I have a situation I want to put my players in but want to know how other people would deal with this situation.
Note: this game does not make use of XP. thus players are not motivated to fight thing just for the XP benefit.
also note: I have spoiler tagged the various parts of the encounter so please try not to meta your answers.
The party is level 10 or so. they are trying to get from point A to point B and are passing through a Region which is controlled by an organized community of giants ranging in CR from hill giants to rune Giants.
Shortly after entering this area which they will know to be ruled by Rune Giants with several smaller tribes of other kinds of giants as their subjects the party will be approached peacefully by a group of giants (probably a stone giant and 2 rune slave hill giants) who will inform the group that they have to pay a transit tax of some amount (say 500 to 1000 gold)
first question... how do you think the group would react to this?
The final question is... should I run this or should the party never be faced with situations they are not ultimately supposed to overcome through conflict.
...the party will be approached peacefully by a group of giants (probably a stone giant and 2 rune slave hill giants) who will inform the group that they have to pay a transit tax of some amount (say 500 to 1000 gold)
first question... how do you think the group would react to this?
I like the "peaceful" extortion going on :)
my groups motoo: "We come in peace, we come in peace. Shoot to kill, shoot to kill!" We would probably tell the envoy to F%&K OFF and if they didnt like our answer our group might end up killing them.
Here's my take,.....
First of all, as a player, I'd figure the giants were ripping me off and 1000 gp won't buy my safety. "Don't feed the bears" and all.
So, although I wouldn't attack the collectors unless they were directly threatening me, I'd definitely tell them to go eff themselves.
Secondly, if I was CR 17 rune giant, I would at least have within my employ a scryer of some sort and probably some ranger types who could hunt these upstarts down, collect them, and bring them to my throneroom to be shown the error of their rudeness i.e. not paying my good and just tax levys. If I wasn't this sophisticated, well,....I wouldn't have any business controlling vast tracts of land in a universe where wizardly power is relatively common, much less sending out proxys to shake down mid to high level adventurers trying to pass through said vast tracts of land.
They should definitely be chased by a powerful force sent by the leader of the land, unless they are able to thwart these hunters through cunning. I'd also consider it fair for the party to get some sort of knowledge rolls to know that the King of this land typically does this shakedown, what manner of badasses he sends after tax dodgers, and whether or not the 500 to 1000 g.p. actually guarantees safe passage acrpss his land.
unfortunately these lands are to be located in the Tien (asian) areas of the world. The players have crossed the north pole and entered the mountains moving south. due to previous happenings the party is not currently on the normal trade routs which is why they are being charged. Though I may allow the guide to say something like "I have never been in these lands and dont know much about it except that giants rule here. they are not particularly hostile and are known to trade fairly but do not encourage outsiders."
generally speaking its not unusual for a land to have roving bands of guards patrolling the boarders, these are generally not armies its a squad or platoon of people that just roam around and ensure that people entering their lands are peaceful and know the rules. it happens to be that the people of this land know perfectly well that the giants do not like company and charge a price for passage... unfortunately the party does not know this.
In many ways it is a test of alignment. The giants will not be hostile in any way, even if the party chooses not to pay and keep traveling in the giants lands THESE giants will not attack them they will just warn them that their lives are in their own hands. Any sense motive or discern lie type spells or checks will reveal honest dealings and neutral alignments. The giants are basing the price on the number of people in the party (4 players and 15 or so NPCs) and its their normal fee which other people in the land freely pay (thought they usually just avoid the region which is the intent) The giants simply expect a certain price for safe passage, their land their rules. (there are reasons in the background but I dont feel like writing out the whole back story as its mostly irrelevant to the party at this time.)
If the party (which includes a paladin) chooses to pay and move on peacefully that's a bump for lawful and good, If the party chooses to simply go around there is no change, if the party chooses to attack a peaceful envoy showing no hostility that's a bump for evil and possibly chaotic depending on their reasoning.
If they do pay I will likely have the giants offer them some kind of advice that may help them in the future but honestly the biggest benefit will be saving a game session or two and NOT wasting resources fighting the giants.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Who are you? What are you carrying? 1 Florin!" (from "Nothing Left to Do But Cry")
Paying some form of duty at border crossing wasn't unusual in the medieval or renaissance era. At the time indirect taxes were harder to implement so it was usual to have duty stations at the border of your territory and at the gates in city walls, so from the character point of view it would be normal (even if a bit pricey at 50 gp/person [but horses and carts normally pay a duty too]).
The problem is that for simplicity sake generally that kind of tax is generally hand waived when playing, assuming that it is part of the normal costs of living [under gamemastering], so most players react badly when they meet someone asking that kind of tariff.
I would say that most playing group will react very badly to the request and, being violent and well armed hobos, will try to kill the giants.
About running it up it depend on you group. They like internal consistency? Their actions having consequences? Or not?
With my group I would run it. I would say that there is a 70% chance that they will pay (mostly it will depend on how much money they have and on how credible the giants appear).
|
Hm. This one really depends on your group. I agree that morally speaking if the greeting party is non-hostile and detects as neutral and appears honest to sense motive or discern lies, it's absolutely moral to either pay the toll to pass through their lands or at least non-violently decline.
On the other hand, if your characters aren't made aware of the fact that tolls are not necessarily extortion in this setting and/or they're used to a lot of straightforward combat they might attack.
In general I think that parties should absolutely be faced with non-combat challenges at least once in a while.
Taken by itself, a toll of 500 gp is ridiculously high. Few adventurers will pay that without a really good explanation. If the giants say that they don't tolerate outsiders at all and would they please leave in peace, the PCs then ask if they can buy safe passage, and then the giants ask for 500 gp, then the chance of getting paid is a lot better. Possibly also if the giants explain that they don't tolerate heavily armed adventurers inside their borders, so they need to pay extra for that. Compare it with a country that allows another country's army to pass through their territory: toll could be a lot higher (or nothing at all of course, depending on who has more leverage).
In any case: give context. That always helps peaceful solutions. Also make sure they get some clue about how powerful the giants really are. It's not just a band of disorganized hill giants.
If, given all that information, the PCs decide to wage war on a country of giants, by all means show them the error of their ways. Giving the players agency is what it's all about. Their decisions should matter. That also means that their stupid decisions will have deadly consequences. Just make sure the have enough info that they should be able to know how stupid that decision is.
500gp (for a trade caravan) is not necessarily absurdly high, depending on the size of the land/ alternative routes and whether it is on a good trade route. Going through the Suez canal could also be considered "absurdly expensive", but is a no-brainer in most cases.
Also, the purpose here is not maximized tax income or 'fair tax' but discouraging outsiders. The toll then should be lower than the cost of fighting but higher than the (normal) cost of going around.
if it were my campaign, absolutely go for it. But if they get into fighting give them the option of escaping across the border and taking the long detour instead of TPK.
I would keep it at a per person amount. Add a weapon permit fee, if they are selling any loot then they must buy a vendors license. All of that adding up to 500gp. My players act reasonably 60% of the time when I make the world reasonable.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
That's what we normally call banditry. At best it's a "protection" racket. Refusing to knuckle under to bandits isn't chaotic/evil behavior.
And I can't think of any player I've ever played with who would just blithely pay 1000gp for safe passage. Adventurers guarantee their own safety, they don't pay other people to do it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I get on the Jersey Turn Pike and am charged a fee for traveling on that road is that banditry? If I want to cross the SanFran Bay bridge I have to pay a fee, is that extortion?
In the above cases the fee is small because they want you to pay the fee and use the passage. In this case they DONT want people to pass but if they must they have to pay a proper fee which they hope will discourages future passage.
I can understand if this were a bunch of guys in the hills outside Magnamar just demanding cash. But in this case its their land, the players are not on the normal trade rout that every one uses this is essentially private land, their custom is to not allow people on their land but if the people must cross then they have to be willing to pay a fee (note there is a reason why but the why is not relevant to the story)
If you enter a persons land and don't follow their rules, as long as those rules don't include conducting evil acts, that is at best not-lawful (thought not necessarily chaotic) if you attack people for doing their job when they are not being hostile toward you then that is flat out evil.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like "mcv"'s explanations for the high taxes. It makes sense. A lightly armed merchant caravan coming to trade in their main city will pay significantly less to travel here. But a heavily armed group of adventurers with nothing of real value to the giants should pay heavily. I wouldn't go higher than 500gp though. Maybe 400gp? 100 per PC and an additional 100 for their caravan. the amount should be roleplayed out though. "What you have no trade for us? You pay more!" Or something.
Before the PC's are approached and asked to pay, I suggest having the PC's pass by a heavily armed giant patrol. They give the group the stink eye while asking for proof of safe passage. Since the PC's do not have any, they warn the PC's to pay their dues at the next station or face repercussions. This will hint at the power of the giants and serve as a warning that if they don't pay with gold they may pay with their lives.
With a Paladin in the party, and 15 or so NPC's under his charge, I cannot see him NOT paying. It would not only be unlawful but would put innocents at risk for personal gain (retaining wealth). If the group, including the Paladin start edging toward the side of "Go F yourself" I suggest pulling the Paladin aside and telling him these things.
If your PC's still refuse to pay and want to tempt fate, then have fun unleashing hell on them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dark warrior makes another important point
I made the cost 500 to 1000 because thats not exactly breaking the bank for these characters. does it matter? sure, but is it critical? not at all.
The 500 to 1000 cost is purely a matter of making this a choice as opposed to a hand wave.
If the players pay and ask for information I will probably let them take a diplomacy check, possibly befriend the patrol and gain knowledge about the land and the city they are trying to get to. In fact if all goes well I would probably give them enough chat time to make valid knowledge local checks for the area since at this time they cant make such checks because they have no valid point of reference.
a benefit to not slaughtering by default.
the second part of the question is equally important.
this is ultimately not critical to the core story but should the players choice hostility they can quite possibly TPK.
do you think that players should be protected from these kinds of choices?
|
10th level party? 1000 gp is a rounding error.
If they look official (well dressed):
I'd pay the giants the 1000 gp, then invite them for a meal. Ask them about what the land is like, who rules and what dangers there are.But then, I'm the guy who suggests knocking on doors in an enemy lair. To ask for directions.
If they don't look official (eg: a hill giant and ogre thugs)
I'd aks them to pay me 1000 gp for their safety.
Ninja'd. My first thought when reading this was, "Why would a 10th level party not just pay it? It's hardly a dent."
But I have a bad habit of rolling Diplomancers. Most of my characters would perhaps try to negotiate the cost, but wouldn't refuse to pay.
And it's not really a protection racket, any more than your taxes paying for police are. The giants' land is dangerous, protecting outsiders incurs time an expense to them, and the outsiders have nothing worthwhile otherwise to give them in exchange for this passage. If they didn't charge the tax they would be run ragged by saving everybody's bacon with no compensation.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
If I get on the Jersey Turn Pike and am charged a fee for traveling on that road is that banditry? If I want to cross the SanFran Bay bridge I have to pay a fee, is that extortion?
In the above cases the fee is small because they want you to pay the fee and use the passage. In this case they DONT want people to pass but if they must they have to pay a proper fee which they hope will discourages future passage.
I can understand if this were a bunch of guys in the hills outside Magnamar just demanding cash. But in this case its their land, the players are not on the normal trade rout that every one uses this is essentially private land, their custom is to not allow people on their land but if the people must cross then they have to be willing to pay a fee (note there is a reason why but the why is not relevant to the story)
If you enter a persons land and don't follow their rules, as long as those rules don't include conducting evil acts, that is at best not-lawful (thought not necessarily chaotic) if you attack people for doing their job when they are not being hostile toward you then that is flat out evil.
If you don't pay the Jersey Turnpike toll you just can't use the road. If you don't pay the SF Bay Bridge toll giants don't come along a couple miles up the road and kill you.
It'd be one thing if the giants just sighed regretfully and said, "well we must refuse you passage through our territory." But they're saying, "OK, come on through then, but my big brother's going to make a stew out of you."
"My land, my rules" doesn't mean I get to kill you if I don't want you there. Disney World charges admission but they don't murder you if you sneak in.
Besides, you are setting up the PCs for alignment infraction. You've clearly stated that they don't know or understand the nature of the situation. You're assuming, rightly so, that they will do what adventurers do when monsters demand money from them and fight back. And you're doing it as a "test of alignment." It is trivially easy, and generally un-fun for players, for the GM to contrive situations that cause people to unintentionally violate their alignments.
If you don't pay the Jersey Turnpike toll you just can't use the road. If you don't pay the SF Bay Bridge toll giants don't come along a couple miles up the road and kill you.
If you dont pay the toll your free to turn around. if you dont pay the toll AND blow through the toll gate the cops come after you or at the very least a ticket is mailed to your home.
It'd be one thing if the giants just sighed regretfully and said, "well we must refuse you passage through our territory." But they're saying, "OK, come on through then, but my big brother's going to make a stew out of you."
of course the party will be warned that NOT paying the toll invites danger. its not "would you like to pay the tax if not thats fine." its more like "The law of this land is that outsiders are restricted in these lands, if you insist on passage you will have to pay for the privilege and must not deviate from this road until you exit our territory. If you cannot pay you are free to turn around and circle our lands by a different rout but if you insist on pushing through I cannot guarantee your safety as locals and security patrols are prone to attacking unmarked interlopers.
"My land, my rules" doesn't mean I get to kill you if I don't want you there. Disney World charges admission but they don't murder you if you sneak in.
unfortunately this aint Disney Land. this is a sovereign country, Try taking a stroll through Iran and using the Disneyland logic.
It is trivially easy, and generally un-fun for players, for the GM to contrive situations that cause people to unintentionally violate their alignments.
I am not in any way forcing them to do anything. They don't HAVE to cross these lands to complete the mission. There is no save the children or follow the law choice here. If they decide that at level 10 they would rather kill the rightful guards of a land rather than paying the price of a water breathing potion or taking another rout, that is an evil act there is really no justification otherwise.
Note... its an alignment test but its also a bit of a preparation. the players are entering an extremely foreign land. I have to establish to them that things are different here and they cant just go smashing things willy nilly like a bunch of conquistadors.
How much gold does the party have on them? CAN they pay the toll without bankrupting themselves?
Even 500 gp is a lot. A decent light horse is 75 gp, and owning a horse is a good indicator of wealth in medieval society. In today's terms, we're talking about somebody asking a toll of 20-30 thousand dollars.
Something like 10 gp/person, 5 gp per animal, while still high, is much more reasonable. If you want, you can throw in certified papers such as right to bear arms (20 gp per person), right to cast magic (25 gp per person), right to trade (5 gp/person) and so on. Totalled up, it might come close to 500 gp, and if the players don't want the certs, have the giants ask them to take off their armor and bind their weapons, and explain the fine will be ten times the amount of the cert if they are caught using weapons or magic without a license.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
I get that it's not Disney World but it's still pretty unusual for countries to summarily execute illegal aliens or travelers passing through.
At least the giant envoys should make clear that what they're proposing is the law of the land, and that they're local officials. Because if a bunch of giants show up and start demanding money or else, any party of heavily armed PCs is going to to the obvious thing otherwise.
How much gold does the party have on them? CAN they pay the toll without bankrupting themselves?
Even 500 gp is a lot. A decent light horse is 75 gp, and owning a horse is a good indicator of wealth in medieval society. In today's terms, we're talking about somebody asking a toll of 20-30 thousand dollars.
Something like 10 gp/person, 5 gp per animal, while still high, is much more reasonable. If you want, you can throw in certified papers such as right to bear arms (20 gp per person), right to cast magic (25 gp per person), right to trade (5 gp/person) and so on. Totalled up, it might come close to 500 gp, and if the players don't want the certs, have the giants ask them to take off their armor and bind their weapons, and explain the fine will be ten times the amount of the cert if they are caught using weapons or magic without a license.
Remember they don't want visitors. And it's 500-1000gp for a caravan of 20 people or so.
This isn't a blip on the party's wealth. They're 10th level. WBL is 62,000 each. 10gp/person isn't even worth keeping track of.
WBL is 62k, yes, but how much is that in actual gold? Magic weapon +2 - 8.5k, magic armor +2, 4.5k, and so on. Most of my PCs usually only run around with a few hundred in coins, unless they are saving up for something or just came back from an adventure. Maybe the giants are willing to take some magic potions instead?
...
they have enough coin.
thats the least of their worries.
my groups motoo: "We come in peace, we come in peace. Shoot to kill, shoot to kill!" We would probably tell the envoy to F%&K OFF and if they didnt like our answer our group might end up killing them.
It's worse than that he's dead Jim dead Jim Dead Jim its worse than that he's dead Jim Dead Jim Dead!
Sorry, couldn't resist the Dr Demento influence...
|
In principle it sounds fair to me. But given the possibility of winding up with a TPK, it's important to run it right.
* Make sure the players have an adequate idea of how dangerous these giants are. Let them and their guide use Knowledge checks etc. to guesstimate whether they can take these giants, and whether they could take on the country's armies. While they're not from around here, the PCs should still be able to get an idea of the quality and size of the giants' weapons and armor for example. If the giants appear well-equipped, clean and disciplined, that sends a message too.
* As people have pointed out, will the players/PCs trust the safe passage? If the envoys are clean and well-dressed and pass a Paladin Alignment Check, that should help. If the guide knows that the giants have a reputation for being inhospitable, but not treacherous, that should also help decisionmaking.
* Alternatives: can the party travel around the giants' territory? The envoys could offer them directions to go around if they don't want to pay; if those directions seem annoying but not absurd, that also increases the appearance of legitimacy.
* If the PCs have something of worth to trade, cut them a slightly better deal. For example, let the envoys ask if they bring trade goods; if they do, they can trade those at fair prices, and the tax is only 500gp. If they bring nothing, they pay a 1000gp tax. If the PCs have a good faceguy, they might be able to negotiate a lower rate somehow.
"No plan ever withstands first contact with the players"
I forget which poster I saw that under first, but a few people have thrown that up on the boards over the years. It is the absolute reality of my current homebrew.
I've told my players at the outset of every campaign that their characters may very well die. I don't plan for it and try not to be a killer GM, but sometimes your rolls will come up short, you'll make poor decisions or you'll bite off more than you can chew.
To the OP's original 3 scenarios, I'd say the most likely from my 2 campaigns would be outright combat in one or payment in the other. As for my GMing style I'd likely give them clues to prompt them to roll knowledge checks like nobility, history or whatever. This knowledge would them let the party know that, if they DO pay the toll they'll be unmolested as the giants are at least lawful, but that if they DON'T pay up they are probably going to be pursued as outlaws with the full resources the Titanic Governor can muster.
That being said I still couldn't count on my players nicely falling into one of these 3 scenarios. I also couldn't count on what they'd do immediately following this encounter. If they attacked them, maybe they'd search them for intelligence and try to find a secret way through the land; maybe they'd take the other tax money these characters have already collected and buy off a town to begin a revolt as a distraction. Or maybe they'll just be so unimpressed they'll walk at normal 30' movement the whole way in a straight line across the giants' country, disdaining even the thought that these underlings might pose a threat.
I guess my point is: create an interesting and engaging scenario, and have a general sense of potential consequences from this scenario. Beyond this, simply sit back and watch the magic happen.
I second JL90; not in his condemnation of others since I don't think that's what these forums are for, but rather for the spirit of his post which was that GM's need to be adaptable to your players decisions. I have a player who decided to take his character in a direction I wasn't expecting upon creation. I collaborated, adapted, and now have something a bit more unique in the form of a union between a corruptive planar force and an evil queen using this to influence the whole world. His few quirks have given a new creative twist to my entire homebrew.
Roll with it. It's your only option at this point.
I have a game philosophy that the players are not the most powerfull people in the world. it is not their destiny to overcome any and all situations in what ever method they so chose.
That does not mean I am trying to kill them.
In an earlier scenario they came across a wizards experiment which consisted of a very dangerous outsider in a glass case. despite plenty of warning (and bad knowledge checks) they insisted on opening the case because the creature was pleading for help, which would have been very bad if not TPK. In that situation I saved them because even though they were warned away from the situation I didn't believe they should die just from curiosity.
This giants scenario is entirely different. I think that if they insist on hostility they very much run the risk of TPK (though I will still leave a few outs if possible i wont walk them through it) everything else will be played by ear but without punch pulling. I have mentally planned out the region, its population and leadership, rational and motivation and a relevant back story on its relation to neighboring regions (I do this instinctively for any town or region the party interacts with). I will treat the situation exactly as I would if the players walked into Magnimar or Korvosa and started ignoring the law or slaughtering the city watch.
PCs: we open the glass case
GM: Really?
PCs: Yes!
Fight ensues...
GM: you come to, in pain and gasping for breath. A muted voice hisses with glee "You see fools! I could've slain you all, but instead I've imprisoned you all as I once was! Your combined life energy will keep you trapped forever, but you have a choice I never did; being immortal and without the ability to die I remained trapped for eternity. You cretins have only to wait for one of you to perish, that the rest of you will be released. Sorry I can't stay to watch the fun while the agony consumes you, but I've got an apocalypse to get started..." and with that the outsider disappears. You now have a choice; you can either 1. find a way out, 2. continue making Fort saves until someone fails and dies, or 3. select one person to make the "ultimate sacrifice". Such is the reward for your failure to heed the warnings of the ancients...
In short: allow failure, in some capacity. Maybe this example is harsh and punishing; I probably would be too soft to do this to my players. But on the other hand saving them completely wouldn't have been my decision in this situation either.
Thats a good one mark.
to be honest that leads to another annoying aspect... but thats still a good way to run it.
Might help if the first contact giants who request the toll be payed had some sort of official documentation they could let the characters browse through. Anything to make it seem more legitimate than just some roadside lynching...
The appearance of legitimacy can go a long way towards pcs treating it with legitimacy.
Unless the giantrealm in question had recently changed their policies I'd expect this practice to be common knowledge among the locals and a very low knowledge check would represent some sort of 'oh yeah... i thought i overheard someone at the last tavern mention something like this...'
Without solid information it doesnt fall into a valid alignment test against 'lawful'... horrible alignment discussions aside I've seen plenty of times lawful was described as my laws... not 'their' laws. Their laws can suck a sword.
Many threads devoted to the idea that alignments as a whole can go suck a sword...
But for the players to even stand a chance of not swinging first and asking questions later at least a cursory attempt at legitimacy would need to be made.
If on the other hand your question in this scenario is simply 'how do my characters react when no effort is put into giving them an excuse not to murderdeathkill...
If thats the case well, it sounds like you might already have your answer...
Again this seems more to be a poll than a meta/philosophical question so I'm gonna have to say i'd ask them for a way to prove their claim that this is how things operate and if they could, i'd pay it.