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Just when you start to feel like Pathfinder doesn't have any suprises left...you know the names of all the planes, all the countries, most of the history and metaplot. You think you've got it handled.
Then you read an article that suggests that the gods are travellers from another universe. Dude! That's an interesting idea. It suggests that every god in the universe is an interloper deity..and that the true rulers of the universe really are the Great Old Ones.
Brings up an interesting thought. You know how Zon Kuthon went out into the realms beyond the outer sphere and came back all corrupted? What if that's because the outer sphere isn't the edge of the cosmos...what if it's a dam, built by the gods to hold back the qillithopic tides--and the abyss is the cumulative effect of mortal sin and negative emotion making cracks in that wall. Beyond it is the cosmos as it's meant to be if not for the interference of the gods.
Yikes.
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I caught the hints, but had always figured it meant the gods had been interlopers from other cultures and prime worlds in the universe. I'd never imagined that this universe had never had gods until they arrived...or at least not-Outer God gods.
That's wild. Sort of makes you wonder about the Starstones. I've never fully bought into the idea that the Aboleths' great revenge would be to pull down an object that would simultaneously destroy their empire and allow humans to become gods. Seems like they should have forseen such serious consequenses, and there were plenty of other roads to revenge for them to have taken.
I had always assumed the Starstone was created by a race of aliens who wanted to uplift mortal races to godhood to stave off the instability of the Maelstrom and the Abyss. Now I'm not so sure. With the gods being travellers here, maybe the Starstones are like their ships? The divine essences within seek out suitable human hosts and bind onto them? Maybe that's what the Test is...
It's all really interesting.
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Well, SOME of the gods. Torag might predate a lot of the local pantheon. Noting how the Dwarves seem to predate Humans, Elves, and such. And keep in mind the Elves were interlopers anyway via the Elf Gates, and they fled during the dark times. (If they didn't decend into the bowels of the Earth and either go Drow or pop out in Tian Xia.) Gnomes are interlopers as well.
Damn, Humans evolved from tinkering from the Aboleths from primative societies. It's funny to think how many native outsiders are on this world.
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Then you read an article that suggests that the gods are travellers from another universe. Dude! That's an interesting idea. It suggests that every god in the universe is an interloper deity..and that the true rulers of the universe really are the Great Old Ones.
There's a post by Set that sums this up very nicely, let me see if I can find it...
Sure, many Lovecraft stories end with some dude going quietly insane (or getting eaten), but none of them end with the 'great old ones' destroying the world.
More generally, one man's world (or, at least, his preconceptions about it) is shattered. The world goes on. Stuff that the rest of the world doesn't want to know about continues to happen in the shadows.
The existential despair of 'there are no gods watching over us, or, if there are, they are vast, cool and unsympathetic, and care not for us at all,' is indeed a powerful part of the 'age of enlightenment' issues that Lovecraft was addressing, but they can still exist in a setting where there are powerful benevolent outsiders as well, so long as the ancient horrors remain a threat. Note that, in Golarion, the majority of gods, good or evil, are from other dimensions, and not native to this reality. The gods *of this world* are the old gods, and the only escape from them is to *literally* escape, swearing your soul to some extradimensional outsider, and fleeing the plane entirely.
That's pretty dark, right there. Sell your soul. Doesn't matter to whom, Asmodeus or Iomedae, but sell it fast, because if you don't get out, the god of this world is named Azathoth, and you don't want none of that.
Dotting for the mind-blowing potential of this train of thought.
(˚O˚)...
-- C.
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However, the hint is that Rovagug's prison isn't inside Golarion - it's actually outside the entire Great Beyond.
The main problem I have with that is that we have evidence of Ravagug's dramatic imprisonment in the form of the star towers, where Zon-Kuthon stitched the world back together.
..actually... that's conflicting information.
Zon-Kuthon sided with the other gods against Rovagug, who planned to destroy the world. The Rough Beast and his minions were caged within the earth, and Zon-Kuthon stitched it shut.
and
Once the Rough Beast was imprisoned, the surviving gods nursed their wounds and returned to their homes in the Great Beyond. During this time new gods emerged, such as Shelyn, sister of Dou-Bral. For unknown reasons they quarreled, and Dou-Bral went beyond to the spaces between the planes and was transformed by something outside of reality called Zon-Kuthon.
Fey and the First Worlders with their Gods. Yes. Please.
Creative Director
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The main problem I have with that is that we have evidence of Ravagug's dramatic imprisonment in the form of the star towers, where Zon-Kuthon stitched the world back together.The article didn't deny that Rovagug was bodily imprissoned via the Pit of Gormuz in Golarion - it implied that, rather than the Dead Vault being located somehow inside Golarion, it is actually so vast as to encapsulate the entire multiverse. In the end it's a matter of semantics, because when you're talking about where a demiplane is located, you can only talk in abstracts. Regardless the info fell in line with this topic so I mentioned it.
Also, considering that the author of the Qlippoth article is James Jacobs and he's the Creative Director behind the PF world, it carries some definite weight. He may have thrown that tidbit in as a mcguffin, but the fact that he included it at all is interesting.
And sometimes we deliberately create somewhat conflicting content when it comes to things like the nature of reality, ancient pre-divine history, and what's outside of the Outer Sphere. On purpose. Because that keeps things mysterious, and keeps folks trying to piece together the actual answers which engages the mind and curiosity much more than simply telling folks how things are.
AKA: It was more fun to watch Lost when you didn't know the answers.
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I've always dug the idea that Rovagug might well be one of Golarion's Great Old Ones. Each world seems to have a few, who awaken briefly to try and destroy their world only to be bound away by powerful gods and magic.
The idea that the doorway to his prison is a portal to a demiplane outside the Great Spheres is interesting--as is the idea that the void between worlds seems to be a porous membrane between our universe and the Outer Beyond (a lot of what I've read locates the Dark Tapestry within the "space" part of the Material Universe, which would suggest natural portals akin to the portals you get to Elemental Planes from areas with strong elemental traits--volcanic vents to fire or deep sea trenches to water).
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The Great Old Ones do not want your worship. They do not need your patronage. They will only grant you power if it advances their cause. For in the end, all they wish is for you to die.
There's an interesting hint in the recent Qlippoth article. Long story short, Rovagug is a Qlippoth god and is currently sealed inside the Dead Vault, which is (metaphorically?) contained at the center of Golarion. However, the hint is that Rovagug's prison isn't inside Golarion - it's actually outside the entire Great Beyond. Thus, according this theory, the entire multiverse is actually inside Rovagug's Dead Vault, and not the other way around...
Not sure I'm with you entirely on this. I think it's more likely that the Dead Vault is outside the Great Beyond in the sense that it's a discreet prison "out there" somewhere in the ooky stuff in the Outer Beyond rather than it necessarily be an even bigger sphere surrounding EVERYTHING--if for no other reason than it would mean we'd be locked in with him. I figure the gods probably created a cage demiplane somewhere outside the Great Beyond that was connected to the world via a gate on Golarion, which they then sealed to keep Rovagug inside and so as to prevent the icky crud on the other side from backwashing into the universe. I guess the idea was that you couldn't put Rovagug into any physical prison he couldn't just eat through--so instead they portaled him to a prison where if he ate through it, nobody cared because it was deep within the Dark Tapestry.
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The Great Old Ones do not want your worship. They do not need your patronage. They will only grant you power if it advances their cause. For in the end, all they wish is for you to die.
Sorta'. Most are imprisoned and want to be released and/or want humans to breed with, drive crazy, turn into puppets and the like. Some, like Nyarlathotep seem to actively crave mortal interaction. Most of the blind, idiotic ones seem to be Outer Gods.
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So you're saying Nyarlathotep just wants hugs?
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Also, there's a separate implication in the devourer article in Undead Revisited. Not so much an implication as a stated fact actually. In short, devourers are beings that have been warped in a place beyond the known multiverse, a place that "...is not merely the darkness and strange voids between distant stars on the Material Plane, but something fundamentally different—a beyond for the Great Beyond."
Hey, somebody caught that one! :)
It's also deliberately vague enough that you can read many things into it, and what exactly it's saying. At least one of the names dropped therein has also been referenced elsewhere, also itself an intentional mystery.
FWIW, I wouldn't read anything with respect to Zon-Kuthon there, at least that wasn't the intention on my part, but as with all intentionally vague mythology, it may be clarified by anyone else in future sources, James or otherwise :)
So you're saying Nyarlathotep just wants hugs?
Well, if by hugs you mean personally visiting the world in the form of Pharoahs or old black jazz musicians and then insidiously manipulating folks toward catastrope...than yeah, he loves hugs.
Craving interaction doesn't make him nice...just interested. Like the way Asmodeus is interested.
I prefer the idea that the mythos gods are by products of the creation of the universe.
With regard to one of the names dropped elsewhere, do you mean Tegressin? Or one of the beings that may have created devourers? Because I know plenty about the Laughing Fiend, but I don't remember reading about the Dire Sheppherd or Wanderer Upon the Stair anywhere else.
BotD3 briefly references the Shepherd in the books on daemons section, without giving any specific information on him/her/it. The book discusses daemons and pretty much every other soul-devouring monster out there, and how to create many of them. Read into it whatever you wish.
And Tegresin is Tegresin, whatever the heck he might be. ;)
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The Great Old Ones do not want your worship. They do not need your patronage. They will only grant you power if it advances their cause. For in the end, all they wish is for you to die.
The Great Old Ones do not want our worship, correct. They do not need our patronage, correct.
However, the Great Old Ones do not grant power. The Great Old Ones shed power, and some have figured out how to harness this excreta. An ant may feel that man has dropped a sweet to feed her colony, but man has only "given" this boon accidentally, and the ant only keeps its gift because man does not care that he lost something of his. We are but ants to the Great Old Ones.
The Great Old Ones do not wish us to die. The Great Old Ones do not even think about us, save when we directly bring ourselves to their attention. Man does not think of the life and death drama of an ant colony in his back yard; the millions of births and deaths and the wars between colonies do not even register on his radar, except as, perhaps, a few minutes amused observation as he goes about his day. Should the ants invade his pantry, should they be somewhere inconvenient for him, man will kill the ants, but only the pettiest man wishes for their death, rather than simply causing it as quickly as possible before returning to his business. We are but ants to the Great Old Ones.
Well, if by hugs you mean personally visiting the world in the form of Pharaohs or old black jazz musiciansOr Hitler.
Or a hideous amalgam of all the PCs' fathers.
The Great Old Ones do not want your worship. They do not need your patronage. They will only grant you power if it advances their cause. For in the end, all they wish is for you to die.The Great Old Ones do not want our worship, correct. They do not need our patronage, correct.
However, the Great Old Ones do not grant power. The Great Old Ones shed power, and some have figured out how to harness this excreta. An ant may feel that man has dropped a sweet to feed her colony, but man has only "given" this boon accidentally, and the ant only keeps its gift because man does not care that he lost something of his. We are but ants to the Great Old Ones.
The Great Old Ones do not wish us to die. The Great Old Ones do not even think about us, save when we directly bring ourselves to their attention. Man does not think of the life and death drama of an ant colony in his back yard; the millions of births and deaths and the wars between colonies do not even register on his radar, except as, perhaps, a few minutes amused observation as he goes about his day. Should the ants invade his pantry, should they be somewhere inconvenient for him, man will kill the ants, but only the pettiest man wishes for their death, rather than simply causing it as quickly as possible before returning to his business. We are but ants to the Great Old Ones.
So what you're saying is that we should swarm our military against them to win? ()
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So what you're saying is that we should swarm our military against them to win? ()
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Maybe if we got some servitors to write "SOME HUMAN" in very large letters in the corner of the planet? ^.^
We might be just as alien to them, then. :)
EDIT: also, cappadocious, given that the gods are known to be "idiot gods", it's not likely that they're going to use Leiningen's intelligence to win. :)
EDIT 2: and we'd make a heckofathing of our "the end"!
EDIT 3: Gah, I can't find it; I was looking for an article I read recently (sometime within the last couple of years) that detailed how ants have more advanced understandings of spacial physics than most humans and can accomplish amazing things. I was planning on having a link with a title something like, "good thing we're smarter than ants then... oh wait", but since I couldn't find it, I figure I'd mention it now. :)
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The Great Old Ones do not want your worship. They do not need your patronage. They will only grant you power if it advances their cause. For in the end, all they wish is for you to die.The Great Old Ones do not want our worship, correct. They do not need our patronage, correct.
However, the Great Old Ones do not grant power. The Great Old Ones shed power, and some have figured out how to harness this excreta. An ant may feel that man has dropped a sweet to feed her colony, but man has only "given" this boon accidentally, and the ant only keeps its gift because man does not care that he lost something of his. We are but ants to the Great Old Ones.
The Great Old Ones do not wish us to die. The Great Old Ones do not even think about us, save when we directly bring ourselves to their attention. Man does not think of the life and death drama of an ant colony in his back yard; the millions of births and deaths and the wars between colonies do not even register on his radar, except as, perhaps, a few minutes amused observation as he goes about his day. Should the ants invade his pantry, should they be somewhere inconvenient for him, man will kill the ants, but only the pettiest man wishes for their death, rather than simply causing it as quickly as possible before returning to his business. We are but ants to the Great Old Ones.
99% agree. That remaining 1% is Nyarlathotep, who does actually seem to have some perverse interest in seeding discord amongst the ants/mortals. Perhaps he's a psychopath even by Outer God standards....perhaps he's just a bratty kid Outer God who likes to burn us with the magnifying glass, or perhaps he has some more sinister agenda...
At any rate his disturbing lack of indifference is what makes him the Mythos' most dangerous entity.
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99% agree. That remaining 1% is Nyarlathotep, who does actually seem to have some perverse interest in seeding discord amongst the ants/mortals. Perhaps he's a psychopath even by Outer God standards....perhaps he's just a bratty kid Outer God who likes to burn us with the magnifying glass, or perhaps he has some more sinister agenda...
At any rate his disturbing lack of indifference is what makes him the Mythos' most dangerous entity.
Nyarlathotep is *our* Outer God. The rest are aliens and post-singularity nightmares and pulsating nuclear chaos, but *we* made Nyarlathotep. It's why he's so sweet on us.
It seems every Great Old One is an ascended form of another mythos race. Cthulhu is a Star Spawn. Dagon is a Deep One. Sutter Kain is a human (Do you read Sutter Kain?) They seem to match up fairly well. There's a whole list of them.
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It seems every Great Old One is an ascended form of another mythos race. Cthulhu is a Star Spawn. Dagon is a Deep One. Sutter Kain is a human (Do you read Sutter Kain?) They seem to match up fairly well. There's a whole list of them.
Of course, the way it's generally written in the stories by Lovecraft himself, Cthulhu (for example) is not really singled out as being any more personally powerful than any of the other members of his race.
Really? That's interesting. I haven't read nearly enough of the original stories--mostly August Derleth and Clark Ashton Smith (and quite a few movies--like Dagon and In the Mouth of Madness).
Truth be told, most of the Mythos lore I know comes from the various editions of the RPG. So a lot of lore ranks, but little of it is original research.
The truth is Rovagug is Stephen King's IT.
Or maybe the Rough Beast dwells deep inside the Cage of Golarion, where the Rough Beast was imprisoned long ago, but the Rough Beast also exists as an infinite monstrosity spiraling on forever in the realm beyond the Great Beyond.
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Or maybe the Rough Beast dwells deep inside the Cage of Golarion, where the Rough Beast was imprisoned long ago, but the Rough Beast also exists as an infinite monstrosity spiraling on forever in the realm beyond the Great Beyond.There's a scene at the end of Men In Black where it turns out our entire universe is contained in what amounts to a toy snowglobe carried around by some alien kid. Rovagug is that alien kid, but instead of playing with the snowglobe, he's trying to shatter it. And that's why we can't have nice things.
Personally, that's my theory on Nyarlathotep. He's not created by us; we were created by him as an accident or as a game. We resemble him, rather than him resembling us - the Black Man and the Pharaoh are pre-human. When some truly alien being sees us: they recoil in horror: we are as the Spawn is to Cthulhu - a image of a terrible god.
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I've not read loads of Lovecraft but I was under the impression that his creations were from another reality... which makes them more alien than gods from another universe.
Although, that may mostly come from reading I, Cthulhu
I've not read loads of Lovecraft but I was under the impression that his creations were from another reality... which makes them more alien than gods from another universe.
Although, that may mostly come from reading I, Cthulhu
The thing to remember about Gaiman, much as I love his writing, is he doesn't really do existential despair. I have only ever read one of his pieces that really came close to the kind of soul-hollowing 'uugh' that Lovcraft seemed to live in. That was a short story in the Fragile Things collection.
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"Tiny, tiny mortal soul, you come before me, seeking answers? Very well, I am feeling generous, and Mephistopheles' report is not due for another few minutes.
Your piddling magics, vaunted as they may be by the standards of men, allowed you to descend through the Pit of Gormuz, past the guardians, the traps, the things which watch without eyes, the bloodbreathers, and all the other horrors there. And at the bottom, where you hoped to find the prison of the Rough Beast so that you could throw it open and slay him with that weapon you created, you instead found nothing but a cold, empty room.
So where was Rovagug? Where was the destroyer that even the gods feared, if not in the hole you were always told he was in?
Oh yes, as long as the locks are kept, we are safe from the Rough Beast. He can not find us, not after Sarenrae blinded him, Torag made the Cage, and Zon-Kuthon stitched him back up.
Is it dawning on you mortal? We are IN the Rough Beast. Everything you may find in this life and the next, worlds, stars, planes of existance. All bundled up into a safe little ball, which we snuck down his gullet in a moment of distraction. Perhaps we float in the acids of his stomach, or perhaps we are but a single speck caught in the pumping torrents of his blood. I can't exactly say, I could never see enough of him to get a good guess at just how big he was.
And now you know the truth. Does it bring you comfort, mortal?"
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"Tiny, tiny mortal soul, you come before me, seeking answers? Very well, I am feeling generous, and Mephistopheles' report is not due for another few minutes.
Your piddling magics, vaunted as they may be by the standards of men, allowed you to descend through the Pit of Gormuz, past the guardians, the traps, the things which watch without eyes, the bloodbreathers, and all the other horrors there. And at the bottom, where you hoped to find the prison of the Rough Beast so that you could throw it open and slay him with that weapon you created, you instead found nothing but a cold, empty room.
So where was Rovagug? Where was the destroyer that even the gods feared, if not in the hole you were always told he was in?
Oh yes, as long as the locks are kept, we are safe from the Rough Beast. He can not find us, not after Sarenrae blinded him, Torag made the Cage, and Zon-Kuthon stitched him back up.
Is it dawning on you mortal? We are IN the Rough Beast. Everything you may find in this life and the next, worlds, stars, planes of existance. All bundled up into a safe little ball, which we snuck down his gullet in a moment of distraction. Perhaps we float in the acids of his stomach, or perhaps we are but a single speck caught in the pumping torrents of his blood. I can't exactly say, I could never see enough of him to get a good guess at just how big he was.
And now you know the truth. Does it bring you comfort, mortal?"
No. It does not bring me comfort. I weep for my lost sanity.
The truth is Rovagug is Stephen King's IT.
** spoiler omitted **
Or maybe the Rough Beast dwells deep inside the Cage of Golarion, where the Rough Beast was imprisoned long ago, but the Rough Beast also exists as an infinite monstrosity spiraling on forever in the realm beyond the Great Beyond.
Heh. IT in Golarion would be awesome! Then again there's a lot of stuff that would be fun to have show up in game. I've always thought throwing a predator hunting party would be cool in the steamy Mwangi jungles. The blob would be fun too.
Not really comforted, more bugged by this idea that gods are these weird blobby things whose innards look like Great Beyonds. The gods have shown up in Golarion, even died at the hands of liches who live there. They have physical domains in the Outer Sphere where they actually hold court among their worshippers. Tiny tiny mortal souls like us can go into one end of a dungeon and end up Cayden Caylean or Norgorber or Aroden. Heck by their own bootstraps they can be Irori or Nethys. So I really think it's not so much that gods are so much more cosmic and alien than us--it's that on a good day they're only a step beyond the best of us and so they cower in their heavens and strike at us from a distance. That's what angels and devils are, didn't you know? A glovebox for dealing with the most dangerous of all creatures--us. Let them send their clerics and thaumaturists and Red Mantis assassins, we still reman the single greatest boon or threat to any god. Don't believe it? Ask Kyuss all about it sometime...and send him my regards.
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I do look forward to killing Cthulhu when Mythic comes out.
Well, jeez, this makes things so depressing and miserable that it makes me not like the Golarion setting.
Well, jeez, this makes things so depressing and miserable that it makes me not like the Golarion setting.
Well the thing that you have to keep in mind with Pathfinder is that EVERYTHING is true. Earth is out there somewhere. So are grey aliens, Vulcans, Cloverfield, predators, xenomorphs, Gozer the Gozarian. Any product from any fictional universe is fair game. So Pathfinder is a big place. What this means is that while yes, Lovecraft is true, so are all the other mythoi as well.
Get too depressed--throw in some superheroes, or go fight daleks.