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There is a demo, and it can get very expensive to have all the books. The demo doesn't let you save or print, and only includes some of the books.
Should be a link on here for it. link
http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab
I use ScoreForge which works great although it requires Excel. I have used HeroLabs on a friends computer but found it to be too pricy for my personal taste (although if you do not mind the cost it is a great program).
Does PCGen not fit the bill? It is very complete, supports archetypes and everything. Only the few most recent books, like the ARG, aren't in it yet. And because it can do anything, it's not quite simple. But I find it's not any harder than it needs to be.
You can control what sources you're using, so if you only want Core + APG, you can dramatically reduce the amount of stuff you need to wade through.
I have personally had issues with PCGen....but thats just me.
There's always some bug that still needs to be fixed, but I think that's true for any big char gen tool that calculates everything for you. But overriding PCGen's rules or adding homebrew stuff is definitely hard with PCGen. Not impossible, but it definitely gets technical.
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The current version of PCGen works great! I would suggest giving it a try for yourself. It is located here : Link.
It is much faster now and the UI is great. The folks who write it frequent the boards here and can help with any questions. The new interface has a nice summary page that tells you exactly what needs to be done to complete the character, like needing to add skills, picking favored class, choosing a feat, etc.
I would suggest checking this thread for any questions you have that may already be answered: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p55p?PCGen-v6000-Released
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I also recommend PcGen. The new version works great, and their community is very active so if you have problems it is easy to find answers. Also, it costs $Free.99 so you can't argue with that.
I bought HeroLabs Pathfinder Core and the APG and went back to PcGen. I disliked the stupidly restrictive licensing of HeroLabs (I want to install it on my work computer, home laptop and my desktop. I can only install on 2). I also found it very pricey. Third, I cannot customize it. I can customize PcGen pretty easily. It runs through Java using .LST files which are glorified text files and easy to work with. Lastly, HeroLabs runs slower than PcGen.
As to your original question, yes PcGen can handle archtypes.
Overall, I think PcGen is a superior product, but to each their own. Try both and go with what you like!
I use PcGen. Not without its bugs, but pretty adaptable.
It got much better after I started opening up character files to add in new sources as they came out. I haven't found a way in PCGEN to edit character sources other then modifying the character files.
Biggest outstanding bug:
The adopted racial trait still gives a racial trait, not a background trait with the racial descriptor. That's made it through a lot of iterations. (I guess I should gripe on the PCGEN boards, or help them fix it :) )
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I used PCGen for a very long time, but it ultimately frustrated me. There is no official support for it, though it has a strong community, and it's easy to customize things to a point. I ended up seeking alternatives when it became too difficult to reliably customize it and keep my customizations separate from the default and consistent between my desktop and laptop.
HeroLab is perfect though, at least for my uses. It comes preset to use PFS rules, and is insanely easy to customize and add new things to. I maintain a unique campaign setting I carried over from 2nd edition to 3.x and now into pathfinder and had no trouble creating my own ethnicities, languages, races, classes and magic items. It also allows me to easily switch between building for my home game's campaign setting and PFS.
Between the two, it really depend on how you plan on using it. If you just need basic rules, never need any odd books or the newest books and don't plan on adding many custom items, pcgen is probably best. If you need to work through a lot of custom items, just have any new books and everything from at least a few non-core supplements (such as APs), or if you play PFS and need to switch between that and homebrew games, I'd go with HeroLab.
If you just don't want to spend money and/or just need something to do the math for you, pcgen would win again.
I use Herolab and like it alot, but as stated it can get expensive to own all the books and the pathfinder # books and extra little stuff here and there.. Ive have it all and id say im in over 200 dollars total..
It got much better after I started opening up character files to add in new sources as they came out. I haven't found a way in PCGEN to edit character sources other then modifying the character files.
There's an easy fix for this Tangaroa. Load PCGen, load the sources that you want to be attached with the character, then click on Tools > Preferences > Sources. Uncheck "Autoload Sources with PC". Open your character then save it. All the sources loaded will be selected as sources with that character. You can then either check the autoload or simply leave it unselected and always load those sources before loading the character.
The adopted racial trait still gives a racial trait, not a background trait with the racial descriptor. That's made it through a lot of iterations. (I guess I should gripe on the PCGEN boards, or help them fix it :) )
Umm, what's the difference?
I used PCGen for a very long time, but it ultimately frustrated me. There is no official support for it, though it has a strong community, and it's easy to customize things to a point. I ended up seeking alternatives when it became too difficult to reliably customize it and keep my customizations separate from the default and consistent between my desktop and laptop.
HeroLab is perfect though, at least for my uses. It comes preset to use PFS rules, and is insanely easy to customize and add new things to. I maintain a unique campaign setting I carried over from 2nd edition to 3.x and now into pathfinder and had no trouble creating my own ethnicities, languages, races, classes and magic items. It also allows me to easily switch between building for my home game's campaign setting and PFS.
Between the two, it really depend on how you plan on using it. If you just need basic rules, never need any odd books or the newest books and don't plan on adding many custom items, pcgen is probably best. If you need to work through a lot of custom items, just have any new books and everything from at least a few non-core supplements (such as APs), or if you play PFS and need to switch between that and homebrew games, I'd go with HeroLab.
A) What would you call "official" support?
B) What do you need to customize that can't be done now?
C) How were you making your custom content to transport it from computer to computer? Were you following the instructions in the documentation on creating your own encapulated dataset via the LST classes? Or why not put PCGen on a 1-2GB flash drive and transport it that way.
D) PCGen also has the PFS rules, load the "Guide To Pathfinder Society Organised Play 4.0" it's stll in a alpha state, but if the users report any errors it will get better.
E) You can easily switch between your home campaign and the PFS rules (especially in 6.0.0) Load the sources you want for your PFS character, and either make a new char (or select your old character). In the Preferences > Sources > Select the "Autoload Sources with PC" (default in 6.0.0)
F) What odd books? Would any on this list count? http://pcgen.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pcgen/Trunk/pcgen/docs/acknowledgme nts/publishersandsources.html#sources
3. runs on java so has the usual the usual speed issues.
Try the latest version LaserX :) I just timed them using just the core Pathfinder sets.
PCGen loaded and selected new character it took 22.35 seconds.
With Herolab it took 28.40 seconds.
I have personally had issues with PCGen....but thats just me.
What issues, can we help correct them?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Nylan: I can't add traits from the Pathfinder Guide to Organized Play. I was going to create a custom trait (+1, Diplomacy is a Class Skill), but I couldn't figure out how to do it. I also couldn't figure out how to just make Diplomacy a class skill and give myself a +1, then type in the trait name later.
Thanks for the sources tip.
The adopted racial trait still gives a racial trait, not a background trait with the racial descriptor. That's made it through a lot of iterations. (I guess I should gripe on the PCGEN boards, or help them fix it :) )Umm, what's the difference?
The difference is one is a racial feature, one is the bonus half feat.
When you select adopted (gnome) it should, for example, give access to the Animal Friend race trait, not Gnome Magic or the Illusion Resistance racial feature (also called a trait, unfortunately). Currently, adopted enables the wrong one.
When I select adopted dwarf, it should enable traits like Goldsniffer, NOT Hardy.
The Only Sheet+
Its awesome. I've been using it exclusively for years. they also have an active forum with free add-ins, help, and PbP. Access to some of the Forum is free to all, but the add-ins, etc come with a subscription.
http://theonlysheet.com/homepage/
http://theonlysheet.com/homepage/purchase.shtml
Its $10 or $20 depending on if you want a forum subscription, which I highly recommend.
I like both sCoreForge and PC Gen. Make sure for both you get the latest version -- especially PC Gen, the latest version is really worth checking out.
I don't like HeroLab as much--it's hard to put my finger on it, but there's something about the GUI I don't like, and I am fully with ZanzerTem on the way they handle licensing and fees and such. I use HeroLab for M&M but stick to sCoreForge and PC Gen for Pathfinder.
But I'll also note that sCoreForge and PC Gen are free, and HeroLab has a free demo mode. So there's no reason you can't download all three and see for yourself which works best for you.
Same goes for any generator that's either free or offers a demo.
PC Gen if you are looking at CRB & APG.
3. runs on java so has the usual the usual speed issues.
Try the latest version LaserX :) I just timed them using just the core Pathfinder sets.
PCGen loaded and selected new character it took 22.35 seconds.
With Herolab it took 28.40 seconds.
How about with additional Pathfinder sets loaded? With Hero Lab, we *always* load *all* the Pathfinder sources, since they are all compiled into a single body of data for performance. So the load time you just quoted is for loading *everything* in Hero Lab - not just the core files.
From your numbers, it appears that PCGen is now faster than Hero Lab for just the core data set. But the moment you start adding in the other sets, PCGen load times escalate rapidly and I believe Hero Lab still vastly outperforms PCGen for even a nominal number of sources.
If you want to be fair and not misleading with your comparison, please also do a load with *all* the Pathfinder sources for PCGen and provide those numbers here. However, you'll still need to extrapolate further to determine how long PCGen would take to load the remaining sources it doesn't yet have and that Hero Lab is already loading. At that point, you'll have a fair and accurate comparison of the loading times of the two products. :)
I'm not going to wade into the "which is better" debate, as I'll let the demo version of Hero Lab stand for itself as the best way for anyone to make their own independent assessment. However, I can't sit by idly when numbers are used inappropriately as a basis for comparison.
For anybody making an assessment between the various tools, take the time to do a test drive of each! Many of the reasons people prefer one tool over another are purely personal taste, and their tastes aren't necessarily the same as yours. So compare the tools and make your own assessment based on what works best for you!
I'll simply end this on the note that Paizo has announced it is standardizing on Hero Lab in-house, and there are thousands of Pathfinder players using Hero Lab, so there must be reasons they all chose Hero Lab over the other options. Make your own assessment.
Yes I completely agree Rob, everyone should definitely try all the tools and select the one that they feel most comfortable with.
Rob, I have HL for the ShadowRun rules, haven't purchased the Pathfinder ruleset. So even though I haven't purchased the licenses the database includes all the data from the books? I will definitely run a more accurate test then.
Updated load times
Herolab it took 28.40 seconds (loads entire database).
There's two sets of times for PCGen
Datasets loaded
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Magic
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Player's Guide
Paizo - Inner Sea Primer
Paizo - Carrion Crown Player's Guide
Paizo - Council of Thieves Player's Guide
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne, Chapter 1: Edge of Anarchy
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne, Chapter 2: Seven Days to the Grave
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne, Chapter 3: Escape from Old Korvosa
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne, Chapter 4: A History of Ashes
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne, Chapter 5: Skeletons of Scarwall
Paizo - Curse of the Crimson Throne, Chapter 6: Crown of Fangs
Paizo - Jade Regent Player's Guide Paizo - Kingmaker Player's Guide
Paizo - Legacy of Fire Player's Guide (Conversion)
Paizo - Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Paizo - Critical Fumble Deck
Paizo - Dark Markets: A Guide to Katapesh (Conversion)
Paizo - Dragon Empires Gazetteer
Paizo - Dwarves of Golarion
Paizo - Faiths of Purity
Paizo - Guide To Pathfinder Society Organised Play 4.0
Paizo - Guide to the River Kingdoms
Paizo - Heart of the Jungle
Paizo - Inner Sea Primer
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Player's Guide
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 2
Paizo - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bonus Bestiary
Paizo - Pirates of the Inner Sea
Paizo - Princes of Darkness, Book of the Damned Vol. I
Paizo - Qadira, Gateway to the East
Paizo - Sargava, the Lost Colony
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition Player's Guide
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords, Chapter 1: Burnt Offerings
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords, Chapter 2: The Skinsaw Murders
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords, Chapter 3: The Hook Mountain Massacre
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords, Chapter 4: Fortress of the Stone Giants
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords, Chapter 5: Sins of the Saviors
Paizo - Rise of the Runelords, Chapter 6: Spires of Xin-Shalast
Paizo - Second Darkness Player's Guide
Paizo - Second Darkness, Chapter 1: Shadow in the Sky
Paizo - Second Darkness, Chapter 2: Children of the Void
Paizo - Second Darkness, Chapter 3: The Armageddon Echo
Paizo - Second Darkness, Chapter 4: Endless Night
Paizo - Second Darkness, Chapter 5: A Memory of Darkness
Paizo - Second Darkness, Chapter 6: Descent into Midnight
Paizo - Serpent's Skull Player's Guide
DSP - Psionics Unleashed
DSP - Psionics Expanded - Find the Mark
DSP - Psionics Expanded - Mind over Body
DSP - Psionics Expanded - Unlimited Possibilities
Eclipse - The Codex Persona
(PF) 101 1st Level Spells
Super Genius Games - Krazy Kragnar's Alchemical Surplus Shop]Load of datasets
Load time from starting program (including selecting the datasets): 2:37min
Load time if they are already selected from a previous session: 37.28 seconds.
So yes HL does still seem to be faster (Grrrr), but PCGen is LOADS better than it was. :)
It's interesting the Dreamscarred Press Unlimited Possibilities seemed to have a longer load time than other sets. There might be some errors in that one I should dig into.
Edit: since I was curious I loaded up 5.16.3, 5.16.4, & 5.17.7 Here's the load times for equivilent sets was as follows
5.16.3 - 3+ min
5.16.4 - 2:38 min
5.17.7 - 2:47 min
Yes I completely agree Rob, everyone should definitely try all the tools and select the one that they feel most comfortable with.
Rob, I have HL for the ShadowRun rules, haven't purchased the Pathfinder ruleset. So even though I haven't purchased the licenses the database includes all the data from the books? I will definitely run a more accurate test then.
Sort of. It's not quite that simple due to the compiler. All the data files are included in the download. All the files get processed during the compilation, but not all of them are actually compiled into the finished result - that depends on what access your license dictates. After that, the compiled files load ultra-fast.
Here's how things work on my machine, where I have everything licensed:
* 3-second delay with splash screen at startup before "select game" window appears
* For an initial load of brand new files that requires everything to be compiled: 6 seconds (approx) to compile plus 2 seconds to "Load Game" plus 2 seconds to "Build UI" (10 seconds total)
* On all subsequent loads of the same data files, the compilation has already been performed, so the load consists of 2 seconds to "Load Game" plus 2 seconds to "Build UI" (4 seconds total)
So for me, with absolutely everything licensed, it takes 10 seconds to load the first time and process everything, including compiling the files. Every time after that, it takes 4 seconds to load everything. Note that these numbers do not include the 3-second delay during startup to show the splash screen and then prompt the user to select the game system to use. So you could call it 13 and 7 if you want to include that time for comparison.
Obviously, these numbers will be different for your system based on its performance characteristics, so these numbers aren't valid for comparison to the PCGen numbers you cited above. They are intended as illustrative of how things work with Hero Lab.
Your system spent 28 seconds doing the initial compile and load of the Hero Lab files that first time. Based on my numbers, I'm guessing the compile time was probably about 18-20 seconds of that. The compilation process excised all of the sources that aren't licensed. So on your *next* load, you'll only get the core data files in their compiled state. My guess is that loading the same Pathfinder files a second time on your computer will now take less than 10 seconds, since you'll now be loading the compiled version of the files, which is vastly faster. On my system, the compile process took 60+% of the initial load time.
Our assumption is that users will be loading the same files many times, so we automatically compile the files when they are changed. The compile process takes a bit of time. However, all subsequent loads are vastly faster for a significantly improved user experience.
Hope this explanation helps! If anything here is confusing or unclear, please let me know and I'll do my best to clarify. :)
Yes that is exactly how I was comparing it Rob. From initial double click on the icon to when you could start working on a character for both programs. Herolab is still faster, and the switching between the tabs in after the character was started was comparable, (although I think the speed might have been slightly in HL's favor here also)
I should note that my system is about 5 years old so it's a bit elderly.
Updated load times
There's two sets of times for PCGen
Load time from starting program (including selecting the datasets): 2:37min
Load time if they are already selected from a previous session: 37.28 seconds.So yes HL does still seem to be faster (Grrrr), but PCGen is LOADS better than it was. :)
The improvements made in PCGen 6.0 were significant. No question about that. The UI has greatly improved and the performance is now vastly better, so the dev team definitely took things up a notch with this release.
However, in terms of raw performance, I honestly don't think it's possible for a Java-based tool to compare favorably with a native application. Once you reload Hero Lab and see the sub-10-second times I outline above, the question of comparative performance should be put to rest.
That shouldn't really be a concern for you guys, though. As long as the performance is "good enough" to not be a major distraction for users, then you're fine. The old 3-minute loads were a huge distraction and source of frustration, but 40 seconds is into the realm of acceptable, especially for the price point you guys charge.
There's always going to be a cost for everything. Users can "pay" in cash, in time, in frustration, in limitations, in usability, whatever. That's why PCGen has a loyal following the same way Hero Lab, sCoreForge, and others do. Every user has different priorities and is more willing to "pay" in different ways. That's why we make the demo version of Hero Lab available. It's critical that users try out the different options and decide which ones best fit their personal criteria and how they choose to "pay" the costs of character creation. This includes those who choose to stick with pencil and paper, which has its own "costs". Everyone needs to decide what's best for their own situation. :)
Does The Only Sheet work with OpenOffice?
TOS+ is an Excel 2007+ workbook which relies on the VBA component, which is not available in OpenOffice or other Excel clone apps.
TOS+ is compatible with both D&D3.5 and Pathfinder. Book wise, it INCLUDES the Core rule book, the APG and the Ultimate Equipment. Both Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat are currently being added/integrated (about half done on both - see the progress report HERE).
Those with active subscription can simply download updates as they are regularly posted on the Community Forum.
On a side note, a new video was released which shows TOS+'s new ToolTips feature. Click HERE to watch.
Hi Folks,
I poke my head in here in-frequently. However, I'd like to say I take exception to the 'lack of official support' for PCGen. I've been with the project since 2005. Anyone and everyone that jumps on our Yahoo Groups, Facebook Page, opens a Bug report, or emails me direct, is usually responded to promptly by myself or another person (If it's not within my purview). I also bend over backwards to make our users happy. If that means pushing out a book faster or getting a particular class up for them, then that is what I do. Gunslinger was a request of a few people awhile back. Sadly, we don't have early access to books, so we don't begin work on the books till after it's released.
As for the bugs, yes, we have our fair share of bugs. And if I could push perfect software, I'd be in heaven. Sadly, bugs come from all sorts of variables - java version changes, imperfect code, etc. However, aside from that, if you report a bug, I assure you all, that myself and our wonderful team of volunteers work to squash it dead. ;)
It's awesome to see Nylanfs in here. He does forward any concerns posted here and we address them as best we can. Pathfinder is a wonderful system. And I'm sure we can all agree, it's complicated to implement due to how much it needs to be able to do. I'm proud of the work we've managed to do to make it as easy as possible for Pathfinder users to use. I've heard some complaints, but if you don't give feedback, we can't improve there. I noted the adopted. I just learned about that myself and we've gone to correct that (Too many things with the same name sadly).
I want to express my heartfelt gratitude to our loyal supporters. Without you, we wouldn't have anything to do in our spare time. If you have a a concern, suggestion or problem, hit me up. I'm always available to any of our users day and night (Though, if I'm sleeping or working, you won't see a quick reply).
You can email me direct, I believe this is my official pcgen email address - admin@pcgen.org
And since it's close enough, Merry Christmas.
Cheers,
Than you for your wonderful generator and Merry Christmas qnd a Happy New Year to you!
Now off to try and figure out how to code in some stuff for PCGen...
I think he was talking about Paizo support, not OUR support :)
Although since we are the only generator program (AFAIK) to sign the Community Use Policy we are official. :)