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The first question is:
1) It is possible to cumulate Arcane strike and the bonus of Arcane pool on the same weapon?
During playtesting the reply was NO:
Yeah, that wording needs some tweaking. These are not meant to stack.Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingJason Bulmahn
Yeah, the max +10 rule is still in effect, and this ability is meant to emulate and improve upon Arcane Strike, hence the no stacking bit. I can see now that this needs some clarifications to get it there and it will be addressed in the final version.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
but the final version has no text about it not stacking with Arcane strike.
Even more important, Arcane strike has no text in it limiting it to a total weapon enhancement of +10, so a 20th level bard with a +5, keen, holy, wounding rapier can use it to get a +5 to damage, while, by that ruling, a magus that has enhanced his weapon using his Arcane pool can't.
This generate a second question:
2) Arcane strike count as a weapon enhancement and is counted in a weapon total enhancement bonus for the +10 ceiling to the enhancement?
And a third:
3) The black blade strike ability
Black Blade Strike (Sp): As a free action, the magus can spend a point from the black blade's arcane pool to grant the black blade a +1 bonus on damage rolls for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, this ability gives the black blade another +1 on damage rolls.
has the same limitation?
It can be stacked at all with Arcane strike?(I am the "fighter" in my current group so I am very interested in anything that can increase my damage output)
Well I am not digging too deep atm as I am at work but as a note something does not need to have text saying it can not go past the +10 limit.
The +10 limit is a general rule always in effect. The only time something needs to state something specific is if it somehow broke said rule.
This is something I see way to much, The "It doesn't say I can't!" argument. Unless something flat out says its an exception to a general rule then its not.
I don't have it on me, but I thought the playtest version worked differently anyways. Not that that matters, arcane strike and the BBS both apply untyped bonuses to damage, and thus should stack with anything (being untyped they have absolutely no interaction with the enhancement bonus cap).
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The problem is that it is a +1 to +5 to damage, not a +1 to +5 to the enhancement.
If Arcane strike really can't stack with the damage enhancement of a magic weapon but instead overlap it, it lose most of its appeal.
With that interpretation as soon as a spellcaster with Arcane strike get a magic weapon the bonus from Arcane strike become less useful. If that is true I think it should get a clear note explaining that in the Arcane strike ability.
There's no overlap. It is a different bonus type entirely, and will still add to the total damage of even a +10 weapon. By saying they don't interact with the enhancement bonus cap, I mean literally that the bonus from arcane strike isn't an enhancement bonus and thus isn't capped by the ceiling.
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I don't have it on me, but I thought the playtest version worked differently anyways. Not that that matters, arcane strike and the BBS both apply untyped bonuses to damage, and thus should stack with anything (being untyped they have absolutely no interaction with the enhancement bonus cap).
I looked the 1st and 3rd version of the playtest version.
Jason comment was about the third version and it don't seem different enough from the final version to justify a change in that ruling if that is the RAI of Arcane pool.As the text he thought to add wasn't added I don't know if that is the final RAI.
Question 2) and 3) compound the problem, especially as the Black Blade Strike seem to be a version of Arcane strike.
It is a classic RAI vs RAW problem.
Yeah now that I looked they indeed work together. Arcane Strike is untyped and in fact is a feat used in about every magus guide.
Acrane strike does not function really anywhere at all like Arcane pool or enchantment bonuses. It is independent.
My comment before was not really aimed at this feat as it does not apply at all to the general rule. It was more in general at a certain type of logic that bugs me. Now that I look more carefully my comment was a bit out of place here. Sorry about that should have paid more attention before saying anything.
-Edit- I really don't see a RAI problem here. They all cost resources. AP and BBAP for the other two and a swift action for arcane strike. Swift actions are valuable to the magus. One of the magus most used arcana is Arcane Accuracy that is a swift action. Most people use it to make up for the -2 from spell combat and the added - from power attack.
I personally this arcane strike is a better idea and skip power attack on most magus builds.
With arcane strike you can spend a feet on it and use a swift action for simple damage. With power attack you speed a feat, Then a Arcana on Arcane Accuracy so you won't miss all the time, then a swift action and a AP to use it.
In the end that's a lot of cost for a few more damage (With magus 3/4 BAB maxed out power attack at lvl 20 isn't even twice the damage of arcane strike.)
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No problem.
My GM and I play more following RAI as we interpret it than RAW, but I am interested in the replies about these questions as it is borderline enough. Getting some insight in the Developer thoughts about this set of abilities would be a bonus.
Till a few days ago I would have asked JJ an opinion, but the "get your house in order" thread had made that option unavailable. :-(
*points up to his edit in that last post for more info as to why he does not see it as RAI nor unbalanced.*
Also you really can not take playtest as RAI as so much changes. Since it is a common feat for Magus in every guide and after this long there is no word to the contrary from Devs I would take it as things are good. If there really was a problem with it by the Devs in playtest it would not have come out like this. Odds are they gave it a close look like I just did up a couple post and found ti to be perfectly fine so left it as is.
Alright, well... I've scoured my drives and now the interwebs, but I simply can't find a working link to the third round version of the magus. Could you so kindly post the wordings of the ability from there to here? If nothing else, extra eyes may be able to spot a discrepancy that lead to the original reasons for Jason Bulmahn’s statement
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Arcane Pool (Su): At 1st level, the magus gains a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once each day when the magus prepares his spells. At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. This ability counts as the Arcane Strike feat for meeting any prerequisites. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves. At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost (see Table 15–9 of the Core Rulebook). These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
Just noticed the bolded part. I think it is missing in the final version. I am going to work so no time to cheek.
You are correct it is missing. Seems they decided it was better to let them work together. I honestly find it to be a perfectly balanced feat.
For a magus the choices are.
Power attack + Arcane Accuracy, for more damage but the cost of more resources.
Arcane Strike, Less damage for less resources.
Yes with enough buffing in the party one could combine Power attack and Arcane strike safely without the need for Arcane Accuracy but that is what buffers do, make everyone stronger so that's fair.
For other arcane casters in melee using it means no quickened spell or swift spell. So its not good for say eldrich knight and is a trade off for bard as they have some great swift spells.
Its not a good feat for someone just dipping lvls in a arcane class as it only grows with caster lvl.
All in all a nicely balanced feat if not maybe even on the weak aside from in a few builds.
During playtesting the reply was NO:
Yeah, that wording needs some tweaking. These are not meant to stack.Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingJason Bulmahn
Yeah, the max +10 rule is still in effect, and this ability is meant to emulate and improve upon Arcane Strike, hence the no stacking bit. I can see now that this needs some clarifications to get it there and it will be addressed in the final version.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Two days later, same thread:
Lets all calm it down just a bit. I am looking into a number of issues. I may have mispoke on the Arcane Strike issue and this ability may not be working as intended. I am investigating exact language.
I am thinking that the class ability might lose its connection to Arcane Strike, but I am still investigating.
I am thinking that Arcane Strike will probably still have nothing to do with the +10 cap on magic items, but I am still investigating.
So given that the current (Non-Beta) Arcane Strike feat is not an enhancement bonus, and doesn't grant any improved chance to hit, and doesn't allow them to overcome DR other than magic, it's safe to assume that Jason's revision caused RAW to align with RAI in that both Arcane Strike and Arcane Pool should stack.
Design Manager
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...but the final version has no text about it not stacking with Arcane strike.
Even more important, Arcane strike has no text in it limiting it to a total weapon enhancement of +10, so a 20th level bard with a +5, keen, holy, wounding rapier can use it to get a +5 to damage, while, by that ruling, a magus that has enhanced his weapon using his Arcane pool can't.
This generate a second question:
2) Arcane strike count as a weapon enhancement and is counted in a weapon total enhancement bonus for the +10 ceiling to the enhancement?
And a third:
3) The black blade strike ability
Black Blade Strike (Sp): As a free action, the magus can spend a point from the black blade's arcane pool to grant the black blade a +1 bonus on damage rolls for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, this ability gives the black blade another +1 on damage rolls.has the same limitation?
It can be stacked at all with Arcane strike?***
So, a given ability doesn't actually need text in it limiting it to the normal +10, that's covered in the Magic Weapons section where it says " A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10."
That being said, Arcane Strike does not provide an enhancement bonus, just an untyped bonus to damage, so it should stack with pretty much any other sources of damage.