similar age.
Distance: Your character will respawn at a designated place when it dies. As your alignment worsens you'll find the selection of places where you can respawn becoming more and more limited, and those places are likely to be further and further from the potential targets that you've selected. That means that you'll have to traverse a lot of distance to get back to wherever it is that you're trying to hunt, and that exposes you to the danger of moving through the game world without a lot of gear to help you survive.
We also don't intend to let characters have any real PvP capabilities "naked". You'll have to wear some kind of protection, have to use some kind of consumable, and generally be burning economic assets of some kind when you fight other players. So there will always be a cost to engage in PvP. You won't be able to run up to a character wearing nothing and stab your target to death with a newbie dagger.
Also there is a layered series of "defenses" as well.
Running Away: This is a tactic that you have to master. When you detect hostile forces in the area you're in, if you're not prepared to deal with them, you need to bug out. If you flee before they engage you, it will be highly likely (maybe "certain" but I'm wary of that term) that you can escape before combat begins.
Calling for Help: Everyone in Pathfinder Online is going to swiftly figure out that being a lone wolf is really, really hard. Being a part of a social organization is the best way to make progress. So when you get into trouble you should be able to call on allies. The arrival of reinforcements can rapidly shift a battle in your favor. Being a part of an organized, coordinated, group with good communications is going to be a huge asset.
We're Watching: If someone is causing you grief, report that behavior. We'll take swift action if we decide that the person is misbehaving. Our justice will be swift, and arbitrary. Players will learn that they shouldn't try to figure out where the line is; there is no line. Bad behavior is in the eye of the beholder, and the eye is ours. (I should note that being killed by someone is not misbehavior. Misbehavior is intentionally inflicting emotional distress on another player without any in-game rationale.)
Death Isn't that Big a Deal: In a theme park game, you typically wear the very best armor and use the very best weapon you can afford/acquire. In a sandbox game, that's the wrong way to play. You should never leave a safe area with more than a faction of your character's net worth; maybe 10% is a good number. You should expect to die often and to lose what you're carrying. So you don't put your character's assets at risk to one or two setbacks. You get killed, you respawn, you re-equip, and then you choose what to do next. You might decide not to go back to wherever you got killed and instead go somewhere else. A trip through the dead book should not be seen as a requirement to go back and get whacked again. As the man said, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity. :)
I hope that's a helpful summary of our strategy.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon... It seems that auto-reaction mechanics will be in play when a player with conflicting alignment/reputation issues tries to enter an NPC settlement. Will that be true of player settlements?
My understanding is that Alignment determines which Player Settlements you can belong to, while Reputation determines which Player Settlements you can enter without being attacked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point, I see no feasible way to play a bandit. Crappy towns, crappy gear, crappy respawn, endless bounties, unable to trade with anyone, risk of getting wiped out by Good Companies...
Can anyone tell me how there could reasonably be enough bandits to even justify guards in this game? I think we need to tone down the automatic clobbering of bandits to an insane degree, and make the players work to keep the bandits down. Because by removing bandits we remove the content for the rest of us.