I was reacently talking with a friend who might be interested in playing in my current campaign.
The character concept he is interested in is a tatoo monk. A character that obviously uses tatoos to draw on magic abilities.
I initially said that dual classing with Sorcerer might be a good idea but as that makes the monk even more MAD I thought maybe Cleric. As I am very new to the multiclass stuff (prefering pure classing myself) I would like some advise on how to advise him. I want to be able to help him make a char that keeps up with the rest of the group who are all pure classed.
The way we are starting character creation he would start at lvl 6 with a +2 weapon (or some equivilant) and 15,000 gold to spend on items of his choosing. We also use a 25 pt buy system.
I would really appreciate any help here. I mentioned blood lines to him and have no idea if he has come up with any sort of concept or background story at the moment. I think he favores the idea of being able to do some offensive spells so I think he would like sorcerer over cleric but cleric does seem like the better option as both Monk and cleric benefit from wisdom.
Thank you.
Take a look at the D&D 3.5 Prestige Class tattood monk. Complete Warrior Handbook, page 82
Enlighted fist, a PrC from Complete Arcane Handbook is a muliclass monk/mage build.
Also look at the ascetic mage feat from Complete Adventure Handbook.
With this feat, the monk gets AC bonus with high charisma.
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Using just the core book, I would do Sorc1/Monk4 into Dragon Disciple. As for the Monk's MAD problem, this build would be STR > CHA > WIS or DEX > CON > INT. It's doable (but not pretty) with 20 points, its potent with 25 points.
You sacrifice defense for offense, but can make up the loss of Dex & Wis with the Nat AC from DD, and casting Mage Armor on yourself. The stat bonuses from DD also do a decent job offsetting the loss of damage dice progression since you are't actually taking levels of monk. A Monk's Robe and an Amulet of Mighty Fists (I would suggest an amulet that grants a die of elemental damage over one that grants and enhancement bonus) are nearly essential as well.
While technically there is nothing tattooed about this monk, you could do all of that through non-mechanic fluff. He has a tattoo for each spell, and part of the somatic component is to touch the tattoo, etc.
Hope that helps, good luck.
Using just the core book, I would do Sorc1/Monk4 into Dragon Disciple. As for the Monk's MAD problem, this build would be STR > CHA > WIS or DEX > CON > INT. It's doable (but not pretty) with 20 points, its potent with 25 points.
You sacrifice defense for offense, but can make up the loss of Dex & Wis with the Nat AC from DD, and casting Mage Armor on yourself. The stat bonuses from DD also do a decent job offsetting the loss of damage dice progression since you are't actually taking levels of monk. A Monk's Robe and an Amulet of Mighty Fists (I would suggest an amulet that grants a die of elemental damage over one that grants and enhancement bonus) are nearly essential as well.
While technically there is nothing tattooed about this monk, you could do all of that through non-mechanic fluff. He has a tattoo for each spell, and part of the somatic component is to touch the tattoo, etc.
Hope that helps, good luck.
Thanks a lot man that sounds like a good start. Im fine with the tatoo part of the monk being "fluff". I just didnt know where to start from really and had not even thought of Dragon Disciple. If my friend decides to play I will run this buy him... that is of course if he likes the draconic bloodline :)
Anyone else have advice? I would appreciate any other ideas.
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Mostly buffs and defense, go monk/cleric (also better saves, hp and base attack than sorcerer).
Personally, I'd go this route. Especially since both monks and clerics benefit from high wisdom. In fact, I've got a dwarven monk I'm currently playing, and I've already given him some tattoos.....
Also, do I recall correctly that some book from 3.5 had stuff about magical tattoos (costs, effects, etc)? Or maybe it was an article in Dragon. Can't remember.
Ty Bruno.
Starting at lvl 6 what are some different ways you would take your levels? I like Laughing Goblins suggestion but like I said im not sure he will have anything to do with the draconic bloodline so the disciple may not be an option.
If he went with monk/cleric what would be good Domains to choose?
If he went Sorc what spells would you choose?... how many lvls of Sorc and how many lvls of monk even past lvl 6?
I also dont usually play casters so I am not sure which spells it would be important to get too, thus have no idea how many lvls of sorc would be necessary.
Thanks again for the advice.
Perhaps stat up an PrC that enables an Arcane Caster's magical abilties into their physical bodies. Slow down their casting to 1 caster level every 2 levels, but they gain the ability to 'scribe' permanent tattoos onto their bodies that enables them to cast a certain spell at will a number of times per day equal to their Spellcasting Score.
Increase their BAB to Full Progression, grant them unarmed damage that counts as magic, but lower damage than a Monk, but counts as magic due to the runes on their bodies. The flip-side to this is a Monk who takes levels in the Class could gain spell-like abilities nominally outside of his reach and the potential to imbue his attacks with elemental properties to overcome different DR combinations that are the bane of Monks everywhere.
HalfOrc: We are using Core rules (sorry I didnt specify) I have to figure out a way to do it without modifying anything other than fluff. Thats why I am leaning towards the Sorcerer idea... when he gains a spell it is simple enough to say he gains a tatoo (by whatever menas) and someone else also mentioned that the somatic component could be touching the tatoo which makes complete sense. We are using only the PF core book.
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Using only Core Rules: This is how I'd do it......
Monk/Cleric, that way you benefit from high wisdom with both classes and have access to some really good buff spells.
For making the tattoos you could either house rule an item creation feat (Craft Magical Tattoo) or maybe use the Scribe Scroll feat and have the tattoos actually appear as writing on the skin (I'm having flashbacks to Bulletproof Monk here). Craft Wonderous Item may also work.
Edit: Might also want to do the Profession (Tattooist) or something like that, just for shits and giggles.
Anyway, my two cps.
If it's a home game and you don't mind a house rule or two, let him enchant his body as though it was armor via the tatoos. Monks are underpowered as is, so it won't break anything.
Thanks guys.
Anyone else? What feats would you take? What domains if you went with Cleric?
Hummm.... magic items that don't take up a slot on the body costs double. Theoretically Scribe Scroll could be used with the Tattoo Profession to imprint spells directly into the flesh of the caster as single-use spell, or if you were to use the Use-Activated or Continuous formula and double the costs, the Cleric 'Monk' or even just a strait-out Monk could theoretically give himself (or be given) constant Mage Armor, elemental damamge and so on and so forth, by tapping a tattoo, using a Ki point to power the tattoo and going from there.
Aaaaargh you are asking for something completely core and my brain keeps coming up with these goddamn homebrews. I am sorry, I'll try again tomorrow, hopefully when the grey-matter will correctly interpret commands!
I didn't read all the thread but a Monk/Shadow Dancer might work, you could say that the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are his tattoos at work, he could get into the class pretty early too if he uses his Monk feat for Dodge (and Mobility for however long he stays in Monk) also, the Rogue Talents would benefit him a lot, especially fast stealth with a 40-50ft base speed. Uncanny Dodge is also nice as a Monk. This would also possibly work as a Ninja-like build, just throwing this out there.
Well ... since it's "core only" then go w/the kludge and re-flavor the text of a sorcerer's effects.
Honestly, though, the PrC itself is pretty good from 3.5 and is 90% likely what the PC wants. So ... making the kludge isn't likely to satisfy, IMO.
I'd say just go w/the 3.x Tattooed Monk and *maybe* just give it a tattoo at every level (vs. every other) in order to "keep up" with the PF power curve in general.
Seriously ... you're trying to create synergy for a Monk ... A MONK!!!!
They're SO hosed already that you should do anything to help 'em along, IMO.
Along w/the above suggestion of just adding a tattoo/level, I'd suggest you allow the ki-points to add up through levels in the same way that the PrC already allows unarmed damage, ac bonus and speed to all stack up.
What it comes down to is that the Tattooed Monk's PrC simply exchanges class features and spell-like abilities of Monk for the tattoo's. Many of them are very background/flavor types of things and they work in tandem w/each other (ie: they get stronger the more of them there are). A few, alone, are really not very powerful in terms of the monk trade-offs.
They would be giving up a LOT, IMO, if taking this path over a straight Monk, but the abilities are simply different sorts of options.
The earliest you can enter that one, by PF crossover guidelines I believe would be level 4 - possibly level 5 (not sure here, it's only a 3.x req of Knowledge Religion at 8, and Imp. Grapple as req's to get into the PrC, along w/a +3 bab).
Seriously ... either consider making the exception with a few mods to keep the player satisfied, or just disallow the notion outright. NOTHING has synergy with a Monk ... at all.
Hummm.... magic items that don't take up a slot on the body costs double.
Can you reference a page number for me so I can use this? This could be a very good way to go!
Thank you all for the replies. A little info on the game, I am the main DM but we rotate the DMing through everyone and everyone so far has made characters straight from the book, no house rulling of any kind. So as I am not the only DM I do not want to try to do any modification of the rules so that no one is surprised by what he is doing with his character. I also dont want to go through the trouble of having a big discussion with everyone over how to house rule this and argue for weeks over what is/isn't balanced.
I appreciate all the help, any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Would there be a way by RAW to buy magic items such as bracers of armor for example as his tatoos? Again, without any sort of house rule or fudging.
*What* does this guy want the tattoos to *do* exactly?
That'll be a LOT more help to you (and us in advising) than just plucking stuff out of the ether and throwing it at you to see what sticks.
*What* does this guy want the tattoos to *do* exactly?
That'll be a LOT more help to you (and us in advising) than just plucking stuff out of the ether and throwing it at you to see what sticks.
Thats something I need to discuss with him. I wanted a base of ideas to talk with him about though so I had some advise for him. He is fairly new to D&D(PF) but has played a lot of RPGs. I imagine he wants to be able to throw out some offensive spells from his tatoos, maybe even some defense. The character concept is from a different game (Rolemaster) that we played long ago and loved.
I am supposed to spend some time going over character options and ideas with him tomorrow so ill have more info then.
throws some ghost residue at the wall to see if it sticks
Would there be a way by RAW to buy magic items such as bracers of armor for example as his tatoos? Again, without any sort of house rule or fudging.
Shameless bump for this question, thanks again :)
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Would there be a way by RAW to buy magic items such as bracers of armor for example as his tatoos? Again, without any sort of house rule or fudging.Shameless bump for this question, thanks again :)
define "fudging"
The item creation rules are core, and there is a modifier for items that don't take an equipment slot. The modifier is mainly there for items like Ioun Stones, but you could just as easily say they were tattoos instead.
So, using item creation rules, someone with "Craft Wondrous Item" could theoretically make Bracers of Armor as "slotless" tattoos for double their normal cost.
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The Monk/Cleric could be a decent build (though not one I've tried. My main concern is that while there are arcane hybrid PrCs to continue boosting both your melee capabilities and your casting abilities, the same is not so true about divine classes. Furthermore (and no disrespect to the previous posters), but I question any advice that is based around the assumption that a monk is a Wis based build.
Wis works out to be no better or worse then Dex for a monk (both add to AC, 1 save, and a bunch of skills). Sure, you can sacrifice Dex for Wis (which would buff your divine casting too), but the only real benefit you get from it is purely defensive.
I STRONGLY suggest reading Treantmonk's guide to monk optimization. Even if you end up building your monk differently, I think the bits about optimizing damage output are essential for any monk build to be successful. To shorthand the guide it pretty much breaks down to 3 things:
- Str > Wis or Dex
- If you aren't flurrying, you're doing it wrong
- Power Attack is not just a suggestion, but essential to success
As for your original question, to give you other suggestions to my original DD build...
If you want to go the route of divine caster for the tattoo activation, I'd suggest: Pally > Oracle > Cleric. Again, since there are no PrCs to help you bump both classes simultaneously you have to look for divine casters that also help your combat abilities.
If you buddy doesn't like the dragon flavor of DD, you can accomplish similar ends through EK instead. The problem is that unless you GM is willing to house rule it, you'd need a 3rd class to make it work. I'd suggest going Sorc 1, Fighter 1, Monk 4 (yes I know you could qualify at Monk 3, you want Ki Strike though) into EK. The big benefit here is that you'll eventually be able to pick up Weapon Spec for your fists.
Again, trying to balance combat ability progression with gaining spell ability, you could multiclass into rogue and snag the minor/major magic talents. Of all the other solutions, this feels the most "kludgey" to me, but there simply aren't a ton of options for waht you want to do with core material only.
Hummm.... magic items that don't take up a slot on the body costs double.Can you reference a page number for me so I can use this? This could be a very good way to go!
Page in question is page 550 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, table 15-29: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values. The Scroll Base Cost table is on page 552. I think the best way that could work out is the base cost of the spell, double that and then Charges Per Day formula, which is Cost divided by (5 divided by charges per day), giving the character a chance to dictate how often their Tattoos can be useable per day.
Beware the DM might rule that you might get slugged with the Multiple DIfferent Abilities formula given that the 'body' is the item that is being enchanted here, if the spells you dictate as wanting as tattoos end up having different effects, such as enhancing your AC, Flight, Healing etc etc.
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I STRONGLY suggest reading Treantmonk's guide to monk optimization. Even if you end up building your monk differently, I think the bits about optimizing damage output are essential for any monk build to be successful. To shorthand the guide it pretty much breaks down to 3 things:
- Str > Wis or Dex
- If you aren't flurrying, you're doing it wrong
- Power Attack is not just a suggestion, but essential to success
All this, depends on how you define being "successful". If you want to maximize your damage and do massive amounts like a fighter, then be a fighter. Otherwise, the monk is more of a combat support guy: he can do decent damage, but he can also move very quickly around the battlefield, getting past bad guys with acrobatics, setting up flanks, etc. Combine that movement with a cleric's healing ability, and you've got a potent member of your party.
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Also, @Vult: I did look through some stuff last night and found a cool spell from (I think) the Pathfinder Companion that had the entry about Riddleport. It was like the first or second Companion. Anyway, there was a spell that allowed stuff to be transferred to the users skin as a tattoo. Not much, but maybe it'll help.
The Monk/Cleric could be a decent build (though not one I've tried. My main concern is that while there are arcane hybrid PrCs to continue boosting both your melee capabilities and your casting abilities, the same is not so true about divine classes. Furthermore (and no disrespect to the previous posters), but I question any advice that is based around the assumption that a monk is a Wis based build.
Wis works out to be no better or worse then Dex for a monk (both add to AC, 1 save, and a bunch of skills). Sure, you can sacrifice Dex for Wis (which would buff your divine casting too), but the only real benefit you get from it is purely defensive.
I STRONGLY suggest reading Treantmonk's guide to monk optimization. Even if you end up building your monk differently, I think the bits about optimizing damage output are essential for any monk build to be successful. To shorthand the guide it pretty much breaks down to 3 things:
- Str > Wis or Dex
- If you aren't flurrying, you're doing it wrong
- Power Attack is not just a suggestion, but essential to success
As for your original question, to give you other suggestions to my original DD build...
If you want to go the route of divine caster for the tattoo activation, I'd suggest: Pally > Oracle > Cleric. Again, since there are no PrCs to help you bump both classes simultaneously you have to look for divine casters that also help your combat abilities.
If you buddy doesn't like the dragon flavor of DD, you can accomplish similar ends through EK instead. The problem is that unless you GM is willing to house rule it, you'd need a 3rd class to make it work. I'd suggest going Sorc 1, Fighter 1, Monk 4 (yes I know you could qualify at Monk 3, you want Ki Strike though) into EK. The big benefit here is that you'll eventually be able to pick up Weapon Spec for your fists.
Again, trying to balance combat ability progression...
Umm ... Wis = Stun DC determination.
Wis = AC boost, save, and skills
Stunning fist = usable w/flurry
Stunned opponent + gorgon's fist, etc = ALL KINDS OF BEAT DOWN.
Conclusion ... No. Wis is not "less important" period. It's right up there on account of the utility of stunning the CRAP out of enemies on the field. Causing targets to lose their Dex to AC bonus, going flat footed, and losing an action = NEVER a poor choice in tactics. The higher you pump the Wis of the monk, not ONLY does he become harder to hit, he ALSO becomes more likely to stun the enemies that are within reach of him.
Thank you all for the advice. I have read Treantmonk's guide and it is very informative. Though I do agree that Wis is an important stat for Monks ill let the player decide what he think in that respect. Basically if he decides wis is important I will advise him towards monk/cleric if not then possibly sorc/cleric.
The big issue is how much do you focus on each. But again, that will depend on how much the play wants to be melee focused or spell focused. Hopefully ill get together with him today and discuss these very issues.
Again, thank you all very much I will look over all the ideas suggested. If anyone else comes up with another angle please add it here.
My suggestion is go the tattoos = magic item route. Monk is a very difficult class to multiclass in without suffering from your abilities loosing their impact at higher levels. a 1 level dip into monk is decent for the saves and the abilities for if you were captured and stripped of equipment, BUT if you want to have a character who does not wear armor and uses his fists as weapons effectively throughout the character's career, a 1 level dip in monk is not going to do it.
If you split evenly with another class, your flurry (the monk's main attack) is going to be very weak as its attack bonus will be behind by several level. Its possible that cleric spells might help you bring it back up a bit but I don't think it will be enough to match what you would have had with straight monk levels.
So my suggestion to you is the master craftsman feat. It would allow you ti make tattoos as wondrous items without the need to have spellcasting. At 3rd level take craft wondrous item, and start dumping gold into your skin.
Ok, I met with my buddy and found out I was a little off on what he wanted his character to do. He wants a support character based on a tatooed monk idea that can heal and buff the group while getting into position to aid and help with flanking.
We immediately went with Cleric and he picked the good and healing domains. He is 2 lvls of monk and 4 lvls of cleric.
I am new to making a dual class character so it took me some time. I think I got his BAB correct at +4 but I am not sure what his base saves should be (could someone reference a page number that tells me how to figure those) I put them at base 5/4/5 but im not sure if that is right.
From talking with him and figuring out what he wanted I think we came up with a pretty good character. With his acrobatics he will be able to get around the battlefield very well and when he gets one more level of monk he will get 10 extra feet of movement that will help a lot.
Thank you all again for the advise, if you have anymore please feel free to post.