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Rogue with +1 light steel shield


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


If a rogue want to use a +1 light steel shield, what would be the consecuences?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If he doesn't take Shield Proficiency, he takes the armor check penalty (-1) on attack rolls. The same is true for using medium or heavy armor without being proficient.


There would be no consequences if he got a +1 Buckler right?

Liberty's Edge

Big Lemon wrote:
If he doesn't take Shield Proficiency, he takes the armor check penalty (-1) on attack rolls. The same is true for using medium or heavy armor without being proficient.

A +1 light steel shield is also masterwork, so no ACP.

There are no particular negative consequences for a rogue to use a +1 light steel shield. Go for it.


The only drawback of a +1 light steel shield is you have limited use of the hand the shield is in. A +1 buckler is a better choice, unless there is something that specifically requires you to use a light shield. You can't shield bash with a buckler, though.


Thank you for the advice, the +1 light shield was found on Black Fang Dungeon and the rogue keep it to himself.

If he tries to use the bow. Does he should remove the shield first?


He is unable to use a bow and a light shield at the same time.

He can use a bow and a buckler, though.


But he'll either be able to attack with the bow or defend with the buckler. You can't do both in the same round because you need to be able to move the buckler into incoming blows which you cannot do if you are firing arrows.


He can't use improved shield bash because he needs shield prof as a prerequisite (but I think a TWF shield bash rogue build would be cool)

However if he was to shield bash with it, he would take a non weapon proficiency penalty to attack. (like if he wanted to hit a skeleton, because of the DR)

Liberty's Edge

Pendagast wrote:

He can't use improved shield bash because he needs shield prof as a prerequisite (but I think a TWF shield bash rogue build would be cool)

However if he was to shield bash with it, he would take a non weapon proficiency penalty to attack. (like if he wanted to hit a skeleton, because of the DR)

Keep in mind that the nonprof penalty is based on ACP. Since this shield is a masterwork light shield (all magical shields are masterwork), it should have an ACP of 0. In other words: effectively no penalty.

You are right about the Improved Shield Bash feat, though. He would have to blow two feats (Prof. + Shield Bash) to be able to bash without losing the AC benefit.


wait so how do you determine non proficient penalty of say a sword? by it's ACP?

No.

When used as a weapon, it follows weapon rules.

The ACP refers to attacking AT all while using the shield, so if he had a shield he is not proficient with and it is not masterwork, he would suffer the ACP on ALL his attacks (like with his short sword) an additional non-prof penalty would apply if trying to use the shield it's self as a weapon.


Quote:
Keep in mind that the nonprof penalty is based on ACP. Since this shield is a masterwork light shield (all magical shields are masterwork), it should have an ACP of 0. In other words: effectively no penalty.

When wielding it as a shield, you are right. But when bashing with it, its a weapon. And weapon non-proficiency penalties have nothing to do with Armor Check Penalty. Its always a -4 penalty. In order to avoid that penalty, you need to have the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat.

Quote:
A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Liberty's Edge

Jeraa wrote:
Quote:
Keep in mind that the nonprof penalty is based on ACP. Since this shield is a masterwork light shield (all magical shields are masterwork), it should have an ACP of 0. In other words: effectively no penalty.

When wielding it as a shield, you are right. But when bashing with it, its a weapon. And weapon non-proficiency penalties have nothing to do with Armor Check Penalty. Its always a -4 penalty. In order to avoid that penalty, you need to have the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat.

Quote:
A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Sorry, I was under the impression that shields were a simple weapon, not a martial weapon, so I assumed that Pendagast was referring to the ACP non-proficiency penalty.

So yes, the rogue would take that -4 for non-proficiency as a weapon.

Man, shield-bashing with a heavy shield while non-proficient on both ends would suck (-2 for shield's ACP, -4 for non-proficiency for a total of -6).

Then again, this brings up a further question: Is the "shield proficiency" side a different proficiency than the "weapon proficiency" side for a shield? Would a cleric take the -4 for bashing with a heavy shield, or does the shield proficiency they get cover it?


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Then again, this brings up a further question: Is the "shield proficiency" side a different proficiency than the "weapon proficiency" side for a shield? Would a cleric take the -4 for bashing with a heavy shield, or does the shield proficiency they get cover it?
Quote:

Shield Proficiency (Combat)

You are trained in how to properly use a shield.

Benefit: When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.

Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving.

Special: Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers all automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Says nothing about removing the weapon non-proficiency penalty, just the armor non-proficiency penalty.

Liberty's Edge

Jeraa wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Then again, this brings up a further question: Is the "shield proficiency" side a different proficiency than the "weapon proficiency" side for a shield? Would a cleric take the -4 for bashing with a heavy shield, or does the shield proficiency they get cover it?
Quote:

Shield Proficiency (Combat)

You are trained in how to properly use a shield.

Benefit: When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.

Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving.

Special: Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers all automatically have Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Says nothing about removing the weapon non-proficiency penalty, just the armor non-proficiency penalty.

Right, but the cleric's entry says they are proficient with shields, but not whether this is as a shield only or whether this only covers its use as a weapon. I'd say it's intended to be "as a shield"-only, but it's still a mildly interesting ambiguity.


Use as a weapon is only covered if the weapon proficiencies cover it.
To list your options:

1. Not proficient in shields and not in shield as weapon: -ACP to attack rolls with weapons OTHER than the shield, -4 for attacks with the shield, lose AC bonus
2. Proficient with shields but not in shield as a weapon: no penalty to attack with other weapons, -4 for attacks with the shield, lose AC bonus
3. Not proficient in shields but in shield as a weapon: -ACP to attack rolls with other weapons, no penalty to attacks with it, lose AC
4. Proficient in shield and in shields as weapons: no penalty to attack with other weapons and no penalty for attacking with the shield, lose AC bonus

Avoiding the loss of AC bonus when you shield bash can only be avoided when you take improved shield bash - which in turn requires shield proficiency.

Note also that when you wield a weapon (other than the shield) with weapon finesse, you suffer the ACP of shield to your attacks. This can only be avoided by having 0 ACP.

Hope that helps :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Y'all realize this is the Beginner Box section of the message boards, right?

Thus, there is NO SUCH THING as a thief taking the Shield Proficiency feat since there are no rules for that; there is no Shield Proficiency feat in the Beginner Box. (Other classes gain the use of shields, but not thieves.)

So all this talk of the Shield Proficiency feat is moot until the OP graduates to the Core Rules.


thief? do they call it a thief?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:
thief? do they call it a thief?

Well, in certain whispered circles and shadowy guilds they do. ;)

My apologies, ROGUE. I meant to say ROGUE.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Shield Proficiency ONLY covers a shields use as an item that grants you a shield bonus to AC.

It is a prerequisite to any other feat involving shields such as Improved Shield Bash.

If your rogue uses it as he is, he loses it's AC bonus, and adds the armor check penalty to an ADDITIONAL -4 penalty for nonproficiency for a total of -5. (like bonuses, penalties from different sources stack)

This is why most NPC rogues don't bother hitting people with shields instead of knifing you in the back.


"Y'all realize this is the Beginner Box section of the message boards, right?"

Apparently they do not and it drives me nuts. It adds tons of confusion to "Beginners".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Still the same rules. The player is looking to play "out of the box" as it were so he's put forward a question that only can be answered by core rules.


I need to read several times all the answers, for my luck I have the core rules, but I thought to read them once we were done with the BB. So now I am going to start to read the core rules about rogue, equipment and the feats.

I think my player is thinking in using the shield as a shield and not as a weapon... there is no feat for shield proficiency on the Beginner Box.

So for what I can understand...

1. If he wants to shoot an arrow, he needs to first take the shield off.
2. If he wants to use the shield as a "shield" he gets the AC bonus - right?
3. If he wants to attack with his rapier there is a penalty of -4 and he loses the AC bonus - until next turn?
4. If he wants to use the shield as a weapon aplies the same penalty -4 for attack rolls and loses AC bonus - until next turn?

but because it is a masterwork shield... what are the penalties that not apply?

I think Ineed a foolproof answer :S


1: Yes.
2: Yes.
3: The shield wont change anything with the rapier unless '4'.
4: The -4 only comes into play if he starts attacking people with the shield, instead of using it as a shield.

Liberty's Edge

chocochobi wrote:


but because it is a masterwork shield... what are the penalties that not apply?

I don't know much about beginner box, but if they ditched the need to be proficient in shields then ignore the whole "masterwork" thing as that only matters with respect to the shield proficiencies.


pfsrd wrote:
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex- and Str-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for non-proficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.

A normal Light Shield would be thus -1.

In this instance it is a magic light shield, and that means that it is masterwork by default. A Masterwork light shield has an ACP of 0, therefore there are no penalties for using the shield as a shield.

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