Heighten Spell Feat and Sorcerers


Advice


The purpose of this thread is discussing about the goodness of the Heighten Spell feat when it is taken by a Sorcerer (or an Oracle by the way). Hey maybe this has been taken into these boards before, but I didn't read it.
It's been said that a heightened spell is not as good as a higher level spell. While this is mostly true, I want to take the focus to the whole spell selection for a sorcerer, instead of the individual spells.

My point may be broken into:
1. A sorcerer has got a limited number of spells.
2. So he must take spells useful in a wide range of situations (objective: versatility)
3. He also wants to be able to be effective when dealing with those situations (objective: effectivity).
4. The Heighten Spell feat allows the sorcerer to be more effective by using low level spells at a higher DC, and to be more versatile as he can choose higher level spells of a different kind.
5. I assume that the sorcerer desires rather to take a not-so-versatile spell of the highest level (he's got very few spells known) than of a lower level (he's got more spells known).

To show it by example, let's take a sorcerer that is quite focused in hindering (debuffing) his enemies, but also wants to do some damage. He just reached 16th level, and is considering which spell should he choose. Let's say he chooses Irresistible Dance (Maybe there are better spells, but Ive chosen this one for this example as it is very similar to Irresistible Dance). For dealing damage, he usually casts Scorching Ray (among others, this is only for comparison).
Now let's take another sorcerer. This one's got the Heighten spell feat, and instead of Scorching Ray he's taken Hideous Laughter as one of his 2nd level spells known. At 17th level he chooses Horrid Wilting as his new spell.

If we compare Irresistible Dance vs [Heightened] Hideous Laughter
Components: V vs VSM
Range: touch vs Close
Target: living creature vs creature (and dont affect Int 2 or lower)
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds vs 1round/lvl
Saving Throw: Will partial (at least 1 round) vs Wll negates (every round, +4 for different type)
ID effects: Target takes No Actions, -4 to AC plus negates shield, -10 reflex, Provokes AoO.
HL effects: Target takes No Actions, -4 to AC [Prone]

The DC for both spells is the same, and while ID has got some advantages (esp. for the effective duration and the AoO), the HL spell has a greater range, which makes it more probable to be cast.
If we compare HW to SR, it seems clear that HW is more powerful.

What happens if we extend this principles to the whole spell selection? That the sorcerer can choose lower level spells that target will, reflex and fortitude, one specific for undead, another one for creatures with SR.... etc... and then, maybe, Irresistible Dance for that nasty grappling creatures (no somatic, will partial). And all of these, may be cast, if needed, at the highest DC the sorcerer is capable of (or at lower one if he chooses so).

I hope I made my point clear, and please those rather probable English errors.


Angelrobe, I've been preaching this exact point, to little purpose.
I think Heighten spell is a solid feat; both for many classes - wizards, sorcerors, oracles.

For example: Heavens Display Oracle, Awesome Display. Boost your charisma as high as you can. Boost the DC via Heighten Color spray.
Very Strong.

Wizard example: Dazing magic missle controller build. Magical lineage + magic missile + dazing = Lvl 4. Heighten to get a couple Extra DC.

--------------------------------
Heighten is useful to:
a). Add utility spells to a sorceror. Ie., once you have good bang spells in each save category, you can go for added versatility.
b). Anytime you have a class feature or build focused around a few spells. This could be due to magical lineage, CL focus (possible to get CL 20 at 11th level - but only with a few spells); Spell specilization or preferred spell builds.


I don't think the versatility in number of levels added isn't worth anything, but the situations are pretty rare where Persistant spell won't do things better than heighten spell. If you take a spell of each theme of effect every 3 spell level or so, persistant spell will make it available nearly always. While you won't have the ability to raise a 2nd level spell to 8th level chance to pull it off, you can raise a 4th or 5th level spell to 6th or 7th level with about the same chance to pull it off as the 8th level spell.


You have a point, that metamagic is INCREDIBLY good for spontaneous casters.

However, Heighten is only good for saving throw spells. You can make the same argument for empower spell or extend spell, for blasters or buffers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Three words...

Heightened Light Spell.


LazarX wrote:

Three words...

Heightened Light Spell.

Or continual flame, far more useful.


LazarX wrote:

Three words...

Heightened Light Spell.

Why? Is that a joke, or is there some utility that I don't see.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jubal Breakbottle wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Three words...

Heightened Light Spell.

Why? Is that a joke, or is there some utility that I don't see.

Run some modules full of monsters that cast Deeper Darkness at will sometime. Being able to heighten Light beyond DD's level can make all the difference.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ilja wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Three words...

Heightened Light Spell.

Or continual flame, far more useful.

Continual Flame is not a "light" spell, you can't use it to counter deeper darkness.


LazarX wrote:
Ilja wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Three words...

Heightened Light Spell.

Or continual flame, far more useful.
Continual Flame is not a "light" spell, you can't use it to counter deeper darkness.

It has the [light] descriptor and the "Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level." comment?

link


Heightened light spells are probably among the most useful applications of Heightened Spell.

@LazarX: Why exactly can't Continual Flame counter Deeper Darkness? I was under the impression that a heightened everburning torch (created with Continual Flame) was the perfect piece of equipment for dealing with darkness.


Most of my sorcerers end up with Heighten Spell by at least 8th or 10th level for the very reasons being discussed in this thread.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mcv wrote:

Heightened light spells are probably among the most useful applications of Heightened Spell.

@LazarX: Why exactly can't Continual Flame counter Deeper Darkness? I was under the impression that a heightened everburning torch (created with Continual Flame) was the perfect piece of equipment for dealing with darkness.

The Light spell is spoken of as being able to counter and countered by darkness. The same description is not given for Continual Flame which I assume is no different than a torch. Besides Continual Flame is not the kind of spell I'd want to learn as a Sorcerer.


LazarX wrote:
The Light spell is spoken of as being able to counter and countered by darkness. The same description is not given for Continual Flame which I assume is no different than a torch. Besides Continual Flame is not the kind of spell I'd want to learn as a Sorcerer.

But it is the same! Read the PRD again.

Continual Flame
School evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (ruby dust worth 50 gp)
Range touch
Target object touched
Effect magical, heatless flame
Duration permanent
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

A flame, equivalent in brightness to a torch, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn't use oxygen. A continual flame can be covered and hidden but not smothered or quenched.
Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.

And since the duration is permanent, you could cast it a few times on different dead ioun stones or whatever, and then retrain the spell to something else. Or simply use a sheet of spell knowledge or whatever they are called.


Ilja:
Persistent Spell is a great feat, too, but it's in the advanced book and we don't use it except for a few things. Anyway, using persistent is more efficient than using heighten, as the increase in chances of affecting the target goes roughly from 5% to 25%: for the "cost" of two spell levels, you get an increase of 1 to 5 in the DC, while heighten increases the DC by 1 for every spell level. Persistent gets the best results in efficiency when the initial probability of affecting the target is about 50%, and the worst when that probability is very low or very high.

Let's take a 16th level sorcerer (I use 16th because that's where most APs end), with CHA 24 (+7 bonus). A CR 16 creature's average saves go from 14 (bad saves) to 19 (good saves). If the sorcerer is lucky or wise and targets the bad save, his chances of affecting it go from 15% (spell level 1) to 50% (level 8). Using persistent spell, it increases the chances by 13% (spell level 1) to 24% (level 6), for a total of 28% to 64%. But if he uses heighten, he can increase the chances to 50%, and the the original spell level doesn't matter.

From these numbers we see that persistent is more efficient and even more effective in some cases.

Now let's see what happens when a sorcerer targets the good save or the creature is of a greater CR (save bonus 19). The initial chances of affecting the target go from 5% to 25%. Using Persistent increases the chances only by 5% if the spell is level 1st to 4th (to 10%), and by 13% (to 28%) if the spell is 6th level. Heighten can increase the chances of any spell to 25%.

From these other numbers we see that persistant may be less efficient and less effective than heighten.

So final thoughts:
Persistant is better if you are fighting enemies of relative low CR, or/and you target the bad save often, or you have really high modifiers to spell DCs. It's not really good for low level spells, so forget ray of enfeeblement. That is, your range of "right" spells is limited. It usually is quite efficient, and if you manage to apply to spells 2 levels lower than your highest spell level, it is more effective. So while you are leveling up, you have to choose new spells that are adequate (and sometimes there will not be the spells you want a those levels).

Heighten is better when you are fighting enemies of relative high CR or/and you don't know which the bad saves are. It is good for the whole range of spells you have, so it is more versatile as you can choose a 1st level spell if it's the right one for that situation. As you level up, you don't really have to change many of the spells you rely on.

PD: Persistant should be better as a whole for the bard, who's got less spells than the sorcerer (so he shouldn't be wasting them), can't heighten to a so higher level, and has good chances via knowledges and abilities to target the bad save.


Agreed on most parts, but I would say that at 16th level, you DO have GSF in at least one school and/or some other modifier to DC (such as fey bloodline to charms), so I think even if you target the good save (but use a spell of one of your focused schools) persistant will usually be better. Also note that persistant can increase odds of success past 95%, which heighten can't.


It should be noted too, that at mid levels, a rod of persistant metamagic (lesser) is cheap and even a standard might be available. So you can have both persistant and heighten at the same time pretty easily.

A rod of lesser persistant is among the best investments there are for offensive casters in my mind, second only to the stat boosters.


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I second that heighten is a useful and solid feat and often underrated. Also, it does not only help your spells, but it helps your spell to do something *at all* when faced with the globe of invulnerability spells - something that all the other feats cannot do.

As an added bonus - though more circumstantial - it can also help you layer your defensive buffs better to counter dispelling. For example, if you usually buff yourself with a blur spell and a greater invisibility spell, and you want to protect that ínvisibility - cast the blur at a higher level. The way standard dispel works it starts with the highest level spell, which would then be the blur spell.

Finally, look at preferred spell. Though it is less useful for spontaneous casters than for prepared casters, it allows you to
a) not increase the casting time for a feat, means you can stack metamagic feats onto it without going for a full-round casting, keeping mobility high
b) potentially - this is not clear from the feat description - use other classes spell slots to power your specific spell. So if you are e.g. going for Mystic Theurge you could possibly be able to use your divine spells to cast that specific arcane spell and vice versa - spam away :-)

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