Design Manager
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You're a little late to the game on this one, but yeah, that's a pretty big feature of firearms. A lot of people have had arguments over whether the slow reload speed and smaller range of the firearm balances against the ability to hit critters like an ancient red dragon on anything but a 1, but....
That's assuming you want to be within the firearm's 1st range increment when facing a dragon. :P
But yes this would work. You might hit every time (Adult Blue Dragon AC: 28, Touch: 8), but it still has DR and most firearm's can't get the damage as high as a fighter with a 2-handed weapon power attacking with a +10 to damage from str, feats, etc.
Well Cluster Shot and Deadly Aim probably work wonders.
Okay you're right, I didn't even know about Cluster Shot, that's nuts. That would make a Manyshot, Rapid Shot, compound bow ranger (or fighter) freaking super deadly. Is there a melee equivalent to what Cluster Shot does?
Though I think even with that, because firearms do no get a stat to damage and there short range, that attack versus touch isn't too powerful, though with the correct feat (and level) they can be quite deadly, as with any other weapon/feat combo.
Though I think even with that, because firearms do no get a stat to damage and there short range, that attack versus touch isn't too powerful, though with the correct feat (and level) they can be quite deadly, as with any other weapon/feat combo.
Gunslingers add Dex to damage via Gun Training.
That said, I believe standard archers tend towards parity in damage with guns if not outright dominating them on pure DPR.
DR on big dragons helps vs the firearms (which are generally pretty slow reloading unless you have advanced firearms and a heavy investment in gunslinger deeds). Yeah magic is relatively easy DR to pass but it can definitely help especially against massed firearms.
Like others have said, most gun user builds are going to lag on DPR vs an archer build so it's really not that big of a deal.
Personally I think guns should probably be used in conjunction with the alternative armor as DR and class defense options. This tends to reduce some of the impact of the gun on the game because while ACs in general are lower touch ACs are generally higher.
Gunslingers add Dex to damage via Gun Training.
Thanks for the clarification Poldaran, I haven't played Gunslinger, or had a PC to get up to level 5 yet, so I haven't really look at them too closely.
Personally I think guns should probably be used in conjunction with the alternative armor as DR and class defense options. This tends to reduce some of the impact of the gun on the game because while ACs in general are lower touch ACs are generally higher.
I know the Armor as DR rules, but where can I find class defense?
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Design Manager
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DR on big dragons helps vs the firearms (which are generally pretty slow reloading unless you have advanced firearms and a heavy investment in gunslinger deeds). Yeah magic is relatively easy DR to pass but it can definitely help especially against massed firearms.
Like others have said, most gun user builds are going to lag on DPR vs an archer build so it's really not that big of a deal.
"Many" gun user builds will lag, but the most common ones destroy archery DPR. By expending some resource, a gunslinger using Paper Cartridges and Rapid Reload can full attack at normal speed. You slap on Deadly Aim and enchantments, not to mention Gun Training which archers don't have any comparative ability for, and you actually start pulling ahead of most archers. If you build a gunslinger to be a TWF Pistolero, you start blowing the archer away in most situations. Since the Gunslinger has a full BAB and targets touch AC, after about 10th or 12th level he can easily afford to take the -4 for TWF, the hit for Deadly Aim, and even the hit for firing both barrels of a double-barreled pistol simultaneously and still have as good a chance to hit as any other creature, potentially taking out an appropriate CR+2 creature in a single round. Which is ridiculous.
I know the Armor as DR rules, but where can I find class defense?
Personally I think guns should probably be used in conjunction with the alternative armor as DR and class defense options. This tends to reduce some of the impact of the gun on the game because while ACs in general are lower touch ACs are generally higher.
In PF Defense under an Armor as DR system is the following:
10 + Shield Bonus + Dex Modifier + Armor Enhancement Bonus (but not armor bonus or natural armor) + other modifiers (typically stuff like sacred or profane bonuses).
However you could also use the class defense options form 3.5 Unearthed Arcana where classes get a level based adjustment to defense based upon their BAB that isn't compatible with the regular armor and enhancement bonus.
This seems to work well with the light or no armor model encouraged by swashbuckling gunslingers (think something like three musketeers).
It also has the added bonus of removing the need to spend extensively to boost your AC through magical armor bonuses.
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Design Manager
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***However you could also use the class defense options form 3.5 Unearthed Arcana where classes get a level based adjustment to defense based upon their BAB that isn't compatible with the regular armor and enhancement bonus.
This seems to work well with the light or no armor model encouraged by swashbuckling gunslingers (think something like three musketeers).
It also has the added bonus of removing the need to spend extensively to boost your AC through magical armor bonuses.
I remember that option, and I recall liking it. Wasn't it the basis for the AC system they ended up using in Star Wars Saga Edition?
"Many" gun user builds will lag, but the most common ones destroy archery DPR. By expending some resource, a gunslinger using Paper Cartridges and Rapid Reload can full attack at normal speed. You slap on Deadly Aim and enchantments, not to mention Gun Training which archers don't have any comparative ability for, and you actually start pulling ahead of most archers. If you build a gunslinger to be a TWF Pistolero, you start blowing the archer away in most situations. Since the Gunslinger has a full BAB and targets touch AC, after about 10th or 12th level he can easily afford to take the -4 for TWF, the hit for Deadly Aim, and even the hit for firing both barrels of a double-barreled pistol simultaneously and still have as good a chance to hit as any other creature, potentially taking out an appropriate CR+2 creature in a single round. Which is ridiculous.
I don't think that advanced firearms with alchemical cartridges are the default assumption though.
And at a certain point of tech usage it would make sense for advanced firearms especially with rapid loading to supplant archery as the dominant ranged weapon technology.
Not that TWF pistoleros aren't a dangerous build but I don't think they are awe inspiring given the average campaign assumptions (early and rare firearms).
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Design Manager
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I don't think that advanced firearms with alchemical cartridges are the default assumption though.
And at a certain point of tech usage it would make sense for advanced firearms especially with rapid loading to supplant archery as the dominant ranged weapon technology.
Not that TWF pistoleros aren't a dangerous build but I don't think they are awe inspiring given the average campaign assumptions (early and rare firearms).
A standard pistol reloads as a free action when one has Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges. The Gunslinger gains Craft as a class skill and is capable of creating his own Alchemical cartridges. Firing as a free action is something that any 1st level Gunslinger who takes Rapid Reload is capable of doing (albeit at a fairly high cost per round in gold), assuming he is using a one-handed firearm. The Pistolero archetype widens this gap further by being able to apply his feats and abilities (normally restricted to only a single specific firearm type) to any one-handed weapon he picks up, making it simplicity itself to upgrade to a double-barreled pistol once he's tucked away some cash. The Nimble class feature helps to compensate for this loss of funds by allowing the GS to lag a step or two behind his fellow party members in armor enchantments.
You slap on Deadly Aim and enchantments, not to mention Gun Training which archers don't have any comparative ability for, and you actually start pulling ahead of most archers.
The extra feats of a fighter thrown into something like Weapon Specialization plus a composite bow should fairly easily compensate for that. I'm pretty sure that guns also don't get Manyshot, which is pretty nice too. And, of course, there's also Weapon Training.
Also, don't you need some kind of extra limb or some other gimmick to reload two simultaneously wielded pistols?
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Design Manager
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You slap on Deadly Aim and enchantments, not to mention Gun Training which archers don't have any comparative ability for, and you actually start pulling ahead of most archers.The extra feats of a fighter thrown into something like Weapon Specialization plus a composite bow should fairly easily compensate for that. I'm pretty sure that guns also don't get Manyshot, which is pretty nice too. And, of course, there's also Weapon Training.
Also, don't you need some kind of extra limb or some other gimmick to reload two simultaneously wielded pistols?
There's half a dozen different ways to finagle the reloading while dual-wielding pistols. Weapon-straps (or whatever they're called, I think they're in UC) or the Glove of Storing seem to be the favorite work-arounds. Gunslingers can also take fighter levels, so Weapon Specialization doesn't necessarily apply to just bows (and still doesn't come even remotely close to equaling the benefits of Gun Training), and Manyshot also doesn't come even remotely close to evening out the benefit of being able to dual wield. The bow guys biggest advantages are range, and having only one weapon to enchant, but as noted earlier, the Nimble class ability of the Gunslinger allows him to shift some of the expense of his weapons out of the funds that would normally be spent on armor.
The Gunslinger also gets nearly half a dozen bonus feats, plus the various (and sometimes stupidly powerful) abilities granted by Grit.I personally prefer archers to Gunslingers, but you can't really pretend that the damage is even remotely the same after about 8th level. The archer starts out with a bit of an edge, but that edge starts fading at 5th level and has disappeared completely by 10th, when the Gunslinger pulls solidly ahead and just stays there. It gets even worse (at least as far as pure DPR) if you have a multi-class Fighter/Gunslinger combining Weapon Training with Gun Training.
I've been under the impression that gunslingers eventually get far higher damage at low ranges (say <100 ft) but that archers still win out at longer ranges, as long as sane perception rules are used (if RAW perception rules are used any kind of ranged weapon is kind of useless).
It depends on how you handle your fluff. In average standard fantasy settings with dragons and what not, gunslingers aren't welcome. My purely D&Desque fantasy worlds are set in something akin to the dark ages, where the gun doesn't exist.
In games where I allow gunslingers, the relative timeline puts them at Renaissance and more modern, and in those settings, dragons do not exist.
So basically in my worlds gunslingers and dragons never exist at the same time. So this problem you bring up, doesn't exist - at least not in my games.
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Design Manager
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I've been under the impression that gunslingers eventually get far higher damage at low ranges (say <100 ft) but that archers still win out at longer ranges, as long as sane perception rules are used (if RAW perception rules are used any kind of ranged weapon is kind of useless).
Archers do typically win out over long distances, but if your group uses a playmat, watch how often you actually play on a field that's much more than 12x12 squares. I know that in the majority of PFS modules, you'll never see a map where the archer's range advantage ever comes into play. Archery seems to be much more beneficial in theater of the mind play sessions, or in home sessions where the GM likes big maps.
I've been under the impression that gunslingers eventually get far higher damage at low ranges (say <100 ft) but that archers still win out at longer ranges, as long as sane perception rules are used (if RAW perception rules are used any kind of ranged weapon is kind of useless).Archers do typically win out over long distances, but if your group uses a playmat, watch how often you actually play on a field that's much more than 12x12 squares. I know that in the majority of PFS modules, you'll never see a map where the archer's range advantage ever comes into play. Archery seems to be much more beneficial in theater of the mind play sessions, or in home sessions where the GM likes big maps.
We don't usually use a playmat (though we often draw up relative positions), among other things due to that. I don't like the idea of telling the archer/fireball wizard that it can't start putting down the smack on the enemies within range just because they won't fit on the mat. Though of course, you can't always start attacking your enemy at that distance based on the environment.
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Design Manager
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It depends on how you handle your fluff. In average standard fantasy settings with dragons and what not, gunslingers aren't welcome. My purely D&Desque fantasy worlds are set in something akin to the dark ages, where the gun doesn't exist.
In games where I allow gunslingers, the relative timeline puts them at Renaissance and more modern, and in those settings, dragons do not exist.
So basically in my worlds gunslingers and dragons never exist at the same time. So this problem you bring up, doesn't exist - at least not in my games.
I occasionally struggle with the whole dragons-and-guns-existing-simultaneously thing as well. Our group are big fans of the Eberron Campaign Setting though, and it seems to house gunslingers and dragons quite comfortably within the same campaign, so we bump into the problem occasionally. Fortunately my group is typically much more interested in building the story and working together cooperatively, so it's rare that a character build that doesn't fall within a certain level of balance with the rest of the party sticks around for long. Most Gunslingers in our campaigns tend to be somewhat more athletic parallels to the alchemist, crafty inventors with an unusual gimmick and some unexpected tricks.
It seems like a lot of people here don't know how old guns really are!
According to wikipedia, guns started showing up around 700 AD, which is quite some times ago.
Maybe it doesn't count because it was happening in china though?
Most D&D settings are based on europe, not china.
And for the record, I think guns and dragons together is pretty badass
I've been under the impression that gunslingers eventually get far higher damage at low ranges (say <100 ft) but that archers still win out at longer ranges, as long as sane perception rules are used (if RAW perception rules are used any kind of ranged weapon is kind of useless).
Gun users have the advantage of the close range AC counter (sure i'm in the murder zone but I'm guaranteed to hit!) vs an archers range (Good luck I'm 5 rounds away!) Also (for some reason) guns can't go past range increment 5 while bows can go the full 10 (advanced firearms can also go the full 10, but everyone HATES GUNS IN THEIR FANTASUH)
Also, 15 levels of pisterelo gunslinger, 1 level of wild rager barbarian, buy 10 dual barrel pistols on weapon cords, boots of haste, clustered shots, rapid shot, hammer the gap, and all 3 TWF feats. The target in front of you just took 20 bullets to the face all as 1 source of damage.
It seems like a lot of people here don't know how old guns really are!
According to wikipedia, guns started showing up around 700 AD, which is quite some times ago.
Maybe it doesn't count because it was happening in china though?
China used gunpowder mostly as rockets in war, and not the gun per se, until much later, though it was invented at that time.
For Europe and Japan, the gun didn't become prolific until after 1400.
That said flavor-wise guns seem too modern for my games. I allow them for the right theme, not all my PF play.
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HERE is a comparison of One-Handed vs TWF pistolero builds. At 13th level a TWF pistolero is pumping out 409.42 DPR against an average Touch AC 14... Imagine what he'd do against your typical Adult Blue Dragon (CR 13) with touch 8...
Though it still comes at the price of range, a pistolero/musket master grows extremely powerful after 13th level due to no misfire chance. Even a Single Weapon Pistolero deals 291.42 DPR, more than enough to single handedly reduce a 184 hp blue dragon to ash (no pun intended ;)
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For Europe and Japan, the gun didn't become prolific until after 1400.
If we're talking timeline and history, it bears mentioning that after 1400 is about the same time true full plate armor was starting to become a common feature on the battlefields of Europe (as opposed to the coat-of-plates/brigandine that was used before then). Half-Plate is even newer than that, dating to the 16th century when plate armor was starting to fade out of fashion.
Heck, the term "bulletproof" has it origins in the way late medieval armorsmiths would prove how good their armor was by demonstrating that it could stop a point-blank pistol shot.
One can reject guns by saying you don't like the flavor of them existing, but from a strictly historical perspective early guns fit just fine with plenty of other things that already exist in Pathfinder/D&D.
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Ignore the two-handed pistolero builds people talk about that do ridiculous DPR; that's not how anyone should make a character.
I have to tell you that in practice, a fairly standard gunslinger build does enormous amounts of damage per round no matter what you do.
I actually decided to avoid the Snap Shot chain of feats in order to make my character be less overpowered as well as a little bit different than the standard.
It'd probably be an interesting challenge for someone to try and do as little damage as they possibly can with a gunslinger over a course of time. It'd be tough.
