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Accept it as it is. Where's the problem with description? The T-Rex falls in lava, and swims back to the edge, climbs out with an acrobatic check (those small arm can perform heck of a move) and then bites the evil halfling barbarian who seems to take the hit without any troubles and even makes his grapple check to not be grabbed in that mouth that alone is 4 times bigger than him.
Thats D&D - maybe you should consider a different game system without hitpoint mechanics if you cant handle it.
Hit points are nothing more or less than an abstraction of character or monster survivability. That survivability could be due to toughness, agility, experience, luck or divine providence.
As with all abstractions there will be jarring collisions with verisimilitude if you insist on "understanding it." It is up to the GM to describe how things work in the game to make them more believable.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a GM ruling that the T-Rex that fell in the lava died immediately in horrible burning agony. If that makes the game more believable, then do that. Just be ready to make the encounter more challenging in some other way if challenging your players is important to you.
There are some who play the game as saying that the original first level hit points of a character are the only "health" hit points and all the rest are "virtual" health points, meaning that all the fighting, clawing, magical blasting that is done before reaching those original hit points is just scorching the armor, or making the character sweat or otherwise just wearing them down and the first blood doesn't flow until those original hit points are breached.
It doesn't matter. The goal of the game is to have fun, not to so accurately mimic the real world that you can't tell the difference.
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I dont think about hp at all like that. Just sit back and enjoy the game for what it is.....an excuse to hang out with friends and roll some dice. Reality goes out the window in any setting. Star wars, middle earth, indiana jones, ghostbusters and so on and so forth. I think you are just over thinking things. Relax and enjoy its just a game :).
I would recommend something similar to the Legend of the Five Rings (L5R) system. For HP it uses a "wound system" where you get 2x your Earth Ring (the stat in charge of physical stamina and mental willpower) for 8 different wound ranks. Once you take so many wounds that you advance to the next wound rank you take a penalty on all actions. The wound ranks are:
Healthy
Nicked
Grazed
Hurt
Injured
Crippled
Down
Out
For D20 you could divide the total HP into the first 6 categories, have down be 0hp (disabled) and have "Out" be anything below 0hp. This way you could say the archer shoots you and nicks you in the shoulder for X damage or the ogre hits you with his greataxe in the chest crippling you for X damage. The only issue is that this would require some extra work on your side keeping track on damage to your players/monsters and determining their "wound ranks". You can also use this to describe the damage done to an enemy making it easier for the PCs to determine threats (the dragon looks injured now!).
If you want you can also impose some sort of penalty for each wound rank they achieve (which has always been MY PERSONAL issue with HP is that you are just as dangerous at 100% HP as you are at 1hp). Something like a cumulative -2 on actions. This would apply to both the PCs and monsters though and would require some extra work but might add a level of realism to your game.
As for the whole falling damage, environmental damage you could just double the damage. This will keep them afraid of this types of hazards until about lvl 10-14 but after that lvl 14 you are not normal anyways and swimming thru lava or jumping off the mountain is just cool.
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Dont add penalties for low HP. This will completly mess up the game balance.
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There's also nothing wrong with saying the T-Rex lands on a patch of congealed, partly cooled lava and rolls off with serious burns and a towering rage.
Yes, hit points can be involved in "unrealistic" results. But part of the PC mojo is to survive the unsurvivable in action heroic ways. If the movies can handle it, so can you.
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I guess perhaps I find it difficult to figure out what the problem is here.
Bigger things (like T-Rex) DO require more damage than a human would to die.
Take an African bull elephant. There are countless stories and examples of how shooting one of those things with a large caliber heavy bullet at close range does little more than piss it off. Often taking multiple shots and specifically placed shots to bring one down (think critical hitting mechanics, or called shots, etc.). One shot from the same gun on humans, regardless of how "tough" or "macho" or strong or whatever would pretty much kill them instantly.
It would be the same for environmental damage. Did the mage cast River of Lava under people and T-Rex? Great! T-Rex falls in, but since the river is mostly semi-viscuous, its easy for T-Rex to get out of without taking UBER life threatening damage from it. Does he get hurt, and have burns on his legs and feet? Sure! (thats your 10d6 damage or whatever) but is he insta-fried? No.
I am unsure what sort of players you have, but in over 25+ years of gaming I have NEVER had people get upset that something wasn't "real" damage, or realistic enough to insta-kill the T-Rex when it falls into the river of lava.
Describe damage, record the damage, and go on with it. Why struggle over something so goofy?
Taking HP damage is easy to describe. A PC with 30 HP takes 5 HP from a spear. Describe it as a slice, bleeding a bit. Describe the next four or so the same (in a similar way based on the weapons etc.). Comment that the PC is bleeding from numerous small wounds. When he finally takes the hit that drives him below zero, describe it as "a thrust into your stomach, you go down bleeding heavily in agony". It doesn't matter if it's just another 5 hit point attack. It's a cumulative series of hits leading to the catastrophic last hit as the character is slowly worn down.
The T-rex, as others have pointed out, should take more killing than a human being. If you don't mind house rules, change things like lava and falling damage (but talk to your players about it). Have the lava damage affected by size. A larger creature is in contact with more lava, hence more damage. 10d6 per round for man sized, 2x that for large creatures, etc. Or have a save or die effect (this can be brutal). You save or you're fried. Fail a save and you're dead, if you make the save you lose half your current HP (and better get out). Repeated successes lead to halving HP each round until you get to a fraction (= minus HP, and next round dead with no further saves possible). Falling damage... make it geometric. 1d6 for 10', 2d6 for 20', 4d6 for 30', 8d6 for 40', 16d6 for 50' up to some maximum number. Keep in mind people have literally fallen thousands of feet and survived. It just doesn't happen often. It's your game and it can be "modded", just make sure you think through the consequences and that your players are on board with it.
And don't stress. it's supposed to be fun.
Ever seen that movie where Tommy Lee Jones beats an earthquake? Guy walks into a subway tunnel flooded with lava, grabs another guy who's stranded, and then throws him out of harm's way while MELTING into the lava.
Is it realistic? Not by a longshot. Did it play on HBO for like 9 years? Yes it did...
Use the strain/injury variant. Impose conditions after every 4 HP and a failed save. Give everyone 1 HP. Everyone.
There are ways (that I'm sure you've already tried and discarded) to make it seem more real but at the end of the day it comes down to this: are you and your players having fun? Me, I like the melting guy...
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Hit points are an abstraction. When a fighter gains a level, his body does not suddenly become more resistant to damage. A sword’s strike does not suddenly do proportionately less damage. Rather, hit points suggest that the fighter has undergone more training, and while he may have improved his ability to deal with wounds to a small degree, the hit points gained at higher levels reflect less his capacity for physical punishment and more his
skill at avoiding hits, his ability to dodge and twist and turn. Each loss of hit points, in this case, suggests that he is becoming progressively less nimble over the course of combat—in other words, that the decreasing hit points are a marker for his overall endurance and condition.
The book then goes on to give an alternate system to tracking HP that fits in with all other Pathfinder rules. Check it out.
I view hit points a pool you use to avoid being damaged when attack lands. So if you 90 hp and get hit for 8 points with long sword it was close blow that you through everything into avoid being stuck by that sword. Once you get down to CON stat in hit point that's when I consider the damage to real and bleeding to start.
To me it just doesn't make sense that a sword does less and less damage as you get more and more hit points. At 1st level a sword blow can kill you and at 10th level you can get stabbed many times and shrug it off like it was nothing.
At my table, there are several players who want more realistic hp and penalties to people as they loose hp, similar to rifts/shadow run. The issue that keeps coming up is keeping up with everyone's hp and then the % of their hp is overly complicated and burdensome on my end. Rifts does have a decent/good system for breaking bones or getting internal injuries and the like.
HP themselves represent how much damage you can tolerate, your ability to 'dodge' less significant limbs into the way of strikes, or your ability to dodge the attack itself in a way that it barely scrapes you.
Vorpal swords have a d12 as to cutting off body parts.
I agree with the original poster that the 4d6 lava damage from a lava bath is stupidly low. And while the human record of falling and surviving is 26,000 feet (without a parachute), PF would rule that he would take 2,599d6 damage. I'd like to see a character that can survive 2,599d6 damage.
If you do not like the hp system in PF - the Starship Trooper hp system is probably for you. Characters gain between 1 and 3 hp each level depending on their class (no rolling), characters start with their con in hp.
As for the general population of an area, I usually look at the leadership feat for levels and spread (very helpful to populate an area)
One thing I miss when I'm the player is virtually no DM takes elevation or terrain into effect.
*sorry if I broke any of the rules for message boarding (bringing up other system's to be potential used as house rules in PF). If this is against the rules, this was not my intent.
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The problem is there isn't anyone who isn't strong as iron. Every shopkeeper around is level 4.
Nothing in the rules says that has to be true. In my games, it isn't.
You also have to consider that completely non-magical giants like ogres violate the square-cube law by not collapsing under their own weight. Dragons fly despite the violation of physics it requires. It's only your own personal preference that is making one okay and the other a violation of verisimilitude.
The problem isn't Hit Points, it's the healing rules.
Hit Points are defined as partially abstract immediately where they are introduced in the rulebook, but because the healing methods all evoke literal wounds, people forget that lost HP can mean parrying, dodging, a lost helmet, lost energy, etc. It becomes implicit that characters are rapidly healing grievous injuries rather than relying on more commonplace defenses that get worn down throughout a fight; including the conspicuously absent concepts of plain old stamina (ever tried boxing?) and parries or blocks, things that damn well should be in any self-respecting fantasy action game.
The way to fix this is to change the way some damage heals, to bring the healing rules more in line with what the rules say HP actually is.
A complete manifesto can be found here, including a handy document for how to describe all types of damage in the game as either abstract (strain) or concrete (injury). The tools there attempt to fix the problem while changing the combat rules as little as possible. This means changing the healing rules to reflect that not all HP damage is a bleeding gash.
Lots of people helped with this. Enjoy!
I appreciate everyone's responses. There are too many to respond individually, so I'll try to sum up my response so far. Continuing with the T-Rex vs human analogy, yes, a T-Rex certainly should be harder to take down than a human, no doubt. However, the idea that a T-Rex can fall from a great height or into a pool of lava and survive better than a normal human to the degree that it does based on HP is ludicrous.
So, change the falling damage formula. Try, as I mentioned above, geometric progression (1,2,4,8,16,32, etc. d6 damage) instead of linear. Have size effect falling and lava damage (x2 for large, x3 for huge, etc.). Use a Save or Die scheme for lava (etc.). Save or die (and lose 1/2 current hp if you save). I mentioned this above, and the point is to be develop a level of "realism" you, and your players, are comfortable with.
A T-Rex is not magical, not a real one when they were around anyway. Its tough, big, and bullets, arrows, and swords would have to get a very well placed shot to bring one down. But in terms of HP, a normal person like you and I should have somewhere between 3 and 6 hp, and between 10 and 14 negative HP, for a total of about 13-20 hp. Falling into a pool of lava is certain death. This isn't just about "realism", its about internal consistency. If a biological being that has no magical explanation to not die would die from something, so would another.
You and I aren't hardened adventurers. Well, I'm not. Neither is the typical resident of a FRPG world. Well, the typical resident of a PF or D&D FRPG. Others may differ.
Being big doesn't make falling less damaging... in fact, it could very well have the opposite effect. A river of lava, depending on the depth, would not be being immersed in lava... it would be contact with lava. Being immersed in lava would be falling into a pool of it.I'm more than OK with the idea that creatures that have enough HD start to be more than biological. The issue I have is that it just seems like everything you encounter in the game is. 153 hp is super-biological, by a lot.
See the above on falling and lava. If you are the GM / DM you are in control of the world, and who the players meet in it. Most of my grunt NPCs are 1st level. Some are 2nd, a few 3rd. A handful higher. The reason adventurers meet so many high level NPCs is because they are dealing with the special / different / BBEGs (and their minions).
The other issue is just describing the events. Super-biological or not, how do you describe losing "16-20hp" or more, and not describe completely fatal wounds? Is every "hit" not actually a "hit"? What about when a fireball fills 20 cubic feet with fire? A giant's club crashes down that would be far too big to dodge... I argued against these concepts before, but the more I think about it, the less I know how to explain what is happening other than to say, "Yep, you got hit, but you are" as someone put it above "strong as iron"...The problem is there isn't anyone who isn't strong as iron. Every shopkeeper around is level 4. Pansy aristocrats in the court are level 10. Every hapless local brigand looking to shake down passers by for a pittance of gold is a level 5 rogue or some 5 HD hybrid warrior/fighter type. These people are all super-biological, by a wide margin, as well. Heck, anything over 1 HD becomes super-biological. Where is the rationale for that, and how do you describe the reasons why all of these people living meager, pathetic, medieval lives in the dirt are harder to cut down than a tree? What kind of descriptions should I be giving here?
You are being way too concrete about HP. They are not (necessarily) "super biological". Just highly skilled and experienced. A champion martial artist is a lot harder to take down than the man on the street. You dodge, you roll out of the way, you hide behind that shield. There are a hundred explanations for not taking full "realistic" damage from a fireball (or dragon's breath for that matter). You have to approach this with imagination and a willingness to suspend disbelief (within reason). Otherwise it's not going to work. As for the average person living "meager, pathetic, medieval lives in the dirt", adversity and hard times breed toughness.
First, let me say I prefer systems with health levels, BUT...
In the D&D/Pathfinder system, I like to think of HP as "exertion points" or "stamina points", and your CON score as your ACTUAL health. This is seemingly supported by allowing characters to go negative HP = to their CON score before they die.
Everything up to that point is muscle strain, bruises, expended energy, minor scrapes, sprains, dehydration, etc. Much like a professional boxer, each of those things add up, taking thier toll on the combatant until the point that they can no longer roll with incoming blows they acquire, resulting in real injury (negative HP).
As characters level, they can heal more HP with rest because they have trained their bodies to deal with the punishment. Kind of like how a marathon runner has trained their body to deal with the physical strain that 99% of the people can't handle, and they can recover from running a marathon MUCH quicker than most people can. I speak from experience there. I was sore for a week after running a half-marathon, but professional runners would recover much quicker.
(On a related note, I re-wrote the running and swimming rules, because I feel that they really are unrealistic, but thats another thread.)
If you want realistic rules for lava, the Paizo website has a free download from Expeditious Retreat Press for alternate lava rules.
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I don't know- as a longtime DM I am personally a fan of aesthetic and story over number-crunching. If something sounds good, and everyone is enjoying themselves, I am apt to roll with it so long as it makes sense. This includes both sides of the damage coin.
The T-Rex falls in lava due to players ingenuity, roleplay or misfortune? Well done! Enjoy a grisly and cinematic description of it's death, HP be damned.
The T-Rex falls in lava due to players being meta or abusing the mechanics in a way that is not constructive to roleplay? Well done! The heavily damaged T-Rex explodes from the lava, spraying molten rock in all directions as it dives for the players in a blind rage. Reflex saves, everyone.
In short, you are the DM. Do what feels right, and don't get too hung up on the rules. They are more of a guideline, really. Roleplay should always be the primary concern.
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I just don’t get how I am to describe the events that are happening. In a video game, you don’t have to describe it, you don’t worry about the realism. A little ticker of damage goes off above your toon’s head, and you look the same, but now your bar is a full of less red or green or whatever… but at the table, its not just “pure abstraction for the sake of playing a game”… there is a story in here somewhere right? How the hell am I supposed to tell a story when I don’t even understand what the hell just happened?
Excuse me?
Did you just suggest that video games don't have stories because things like health bars exist?
It's the same thing in this game,and if you accept that fact things will be a lot easier for you. Draw a red bar somewhere for each of the characters at your table and erase little bits if that helps you somehow realize that HP is a number that goes down the exact same way that a videogame's HP meter goes down as you take damage (protip: there are numbers involved in that too).
But, that aside, people have given you some good alternatives and the official fluff for HP.
HP can be fluffed however you want it, as long as you're creative. It doesn't matter at all really, but you can make it anything you want.
Edited for rudeness.
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A realistic view on HP is simply impossible, and always has been. It's one of the most abstract and gamey aspects of the system. Trying to explain it is the road to frustration, because there will always, always be things that don't make sense.
It's an extreme abstraction. Either you accept it, or you use a different system.
I just don’t get how I am to describe the events that are happening. In a video game, you don’t have to describe it, you don’t worry about the realism. A little ticker of damage goes off above your toon’s head, and you look the same, but now your bar is a full of less red or green or whatever… but at the table, its not just “pure abstraction for the sake of playing a game”… there is a story in here somewhere right? How the hell am I supposed to tell a story when I don’t even understand what the hell just happened?
Excuse me?
Did you just suggest that video games don't have stories because things like health bars exist?
It's the same thing in this game,and if you accept that fact things will be a lot easier for you. Draw a red bar somewhere for each of the characters at your table and erase little bits if that helps you somehow realize that HP is a number that goes down the exact same way that a videogame's HP meter goes down as you take damage (protip: there are numbers involved in that too).
I think the best part of this is the fact that the guy in question got his username (presumably) from a Final Fantasy character.
Some thoughts to you? Who is to say the T-Rex survives? GM Fiat is the number one rule, it fall off cliff into lava and dies. Characters of course are heroes and should survive if they can, but any Mook can just die at a GM's whim. If it makes sense to the story that the T Rex would die from that, he dies. Not big deal perfectly within the DM's ability to do so.
As for Video games, HP in those is also a abstraction. My MMO character does not take any negative from damage until dead, he gets negative from other mechanics is said video game.
I think the best part is you didn't read my posts. Final Fantasy would fall into the category of an "entirely abstract" battle system like I described above. Its so abstract, that even I don't care. The battles aren't actually part of the story other than that one side "won" or "lost". Story doesn't happen in the battle (unless you count annoying tutorials with character dialogue or one-liners as story) in an entirely abstracted video game.
Final Fantasy X had quite a few exchanges of dialogue mid-battle. So did IV and XII for that matter. Is VI the only one you've played?
With the roleplaying game, there is a story, the characters continue to be roleplayed inside of initiative. The world isn't described as evaporating into pixelated shattering glass and you enter a "battle dimension" when initiative is rolled like it does in Final Fantasy. The flow from "combat" to "not combat" doesn't really exist. You only break out initiative to start paying closer attention to things. The world doesn't actually suddenly change into a different format... the room you were just in peacefully studying an ancient wall mural is the very same room that a moment later you are fighting for your life against a mummy.
Excuse me while my eyes roll wildly.
Video games with entirely and completely abstract systems don't bother me, but ones with more "realistic" interfaces do. Take the Elder Scrolls for example... I tried to like those games, I really did, but eventually it got to me there too. The same peasant that I was speaking to a moment ago, who doesn't have more than 2 septims to rub together, can't be killed by a single blow of ANY weapon in the game unless it is enchanted with magic. The game is immersive, but then the combat refuses to remain immersive. This is the break for me. Go all the way abstract, or don't abstract.
Yes, they really can. I can boot up Skyrim and hit an old beggar with an iron dagger (I don't think there's even a weaker weapon in the game) and he'll drop like a sack of potatoes.
The character I'll do it with will have a decent skill in one-handed weapons (i.e. he'll have proficiency with them). It's just like in this game. Your level 5 Wizard with 8 Str probably can't OHKO a peasant with a club because he has the upper body strength of of a sack full of kittens.
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I've never really had much of a problem with them.
I have to say a large problem with your argument is that you're asking for a solution to everything at once, and that is never going to happen. Pick certain things you'd like clarifications on, and the community will give you something.
Hit Points
Don't think of hit points as a number "out of" a maximum total. 3 hit points on a level 1 character is not the same amount of damage as 3 hit points on a level 10 character. Think of it as a percentage. By doing this, the character is either "fine" (100%), "lightly wounded" (60-99%), "somewhat wounded" (30-59%), "seriously wounded" (5-29%), "critical" (4% or less). These numbers are something I've made up on the spot; you can guesstimate at the table how close they are by being in the ballpark of these numbers if you want to get that specific.
Fireball
Fireballs are damaging, but they're not always life-threatening. They simply don't burn as hot as you think they do. It's magical fire, so different people will have different resistances. This is before taking into account evasion and dodging. Toughness helps, because tougher skin is going to be more resilient (to anything). Toughness doesn't mean mental toughness. Think of it as being burnt with hot water. If you're already pretty weak, this will be worse than if you're fine.
Falling Damage
Some people can just take falling better than others. In this setting, people are just more resilient than in real life. They can land in a different way to distribute the damage better if anyone's getting pedantic. I understand a big fall should be really significant... it can take a 100hp character down to about 75hp - that's "lightly wounded". They can roll at the bottom to take less damage, but it'll still hurt. The more experienced someone is, the better they can handle falls.
Lava Damage
...is really combining fireball and falling damage above. Either way, it'll hurt, a lot. Just not as much as you might think. Much worse if they're swimming in it. Remember it's damage per round - up to 6 seconds of contact.
And again, do you read? I don't consider one-liners or places where the battle is "suspended" anime-style to be significant examples of "story". The story in these games happens outside the game, in cutscenes, etc. Are the characters talking in a way that actually enhances the story in a cinematic fashion while they are swinging their swords? No. You don't continue to explore the room at the same time as you do battle in Final Fantasy... you are taken to another type of "existence".
1.) Yes.
2.) Ya got me.
Some of them can be killed with one blow, ooo you got me. Big deal. It only expresses the problem all the more. Just about anyone should be able to kill just about anyone with a club hit to the head. Its absurd to think otherwise. Also, so what if you can kill SOME beggars with that iron dagger... then some other beggar is still a deadbeat beggar, but for some reason is level 3 instead of 1, and you have to hack even that level 3 guy 5 times to bring him down.
1.) Go hit one of your friends with a baseball bat. I guaran-f***ing-tee you he will not die. I'd be dead many a time over if people were as flimsy as you seem to believe they are.
2.) I'm not sure you understand how leveling works in TES, especially Skyrim. Different enemies are level capped and level with you. If the beggar is level 3, that means you're about level 10. He'll still die in one hit unless you have like a 5 in One-Handed. Even then, it might take 3 swipes with the dagger.
I can also guarantee you that one random slashing wound is not going to kill a man unless you catch him good in the throat.
Actually, sorry, I'm wrong. NPCs don't level at all in Skyrim, they just "evolve". People like beggars and guards stay the same no matter what, while inhuman enemies become a stronger version of themselves (dragon v ancient dragon, Falmer vs Falmer Gloomlurker) and some specific NPCs (usually followers or essential NPCs) level with the player but are capped at a certain number below him. Oblivion had that problem, but it was something they fixed for every game after that.
Still think that's OK? With your attitude I bet you do... then explain to me how come there is a level 10 housewife a few doors down from where we just murdered the beggar who DOES absolutely have superhuman HP, requiring dozens of hits to kill, and can become a pincushion of arrows before dying?
The only housewife I know of like that is Lydia, who is a trained warrior in full steel armor. Aela's kinda like that too, but then again she's a werewolf.
In fact, I've killed a few housewives accidentally due to environmental damage (ever sprinted into a cart or a bucket?).
Does this problem sound familiar? Yeah, that's what happens at the d20 table. Someone is a "high-level" aristocrat, so they also happen to have 75 hp or some bs like that. The Elder Scrolls actually offers a glimpse through the window I look through in my mind's eye when playing d20... someone living in a shack, who can become pin cushioned with arrows and still keep swinging away with their fists at you.People say I don't have an imagination, but the problem is I DO. And what I see looks like cartoony bullcrap unless there is some form of internal explanation for it. The lava was congealed is a terrible explanation... even congealed lava on top of a bed of molten lava would be extremely deadly. The hero clung with all his might to the edge of the cliff? What if the hero was dropped by a flying creature from the middle of nowhere in the air straight onto pavement?
This is what people talk about when they say you have no imagination. You can only imagine one possible scenario and then you apply that to everything. Do you know why it's "cartoony bullcrap" IT'S NOT REAL!
Last I checked in the real world people didn't go around flinging fire from their hands at will and things like Ogres and Orcs didn't exist either.
Like I said before, it does appear that nothing short of GM fiat will fix the problem.I don't understand why there are always people trying to claim that the problem doesn't even exist. Its ok if you don't give a crap about the problem, that's different from saying the problem isn't actually there. You don't mind, heck even like, a lime green refrigerator? Fine! Don't tell me it is white though.
It's not a problem. You MAKE it a problem with a narrow view of any one thing that happens. You do it to yourself so FIX IT YOURSELF. Don't come on here every week with a new thread about how you hate everything to do with HP and expect people to respond differently than the first time. You're one of the very few people who finds this to be an issue.
Prove you have imagination by fixing your perceived "problem" with it.
A realistic view on HP is simply impossible, and always has been. It's one of the most abstract and gamey aspects of the system. Trying to explain it is the road to frustration, because there will always, always be things that don't make sense.
It's an extreme abstraction. Either you accept it, or you use a different system.
THIS... 100% this. HP do not make sense. They will never make sense. I've played MANY systems that all tried a different take on the concept, and they all suck. Pathfinder included.
It's best to consider it a necessary evil in a fantasy world.
Hit Points are defined as partially abstract immediately where they are introduced in the rulebook, but because the healing methods all evoke literal wounds, people forget that lost HP can mean parrying, dodging, a lost helmet, lost energy, etc. It becomes implicit that characters are rapidly healing grievous injuries rather than relying on more commonplace defenses that get worn down throughout a fight; including the conspicuously absent concepts of plain old stamina (ever tried boxing?) and parries or blocks, things that damn well should be in any self-respecting fantasy action game.
The 'abstract' method isn't good either. (Not just you EL, but everyone pointing out the 'abstract/dodge/luck' idea ;) )
Claiming that every hit before '0' JUST missed you... doesn't take into account bleeding damage... or poison... or ability drain... or any kind of effect that states QUITE simply.. that the weapon DID touch, DID penetrate, and DID draw blood.
Like you said, the spells are curing 'wounds' the attacks are causing 'bleed' the weapons are doing 'damage'. It's possible to just chalk HP into 'stamina'... but that alone isn't going to fix a lack of 'immersion'.
only a strong imagination is going to do that.
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Majority of the world is 1st level commoners with 6 hp. A fall from 10 ft can injure them or knock them unconscious. A fall from 20 will almost certainly leave them staggered or unconscious and bleeding.
Seems good enough for me. Calibrate your expectations. Pathfinder Adventurers are made of tougher stuff.
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I don't want to argue about the merits of my observations. I want to know if anyone has anything beyond GM fiat to offer to actually help.
If that's all you're after, the answer is no - the rules don't specify it. The closest you'll get is the Gamemastering section which - I think - talks about how you're expected to work with this.
You could always play chess. No hit points at all. Anybody can kill anybody, and no cliffs to be seen anywhere.
Play a different system.
All your complaints are correct, but remember, that first of all, Pathfinder is a tabletop game, not a story telling device. There are numerous independent games that have mechanisms that are actually designed to help with story telling, but Pathfinder does not. It is at it's heart a DnD derivative and that means it's essentially a board game with a narrative portion tugged on.
In a way your complaint is that a cinematic shooter does not play like a flight simulator. It was simply designed to do something different. Pathfinder, like all of it's ilk, is primarily board game like and hence, the mechanics of the game are divorced from it's narrative aspects. Magic is a good example. Given the possibilities and reliability of magic in the game, the world should look very different from how it is presented. There should be public teleportation transport, create water and cure disease traps, body armor should be designed to protect against fireballs and magic missile or dropped if such protection is uneconomic. There should be no castles, but underground bunkers to protect against flying enemies,...
Similarly the wealth by level guidelines are ridiculous. Not only do they fix in the rules a kind capitalist utopia, where everyone always gets richer as the get more experienced, the sheer rate of increase is insane. Within a few levels, PC should necessarily be among the very richest people in their area. The rules for equipment are just a way to get the Diablo aspect of better and better gear into the rules.
It's not merely hit points that not only don't help, but go against story telling, there are many other, similarly problematic aspects to the rules, too. And if you assume the board game point of view, that makes sense and fits. A board game does not primarily tell a story, but is primarily a game. Pathfinder, from a rules perspective, is primarily a game, not a story-telling venture.
Many people do not mind this (I certainly can live with it), but everyone should be conscious of it. And if you want something else, play something else. That is really the only answer I can give.
I was going to point to the injury/strain explanation of HP as made by EvilLincoln but I see he has already posted. If you missed it scroll up to read his post.
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I don't want to argue about the merits of my observations. I want to know if anyone has anything beyond GM fiat to offer to actually help.
Very well then.
Magic permeates everything in the world. From the merest blade of grass to the mightiest beast. Call it what you will, spark, essence, mana, mojo, everything has it. And the more a person gathers it, the more powerful it becomes. It lets you withstand the heat of a volcano, the weight of a giant, the pull of gravity. If it were ever fully removed, ogres would collapse and dragons would plummet. Not even dead zones are truly bereft of this force. It is literally the building blocks of the universe.
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I'm not being combative, the following are actual questions.
As I understand it, according to the devs, Earth is actually in the same universe as Golarion. What is it that makes Golarion full of magic, and not Earth?
Why do most commoners not become magical on a world so packed with magic that some become insanely magical? What is the trigger to becoming magical?
KutuluKultist pointed out that the world should be very different than it is if it was so full of magic. Why if Golarion is so full of magic are there any places that are mundane. A place that can give rise to demigods for no apparent reason, and where magic is so abundant and reliable would indeed seem to be a setting that would preclude people living in huts and thatched roof houses, and be one entirely made up of incredible superstructures with magical force-fields and teleportation. A world with so much magic shouldn't have any "commoners" at all. Right?
Well, the last paragraph I guess is solved by making my own setting... it seems the published adventures just aren't to my taste, which is a shame, because I don't mean to deride them, they are good, better than what I can do I'm sure, its just that the system and the story told there seem at odds to me.
1. Maybe once you cross enough space, the spark no longer permeates everything. In that case, it's not the building blocks, but infuses the atoms of parts of the gameworld, like radiation. So everyone is Hulked out.
2. You have to go to where the essence is. You can't just live in a desert and expect to get soaked. That means you interact with other creatures and places that have more essence. And those are almost invariably more dangerous. Being a commoner just doesn't allow you to survive the encounters that would grant you more essence.
3. Why if Earth is so full of water are there any places that are dry? Same concept. Different locales have different levels of mana.
On the "play another system" advice (that I also gave): I think how HP works is stupid. For the first 20 years of my roleplaying life, I detested D&D for various reasons, including the ridiculously increasing HP (but also classes and Vancian magic, for example). I played almost every system in the world, except D&D.
The thing is: it doesn't really matter. No system has a realistic system for damage and healing. Some come very close (I'm very enamored of Fudge's damage system: it's simple, fast and as realistic as any I've seen), some literally explain it away as magic (Earthdawn), but in the end, most people play D&D or Pathfinder, and the system works well for what it does. You need to learn not to think to hard about how some stuff would really work if this was how a real world worked, but once you do that, it works, and it turns out it doesn't get in the way during play.
It's not a simulation. Once you accept that, it's a great game.