So, after a VERY short lived campaign ending in a TPK while still level 1... One of my games groups have hit the reset button.
I would like to make an Alchemist that operates similar to a modern soldier.
I would take the grenadier archetype and the explosive missile discovery. I would use my bombs more sparingly that most alchemist builds (which assume TWF/Rapid Shot to chuck bombs so quickly that i don't know how they don't run out after a single encounter.)
I would use my extracts/mutagens as a sort of "stimpack" or steroids to bolster an otherwise unremarkable soldier.
I kind of envision the use of a crossbow, but its painful to deal with the feat tax and inferior damage, so I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't mind a musket either, but without 5th level gunslinger, its got kind of the same issues as a crossbow.
I'd like to use the bombs as tactically as possible; sort of like flash-bang, fragmentation, or smoke grenades.
So, in short; things I want/need from this build:
1.) Ranged combatant
2.) Explosive Missile Discovery
3.) Fairly optimized
SO, Questions:
1.) Any feat advice beyond the usual ranged feats?
2.) Weapon choices?
3.) Anything that really adds to the soldier theme?
4.) Any Discoveries that really stand out, and add to the tactical nature of the build?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
I have a grenadier like this and its a lot of fun to play.
Couple of things to remember:
Explosive Missile is a Standard action so you can only make one a turn and you must be 4th lvl before you can take it. I still took Rapid Shot for my fallback plan of just shooting arrows.
You want a fallback plan because you will run out of bombs if you use then every round.
In order to use multiple bombs a round you need Fast Bombs, which you can't get until 8th lvl.
You also want Force Bombs but alas you can't get them till 8th as well.
Hope this helps a little.
And Eagle Knights make great soldiers!
Be Elf to get better weapon proficiencies... Plus the Dex and Int.
Or Dip Ranger for armor and weapon proficiencies and special operations skills as Human archer with PBS and Precise Shot. Look at Freebooter archetype for the everything is a Favored Enemy untyped bonus.
Take Smoke and Stink bombs.
cheers
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Your an alchemist, so act like one. Use your bonuses to your alchemy skill to build Several Cubic Buttloads of Alchemical weapons, tools and poisons. That way you become a regular Grenadier/tactical fighter, and perhaps even take proficiency in the Sling-Staff to give them more range.
Also take the Cognatogin discory to boost your int for More damage from bombs and thrown weapons.
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Because an Alchemists bombs are a supernatural ability, I would look into putting the Conductive found here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/conductive
Doing so would at the cost of 2 bombs per shot would allow you to fire a bomb through your crossbow/longbow meaning you can hit that flying creature with some bomb damage =D
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Oh hey, I did a lot of research on something like this for a character. Here's all the stuff I wrote up back then:
So, regarding feats. Here are a list of interesting ones. Some are not available at level one due to prereqs.
Combat feats:
Bulls-eye Shot - move action to get +4 on attack roll with weapon
Close Quarters Thrower - no longer provoke AOOs with weapon
Distance Thrower - reduce range penalty to attack rolls by 2
False Opening - provoke AOO with thrown weapon, get +4 AC vs AOO, enemy loses Dex to AC
Improvised Weapon Mastery - improvised thrown weapons do 1d6 damage and crit on 19-20
Parting Shot - make ranged attack with weapon as part of withdrawal action
Point Blank Shot - +1 to attack and damage within 30 feet with weapon
Precise Shot - ignore -4 penalty for attacking target in melee combat
Rapid Shot - make additional attack with weapon (-2 for all attacks)
Shot on the Run - attack with weapon during movement
Splash Weapon Mastery - half range penalty, extra splash square, manipulate miss landing point
Weapon Focus - +1 attack roll with weapon
General feats:
Extra Bombs - +2 bombs per day
Extra Discovery - learn a new alchemist discovery
Master Alchemist - alchemical items can be made in 1/10th the time (see below)
Remote Bomb - Longer delay for delayed bomb, ability to detonate early
Ricochet Splash Weapon - If miss lands in enemy square, chance to count as direct hit
Toughness - +3 HP and +1 per level after 3rd
Some of the obvious ones are Point Blank and Precise shot. Splash Weapon Mastery and Ricochet Splash Weapon work rather well together (since you get to control the miss location just a bit). False opening is nice because touch AC is only 10 + Dex + magic, so you let someone try to hit you, then next turn drop a bomb in his face. A few have quite a long list of prereqs.
Master Alchemist takes 5 ranks (thus level 5) in craft alchemy but will let you do stuff very fast. Let me go through crafting with you:
Lets say you want to make a vial of alchemical fire, DC 20 and costs 20gp. At level 6, you have a craft alchemy score rank of 6 (ranks) + 6 (level) + 3 (trained) + 4 (int mod) + 2 (lab) = 21. You take 10 (instead of rolling you can choose the straight 10) giving you a total of 31. 31 * 20 (craft DC) = 620 sp worth of work in a week.
Now you take item value, 20gp * 10 = 200 sp. Divide 200 by 620= 3.1 days / 2 from alchemist double speed = 1.6 days of crafting time to make one vial of alchemist fire. That sucks. But there are a few things we can do.
First, add 10 to the DC to make it faster. In our above example, you can easily do that and still take 10, giving you a 31 vs a 30 dc. The calculation is 31 * 30 = 930 sp in a week. 200 / 930 = 1.5 days / 2 from alchemist double speed = 0.75 days! Yay, did it in under a day! For one vial... hmm...
But wait! Here's the best part. At level 6 you can get Master Alchemist. It says you use the item's value instead of multiplying it by 10. So as above 930 sp in a week but only 20 sp to craft the item... so now we have 20 / 930 = 72 minutes / 2 from alchemist double speed = 36 minutes. You make one vial in a bit over half an hour. And that is just by taking 10 with no chance of failure.
In addition to all of that, speaking of just the Grenadier: You get a free martial weapon prof. with the class, which is always nice. The reason you want to focus on the alchemical item construction is for the Grenadier's 2nd level ability: Alchemical Weapon. You can attach alchemical fire to your bolt, or to the fighter's sword, and ensure an extra oomph from the first hit.
It is also awesome to attach a thunder stone to a bolt and fire it across the map for distraction or to deafen guards as you run past.
That conductive ability is AWESOME for Alchemists. That's right with Guided for Wisdom-based characters. However, you can get the same thing with Explosive Missile discovery. Maybe retrain the Explosive Missile discovery to Force Bombs if your GM allows you after you get Conductive on your ranged weapon.
Be careful of feat progression, because ranged combat wants many good ones. I think you'll find yourself feat-starved, so plan it out to many levels in advance. Priorize feats that are useful with bombs and your ranged weapon.
I think Explosive Missile limits guns to one-handed to minimize the ranged touch attacks at musket distances. Besides if you want that, go pure gunslinger (musketeer) for more damage.
Have you read the Malazan Empire series? A crossbow wielding alchemist with Explosive Missile reminds me of Fiddler the sapper: cussers, flamers, etc.
I reiterate the Ranger dip for the soldier feel, because there's nothing prohibiting heavier armor for Alchemists. The main limit is Maximum Dexterity of armors, which makes Medium Armor optimal.
Taking Medium Armor proficiency might be good for the character as well; a gun-toting, well armored artillery expert.
And, as noted above, there is always Craft Alchemy...
A friend of mine played an Alchemist as his first character and he kept forgetting that he could craft things with the skill. Extracts and bombs are just so shiny and cool people forget about the mundane options.
Kirin Style. x2 int to damage as a swift action.
You can take Imp.Unarmed Strike as a discovery if you are an Internal alchemist.
You can also take the Grenadier Alchemist, use your move to attach an alchemical compound to your shot and shoot it. Still the splash+int in damage. Like this you can also use Vital Strike with it.
That conductive ability is AWESOME for Alchemists. That's right with Guided for Wisdom-based characters.
Oh Wow Oh Wow. Thank you for this, catching that bombs are a Su ability!
What about 2 levels of Gunslinger (Gun Tank)?
all armor proficiencies, firearm proficiencies, some deeds...
All the rest into Alchemist?
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The following is a bit of a read but is my oppinion a good rought to go for the op.
Id sugest a Half-elf Alchemist with Bramble Brewer and Grenadier archetypes. Discoveries being Explosive Bomb, Explosive Missile, Extend Potion, Eternal Potion, Enhance Potion, Preserve Organs x2, Greater Mutagen, Grand Mutagen, and True Mutagen. Ur forced to pick up the tanglefoot bomb at level 2 via Bramble Brewer and get for free at same level Precise Bombs via Grenadier.
Explosive Bomb and Explosive Missile is a great combo since u can launch a bomb from a ranged weapon and have it do a 1d6 fire dmg dot untill the creature take the turn to extinguish it self.
The Extend Potion, Eternal Potion, and Enhance Potion combo can make fun defensive things happen like at the start of the day having a perma Displacement potion active, turning a crap duration ability in2 some thing very useful, having a potion of mage armor that works at ur Alchemist level and duration doubled and then popping an extract of shield when the fight actual starts.
Preserve Organs x2 gives a 50% chance of ignoring sneak attack dmg and a 50% chance of turning crits in2 regular damage.
Btw normally the Tanglefoot Bomb is useless but the Bramble Brewer makes it were the entanglement's duration persists for a number of rounds equal to ur int modifier. Additionally it transforms all squares in its splash radius into difficult terrain that persists for as long as the bomb's entangling effect. Although these bombs deal no damage, for every 1d6 points of damage the Bramble Brewer's regular bombs deal, the Tanglefoot Bomb's splash radius increases by 5 feet. That makes the discovery actually good especially since it can be launched from ur ranged weapon via Explosive Missile and u can chose areas not to be difficult terrain via Precise Bombs from Grenadier.
Also the Mutagen, Greater Mutagen, Grand Mutagen, and True Mutagen from Bramble Brewer give fast healing in bright light. I do recommend for this having the party wizard or a wizard in town if u can find 1 cast a Perma Daylight spell on ur weapon. That way u can take full advantage of the fast healing and the weapon should be sheathed or holstered so u wont give away ur position until in combat when u draw ur weapon.
Look into Crossbow Sniping? Gun Tank would work as well.
The question is could you use the Explosive Missile and Vital Strike together?
And we really need a Discovery or ruling that allows Fast Bombs to work with Explosive Missile.
Conductive does work with Alchemist Bombs doesn't it... }:D
Really they do work together... Hmm...
I was saying it as an option that would be nice to have. Maybe not in Core but in a supplement. Even if it is a power of an Archetype.
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U do realize how powerful a fast bomb explosive missile would be especially since that can be further modified by things like explosive bomb. A BBEG and small groups would be wiped out in almost a single round if that. As a DM my self i would eminently disallow said discovery. I grit my teeth even allowing gunslingers with there free action reload on firearms especial since back in the day to load a musket and fire it took around 35 secs for a trained gunner. Swift action reloads are more tolerable and understandable.
So you are saying making it only available at Level 16 or higher is going to break the game?
And you do realize that contrary to popular belief a trained gunman could easily fire multiple times in a 6 second period. Especially if they were using a Pistol. A musket or such would be a bit slower but still feasible. A trained soldier would be 35 seconds.
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Have u ever played or DMed a game up2/for level 20? I have since 2e. There are things that can make or break a game. Also ive always gone with the policy of what u can do so can the enemy and if i was to allow said discovery id allow it for the enemy. So u will definitely have a BBEG that can 1 round any enemy especially designed by some1 that knows what (s)he is doing.
I have GM'd or Co-GM'd 76+ Games in the past 2 years. If you add in the games I PC'd in that number is well over 100 games. ALL of them up to Level 20.
Considering the fact that allowing Fast Bombs with Explosive Missile would be only slightly above the damage capability of a Same Level Blasting Focused Sorcerer I see no problem.
In one game I had a Sorcerer who could one shot an entire 50x50 room filled with CR5 creatures.
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Id like to see what happens when a character stairs down the barrels of an alch using the two-weapon fighting feats, quick draw, and a trench coat strapped with guns. O lets give him fly and greater invisability.Not to mention its his layer so there will b traps every were with minions and the BBEG knows the place inside and out.
Well lets see considering Emerging Guns Level of firearms... At level 20 the Alchemist would need a minimum of 6 Pistols that means if they wanted to get the Magic Weapon Bonuses they would need 6 equally enchanted weapons meaning most of their Money is invested in that.
The Alchemist would have to Pick-Up & Reload every single pistol to even get a chance to repeat unless he has a 7th backup pistol for single use in which he suffers from a lack of feats to fully use the Pistol.
The Alchemist would also have to contend with spells like Fickle Winds and such.
All in All this Alchemist ends up being a One-Trick Pony.
Oh I also forgot that most Parties tend to have access to anti-invisibility options around the time this tactic would be feasible.
A potion of Greater Magic Weapon wouldn't do what you seem to think it does.
Greater Magic Weapon is an Oil not a Potion.
And the Sorcerer that was in my game had a 30+ DEX.
I guess that is one of the Changes from 3.0(and the First/Second Printing of 3.5)... Given that an Oil could only effect a single target and was FAQ'd to state that it wouldn't work with Ammo...
And you still encounter the problem of the Party could sneak in on the or at least get the drop on him to where he doesn't have enough time to get it prepped. And if you state that he uses it everyday whether or not someone is going then where does he get the money to afford so many Oils? Or do you Metagame that away?
Targeted Bomb Admixture works as well if you only have a single target. And you can make Potions of it.
And IIRC it can be used with Explosive Missile.
So Explosive Missile+Targeted Bomb Admixture+Gun Training(from a Dip into Gunslinger) and you could be looking at some hefty damage...
It is Gun Training that allows you to add DEX to damage right?
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I dont metagame that way. And its hard to sneak in2 areas that are heavily guarded. It is possible to sneak in but there is such thing as trapped traps if a rogue disables 1 the next is activated. Alarm is a wonderful thing. So is constructs and skeletons of previous adventures and townsfolk. Also if all else fails there is an old favored trap i like to use being the building support beam is wall of force that 1ce gone forces the entire building to collapse on it self. BTW every good BBEG that is not 1 needs his very own wizard buddy. Gotta supply the magic needs some way.
Hmm... IIRC: The only thing you have stated that can't easily be bypassed by magic is the trapped traps. And maybe, just maybe Alarm.
Even with a Wizard/Sorcerer companion would still need to supply gold to craft the potions.
So.... back on topic:
20 point buy, Human Gunslinger (Gun Tank)2/Alchemist (Grenadier) X
STR 12
DEX 15 (17) (level 4 stat boost here)
CON 14
INT 14 (all other stat boosts here)
WIS 12
CHA 8
traits:
Armor Expert
Magical Knack (Doesn't work with Alchemist, does it?)
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Rapid Reload
3 Rapid Shot
5 Deadly Aim
7 Precise Shot
9 Extra Discovery: Spontaneous Healing
11 Extra Discovery: Force Bomb
13 Extra Discovery: Preserve Organs
15 Improved Precise Shot
Alchemist Discoveries
2 Explosive Bomb
4 Explosive Missile
6 Smoke Bomb
8 Fast Bombs
10 Preserve Organs
12 Mummification
14 Poison bomb
How is that for a build?
Anything I am missing or that i need to improve on?
Thanks for the advice everyone!
It seems good. And Magical Knack should work with the Alchemist as they do have a CL.
If you are going to be at a Long enough range Musket Master could be a better Archetype.
You get Rapid Reload for free and if you go to level three you get Fast Musket deed.
And Sorry for the side topic.
1.) Cool, glad Magical Knack works, good to remember.
2.) Didn't go Musket Master (though I would kind of like it) because gun tank gave armor proficiencies that the Alchemist can use very effectively since the class does not suffer from Arcane Spell Failure.
Don't worry bout that side topic stuff, it was interesting.
Just a note: Vital Strike does not work with Explosive Missile. Explosive Missile requires a standard action. Vital Strike is only on attack actions. Unfortunately, that means that things that require standard actions cannot be used with vital strike.
Why two levels of Gunslinger? Nimble/bullet deflection is not that great unless you play in game with lots of firearms. You're sacrificing a level of Alchemist of it, which doesn't seem a great trade.
Remember that this build is NOT great if you can't use your musket with your bombs, which is against RAW requiring GM house rule. Otherwise, you are using a pistol, which has the same range and touch attack as your bombs. Using you a pistol, you get an extra 1d8 damage.
You might want Precise Shot and Deadly Aim before Rapid Shot. Both Precise Shot and Deadly Aim can be used by your bombs, while Rapid Shot must wait until Fast Bombs (level 9). Precise Shot supports your party shooting into melee. Deadly Aim with pistol at level 5 is 1d8+4 damage vs 2 attacks at 1d8; both have a -2 attack.
You might dump Cha to 7 and put another point in Strength, because heavy armors are, well, heavy. The other point can be Wisdom.
I don't yet see caster level is that important for Alchemists, so you might want a +1 Will trait to pump your lowest save.
cheers
1.) Two levels of Gunslinger for the armor and the Bullet Deflection ability... Upon reflection, really a flavor choice. Yes, I could easily do with a single Gunslinger level.
2.) I am assuming (at this point) that i will be using a pistol. The reason that its better than a a solely bomb based build is that I can add alchemical items and substances to said bullets, and its still a ranged touch attack: better than nothing.
yes, it would be nice if Muskets would work here, but by RAW I don't see it; its an acceptable loss.
3.)The reason I didn't get Precise Shot before Rapid Shot was due to the Grenadier archetype getting Precise Bombs at level 2.
Ergo, Precise Shot only matters with my actual ranged attacks. Seeing as that guns are touch attacks for the first range increment, I figured i could hold off a bit.
As far as I was concerned, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim were largely interchangeable (increased damage at cost of accuracy) but I didn't realize Deadly Aim could be applied to bombs. Probably a good idea to swap.
Though... Can you not attack the square, thus damaging the creature in it for the same amount of damage, but instead targeting AC 10?
Though... Can you not attack the square, thus damaging the creature in it for the same amount of damage, but instead targeting AC 10?
Sure. But the square would then only take splash damage.
You might want to lower your Dex to 16 and pump Int. Breast Plate max dex is +3, and you need medium armor to activate your Gun Tank’s Resolve deed. And Int increases splash damage.
Use a longbow at low levels with your alchemical weapon ability for longer distances: tanglefoot, smokestick, thunderstone, etc. It's a free action to reload, so you can move and shoot.
cheers
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@Cheapy
Vital strike can be used with Explosive Missile since it can be used with Devastating Blow from the Fighter archetype Two-Handed Fighter from the Advanced Player's Guide. I asked JJ a while back because i thought the same thing. If u want proof the link below is my question and 4 post down is his response to my question. Though i dont realy care for the reason y it still would transcend to Explosive Missile since the wording on the action used is the same being that both are standard actions. Also id take his word over any1 else since he is apart of Pathfinder and i am a fan of his previous work with WoTC.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=471?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#23521
Fast Musket allows you to treat the Musket as a One-Handed Firearm as long as you have one grit point. Which should allow you to use Explosive Missile with it.
I would say Vital Strike works on any Standard Action that allows for an attack. Which is one reason why I think Mobile Fighters should be able to use it with their capstone.
Jason Bulmahn said this about combining Cleave, a standard action just like Explosive Missile, with Vital Strike, an attack action. The principle is the same for Explosive Missile, and unfortunately James was wrong with his post.
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Fast Musket states: At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm.
I know it does not state the intention of the wording but i honestly think they should start for those that try to weasel around them. That could work on 1 hand because of he description of Explosive Missile but on the other hand it can just be intended for feats like rapid reload. Thats some thing up to ur DM to decide or get clarification on from JJ since he does that sort of thing.
Fast Musket allows you to treat the Musket as a One-Handed Firearm as long as you have one grit point. Which should allow you to use Explosive Missile with it.
Ooph. That has a faint whiff of "really not the intent".