I think you want rapid shot as deadly aim doesn't work with guns.
If your GM is letting you do that with your tail then props to you, you've solved maybe the only problem with a TWF gunslinger.
If you want an optimized character, I'm not sure if you should multiclass, although I don't know a tremendous amount about gunslingers. If you are definitely going multiclass, I think the only worthy option is Fighter, because you get no penalty on your BAB progression, you keep the d10 hit die, and you get lots of bonus feats.
You're going to need Rapid Reload (that plus alchemical cartridges are both needed to let you reload as a free action) to be effective with TWF (because without it you'll be reloading as a standard action PER BARREL or a move per barrel with cartridges), so I'd pick that up before TWF.
Also, as Azelyan said, Deadly Aim does not work on things that hit touch AC; you could potentially see if your DM would let you use Deadly Aim, but have that attack hit normal AC, but then all those negatives you're going to be accumulating (two one handed weapons for twf, rapid shot) are really going to hurt. I'd pass, as you get to add Dex to damage so you're doing pretty good anyway.
After level 7 I'd go Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter. I particularly like Double Strike and Improved Balance (as should you, as you are using a one handed weapon off hand).
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Azelyn and chaoseffect are incorrect.
When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
So with the above in mind take Deadly Aim then rapid shot.
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deadly aim does work with guns.
you might want to stay gunslinger to at least 13th level where you no longer misfire. if you are twf using double barrel pistol misfires will probably be more common then you'd like.
also signature deed at 11th level.
edit: valmoon got me!
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deadly aim does work with guns.
you might want to stay gunslinger to at least 13th level where you no longer misfire. if you are twf using double barrel pistol misfires will probably be more common then you'd like
Thats true or he could enchant the weapons with:
RELIABLE GREATER enchantment. Lowers the mis fire chance (can be found in the firearms section. )
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Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot might be good ideas, especially with the Twin Shot Knockdown you get at 11th level.
Also, Clustered Shots is good, to get past DR.
Aside from that, Extra Grit never hurts, nor does Improved Critical to get more grit back from critical hits.
For your firearm, Distance is one of the first enchantments you look at.
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You must go straight Pistolero 13 levels before dipping for zero misfires. Also, as those have suggest signature deed (Up Close and Deadly) is imperative.
HERE I compare the DPR of a One Handed Pistolero vs a TWF Pistolero. But I feel going TWF is completely unnecessary. A One Hander still pumps out a ridiculous amount of DPR without rolling an obnoxious amount of attacks and smelling of cheese. If you're bent on playing a TWF, I'd suggest working with your DM so double shot works like many shot (a single die roll for double damage at a -4 penalty). Otherwise at lvl 13 you'll be making 14 attack rolls...
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Thank you all so much for your input! I think that I will end up in taking a few levels of fighter for the feats, namely weapon master so that I can get that +1 attack & damage for my gun(s).
Also, after reading kaisc006's post on a single-gun Pistolero, I am being rather tempted to just go that way and play a human instead. I'll look things over in the mean-time.
Once again, big thanks guys! :)
Not to mention its hard to reload 2 pistols, one in each hand, with your mouth... or toes, or while tossing them up in the air and juggling them. or some other sill thing. I suppose revolvers help for 6 rounds.
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I have been playing a very, VERY successful and awesomely fun Gunslinger in the Kingmaker campaign. Styled after a mix of Cowboy Bebop, brotherhood of the wolf and general gun-kata... Its really almost unfair to the opposition:
(original thread I posted, but the build is playing a level 10 as we speak, and its a little different, which I will point out below: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2otvv?Gunslinger-Monk-GunKata-build#4)
Character sheet (excel) here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzPPLvYQtQDGR2pmaTJrNWRfYnc
Here is the build,
SR 8
Dex 17
Chr 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Chr 8
LEVEL 1 - Gunslinger, Pistolero Arch (Build req. free hand)
--Point blank, Precise
LEVEL 2 - Fighter, Unarmed Arch. (Has to be second,bonus style feat has to be a style feat (i.e. first in the tree)
--CRANE STYLE 1,
LEVEL 3 - Monk, Master of Many Styles Arch.
--CRANE STYLE 2, Rapid Reload
LEVEL 4 - Fighter Unarmed Arch 2
--RAPID SHOT
LEVEL 5 - Monk, Master of Many Styles Arch.
--CRANE STYLE 3, Deadly Aim, EVASION
LEVEL 6-9 Gunslinger, getting, in order:
-6-Nimble (Dodge+1)
-7-MONKEY SYLE (awesome defensive utility)
-8-WEAPON FOCUS (Pistol, duh)
-9-SNAP SHOT (AoO's with the pistol), DEX BONUS TO DAMAGE
So, the break down, everything important is installed by level 5, except Dex to damage; thats level 9. Unfortunate, but required, and was not a large hinderance. You miss almost never (misfires suck though):
*The build allows you to be very close in combat, even within melee range, and that eliminates the worry of the 20' pistol range
*He fights defensively when needed w/ only -1 to attacks, deflects 1 melee attack a round for free (from crane 3, as deflect arrows)
*Has a great AC (specially with Mage Armor), at level 5, it would be 20 (with a dex item and ring +1) base, 24 Fighting Defensivley (acrobat bump and crane bump) and thats 24/28 with mage armor.
--at 6th, add in another dodge bump from nimbl 25/29.
--Right now, at level 9 & 10, (with +4 dex, +4 wis item) it is 29/33.
*Attacks at 5th level are great (I think). He only loses 1 BAB over the entire build. with every thing on, he is fighting defensively, rapid shotting and deadly aiming and at point blank:
-- +6/+6 for 1D8+5 x4, but its all against touch AC, and thats awesome for most targets. (but, yes, have to be within 20' for this, thus the awesome defense)
*Attacks at 9th level hit a new level, with DEX to damage. BAB 8/3 (+18 total. 24 dex, 8 bab, point blank, magic+1, focus), so fighting defensively -1, Deadly aim -3...
-- +12/+12/+7, Vs. touch withing 20', for 1D8+13 x4 (1point blank, 1 magic, 6 deadly aim, 5 dex)--- if you haste... 13/13/13/8
So, pretty good. I kept this break down simple, assuming +1 magic weapon, +2/+4 stat item on dex and wis. Also, HP are pretty good being mostly D10+2 and only 2 D8+2 and the saves are damned good as well, at 5th, they are 10/10/8 and at 9, they are 14/13/10
Flexible stuff would be when to take focus/snap shot and monkey style.
I would want to get the range doubling magic effect asap for the pistol touch attack at 40'.
The major hole for the build, as with most builds, is vs. CMD and grappling. Monkey style mitigates a lot of what CMD attacks can do, but you would want a vest of escape, a maxed escape artist skill and maybe some party support with a wand of grease. =-D
** A recent EDIT to the build has been to dip into Spellslinger at level 10 for the weapon enhancing abilities and the ability to use my own wands.
** Bracers of Falcons Aim (UE) also add another +1 competence bonus to hit and +3 perception.
**With the Dex / Con +4 item, at 10th level Gunsliger5(pistolero/Monk2(many styles)/Fighter(unarmed)2/Wizard1(spellslinger) the Hit points are 107. Though I think my GM allows a little bit more for d10 hit die han normal average.
I DARE YOU TO FIND ANYTHING TO NIT PICK!!!
how does one free their other hand to reload their pistols while TWFing them without sprouting extra limbs? i was hoping to see how in the npc handbook (because it's got the iconics all statted out), but unfortunately the later classes aren't included, so no dual-gun chick stats yet.
iirc weapon cords aren't free actions to recover, dropping them takes an action to pick them up, handy haversack shenanigans still takes an action, and weapon juggle is 3rd party. only thing i can think of is somehow getting reloading hands spell or something permanenced on you or with a custom ring or something.
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I can't find a way, this spell helps at lower levels, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/spells/reloadingHands.htm l , but once your attacking many times a round, not so much.
reloading as a free action, easily done, still requires a free hand, no matter what I can find.
I don't think its possible to dual wield pistols, excpet revolvers and that for 6 rounds only.
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I will never understand all these strange ways people try to get around 2 weapon fighting with pistols.
Just get a necklace of mage hand people. it can only hold 5 pounds but that is plenty to have it reload for you.
One of my friends did it by having a familiar with opposable thumbs do it.
Because those wont work...
Familiar might be able to do, but would need all the feats to do it more than 1 a round (prof with the gun -> rapid reload...) and mage hand cant do it at all:
Mage Hand
School transmutation; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.
Duration concentration
*Note, the concentration duration, normally requires a move action, yes? no full attack. Or maybe its swift, have not played a caster in a while, or ever in PF.
*Further, the target of mage hand is 1 single object, so I suppose it could reload 1 gun for you? Once a round, but you still can't full attack.
*Requires a somantic component... which can't be done with hand full of guns.
*Hand of the Mage necklace gets around the somantic maybe, but see above and the "at will" still requires a standard action to activate.
=-/
Not to mention its hard to reload 2 pistols, one in each hand, with your mouth... or toes, or while tossing them up in the air and juggling them. or some other sill thing. I suppose revolvers help for 6 rounds.
how does one free their other hand to reload their pistols while TWFing them without sprouting extra limbs? i was hoping to see how in the npc handbook (because it's got the iconics all statted out), but unfortunately the later classes aren't included, so no dual-gun chick stats yet.
iirc weapon cords aren't free actions to recover, dropping them takes an action to pick them up, handy haversack shenanigans still takes an action, and weapon juggle is 3rd party. only thing i can think of is somehow getting reloading hands spell or something permanenced on you or with a custom ring or something.
I will never understand all these strange ways people try to get around 2 weapon fighting with pistols.
Just get a necklace of mage hand people. it can only hold 5 pounds but that is plenty to have it reload for you.
One of my friends did it by having a familiar with opposable thumbs do it.
If you guys read the very first post, the OP clearly states:
I should note at this point that since I will be playing a Tiefling with a tail, and that my GM has ruled that "free hand while reloading" rule can be accommodated with said tail.
DM allowing him to do it. /endrant; /endargument
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Not to mention its hard to reload 2 pistols, one in each hand, with your mouth... or toes, or while tossing them up in the air and juggling them. or some other sill thing. I suppose revolvers help for 6 rounds.how does one free their other hand to reload their pistols while TWFing them without sprouting extra limbs? i was hoping to see how in the npc handbook (because it's got the iconics all statted out), but unfortunately the later classes aren't included, so no dual-gun chick stats yet.
iirc weapon cords aren't free actions to recover, dropping them takes an action to pick them up, handy haversack shenanigans still takes an action, and weapon juggle is 3rd party. only thing i can think of is somehow getting reloading hands spell or something permanenced on you or with a custom ring or something.I will never understand all these strange ways people try to get around 2 weapon fighting with pistols.
Just get a necklace of mage hand people. it can only hold 5 pounds but that is plenty to have it reload for you.
One of my friends did it by having a familiar with opposable thumbs do it.If you guys read the very first post, the OP clearly states:
I should note at this point that since I will be playing a Tiefling with a tail, and that my GM has ruled that "free hand while reloading" rule can be accommodated with said tail.DM allowing him to do it. /endrant; /endargument
Ah, I am fairly rebuked. sorry I assumed; being so used to the topic always popping up the same way.
EDIT: um, Tiefling, reloading 2 double barrel pistols at 10th level... what, 8 barrel reloads per round?? Not to mention 8 shots per round... at what, with my build above it would be +9/+9/+9/+9/+9/+9/+9/+3/+3? all at touch.
and the reloading is beind done with a non-prehensile tail? My eyes are stuck in the crossed position.
Your GM (Gonn) may not realize what he said ok too... =-)
So am I. I hate this argument because there's so many ways around it. For crossbows and for guns both.
Weapon cords could work, with DM approval. Just have to convince them to let you recover both weapons from their cords as a swift action.
Even a tiefling tail could work, with DM approval. Honestly, if it can pull a potion out of a bag, it can grab the grip of a crossbow and also wrap around the buttstock for more steady leverage. Then use free hand to reload.
I'd actually allow both situations, but with a feat tax of Quick Draw and possibly taking away their 5-foot step during the full attack round.
Update: Weapon Cords would be completely viable. The only DM fiat you would need is his personal limitation on free actions during a round.
If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.
Let’s assume Gunslinger, GTWF, Rapid Reload, Alchemical Cartridges, Endless Bandolier, Double-Barrel Pistols with Weapon Cords.
ROUND 1:
1)Fire all shots with main hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, off hand is currently free).
2)Use free action to drop main hand pistol (it’s already loaded, and retained by weapon cord).
3)Use swift action to recover off hand pistol from weapon cord (pre-loaded from previous round).
4)Fire all shots with off hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, main hand is currently free).
ROUND 2:
1)Fire all shots with off hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, main hand is currently free).
2)Use free action to drop off hand pistol (it’s already loaded, and retained by weapon cord).
3)Use swift action to recover main hand pistol from weapon cord (pre-loaded from previous round).
4)Fire all shots with main hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, off hand is currently free).
Rinse, repeat. This is all completely RAW legal, but needs a DM input on how many free actions he can take during one round. It also takes away the dual wielder’s swift actions for anything else during the combat.
I would allow it, as above, with the feat tax of Quick Draw.
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I will never understand all these strange ways people try to get around 2 weapon fighting with pistols.
Lets say you start with a pistol in both hands. Free action, drop your off hand pistol. Now fire off all your main hand attacks while reloading with your off hand. Free action drop your main hand pistol. Swift action recover your off hand pistol. Fir all of your off hand attacks while using your main hand to reload. Ridiculous? Absolutely! Obnoxious? Totally lol.
RAW states it's up to the GM to determine what finer actions weapon cords prevent. So if your GM lets you reload with them, game on. This is why I never suggest a TWF pistolero for society play. For one it's unnecessary, and two each GM has every right to say "No that doesn't work".
Ridiculous? Absolutely! Obnoxious? Totally lol.
Add in "Is this the reason Gunslingers have Grit? YES, it sure is."
RAW states it's up to the GM to determine what finer actions weapon cords prevent. So if your GM lets you reload with them, game on. This is why I never suggest a TWF pistolero for society play. For one it's unnecessary, and two each GM has every right to say "No that doesn't work".
Actually RAW states "interfere with", not "prevent". The thing that keeps them from doing things at PFS play is that they will limit their free actions per round.
Otherwise, with Double-Barreled Pistols, that's, what, 14 shots per round, so....17 free actions per round required. Which is why I would charge my players a cost of the Quick Draw feat to make it happen.
